Oh dear... and there was me hoping for a nice quiet weekend...

Now the dogs really be out looking for food! Got to say, though, John ? you have just described my worst nightmare regarding our great manager... Time will tell!

Oh for heaven’s sakes, John, I’d hate to have you in your middle management capacity doing my mid-year performance assessment. I’ve hundreds of millions of pounds less available to me than everyone both above and below me - so I generally have to rely on loan deals (which, of their very nature means, the lot I’m loaning from doesn’t consider the player to be good enough for them - e.g. Borussia Dortmund/Pienaar), I’m in charge of a provincial team well away from the delights of London, on any reasonable view my team lies in shadow of its neighbour from the perspective of any half decent prospective player, and yet somehow my team is lying 4th in the premiership and has just lost in close ties to a team that wins the Carling Cup just about every year. Despite all that, you wouldn’t just not give me a pay rise, you’d give me the sack! Apologies to the site moderator, but I just can’t help myself on this occasion: turn it up, mate - you are an idiot deserving of your very own character in Little Britain.

First of all, Spurs attack brilliantly and defend like shit, inc Robinson ... they are 11th and 15 points behind us and yes they are moving up the table (and improving) but they have a long way to go to the top four.
They recently played Chelsea... and lost 2-0.... maybe they should have gone all out for it and attacked Chelsea, eh?

Describing one year ago against Spurs as an act of cowardice is pretty strong ? even if you don?t like Moyes, that?s pretty strong..... especially when stated on here.... I?d like to see you make a decision with 35,000 fans screaming around you!

For me, Moyes makes mistakes yes, but he has steadily improved and he will get a trophy for the club ? if not this year (I actually think the Uefa Cup is ours!) then very, very soon.

And against the top three/four, it is just confidence that sets us apart. We might need that so-called special player or two to join the club but I think the main difference between us and "them" is a very thin line of confidence ? from players and Moyes alike.

COYB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brilliantly entertaining. And people slag my threads off for being too ?hyperbole? this is the biggest joke I have read in a while out doing Tony Marsh, are you Tony Marsh in diguise? I'm sure there was a time in the early days of Remos and Alex Fergusens managerial carriers when they had poor sides and didn't win trophies on a regular basis. Moyes is a young manager and is in a learning proccess and is learning the hard way ? perhaps not as fast as we might hope but he will get there with the benefit of progressive seasons of bringing in better players.

Hand on heart, I do think Moyes has improved our football is a lot better than it has been. But I have to agree that he seems to lack the ability to change things round during a game.

Well said! To support your comments I?d suggest the following tactical failings evident in that one game:

1. Moyes? game plan to score goals -

(a) play long balls from defence to Cahill ? unbelievably, to try to play him as our target man to receive the ball with his back to goal in the hope he would nod it on to AJ running in behind him. It didn?t work for all those years with Ferguson; it won?t work now.

(b) Keep Arteta out wide, ask him to keep hold of the ball as much as possible in the hope he draws a foul, then hope we?ll score from set-piece.

(c) Try to score from set- pieces.

(d)Try to score from set-pieces.


2. It was so predictable, Chelsea knew exactly what to expect and set their team up to deal with it:? double up on Arteta (Bridge and Malouda); play tight on Cahill, follow AJ?s runs off Cahill.

3. After 15 minutes, it was clear Chelsea were on to us. Did Moyes change his plan? Does he ever!?! ? unless 65 minutes have elapsed on the clock. Of course not!

4. So, could we have had a different game plan once it was apparent we were going nowhere? How about this?:

1) Tell Arteta to vary his game, let him take up a position slightly infield towards the centre, the same for Osman, tell Neville and Valente to push up and overlap down the wings (when we are attacking) and tell Arteta and Osman to look for oppotunities to get them in by playing balls over or through defence behind the fullbacks for them to run on to; tell Arteta and Osman above all to look to play balls through or over the defence for AJ to run onto (they can do this from position infield but can?t from wide positions). AJ?s pace should have been the main weapon we should have sought to use.

2.Tell Cahill to drop deeper, i.e., away from Carvalho and Alex so he can make runs into the box from deep (hopefully unmarked).

3. Tell Carsley and Fernandes to sit in defensive midfield positions to pick up any breaks from Chelsea, particularly if our fullbacks are upfield.

Chelsea?s team formation was 4-1-4-1 when defending. My formation would be 4-2-3-1 with the condition that our fullbacks play in very advanced positions when we are attacking so that in effect our formation would be 2-2-5-1 when attacking. It would be risky but this was a Cup semi-final. If you won?t take a chance in that game, when will you? As it was Moyes played 4-4-2 ? it just showed a lack of invention and I?m sorry to say a lack of bottle.

"Next Wednesday will be very interesting as, one year on from his most infamous act of cowardice, he will come up against a man who in a couple of months has turned a rabble into a very formidable attacking team"

A rabble???? They finished 5th the last 2 seasons! Some rabble that is!



We were hit by a sucker punch at home to Chelsea! They scored at a time when we were looking like the team who would score!
They were the better team because they have better players - I cant understand this obsession with beating the Sky 4!

Please show me a Manager who regularly outwits Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal and I’ll be happy to advocate getting him to replace Moyes!

8/10 from me for Moyes. To get full marks he needs to be braver and take more calculated risks. Show a touch more belief in the defence and employ more firepower and creativity up front. Take a leaf out of Mourinho’s book and be proactive in making attacking subs early in the game when necessary. He was braver at Stamford bridge in the league when we were 1 down at half time. We ended up offerring far more threat in the second half and scored an equaliser in the end. With more time I would have fancied us to win it. When he had the balls to do it at Stamford Bridge in the league game (and it worked) I’m hoping he will do it more often in future. I’m confident the calculated rist taking will work far more often than not e.g. bringing Vaughan on early should work as he IS good enough (as are the rest of the team) to make it work. I also think 442 with Cahill on the left mid is worth a good go, as suggested by Howard Kendall no less. Midfield could then be Arteta and Fernandes in the middle, Pienaar and Cahill on right and left midfield. Agree with Howie that, as with Gary Speed, playing that position would increase Cahill’s potency arriving late in the box for headers and is a way to keep him in the side without having play 5 in midfield. He can interchange with Arteta too throughout the game as required. If it works (Manny needs to step up to the plate as the midfield general if it is to work) then we may just have found a winning formation against all comers. Go on, be brave and try it Moyesy. COYB.

Moyes will never get one of those ?top jobs? in football because he has little imagination, no flair and is a serial ditherer. Fergie, Wenger & Co patronise him because they know he and his teams are no threat to them. They are happy to nominate him for Manager of the Year because it means bugger all and they?d rather concentrate on winning real trophies.

All that doesn?t mean he isn?t a good manager of Everton ? I can think of few British managers who would have done better ? but he is never destined for greatness. I suspect he will still be at the helm in five years time but will have won nothing. A sort of Ted Bates who spent 15 years at Southampton and won fuck all!

Oh I see what you mean John Doolan. Get rid of Moyes, he?s useless. Kenwright has the money to go and bag us a top continental manager who plays fast flowing football, doesn?t he?

It wouldn?t have mattered what tactics Moyes played against Chelsea we?d have still lost. Man for man they were better. I wouldn?t have put any of our players in Chelsea?s team ahead of who they had. It was a case of the haves against the have nots. Chelsea have spent £22 million this January, we?ve brought in one loan signing and sold someone for £5.5 million to balance the books.

Get real, no manager can compete with those ?rich 4? without adequate money to back them up. moyes said we lacked that bit of magic. Magic costs money and we don?t have it. So wake up for God?s sake and realise that until we get in any sort of investment you?re head?s in the clouds.

For me, Moyes is a decent manager, who this season has won me over, in some aspects of his managerial ability. The thing he lacks the most, in my opinion, is tactical nous. He just doesn’t seem able to change tactics to suit who we are up against. No matter who we play, it just seems to be the same old, same old. Great managers (and Moyes is far off being great ) always have the ability, to know when things are not working, to change it around, be it subs, tactics, formations. When thing are not going our way, and you see Moyes’ face on the bench, he just seems at a loss, as what to do. Against Chelsea, for the first 20mins, it was none stop twat it up to AJ, who never had a chance, surely Moyes can see this, so why doesn’t he get the message out to the lads, to stop it, and try to play football, it’s not as if we haven’t been playing good stuff when we want to. I just wish he would have had the balls, to play 2 up top, and just have gone for it.

Alan, I agree that Everton can probably not attract or afford a better manager than Moyes and, despite what I think about him, you have to recognise that he has done good job.

The point I was trying to make (and probably overcooking it) is that Moyes will never change his instincts ? none of us can ? and that, if we had the money to buy the best players, I really dont think he would be the man to take us forward. It simply annoys me when some fans pretend that he is as good as the likes of Ferguson or Wenger as it is plainly not the case.

You come across as a bit of a Newcastle fan with totally unrealistic expectations. If we ever get investment then you might be able to complain but at present what else can we do?

Reading through this interesting thread, I think most fans agree that Moyes has done wonders in team building with a limited budget. and helping us grind out results to get us up to a very respectable position. However, most also seem to agree that during the fast changing dynamic conditions of an actual game, he seems to read the game wrongly or react too slowly.

IMHO, the solution is fairly simple -- get DM an assistant who has the "tactical nous" , the ability to read the game and change it around quickly. Surely, there must a number of ex-players, young managers who can fill in this role (from the continent, if necessary).

I am sure DM will welcome this. It is up to Kenwright to get on this quickly.

John - I agree to some degree. I too believe that this is as good as it gets. He is simply a luckier version of Walter Smith in as much as caution rules all of his thoughts and he has recruited better personnel to achieve his plans.

Against ten men, we should have gone for the jugular. A win there and we would probably have got through. It would have changed the game.

Regarding your comment about learning curves - let?s add Villa to that. O?Neill is well on the way to restoring them to a position amongst the top six or better in far less time than our dithering Davie.

I agree with Alan, there are people who seem to have ridiculous expectations of what Moyes should be doing. What would make you guys happy?

We’re the biggest thing outside the big 3 at the moment, above Liverpool in the league and only denied a cup final by an excellent Chelsea team performance, some world class goalkeeping, and an over protective whistle when the big Czech lad did drop one.

I used to be brilliant at Championship Manager, and would of course do some things differently to David Moyes, but to criticise him the way some people on here do is ridiculous.

On a related subject, I noticed comments were closed on the ’Petition to stop Tony Marsh posting on Toffeeweb’ thread, for understandable reasons. I do find his negativity extremely annoying, and he hardly provokes thoughtful rational debate, but everyone is allowed their say, even if you disagree with them.

Therefore I’ve come up with an easier and less extreme solution than censorship for those who don’t like him:

Ready? It’s ground breaking...

Don’t read what he posts!

It works.

Spurs a rabble? Who are you kidding. The money they have spent and the players they have got. A shambles yes, a rabble, NO!!!

Get a grip. Do you want us to have gone at chelsea and got wallopped about 7-2 over the 2 legs?

Woe, woe & thrice woe!!

Infamy, Infamy they’ve all got it in for me!!

Take your pick and wallow...... We’re out of two cups and it’s still only January. But the seasons still alive and loads to play for. Moyes’ best season yet

Can we bounce back? I don’t know, hope so but I’ll just keep enjoying my visits to GP.

Otherwise we’re all doooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmed!!

IMWT..........................COYB!!!!

Michael, I have always been a fan of the way this site is run, but things are getting out of hand in my opinion.

"Oh dear... and there was me hoping for a nice quiet weekend...
Now the dogs really be out looking for food! Got to say, though, John ? you have just described my worst nightmare regarding our great manager... Time will tell!"

Your chummy responses and willingness to lend implicit support to this kind of bile is really frustrating. It’s the same with Tony Marsh. You defend him to the death and continue to perpetuate this myth that he only talks about the game. Nonsense, his offensive messages have forced hundreds away from this website. Not only is he deeply unpleasant about hardworking pros at the club, but he also makes disparaging remarks about those who he considers "unintelligent enough" to see things his way.

You keep telling us that this site is about hearing all opinions. I couldn’t agree more, but don’t throw your weight behind the likes of Tony Marsh and John Doolan.

The site is no longer impartial, and I think it’s a crying shame. While you are rarely overt in telling us that Tony Marsh is spot on, the incessant support makes for an unfortunate atmosphere in this mailbag. Surely this is clear from the kinds of comments people are now sending in?

The Moyes bashers out again , pleased because we’ve lost a game so they can have a go . How can anyone say that if he had the money he would clearly be unable to take us any further ? He was given a reasonable amount at the start of the season and bought the Yak , not a " typical Everton player " was slated on these pages after he’d only played 2 games , but god how we missed him on Wednesday , Pienaar , Arteta and Ossie had a great partnership going in midfield , is it a coincidence that since this has been broken up our performances have suffered ? The one thing we lacked on wednesday was scoring the 1st goal , only because of the performance of Cech , if that had have happened the pressure was on chelsea and the tie MIGHT have been ours , I say might because chelsea are a very good team , with more experience in these games than we have . I trust David Moyes to take us that step further , some of you don’t but then 2 years ago many wanted him to be sacked because there was no way he could stop us from being relegated that season he "never had the tactical knowhow " , we finished 11th .

The stupidity of some of these postings beggars belief. You’re like a 5-year-old throwing a tantrum because we’re not winning every match. How come every one in the country and 90% of Evertonians can see the obvious truth - that we’re a well-managed and improving team, against the financial odds, but we’ve still got a way to go. How many of our players on Wednesday would have got in the Chelsea team - 2, 3 maybe? - how many of theirs would have got in ours - at least 9 or 10. The tie was lost in the 90th minute of the first leg - it was a brave effort at Goodison, but they’re a very, very hard team to break down - ask the RS. Who does anyone think would do a better job than Moyes - Coppell? John Collins? (as mentioned earlier in the season). ’Infamous act of cowardice?’ - get a grip and grow up.

Spurs have always been a formidable?? (good would be more appropriate) attacking team their problem is conceding goals and I don’t think Ramos has done much to suggest he has made any vast improvements in that department for them yet. So he dropped Robinson big deal he was rubbish anyway. How you survived through the walter smith years i’ll never know.

Before I comment on this article, well said Brian Richardson. I posted a similar response to the TM article. Also, well said Mike Allison, if you hate TM’s articles that much don’t read them. I read them because I enjoy the comments that follow and laugh at his uber-negative tripe.

John, as I said in the response to TM’s article, you do raise a point about Moyes’s apparent inability to read a game and change the tactics. However, you cannot ignore the limited options he has. Wenger, Ferguson, Avram, all have large squads of varying talent to turn to when things aren’t going their way and they still lose games! So how good are they?

Perhaps if people like Tony weren’t so obvious with their agenda and a little more constructive with their criticism, people would engage in more constructive debate in their response.

To conclude, I must agree with John on the tactical failings of Moyes at certain times but feel that Ajay Gopal gave the answer. Bring in a No.2 who specifically has tactical nouse. There are many factors that can be considerd to make up the "perfect" manager, and not many men would tick all the boxes. The key is to surround yourself with the staff who will compliment you. Let’s hope Moyes can make the right appointment in the summer.

COYB!!

On Wednesday I was reminded about my views after THAT Spurs game last year and did not apologise for it. However, I did for me being impatient in thinking it's time for a change. He deserved his stick, but to me I think he has learnt so much since.

We are getting closer lads, We are progressing nicely, can you people not see that ?
We have to get in Europe to keep our better players and if we can add to these then next year there wont be any more excuses or hard luck stories.

The words unrealistic expectations spring to mind.

Can anyone tell what the act of cowardice was, that John Doolan mentioned?

Jon, that would be a reference to his decision regarding substitutions in a home game against Spurs last season. Perhaps you have conveniently forgotten how it lost us the game, much to the chagrin of 35,000 screaming Evertonians in Goodison Park?

Great post Brian. I would love to say the same but unfortunately I would probably get banned.

Brian: "Your chummy responses and willingness to lend implicit support to this kind of bile is really frustrating."

First of all, as Editor of this site, I try to be accompdating to any and all contributors who acccept and conform with the aim and purpose of the site in general, and this mailbag specifically. Publishing a mailbag item and commenting as above, as you well know, does not consitute "implict support". John’s comments do however enshrine my worst fears about Moyes ? does that really constitute "bile"?

You have the gaul to characterise something you don’t like as "bile" ? how do you think these pages would appear if I started adopting your narrow and blinkered view?

This mailbag has and will continue to reflect a wide diversity of views on Everton, some of which are expressed strongly. That’s the way it has always been. This is an independent Everton website that has no hesitation in providing a conduit for information, analysis and commentary on anything and everything to do with Everton. We don’t waste too much space on cheerleading and psycophantic back-slapping, if that’s what you’re looking for. I like to think we are cattering to a more intelligent and discerning portion of the Everton fanbase than that... but sometimes I really do wonder.

And Tony Williams, you’re running very close to the line. You can’t stop yourself from offering up these snide little digs instead of sensibly talking about Everton and I am rapidly tiring of this nonsense. I have made it abundantly clear what is and is not acceptable. Abuse of other contributors and askling for them to be banned is not acceptable. Next thing to be banned will be people going on and on endlessly about the posters with whom they disagree, instead of engaging in meaningful discussion.

By all means focus on what that person has said that you disagree with, and offer up a worthwhile counter arguement. But please can you cut out these incessant off-topic comments about agendas and wind-ups and attention seeking, etc. If you can’t accept that people are providing these comments as their own viewpoints, then it would really be better all round if you did not respond.

Oh, and these jibes about others being "Newcsastle supporters" that are sneaking in today... knock it off, please people. We are Evertonians and anyone who does not respect that fact will be banned from using this forum.

"And Tony Williams, you?re running very close to the line. You can?t stop yourself from offering up these snide little digs instead of sensibly talking about Everton and I am rapidly tiring of this nonsense. I have made it abundantly clear what is and is not acceptable. Abuse of other contributors and askling for them to be banned is not acceptable. Next thing to be banned will be people going on and on endlessly about the posters with whom they disagree, instead of engaging in meaningful discussion"

I will try and discuss this without getting banned then.

These "snide little digs" you talk about have only happened since you continually seem to delete my posts. I note on the "Shattered Dreams" post there were comments made on them, even the ones you banned, yet you delete mine.

My posts have never been offensive, just argumentative about certain points already raised in a thread so it is clear that they are not off topic.

It seems that you don’t agree with my posts, fair enough but to delete them and leave on ones where a poster has used a derogatory term against someone personally is a bit contradictorary.

Engaging in meaningful discuss, what like our manager is a coward and lacks bottle or that Kirkby is a cowshed and the yes voters are all blind sheep who follow Kenwright.

I know I can come across as argumentative and arrogant sometimes but it is a hell of a lot better than bullyish, pedantic and aggressive, as are mny other posters but I don’t see them getting the kind of warnings, I have received in the last three days.

I love the idea of free speech and I agree that a personal witten attack sould not be allowed on here but when I diagree with a poster, why is it I am "running close to the line"?

Yes my last post was a little childish but so are about 60% of the posts on here.

GUILTY AS CHARGED!

I think Moyes is the messiah! I love him to bits, if its so wrong for an EVERTONIAN to appreciate the man who has turned our club around, then......sue me!

Sorry about that last post, just thought I’d join in the fun!

No but really, alot of the points the anti-Moyes posters make I totally agree with, but most I don’t! Simple as! We all have our opinions, now lets all make friends and get along!

Ian, you are not responding to e.mails. You need to contact ToffeeWeb Towers, please. Thanks!

Ronald Kavanagh: "I too believe that this is as good as it gets. He is simply a luckier version of Walter Smith in as much as caution rules all of his thoghts and he has recruited better eprsonnel to achieve his plans."

Give me strength!! Could you please find me a blue with any sense who would welcome Walter Smith back to Goodison in place of Moyes... ridiculous... You say Moyes is lucky; buying a better quality of player isn't down to luck, Moyes chose Arteta, Cahill, Lescott, Howard, Pienaar, Yakubu when all were questioned.

Sadly Moyes is a victim of his own success. Yes, he isn't perfect, he makes mistakes, but he has dragged our great club out the mire. Someone said we have some fans who are acting like Geordie idiots with totally unrealistic expectations of what we are capable of with the money provided by our board. "Nil Satis Nisi Optimum" sadly isn't the case, but stop blaming Moyes.

Take Avram Grant... beautiful football it aint, he doesn't do anything tactically outstanding, but he does have the luck of having a squad that in terms of price and quality dwarfs what Moyes has at hand. Yes, Moyes wasn't perfect tactically, but I would be a harsher judge of him if he had just had the ability to buy a 15 million world class striker as cover!!! Don't get me started on Benitez. Gerard and Torrez have made Benitiez look good, and have digged him out of holes on many an occasion this season(such as Gerard's last minute free kick against Villa at start of the season), yet Moyes still has us above them in the table. Call me easily pleased but i think he deserves some praise.

Moyes isn't praised by many other managers, journos etc. for no good reason, people who can stand back and fairly judge his job at our club can see how far he has taken us, and he himself admits he has made mistakes and there is a way to go. I would much rather continue to back him and see our continuing progression, rather than become the laughing stock of football, like Newcastle, by sacking our manager every season, so that we might magic up a Arsene Wenger clone.

Im a yes Voter.
Why is it that my personal view of things which I consider to be for the good of Everton make me a blind sheep according to our esteemed and knowledagble freind Tony Williams.
Wether I am right or wrong it is MY opinion and I will stand by it. I know for a fact that if we do move I shall still purchase my Season Ticket because I enjoy watching the blues.
But to be constantly berated and have digs thrown by "fellow" Evertonians is quite frankly shallow and pathetic.
By all means disagree as you are entitled to your opinion but even after being told you continue to vent insults because you dont agree with someones opinion.
Thats life Im afraid Tony,get used to it.