ToffeeWeb - Season 2007-08

Barry Scott
1 Posted 19/01/2008 at 13:19:38

Hear hear,

The Price Waterhouse Coopers report would be an interesting read especially as it was commissioned by the club and it apparently states that a city centre stadium would provide ten times as much income as a Kirkby stadium could.

It?s also encouraging to see that Bryan Gray from the Liverpool Culture Company board and NWDA could be meeting with the Liverpool City Council leader to discuss funding for a full feasibility report on the Scotland Road site.

James Murphy
2 Posted 19/01/2008 at 13:35:59

Just a quick question, if for some reason RS find they cant build their dream stadium and Everton are running into a few problems with Kirkby, and if Liverpool Council put an offer of a shared stadium, would this be acceptable to the no vote or would the yes vote have a change of heart and remain in the city but the carrot is a shared stadium. I for one dont want to move to Kirkby, but a shared stadium I dont know which is worse. The reason I ask is I have a feeling this could surface again, shared stadium

Alan Rodgers
3 Posted 19/01/2008 at 14:08:52

James - I was tempted to add to my original letter a comment about groundshare . The lesser of two evils is my opinion. If DIC buy out the current owners, I don?t see it coming up... but isn?t it the case that the Americans were quite keen at one stage?

Gavin Ramejkis
4 Posted 19/01/2008 at 14:28:54

Alan I think one of the yanks was for it but the other wasn’t, the Arabs are against it. Any groundshare would have to be a fifty fifty to be attractive to most fans if at all and that is unlikely too as we dont have the money.

Alan Willo
5 Posted 19/01/2008 at 15:00:23

Why are you all so happy with all these objections? Do any of you have a brain? If they object to any retail development with in10 miles of the CC then EFC are fucked! We have no chance of getting a commercial sponsor if we can't have additional areas for income so frankly this makes EFC as a business less workable.

All your objections ,mainly because of location, are fine but don't handicap the project target location demanding change ? otherwise we will always be the poor relative to the top teams. Put the same project in Walton Park!!!

That's the answer but again, and again KEIOC and LCC are weak to the point of being a bunch of old women. Show us fans and EFC a proper Plan B with funding and space for retailer sponsors!!!! The Loop is a joke; Aintree is not suitable... so Kirkby it is. Wake up, No voters, we have no MONEY to build on our own ? FACT!

Barry Scott
6 Posted 19/01/2008 at 15:45:29

Alan, I don’t understand your response. What type of "additional areas for income" will we have in Kirkby?

Neil Pearse
7 Posted 19/01/2008 at 15:53:53

Glad to see that even the fact that the RS can’t afford to build on their own in the city has not shaken the faith of the NOs that somehow we are going to! Well, I suppose now we can always take over their site on Stanley Park? Especially with TEN TIMES the income that we would get in Kirkby (phew!). With that amount of money it’s a mystery why the RS are having any problems.

Stu Junno
8 Posted 19/01/2008 at 15:59:05

We're going to Kirkby! I can't wait...

Dave Wilson
9 Posted 19/01/2008 at 15:43:07

Alan Willo, Calm down mate, it was never going to get to second base; soon the clubs custodians will forced to admit the folly of exclusivity agreements and look PROPERLY at alternative suggestions.
It's hard enough to get a Yes voter to come out in public now ? what's the chances of finding one in a few months, I mean, who will be that brave? Who will be brave enough stand up and admit they were gullible enough to believe Keith "Faddy's not for sale" Wyness?

Neil Pearse
10 Posted 19/01/2008 at 16:02:55

Dave, here’s a Yes voter out in public! Still waiting for those alternatives from the No voters. The ones in Liverpool that we can afford to build on our own. Even though the RS probably can’t.

On Faddy - of course we say he’s not for sale! (a) If no-one bites we can hardly have told him we wanted to get rid of him; (b) ever heard of negotiating for a better price (which we got)?

You must really hate Wyness if you are criticizing him for getting nearly £6M for James McFadden!

Gavin Ramejkis
11 Posted 19/01/2008 at 16:15:22

Neil, to be honest, you are one of very few Yes voters that doesn?t rant about the "free" Kirkby deal, acknowledging it will incur a great deal of investment by the club. The trouble with that investment, which will have to come from very large bank loans, is the current state of the finance industry ? tied with the concept that the same monies spent in Kirkby could be spent at Goodison Park, which the club still own, without needing as much third party involvement or enabling partnerships or a city-based site which would. The scale of Project Jennifer and the city centre regeneration would give rise to many investment opportunities but these don't appear to have been investigated beyond soundbites from the club saying no.

As a project manager I would always have to provide the list of alternatives considered and written off with sound reasoning before beginning a project, I?m not asking for the world but surely some disclosure as to what was considered and why it was not chosen would be prudent. All projects should consider whether or not the initial project is still valid before continuing at each stage; the club dont seem to be following this basic premise.

Andy Worstmundle
12 Posted 19/01/2008 at 16:16:53

The fact that the NWDA are involved means the shared stadium WILL be back on the agenda, they only supported that over the past 5 years.

As for the KMBC report, bear in mind that officers (employees) work on the instructions of members (elected officials) and, with objections from the elctorate and elections looming, the fear of being booted out will hold more and more sway.

The Loop will have private partners because it falls within a regeneration zone, Alan Willo ? we do have a brain!

Tony Williams
13 Posted 19/01/2008 at 16:20:41

Nearly six millio...he, he he ha ha, nearly six mill..ha ha oh ha ha.... nearly six million for James McFa...he he he I can?t breathe.

I am sorry but as Neil states, this is one thing that you can?t have a go at Wyness for. £6M for Fadds is along the line of getting £2M for Bent, it was daylight robbery.

Oh and I was a Yes voter and I am still here. I have no qualms about stating I voted Yes. I?m sorry if that doesn?t fit in with you ill-thought-out comment.

Dave Wilson
14 Posted 19/01/2008 at 16:17:01

Neil, If I was to meet you in an alehouse, I would buy you a beer, in fact I?d buy you several. At least you would have had the courage of your convictions. But let's face it ? very few Yes voters openly admit it in public... not sure why, but I believe IMHO there is an element of fear; fear of ridicule or abuse.

Wyness did not have to say anything and although I admire the way you jump to his defence, even you don't believe his stupid "not for sale " statement made Birmingham come up with the dosh.
He spoke therefore he lied.

Dave Wilson
15 Posted 19/01/2008 at 17:31:56

Tony Williams, The value of a player, or anything else is for that matter, is determined by the amount someone is prepared to pay for it, not how much the seller wants. Faddy has performed miracles for Eck, how do you know Eck wasn't prepared to go to £10 mill, but we let him go for £4.75 ?
Still laughing???

Robert Carney
16 Posted 19/01/2008 at 17:43:01

I only wish there was light at the end of the tunnel (sic).

Somehow I feel local politicians (MPs) are united in favour of Kirkby and the deal is done. I base this on the silence coming from the likes of Kilfoyle and Howard in Knowsley. This pair of bastards have plenty of influence in the House.

The only one to come out in favour of us staying local is Louis Ellerman. Pity we are not based in Israel, she would be shouting from the rooftops.

Kenwright has a lot to answer for.

Rob Jones
17 Posted 19/01/2008 at 17:40:33

Oh and here's another would-have-been Yes voter... my god, Dave, we are ashamed to show our faces around here. And are you the usual cynical one that keeps saying every couple of months that It?ll go wrong soon?

Michael Kenrick
18 Posted 19/01/2008 at 18:08:48

I must admit I find the use of the word "contemptible" in that headline... well... contemptible! I’m not personally enthused about Kirkby but to call it "digraceful, despicable, or having no regard for the law" seems a little OTT for me.

Tony Williams
19 Posted 19/01/2008 at 18:19:11

Dave, too right I am still laughing. It is said that Moyes had a valuation of £5.7M on Fadds and he has gotten that, after a fashion. As I said before, we have mugged the Brum big time. We are lucky he scored a couple of great goals for Scotland at important times, otherwise we would be either letting him go for a free at the end of next season or a very small fee.

Cash in on him whilst we can, as the lad will never be a regular in the first team.

Yes McLeish is fond of him but he is daft not mad and we are lucky to get that amount for him...

Ron Leith
20 Posted 19/01/2008 at 18:30:56

I voted Yes to Kirby and can not understand why people who lost a vote can not accept a democratic decision. The other Councils may object to the scheme and it may not get permission in the long run and all the No voters will be happy to watch Championship foootball. They will then all say Oh well actually I did vote Yes really honest.

Dave Wilson
21 Posted 19/01/2008 at 18:31:08

Tony
"It is said that Moyes valuation was 5.75"
What are you talking about, said by who??? and what do you mean we got it after a fashion?
Face facts, Wyness - the guy who accepted payment by installments from the richest club in the world - has fucked up again, Everton will get potentially another 1 mill if he plays so many games for Scotland, but if he is as crap as you say he is, then the next Scotland manager will see right through him and he wont play anyway, however, if hes good enough why not get his maximum value, now!

Gavin Ramejkis
22 Posted 19/01/2008 at 19:07:33

Dave Wilson, Scottish football is pap. JM will carry on playing for them if for nothing else than to keep their fans happy as he is still seen as a folk hero. He doesn?t have much competition up the road, christ they even rate Fletcher enough to give him a game.

Alan Rodgers
23 Posted 19/01/2008 at 19:27:41

Michael , I did say I borrowed the headline from KEIOC ! However I do have contempt for the whole idea of Kirkby.

Dave Wilson
24 Posted 19/01/2008 at 19:57:42

Ron Lieth,
so if we don't go to Kirkby we?ll get relegated? When will this be mate? Have you got a time scale on that?

Everton, Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Newcastle, Spurs, Pompey, Villa, did not move, all been in prem a long time, Arsenal won everything year after year then moved and guess what they?ve won since ? Zilch

Middlesbrough, Derby, Reading. Sunderland, Wigan, Liecester, Southampton, Stoke, Coventry all did move.

Seems to me the only thing that guarentees Championship football is a move to a retail park. Here?s one for the Yes voters, which team in the history of the prem has moved grounds and actually done better?

Ron Leith
25 Posted 19/01/2008 at 20:35:31

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and I value argument as much as anybody. However, all I was pointing out was that there has been a vote and unfortunately some people will never accept they lost it. I was then putting forward a hypothesis where those that voted against may find themselves to be proved wrong. That is called a reasoned argument. You may disagree but unfortunately you also appear to have fallen out of your pram Dave.

Tom Hughes
26 Posted 19/01/2008 at 20:52:48

David,
Would you put your house on the Kirkby move..... I doubt you would if you’re honest. The objections are very real, as are the UDP infringements which were known about from day1. I assume we’ll all be crying to mother if whatever we do, move or stay is the ruination of our club, can’t think of any example to suggest staying resulting in such...... I think you’ll find the bullshit has a long way to run yet....... I believe it started with such gems as "stadium for nothing" (now £80-100m+ cost to the club), "most accessible stadium in the NW", now requiring the biggest park and ride scheme in the country because it is infact the least accessible in the country.

Kenny Jones
27 Posted 19/01/2008 at 21:11:55

I hope this cowshed in some fucking overspill suburb of Liverpool falls flat on its face. I hope Tesco pull out and I hope Bill Kenwright eats fucking Tesco own-brand beans for the rest of his life. I for one like my pint on County Road, before and after the game; I like my pie and chips from the chippy on Walton Road. I actually like Goodison Park, I hate the Rebock and all them other plastic boxes in the middle of nowhere. So take Kirkby and ram it right up Mrs Steven Gerard's arse.

Michael Kenrick
28 Posted 19/01/2008 at 21:26:48

Oh dear... the intelligent No-voter speaks.

Thanks for that enlightening contribution, Kenny Jones.... It really does make me think twice about the benefits of having a free and open forum for the discussion of these issues when that sort of thing is the best you can manage.

Sand in you mangina? (I guess OTOH, gems like that do make it worthwhile!!!)

Jay Harris
29 Posted 19/01/2008 at 21:47:22

Ron Leith, you weren't just pointing out the democratic vote ? you actually said if we didn't move to Kirkby we would be playing Championship football.Which only demonstrates the lack of intelligence of the yes voters.FYI Goodison has held all of our finest moments and had crowds approaching 80,000 and my vote would definitely be to redevelop GP progressively.

The reason so many people detest Wyness is because he can't lie straight in bed. The FREE stadium is now going to cost EFC anything between £80 and £150 million. There is no plan B.The Loop cannot be developed and all kinds of other bullshit.

Ask yourself why such a large number of blues are against this move and that should tell you its not in the best interests of EFC.

Andy MacFarlane
30 Posted 19/01/2008 at 22:13:58

Just when I thought this site was improving ? with some really positive dialogue, analysis of team selection, predictions and hopes for forthcoming games, and discussion of The Club?s (Moyes and the Board?s) recent positive transfer strategy ? the old negative, arrogant, insulting, and abusive "No to Kirkby" brigade start their rants again. (With no disrespect to fellow Evertonians who sincerely object to the move, but at least preserve a sense of respect to the opposing view) YAWN.........

Neil Pearse
31 Posted 19/01/2008 at 23:33:52

Thanks Gavin and Dave. It’s true, even though a still stalwart Yes, I don’t and never have claimed that Kirkby is (a) free or (b) fantastic. I’m not mad - there no such thing as a free lunch; and Kirkby is blindingly obviously not the Emirates.

What I do claim is: (a) we have to move to increase our revenues; (b) we can’t afford any other alternative that I have any even vague awareness of; and (c) point (b) is now even more true given the financial credit crunch that has hit us.

Don’t kid yourself, the crisis that has hit Hicks and Gillett over on the dark side is their inability to borrow to fund an expensive go-it-alone stadium. They have by all accounts attempted to radically ratchet back the cost of the stadium, but they still can’t borrow what they need and are now looking to sell to the DIC.

Now it could very well be that we can’t now afford Kirkby. I think it is now close to a stone cold certainty that we can’t afford anything else. Except staying at Goodison and hoping for the best (that it won’t fall down and one of these alternatives will somehow ’show up’). I think Kirkby is so modest and prudent that it still represents by far our best overall bet.

Roy Coyne
32 Posted 20/01/2008 at 00:25:06

I, like many others, are against the Kirkby move and, although I will abide by the vote as I did when Thatcher won her elections, it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Also, on Faddy, surely the proof of this being a good deal for us is who we replace him with... as, if we don't, we are a man down to balance Bully's books.

Derek Thomas
33 Posted 20/01/2008 at 04:44:43

Neil Pearse: Revenues, revenues, revenues, this is all we hear from the yeses.

The main revenue is the Sky TV money, this depends on how high you finish in the EPL and getting a good run in the CL ... aka how many times you are on the box, THIS depends on how good the team does.

Next, at joint equal is... Gate money, up to now we get a full house twice a season, THIS also depends on how well the team is playing. Build it and they will come, well not so much come, as park and ride and walk and walk and walk.

Then, the merchandising, shirts etc etc THIS also depends on the quality of the results and the cache of the top players. like it or not we dumped 5 times more Rooney swag than we ever sold of Bent, Kilbane, Davies, Mc Fadden etc etc ...THIS, well do we see a pattern here yet??

The City of Culture 2008 !! 365 events, concerts functions, something for every one.
How many at Goodison OR Anfield ??

How many major big money pop concerts at NW grounds in the last five years.

Can anybody counter Dave Wilson’s statement that NO TEAM IN THE PREM has yet won anything, or, with the exception of maybe Arsenal will EVER win anything after moving grounds.

You’re living in a dream world

Events have over taken us and the time for stadium building is, for the financial moment, gone.

The aim is not to jump on the bandwagon but to be driving it!!...Kings Dock any one??

Cue sound of bandwagon vanishing into the distance

Kevin Mitchell
34 Posted 20/01/2008 at 10:08:45

Neil Pearse, what is the point of building a stadium in Kirkby that let’s face it the majority of supporters don’t want.
The whole point of a new stadium is to attract more fans and more corporate facilities for more money for better players, I think we all agree on that.
So what is the point of building it In Kirkby when it’s going to have the opposite effect? Where’s the attraction?
Kenny Jones, funniest post i’ve read in ages! Livend up my morning.

Terry Lloyd
35 Posted 20/01/2008 at 11:10:26

My sentiments Kenny, dont know about Mrs Gerrard’s rear end though. Part of my match day is going down County Road meeting up with the lads, few pints and then go the game at 2.50, just in time for Z Cars, I to like a few jars in the Brick after the game and then a bag of chips, wander home and watch Match of the day. It’s something I like doing, going to Kirkby will kill the match day atmosphere in and around Goodison Park. Call me living int he past, but I like doing what I do and Kirkby for me is not what I or thousands of Evertonians want.

Tony Williams
36 Posted 20/01/2008 at 11:34:49

I understand what Terry and Kenny are saying, but you are simply rubbishing Kirkby due to the fact that it will take you longer to get the game and you won?t be able to have a pint in your local before and after the game.

Jay Harris and his sweeping generalisation of the Yes voter (doh!) does this mean that every No voter is a selfish pisshead who doesn?t want to go to Kirkby because of the alehouse situation?

Kevin you state that "let?s face it the majority of supporters don?t want", what are you basing this on? The couple of hundred people that post on here are split, granted the No?s have the slight majority but I think you are just quoting assumptions to aid you comments.

You and I can?t know the full numbers because the ballot was a closed off thing, I had my vote and you possibly had yours but you cannot make that statement without first having the facts on who want/doesn?t want Kirkby and don?t give me the "Five of my mates are all against it, so it must be true" line.

Paul Gladwell
37 Posted 20/01/2008 at 11:34:22

10 of us sat in the Halfway Birkenhead on Boxing Day full of flu and hungover it was 2:15 before the game . It was live on the pub screen but we mustered a couple of taxis and got to goodison for kick off.
I know for a fact if we move to kirkby this wont happen and a few will take to watching the game on the arab channels that screen every game we play.
How many more people across Merseyside will adopt this approach if we move, especially on a cold wednesday in January?
Alot of people will cry off , add the people who have vowed to not go to Kirkby , so where will the people come from to replace these people?
I will be there but I am worried about going and not feeling the same anymore.
A third of our season ticket holders are from over our side and whilst I am not saying everyone will stop going I do think a few hardcore season ticket holders may turn into pick your game fans.
It's all well and good people saying "We don't want these fans" because its not a question of wanting but needing these fans.
I just think along with the crazy notion of leaving a thriving city , that the risks of moving to kirkby far outweight the risks of staying .

Alan Clarke
38 Posted 20/01/2008 at 12:49:11

I bet you any money Paul, it would still happen. It’s 4 extra miles and if you’re in a taxi it doesn’t matter too much. I’m a firm believer that if we are good enough on the pitch, the fans will come.

I voted no but if anything I’m warming to the Kirkby idea because the team still needs investment. The stadium will be relatively cheap for us allowing more money to be spent on players and developing youth.

What’s the saying? Blues go the match, RS go to the pub.

Barry Scott
39 Posted 20/01/2008 at 15:16:14

We are moving out of Goodison Park because it cost £500,000 pa to maintain into Kirkby, a site with a lease that will cost £300,000 pa.

For the sake of £200,000pa we are moving out of Goodison.

Kevin Mitchell
40 Posted 20/01/2008 at 23:20:14

Tony Williiams, yes you're right, I don?t know the true figures but most of the Yes voters on here say they would prefer to redevelop Goodison if it could be done> And yes, I?ve only met three people who say they voted for it.

Tony Williams
41 Posted 21/01/2008 at 08:53:28

OK Kevin, you win, that post swings it for me. You and your peer group set the standard for all Evertonians. How can I argue against logic like that?

Can I change my vote Mr Kenwright please.