The Mail Bag
City of Culture? An Outsider's View
Comments (23)
I was in Manchester city centre today where they give away the Manchester Evening News, so I took one to read their match report on the bus. A reasonable account by Chris Bailey, given his home town bias and the readers he was writing for. But what jumped out at me was what he said about Goodison, after some stuff about the City of Culture 'celebration'.
"It is hard to see where this old ground, ragged around the edges but still much loved by its patrons, fits into the 12-month celebration of all that is enlightening, enriching and civilising about Merseyside.
Goodison is something of a working museum these days, cramped and squashed in the same way that Maine Road used to be.
It's hardly surprising that the Everton hierarchy are keen to move to a state of the art stadium and those who oppose the switch - and there are traditionalists clinging to the memories forged in the Gladwys Street end - should look at the rise and rise of City in terms of income, crowds and now success on the pitch since they left their former home to realise moving is a catalyst for invigoration."
I think he missed the bit about sending your wife home to face corruption charges when he got onto success on the pitch, and the money that has cost.
For myself ? like every Evertonian I can imagine ? if Goodison could be redeveloped to be what we need, perfect. But that's not going to happen. So perhaps the thoughts of someone who, as far as I know, has got no interest in the matter, might add to our thoughts on the subject.
Keith Glazzard, Posted 14/01/2008 at 20:39:04
Comments
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
2 Posted 14/01/2008 at 21:27:42
Editorial Team
2 Posted 14/01/2008 at 21:27:42
It should be noted that before Sven stepped in — i.e. when City were doing pretty badly last season — many of their fans were bemoaning the City of Manchester stadium for its acute lack of atmosphere.
I suspect the change in attitude towards it has a lot to do with City’s unbeaten home record there in the League this season and that’s fine. But the one of the overriding concerns with the proposed Kirkby Stadium — which Everton’s own planning application describes as "mid-level", not world class — is whether we’re going to be able to fill it and have any kind of atmosphere when the team isn’t doing well.
And Paul, it’s going to take an awfully long time to remove the additional "huge debt" it’s going to take to build the Kirkby stadium let along pay off the debt we already have, particularly if it only brings in "up to £10m" a season. That would be the case with any new ground but let’s not assume that Kirkby is this panacea to our current financial situation.
I suspect the change in attitude towards it has a lot to do with City’s unbeaten home record there in the League this season and that’s fine. But the one of the overriding concerns with the proposed Kirkby Stadium — which Everton’s own planning application describes as "mid-level", not world class — is whether we’re going to be able to fill it and have any kind of atmosphere when the team isn’t doing well.
And Paul, it’s going to take an awfully long time to remove the additional "huge debt" it’s going to take to build the Kirkby stadium let along pay off the debt we already have, particularly if it only brings in "up to £10m" a season. That would be the case with any new ground but let’s not assume that Kirkby is this panacea to our current financial situation.
Mick Mc
3 Posted 14/01/2008 at 21:45:37
3 Posted 14/01/2008 at 21:45:37
Got to agree. I work with a City fan and when City were piss poor last season, he used to moan about the stadium and not actually owning it. But now he?s made up and wont shut up about how lucky they are to have got Sven and and a brand new world class stadium. It?s a strange game, how it makes people forgetful.
Ste Birkett
4 Posted 14/01/2008 at 22:16:25
4 Posted 14/01/2008 at 22:16:25
It is good to read someone’s impartial view but it fails to register that Kirkby is completely removed from Liverpool city centre, which is part of the argument against it for many of us. Moving further away from a vibrant, regenerated centre can only make us less likely to benefit from CofC and it’s subsequent benefits, can’t it?
Still, this adds more to the debate than another cowshed vs traditionalist moaners threads, nice one!
Still, this adds more to the debate than another cowshed vs traditionalist moaners threads, nice one!
Kevin Mitchell
5 Posted 14/01/2008 at 22:37:15
5 Posted 14/01/2008 at 22:37:15
I?m not 100% sure where City?s Eastlands Stadium is, never been there, let's hope the first time will be a Uefa Cup Final, but I bet it isn?t a further 5 miles away from the city centre though.
Paul, can?t see what you're looking at in regards to a world class stadium Your expectations need to be a lot higher. Is it the way the floodlights shine on the club badge at night?
As Lyndon says above, Kirkby is not going to be the catalyst for extra cash to propel us into Champions League positions every year.
Paul, can?t see what you're looking at in regards to a world class stadium Your expectations need to be a lot higher. Is it the way the floodlights shine on the club badge at night?
As Lyndon says above, Kirkby is not going to be the catalyst for extra cash to propel us into Champions League positions every year.
Paul Whitehouse
6 Posted 14/01/2008 at 23:04:51
6 Posted 14/01/2008 at 23:04:51
55,000-seater stadium, a certain venue when England get the World Cup and all modern amenities on a par but smaller than Arsenal & Man U. Why?s that not world class? In relation to reducing debt, aren't we £40 - 50 mill leveraged to Barclays? Hasn't this been made possible by Tesco?s not despite them. Our contribution to the cost of the new ground being made possible by the sale of GP for development. with the increased turnover then promised to the improvement of the team. My expectations are based on reality and the dire experiences of the last 10 years!
Sean Dylan
7 Posted 14/01/2008 at 23:11:37
7 Posted 14/01/2008 at 23:11:37
Paul Whitehouse it?s good to see you avn?t give up on the comedy... I used to love that show you had with Harry Enfield!
Have you ever been to a world-class stadium? Maybe you just have different basis for labelling a stadium world-class?
I live in Manchester at the mo and have been down Eastlands a loada times and it?s soulless shithole. Sure it?s sparkly, and they?ve played some decent stuff this season too but that?s just the indirect result of human rights abuses!
As for this chap in the Evening News... and Keith Quoting him favourably as if he might have somethig to shed on the stadium debate... haha
How the fuck could some jumped up journalist who clearly knows fuck all about not only Everton but evidently what it means to enjoy the real football matchday atmosphere add to the debate?
The atmosphere that I may add has delighted so many generations of ordinary working class folk since they appropriated the game from the gentry around the turn of the last century... and the lack of which has driven thousands of City fans ? I know/work with loads (unfortunately) ? to give up watching their beloved team. I watched Everton away there last christmas when we lost 2-0 and it was by a mile, the worst game I?ve ever been to.
Have you ever been to a world-class stadium? Maybe you just have different basis for labelling a stadium world-class?
I live in Manchester at the mo and have been down Eastlands a loada times and it?s soulless shithole. Sure it?s sparkly, and they?ve played some decent stuff this season too but that?s just the indirect result of human rights abuses!
As for this chap in the Evening News... and Keith Quoting him favourably as if he might have somethig to shed on the stadium debate... haha
How the fuck could some jumped up journalist who clearly knows fuck all about not only Everton but evidently what it means to enjoy the real football matchday atmosphere add to the debate?
The atmosphere that I may add has delighted so many generations of ordinary working class folk since they appropriated the game from the gentry around the turn of the last century... and the lack of which has driven thousands of City fans ? I know/work with loads (unfortunately) ? to give up watching their beloved team. I watched Everton away there last christmas when we lost 2-0 and it was by a mile, the worst game I?ve ever been to.
I?d like to keep our club in Liverpool but if that ain't possible then yeah we need to explore other options. I don?t buy that some cowshed that almost touches a fucking Tesco is the best we can do though? i just reckon it's the simplest thing that the chiefs upstairs have come up with to make a quick profit.
Sean Dylan
8 Posted 14/01/2008 at 23:34:50
8 Posted 14/01/2008 at 23:34:50
For the record Kev, City’s stadium is well less that 5mile from the city centre. A lot of the fans do the crawl from the centre about 45mins before KO on saturdays and that’s stopping off for a pint or two on the way.
Brian Donnelly
9 Posted 14/01/2008 at 23:44:56
9 Posted 14/01/2008 at 23:44:56
There?s absolutely no comparison between the Man City ground move and EFCs proposed move. For a start:
- City of Manchester stadium is about 1.5 miles to Piccadilly station.
- Man City didn?t have to pay anything towards their new stadium.
As for the EFC finance (who really knows), but at a guess we will need an average gate somewhere near 47-48,000 and all the corporate facilities to be sold out, to make anywhere near the £10m per annum. In the short term the increased debt will be frightening.
You are living in dreamland if you think that EFC can attract this sort of support, out in the middle of nowhere, with a 2- mile proposed parking restriction and 30-40,000 fans having to either walk or queue for public transport.
Incidentally, I thought the new stadium was 50,000 not 55,000 ? but then again it probably varies depending on the day of the week.
- City of Manchester stadium is about 1.5 miles to Piccadilly station.
- Man City didn?t have to pay anything towards their new stadium.
As for the EFC finance (who really knows), but at a guess we will need an average gate somewhere near 47-48,000 and all the corporate facilities to be sold out, to make anywhere near the £10m per annum. In the short term the increased debt will be frightening.
You are living in dreamland if you think that EFC can attract this sort of support, out in the middle of nowhere, with a 2- mile proposed parking restriction and 30-40,000 fans having to either walk or queue for public transport.
Incidentally, I thought the new stadium was 50,000 not 55,000 ? but then again it probably varies depending on the day of the week.
Matt Willey
10 Posted 14/01/2008 at 23:11:26
10 Posted 14/01/2008 at 23:11:26
The real fear is that the club will be left with a "mid-range" out of town stadium without the means to pay for it ... The club are already debt-ridden and recent borrowings are not based on the clubs own financial merit; rather on the ability of Robert Earl to underwrite them. I am thankful of that but the truth is that without Earl and without astute transfer dealings from Moyes ... we are in real trouble ’David O’Leary’ style.
However you look at it ... however ’ring-fenced’ the 50m? 60m? 100m? mortgage used to fit-out Kirkby is .. it must be the case that this expenditure will have a direct impact on Moyes ability to purchase players; just at a time when we are threatening to break the quadopoly at the top of the league.
Conceviably Everton could be competing at the very top level in the premier league and Europe consistently in the next couple of years... perhaps this would be the time to consider relocation... once new revenue streams (Champions League etc) existed that could fund the new stadia ... one befitting a top premier league club in a top city location .. rather than plumping for a mid-range stadium in a mid-range location for a middle of the road club. NSNO.
However you look at it ... however ’ring-fenced’ the 50m? 60m? 100m? mortgage used to fit-out Kirkby is .. it must be the case that this expenditure will have a direct impact on Moyes ability to purchase players; just at a time when we are threatening to break the quadopoly at the top of the league.
Conceviably Everton could be competing at the very top level in the premier league and Europe consistently in the next couple of years... perhaps this would be the time to consider relocation... once new revenue streams (Champions League etc) existed that could fund the new stadia ... one befitting a top premier league club in a top city location .. rather than plumping for a mid-range stadium in a mid-range location for a middle of the road club. NSNO.
Pat Domingo
11 Posted 15/01/2008 at 00:18:34
11 Posted 15/01/2008 at 00:18:34
Hey Dylan. Dylan Thomas. Or is it Bob Dylan.Or Dylan the Dog. Anyway. I’ve been to world class grounds. I’ve been to Eastlands. I live in Manchester etc etc. Big deal pal. Maybe the ’jumped up journalist’ was just giving his opinion. Eastlands is a fantastic new stadium. They moved from south Manc to the east of the city, probably about five miles but at least a couple of miles from the centre. Yeh, there have been complaints about the lack of atmosphere...but there was at Maine Road too. And what a shithole in Moss Side that was.And since they moved thousands more of your beloved proletariat has joined for a snort of the new opium of the masses etc as a Guardian reader like you would call it.
I can’t wait for us to move to Kirby. You lost the vote. Now shut it and get on with it. From an Everton-loving, son of the soil.
I can’t wait for us to move to Kirby. You lost the vote. Now shut it and get on with it. From an Everton-loving, son of the soil.
John Weaver
12 Posted 15/01/2008 at 10:25:28
12 Posted 15/01/2008 at 10:25:28
Pat (postman is it?) its pricks like you that make me say - ’enjoy it - but heres one more season ticket for you to sell’.
It will tear my heart in two but I will not be going to Kirkby so I will see you for a ’pleasant facility’ at Eastlands sometime - by the way I dunno what a proliterat is? are they the type of cakes you’ll be eating with your coffee lattee and guardian paper when you go the match in Kirkby?
Stick it.
It will tear my heart in two but I will not be going to Kirkby so I will see you for a ’pleasant facility’ at Eastlands sometime - by the way I dunno what a proliterat is? are they the type of cakes you’ll be eating with your coffee lattee and guardian paper when you go the match in Kirkby?
Stick it.
Tom Hughes
13 Posted 15/01/2008 at 10:32:14
13 Posted 15/01/2008 at 10:32:14
There is no comparison between City’s situation and ours. There satdium can be clearly seen and walked to from Manchester city centre, it also cost them nothing...... not "practically nothing" (ie £50-100m as is the case for Kirkby). Also, City’s ground is quite an impressive structure, and in many ways superior to the Kirkby proposal. May be a bit too symmetrical for the purist though. If people want a true independent view maybe Simon Inglis the stadium expert provides a better insight:http://forum.keioc.net/viewtopic.php?t=312
Or Arsene Wenger:http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_3047160,00.html
Or Arsene Wenger:http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_3047160,00.html
Karl Masters
14 Posted 15/01/2008 at 11:31:39
14 Posted 15/01/2008 at 11:31:39
It’s all very well saying that Goodison is outdated. We know that. Moving to a world class stadium would be great as well, but that’s not on the table either.
Moving to a bland Ewood Park style stadium in a residential suburb with poor transport links ( with regard to actually stopping and leaving your car rather than driving to the local area ) for an unspecified, but growing ever bigger sum of money is what’s on offer.
Not the same as City at all and an uninformed bit of journalism if ever there was. Nice sentiments, but incorrect. And City’s situation was only changed by a load of money obtained from a man with blood on his hands and a highly suspect past. Do we want that?
Moving to a bland Ewood Park style stadium in a residential suburb with poor transport links ( with regard to actually stopping and leaving your car rather than driving to the local area ) for an unspecified, but growing ever bigger sum of money is what’s on offer.
Not the same as City at all and an uninformed bit of journalism if ever there was. Nice sentiments, but incorrect. And City’s situation was only changed by a load of money obtained from a man with blood on his hands and a highly suspect past. Do we want that?
Sean Dylan
15 Posted 15/01/2008 at 11:26:35
15 Posted 15/01/2008 at 11:26:35
Well said Matt Willey, Tom Hughes, Brian Donnelly and here here John Weaver.
To the funny postman...
’I’ didn’t lose the vote fellow son of the soil- ’we did’ because of the ignorance of folks like you. I didn’t get a vote as i can’t afford the price of a season ticket nowadays so i certainly won’t be shutting up...no matter how much you may enjoy the apparent peace of blindly watching us relocate to Kirkby (in a cowshed joined to Tesco’s).
Anyway, the vote was hardly a mandate to even continue discussions, nevermind the board using as a green light to go and build the thing!
As for city fans well i think you’re mistaken once again there. Maine road did suffer towards the end somewhat because of lack of atmosphere but this was largely to do with the fact that they were playing that shite that they were being relegated almost every other season. As for the fans there now- their gate fluctuates like fuck but rarely do they ’sell-out’. Moreover, whereas many ’prawn-brigade’ fans may have latched onto the new shiney building/label/status of supporting ’city’, many of the traditional fans have become alienated from their team as the matchday & atmosphere is nothing like it was. So in effect, the ground support of what has made such clubs ’the brands’ they are today, has been lost. This disregard/disrespect for the common fan is what’s killing the roots of English football.
And "what a shithole moss side is"...just shows you up for what you are- easy to say such things whilst not having to live round there but where Maine road was is not too different an area from where Goodison is. I’d like to see you go say such things to the folk who have to live there...it’s easy to shout your mouth off behind the virtual shield that is the internet isnt it!
As for reading the Guardian? I don’t bother reading the daily rag but if i did, i’d have a little more trust in those writing for the paper that alleges to be ’the gurdian of free-speech/truth/what actually is going on,’ over some capitalist titilating twat mag like the Star.
You’ve shown yourself to be a bonehead in the 1st degree Pat...quit while you’re behind!
To the funny postman...
’I’ didn’t lose the vote fellow son of the soil- ’we did’ because of the ignorance of folks like you. I didn’t get a vote as i can’t afford the price of a season ticket nowadays so i certainly won’t be shutting up...no matter how much you may enjoy the apparent peace of blindly watching us relocate to Kirkby (in a cowshed joined to Tesco’s).
Anyway, the vote was hardly a mandate to even continue discussions, nevermind the board using as a green light to go and build the thing!
As for city fans well i think you’re mistaken once again there. Maine road did suffer towards the end somewhat because of lack of atmosphere but this was largely to do with the fact that they were playing that shite that they were being relegated almost every other season. As for the fans there now- their gate fluctuates like fuck but rarely do they ’sell-out’. Moreover, whereas many ’prawn-brigade’ fans may have latched onto the new shiney building/label/status of supporting ’city’, many of the traditional fans have become alienated from their team as the matchday & atmosphere is nothing like it was. So in effect, the ground support of what has made such clubs ’the brands’ they are today, has been lost. This disregard/disrespect for the common fan is what’s killing the roots of English football.
And "what a shithole moss side is"...just shows you up for what you are- easy to say such things whilst not having to live round there but where Maine road was is not too different an area from where Goodison is. I’d like to see you go say such things to the folk who have to live there...it’s easy to shout your mouth off behind the virtual shield that is the internet isnt it!
As for reading the Guardian? I don’t bother reading the daily rag but if i did, i’d have a little more trust in those writing for the paper that alleges to be ’the gurdian of free-speech/truth/what actually is going on,’ over some capitalist titilating twat mag like the Star.
You’ve shown yourself to be a bonehead in the 1st degree Pat...quit while you’re behind!
Sean Dylan
16 Posted 15/01/2008 at 11:57:13
16 Posted 15/01/2008 at 11:57:13
Well said Karl too (you got in just before me then!)
Karl Masters
17 Posted 15/01/2008 at 11:47:18
17 Posted 15/01/2008 at 11:47:18
One other thing. There were banks of empty red seats at Sunderland’s game against Portsmouth on Sunday and it looked half empty. In fact, there were over 37,000 in there, not a bad crowd considering few away fans and on telly too.
The design of the stadium is crucial in making a decent crowd not appear like a half empty stadium. We would not always fill Kirkby especially if the Team hits a poor patch. At Goodison the close proximity of the crowd created an atmosphere that probably kept us in the Top division more than once. Things like this just don’t seem to have been thought about at Kirkby.
If we have to go there, at least make it a stadium to be proud of. What we are being shown now is simply not good enough.
The design of the stadium is crucial in making a decent crowd not appear like a half empty stadium. We would not always fill Kirkby especially if the Team hits a poor patch. At Goodison the close proximity of the crowd created an atmosphere that probably kept us in the Top division more than once. Things like this just don’t seem to have been thought about at Kirkby.
If we have to go there, at least make it a stadium to be proud of. What we are being shown now is simply not good enough.
Patty Beesley
18 Posted 15/01/2008 at 11:54:59
18 Posted 15/01/2008 at 11:54:59
Jhon... proletariat is a word for the working class...I don?t ?ave A level Eng. Lang for nuthin mate!! Only pulling your leg - yeah, I know pull the other one, its got bells on!!
Andrew Fletcher
19 Posted 15/01/2008 at 13:29:58
19 Posted 15/01/2008 at 13:29:58
He’s not the only one, the MCFC official site itself starts with a dig at Goodison. Suggesting we dont fit into the "City of Culture" year whilst they had to sit on wooden seats in a wooden stand. Since when did this mean you were cultured or not ?
I, funnily enough, am writing this whilst at a conference in the City Stadium. From the outside the building has already worn and in 5 years Im sure will look decidedly rubbish.
However, inside, to be fair, and I am curently overlooking the pitch, there are boxes around each side of the ground and I parked outside the ground for free. Their facilities on first glance, and after having a superb lunch, are excellent.
I, funnily enough, am writing this whilst at a conference in the City Stadium. From the outside the building has already worn and in 5 years Im sure will look decidedly rubbish.
However, inside, to be fair, and I am curently overlooking the pitch, there are boxes around each side of the ground and I parked outside the ground for free. Their facilities on first glance, and after having a superb lunch, are excellent.
Peter Corcoran
20 Posted 15/01/2008 at 13:45:10
20 Posted 15/01/2008 at 13:45:10
I seem to recall fairly recently that Alex Ferguson was quite rightly moaning about the atmosphere at Old Trafford. Man U fans complain that they can’t sing unless their standing up and from what they did utter against Everton at Old Trafford I am sure they can only sing or chant out of their backside!
Many City fans moaning about Eastlands. I noticed Man City fans standing up at Goodison on Saturday - sore backsides?
Norwegians moaning about Anfield. Boring Norwegians = boring atmosphere.
It’s the fans not the stadium that make the atmosphere!
But I still don’t want to go to Kirkby.
Many City fans moaning about Eastlands. I noticed Man City fans standing up at Goodison on Saturday - sore backsides?
Norwegians moaning about Anfield. Boring Norwegians = boring atmosphere.
It’s the fans not the stadium that make the atmosphere!
But I still don’t want to go to Kirkby.
Brian Waring
21 Posted 15/01/2008 at 16:07:07
21 Posted 15/01/2008 at 16:07:07
As the club have told us. We are getting a mid - level stadium, with basic amenities. Hardly the description of a state of the art or world class stadium is it?
Keith Glazzard
22 Posted 15/01/2008 at 21:37:30
22 Posted 15/01/2008 at 21:37:30
And that should be that. Thanks to all - I’ve read your comments, and I hope reflecting on this journalist’s comments has been of benefit to anyone who joined in.
For myself - I don’t think I was misrepresented, except for the suggestion that I was promoting the view of the journalist - please don’t shoot the messenger.
And I enjoyed our discussion about the proletariat and Guardian readers which seemed to come out of left field during the above. Careful now - if you want to stray into that territory, be prepared to be bored into submission.
For myself - I don’t think I was misrepresented, except for the suggestion that I was promoting the view of the journalist - please don’t shoot the messenger.
And I enjoyed our discussion about the proletariat and Guardian readers which seemed to come out of left field during the above. Careful now - if you want to stray into that territory, be prepared to be bored into submission.
Pat Domingo
23 Posted 16/01/2008 at 23:50:26
23 Posted 16/01/2008 at 23:50:26
Sean, your Keep Evertonians in Our Chippy stance doesn’t hold water.
City’s gates have gone up since they moved. No question of that. Of course the vote is a mandate for the club to move- what else could it be? So many fans have become ’alienated’ - great Guardian word. I have too, to an extent. Thing is, people like you want to turn the clock back and its never going to happen. Like it or not, blame Sky or the media or Maggie, but footy today is all about ’brands’ and big business. Would you prefer donkey jackets and hooligans? Would that make you feel a bit less ’alienated’. I don’t think grass roots football is dying. There are still loads of lads playing amateur. But pro football has changed and no matter how much you’d like to, you can’t turn the clock back. I wish we could keep some traditions, but don’t miss other things, you’ve just got to move on with it.
Point of information: I said Maine Road was a shithole IN Moss Side. Not Moss Side was a shithole.You really shouldn’t misrepresent something written down in black and white in front of you - like the result of a vote or something. Perhaps get some help reading? Now can I quit or am I still behind?
City’s gates have gone up since they moved. No question of that. Of course the vote is a mandate for the club to move- what else could it be? So many fans have become ’alienated’ - great Guardian word. I have too, to an extent. Thing is, people like you want to turn the clock back and its never going to happen. Like it or not, blame Sky or the media or Maggie, but footy today is all about ’brands’ and big business. Would you prefer donkey jackets and hooligans? Would that make you feel a bit less ’alienated’. I don’t think grass roots football is dying. There are still loads of lads playing amateur. But pro football has changed and no matter how much you’d like to, you can’t turn the clock back. I wish we could keep some traditions, but don’t miss other things, you’ve just got to move on with it.
Point of information: I said Maine Road was a shithole IN Moss Side. Not Moss Side was a shithole.You really shouldn’t misrepresent something written down in black and white in front of you - like the result of a vote or something. Perhaps get some help reading? Now can I quit or am I still behind?
© ToffeeWeb
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
1 Posted 14/01/2008 at 21:23:08