The Mail Bag
So, the Loop is too small?
Comments (14)
In its planning submission to Kirkby, Everton Football Club and Tesco's have "confirmed" that the Loop is not only too small, but could only be fit for a 35,000 stadium.
Given all the anti-Kirkby articles on ths site, I am a bit surprised that we haven't had at least 4 articles demonstrating why such a statement is nonsense.
More important for me is that I am still waiting for our saviours from Bestway, and of course Council Leader Warren (don't blame me) Bradley, to respond.
Should make some interesting reading over the coming week.
Ajamu Mutumwa, Posted 07/01/2008 at 07:39:18
Comments
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Colm Kavanagh
This "confirmation" from the club that the Loop could only fit a stadium with a 35,000 capacity - it's about as relevant as the claims that Kirkby will be "effectively free", "world class" and "UEFA 5 star" standard, as constantly we were informed during the summer months, as both the club and Tesco hid behind this ridiculous smokescreen of exclusivity. Now that the plan is in the public domain we see that they are planning a mid-range stadium with basic (their own wording) facilities.
Erik Dols
1 Posted 07/01/2008 at 09:13:19
1 Posted 07/01/2008 at 09:13:19
It’s this kind of misinformation dat annoys me.
If they say something like "building a larger stadium at the loop-site will almost certainly lead to very high costs because of the roads that have to be bridged etc and we do not have that kind of money nor do we expect to raise it" I would at least give them credit for being honest.
If they say something like "building a larger stadium at the loop-site will almost certainly lead to very high costs because of the roads that have to be bridged etc and we do not have that kind of money nor do we expect to raise it" I would at least give them credit for being honest.
Brian Waring
2 Posted 07/01/2008 at 09:33:33
2 Posted 07/01/2008 at 09:33:33
Erik, Everton Football Club and honesty don?t go togethor.
Phil Martin
3 Posted 07/01/2008 at 09:57:59
3 Posted 07/01/2008 at 09:57:59
What disappoints me if most. Is that our new Kirkby stadium will be a boring, run of the mill designed building- and only 50,000 in capacity.
When clubs like Arsenal, Rangers, Liverpool, Newcastle and West Ham all moving (or seriously consiering) to Inspiring, unique 60-70,000 seater satdiums.
Why are we settled on 50 with not a single ounce of character?
Yes at thhis moment in time we only get 37,000 a week on average. But if we are gearing ourselves for success then surely we should be preparing for a big increase in tickets should we become successful. 55 -60,000 should be the miniumum requirement.
As for the loop being too small. What a load of bull. Its just a little more expensive. Money the club wont spend on it’s most important financial asset and probably the most important thing it will ever purchase.
When clubs like Arsenal, Rangers, Liverpool, Newcastle and West Ham all moving (or seriously consiering) to Inspiring, unique 60-70,000 seater satdiums.
Why are we settled on 50 with not a single ounce of character?
Yes at thhis moment in time we only get 37,000 a week on average. But if we are gearing ourselves for success then surely we should be preparing for a big increase in tickets should we become successful. 55 -60,000 should be the miniumum requirement.
As for the loop being too small. What a load of bull. Its just a little more expensive. Money the club wont spend on it’s most important financial asset and probably the most important thing it will ever purchase.
Dean Johnson
4 Posted 07/01/2008 at 10:29:57
4 Posted 07/01/2008 at 10:29:57
It?s too small to accommodate all the money making businesses that will be required in order for it to be a success financially. That?s it.
Gerard Madden
5 Posted 07/01/2008 at 10:49:31
5 Posted 07/01/2008 at 10:49:31
So who do we believe? A small cash ’n carry and an invisible ’report’ that says an unextendable 48-55,000 stadium can fit in a certain amount of acreage and a small motley crew of remaining ’no’s.
My moneys on the people who worked with HOK at the Emirates and New Wembley and who are experts on crowd flow, transport and evacuation capacities - they say the site is too small and can hold a maximum of 30-35,000, once again HOK ’allegedly’ saying they can fit an unextendable 48-55,000 seater on a certain amount of acreage is irrelevent.
Still waiting for some quotes off a leading HOK Sports UK figure on anything to do with the ’loop’ - I won’t be holding my breath...
My moneys on the people who worked with HOK at the Emirates and New Wembley and who are experts on crowd flow, transport and evacuation capacities - they say the site is too small and can hold a maximum of 30-35,000, once again HOK ’allegedly’ saying they can fit an unextendable 48-55,000 seater on a certain amount of acreage is irrelevent.
Still waiting for some quotes off a leading HOK Sports UK figure on anything to do with the ’loop’ - I won’t be holding my breath...
Paul Gladwell
6 Posted 07/01/2008 at 11:04:57
6 Posted 07/01/2008 at 11:04:57
The wind up merchant returns.
I asked you for facts on the so-called small amount of No people about, as I said 10,000
voted No ? some 5,000 less than Yes, whilst 10,000 never voted for whatever reason and thousands of others were not allowed to vote at all.
Is that such a small minority? Not to mention people like my mate who qualified to vote but just never recieved a form.
Yes, the Yes vote won, end of... but don't come on here claiming the pubs and ground on a saturday are awash with Yes voters as they are not.
Everyone has an idea it's a close call but you.
I asked you for facts on the so-called small amount of No people about, as I said 10,000
voted No ? some 5,000 less than Yes, whilst 10,000 never voted for whatever reason and thousands of others were not allowed to vote at all.
Is that such a small minority? Not to mention people like my mate who qualified to vote but just never recieved a form.
Yes, the Yes vote won, end of... but don't come on here claiming the pubs and ground on a saturday are awash with Yes voters as they are not.
Everyone has an idea it's a close call but you.
Micky Norman
7 Posted 07/01/2008 at 10:55:29
7 Posted 07/01/2008 at 10:55:29
Phil, whilst basically agreeing with your points there are a couple of things which I think you should also consider. What makes a new stadium anything other than a boring lump of steel and concrete is surely what goes on inside it - football and atmoshere and its links to the history of the club. If you want all unobstructed views and a good atmosphere this is as good as it gets. Try and get some video of any games at the Koln stadium. Its a lot better than most new places. The clubs you mention above are all in financially different circumstances to us-rich sugar daddies help don’t they? As for potential capacity, at the present cost of attending matches I think we are doing brilliant to keep our attendances where they have been over the last few years, especially considering the poor football seen at Goodison during Smith’s (and a fair bit of Moyes’) time.Even if we suddenly start to play champagne football and win trophies I can’t see us attracting the number of good time charlies and fans from outside the city (not necessarily the same thing) which it would take to go over 50k week after week.The number of people who actually go to the match (us or RS) from the city and area is already pretty high compared to other cities of comparable size. To improve our attendances by say 15k we would have to seriously eat into the support of clubs like ManU, RS and others. I can’t see this happening unless we are massively successful. i would much rather sit in a full 50k stadium watching a great winning team than sit in a half full 70k ground watching crap.All this sounds like I’m all pro Kirkby but i’m really not. IF we had the money, IF the RS were not being allowed to disgracefully move into the park, IF we could rebuild Goodison to a fantastic spec then there’s no way I’d be writing this. I voted no- but if we do get a new ground its going to be Kirkby so I’m learning to live with it.
Chris James
8 Posted 07/01/2008 at 12:59:20
8 Posted 07/01/2008 at 12:59:20
Without wanting to go over old ground again! ....With regard to the final standard and style of the proposed Kirkby stadium it is telling that all the various links, traffic plans etc that have been published to support the move compare the prospective development to new builds at Bolton, Reading, Middlesbrough, Coventry etc.
Which, in my experience, is a list of the LEAST favourite grounds of most Blues.
It does rather beg the question why we are proposing spending tens, possibly hundreds, of millions of pounds building a ground that most of us will hate?
Which, in my experience, is a list of the LEAST favourite grounds of most Blues.
It does rather beg the question why we are proposing spending tens, possibly hundreds, of millions of pounds building a ground that most of us will hate?
Mark Pendleton
9 Posted 07/01/2008 at 13:10:43
9 Posted 07/01/2008 at 13:10:43
Personally, if that’s a "mid-range" stadium then i’m happy. I prefer the more traditional stadium look. "High range" seems to be some horrid dome shape with a ridiculous arty feature that will probably be seen as hideous in a few years.
In terms of us "only" getting 37,000 fans each home game, once you take into account that alot depends on away fans, then you deduct the amount of restricted view seats that are simply a joke (i’ve sat near to the back of Lower Gwladys fairly recently and whenever the ball went near EITHER goal mouth and the fans stood up in front of me i coudn’t see the pitch!) then we really do virtually sell out for most games.
It’s so difficult to buy a ticket where you’re guaranteed a good view as with third party sellers like Ticketmaster or online you can’t ask for a specific area, just a block or section. I also had a terrible time shortly after the Man City tickets went on general sale to get two seats together.
We need a new stadium.
I LOVE Goodison but it can’t be economically developed (common sense tells that, you don’t need an expert survey).
I like the proposed Kirkby design.
In terms of us "only" getting 37,000 fans each home game, once you take into account that alot depends on away fans, then you deduct the amount of restricted view seats that are simply a joke (i’ve sat near to the back of Lower Gwladys fairly recently and whenever the ball went near EITHER goal mouth and the fans stood up in front of me i coudn’t see the pitch!) then we really do virtually sell out for most games.
It’s so difficult to buy a ticket where you’re guaranteed a good view as with third party sellers like Ticketmaster or online you can’t ask for a specific area, just a block or section. I also had a terrible time shortly after the Man City tickets went on general sale to get two seats together.
We need a new stadium.
I LOVE Goodison but it can’t be economically developed (common sense tells that, you don’t need an expert survey).
I like the proposed Kirkby design.
Gerard Madden
10 Posted 07/01/2008 at 15:20:08
10 Posted 07/01/2008 at 15:20:08
Chris James - How can you possibly get away with saying "It does rather beg the question why we are proposing spending tens, possibly hundreds, of millions of pounds building a ground that MOST OF US will hate?
’Most of us’ - you’ll have the web gestapo onto you for uttering that! Actually you won’t because its long been alright for ’no’ voters to say things like the ’most of us’ - it’s only lil’ ol’ me that people have a problem with using them terms despite me having the ’facts’ and numbers of fellow blues on my side as in the ballot and the continuing lack of any bitter atmosphere and protests over the move at our games.
’Most of us’ - you’ll have the web gestapo onto you for uttering that! Actually you won’t because its long been alright for ’no’ voters to say things like the ’most of us’ - it’s only lil’ ol’ me that people have a problem with using them terms despite me having the ’facts’ and numbers of fellow blues on my side as in the ballot and the continuing lack of any bitter atmosphere and protests over the move at our games.
Phil Martin
11 Posted 07/01/2008 at 15:44:11
11 Posted 07/01/2008 at 15:44:11
Micky,
I accept your point about the money etc. But when Everton were succesful in the 80s they got crowds of 50-60000 (depending on wether you believe the offical attendances). Football is more popular now than it is then. I do feel that with sustained success there are many more ’local’ supporters who may justify spending a small fortune on going the match regularly. I dont believe we have to steal fans from RS or Man U - or even attract football tourists too boost are attendances. When EFC brought the FA cup back to merseyside there were 250,000 fans on the streets of Liverpool waiting to see the team bus.
Should we become successful i feel we would hit the 50,000 roof very quickly. Surely an extra 5-10,000 would be so much better?
Also as for the Kirkby Stadium designs. Yes once again money dictates. However building a bigger version of the characterless JJB or Madjeski. How can that be good for EFC. Yes fundementally a building is just bricks but you cant argue that some enhance the atmosphere and others just dont. The Kirkby stadium is the dullest of the dull. Symmetrical and totally forgetable.
This club demands more.
I accept your point about the money etc. But when Everton were succesful in the 80s they got crowds of 50-60000 (depending on wether you believe the offical attendances). Football is more popular now than it is then. I do feel that with sustained success there are many more ’local’ supporters who may justify spending a small fortune on going the match regularly. I dont believe we have to steal fans from RS or Man U - or even attract football tourists too boost are attendances. When EFC brought the FA cup back to merseyside there were 250,000 fans on the streets of Liverpool waiting to see the team bus.
Should we become successful i feel we would hit the 50,000 roof very quickly. Surely an extra 5-10,000 would be so much better?
Also as for the Kirkby Stadium designs. Yes once again money dictates. However building a bigger version of the characterless JJB or Madjeski. How can that be good for EFC. Yes fundementally a building is just bricks but you cant argue that some enhance the atmosphere and others just dont. The Kirkby stadium is the dullest of the dull. Symmetrical and totally forgetable.
This club demands more.
Kevin Mitchell
12 Posted 07/01/2008 at 22:45:19
12 Posted 07/01/2008 at 22:45:19
The thought of relocating to Kirkby makes me feel ill for all the reasons that have been discussed over and over again on this site over the last 6 months.
The pro Kirkby voters to a man seem to think this move will bring instant success of playing champions league football against the likes of "Barcelona" in front of 50,000 evertonians every season.
Your all living on another planet, and if we move to the countryside we might as well be playing on another planet.
The pro Kirkby voters to a man seem to think this move will bring instant success of playing champions league football against the likes of "Barcelona" in front of 50,000 evertonians every season.
Your all living on another planet, and if we move to the countryside we might as well be playing on another planet.
Chris James
13 Posted 08/01/2008 at 10:08:41
13 Posted 08/01/2008 at 10:08:41
Sorry Gerard. The ’most of us’ comment referred to my point that the main stadiums used as comparisons for the project were stadiums that were popularly derided amongst Everton fans - mostly for the souless nature of their location (eg Reading. Middlesbrough, Bolton) as much as their architecture.
I still think that most Everton fans detest these grounds and view attending these grounds as being a chore to be endured.
However, I agree that many Everton fans seem okay with us building ourselves a new stadium with simliar access problems and on an equally souless trading estate.
I still think that most Everton fans detest these grounds and view attending these grounds as being a chore to be endured.
However, I agree that many Everton fans seem okay with us building ourselves a new stadium with simliar access problems and on an equally souless trading estate.
Gavin Ramejkis
14 Posted 08/01/2008 at 15:32:03
14 Posted 08/01/2008 at 15:32:03
Dean Johnson I have said this before in response on another thread - the businesses surrounding a stadium UNLESS owned by that club have NOTHING whatsoever to do with it’s income, they are distinct individual business entities and do not have to share profits with the club, the only other reason they would generate an income for the club would be as tenants on the club’s land, neither of which are likely.
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