ToffeeWeb - Season 2007-08

The Mail Bag

Well done, Agent Wyness, Mission Accomplished

It is not the least bit surprising that Everton and Mr Keith Wyness should resort to threats and menaces to silence opposition to the departure from Liverpool. The club has been less than frank about the stadium move from the very beginning and when deception fails, censorship is often the next move.

The fact is that those forces behind Everton's departure would have no reason to resort to these tactics if their arguments were sound and the benefits of the move obvious. It is because the plan is so deeply flawed and so bitterly opposed that this sort of tactic is necessary.
Peter Fearon, Liverpool Posted 01/04/2008 at 21:22:07

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Robert Carney
1 Posted 01/04/2008 at 22:13:21

Peter, most people hate bullies, The use of libellous laws against opponents wil only raise the hairs on the backs of decent supporters.

Are they getting scared?

The dream move begins to look less promising by the day. The wolves have the hair on their backs standing up now.

Alex Pat
2 Posted 01/04/2008 at 22:23:23

KEIOC, all the bile/slander, finger pointing comes back to bite them on the arse then they try to take the moral highround!!
FFS, barrack room lawyers always come unstuck and thats just what you?ve done.
I hope dearly that he sues your sorry asses and gets you in a courtroom. The open letter is just a ploy to worm out of the situation you realise you got yourself into. You let yourselves be led by scum who?s only interest was self interest ie. i want my pint on County Road and fuck you who think differently. It?s how you come across to the decent majority (and what was that with the plane before a few of the games)!

Your approach has been totally unprofessional, and in my opinion you would be better off disbanding, get rid of the scum, start again but this time get some hard cash from the likes of Bestway and anybody else interested in funding a stadium for Everton, not fanciful words or ideas.. Remember, Everton spoke to Tesco/Knowsley because a whole plan was put forward to them not fanciful words..
And get rid of the County Road bully boys... They make Wyness look like an angel !

Ron Leith
3 Posted 01/04/2008 at 23:07:02

I read the KEIOC open letter and thought what are they on. They go on about the RSS and other planning stuff like they are experts. As a professional planner of over 20 years standing they sound like Manuel from Fawlty Tower ? I no Inglis I lern it from a booook?. All they have achieved by quoting planning policy is to show their ignorance of a complex subject. As for their plane stunt it has not been in evidence lately I miss looking up and thinking what a waste of money. I bet the donations dry up pretty soon and then KEIOC can fall silent and give us all a break they are becoming tedious now.

Barry Scott
4 Posted 01/04/2008 at 23:23:12

Seeing as you are a Chartered Town Surveyor with over 20 years experience, perhaps you should highlight the faults reported on the KEIOC website in a constructive manner.

The money has seemingly been spent on their website, a wise choice in my opinion. It is a lot more informative than it once was even if Mr Wyness doesn’t like the contents.

Robert Carney
5 Posted 01/04/2008 at 23:31:20

Ron Leith, Trevor Skempton is a renowned Stadia architect who worked on many stadiums. HOK a renowned architectural company has worked on many stadiums. Wyness is economical with the truth, what does it take to remove theshit from your eyes?

Gerard Madden
6 Posted 02/04/2008 at 00:40:03

Oh someones mentioned HOK again....that ol’ invisible report chestnut again. I’d just lurve to see a link to that wonderful report. :) It exists you know it really does. :)

Pete Gunby
7 Posted 02/04/2008 at 05:36:35

We don’t have the money for a stadium! The price tag is rising with each passing day and the "Deal of the Century’ is beginning to disintegrate. BK can bs but Tesco are not picking up the entire tab. They will tire of his searches for investors and one day, not too far in the future, the Kirby EverTesco Dome will vanish into the black hole that also houses the Kings Dock Stadium project.
"we tried" and "we gave it our best" we will be told. "The search goes on" and "we’ll never rest" BK and Wyness will chant.
Ten Years from now my son will be telling me about watching us beat the RS at their half completed (lack of funds)Stanley Park Ruins. We will chat about how GP needs a facelift and talk about the protests by the group KEOOD (keep Everton out of Dubai). I’ll tell him not to worry BK won’t be able to raise the funds to help finance the changing rooms(our part of the new 170,000 seat super stadium deluxe).
PS. we will win the Prem. with AVdM coming off the bench for his 1st game in 524 weeks (1 week of sobriety) and scoring a blinder against Prem newcomers
The Dehli Dragons.

Guy Hastings
8 Posted 02/04/2008 at 07:59:33

The move from GP won?t happen. It?s too sensitive at local and national (political) level, Tesco?s bleeding money over their ailing Californian outlets and EFC probably won?t/don?t have the cash to fork out for their share anyway - if the ?ring-fenced? KD millions are anything to go by. The only people who will make anything out of the entire farce will be consultants. And ain?t that the way of the world.

Helen Pull
9 Posted 02/04/2008 at 08:56:28

What does the move by Wyness and Everton say about both its plans and its contempt for the fans?

I don?t understand, especially after the Liverpool banner display on Saturday ?the city is ours?, why Evertonians aren?t up in arms about this. Maybe no one cares that much anymore?

Rob Jones
10 Posted 02/04/2008 at 08:56:50

Of course they have reason to sue without being guilty of the crime, companies sue people for piss take pictures that get a bit too public so why the fuck shouldn’t Everton sue that bunch of gobshites for their BS that the poll was fixed just because they lost, get over it we’ve got a chance to move to a new stadium, I know it will cost over £100m but with the extra revenue from higher capacity and the
facilities around the stadium we would make that back in 3-4 years, just look at Arsenal. KEIOC say that BK and KW are halting our progress and while I’m not too keen on them the group stopping us progressing financially at least is KEIOC, because heres a formula for you
new stadium + less debts = more investors.

Tim Keen
11 Posted 02/04/2008 at 09:17:47

Ron Leith - I think you’ll find the KEIOC group contains people with the same amount of planning experience as you both in active service in planning departments around the region and in the private sector managing planning applications for huge regeneration projects.

Rob Jones - Ha ha ha. "we’d make it back in 3 to 4 years". Ha ha ha ha! I await the mathematics behind this calculation with baited breath!

Rob Bentham
12 Posted 02/04/2008 at 09:40:33

Rob Jones, a revision to your formula:
New stadium = increase in debt

Dean Johnson
13 Posted 02/04/2008 at 10:06:29

I think this whole subject is a farce. Bitching from both sides, speculation rife and mud-slinging from all sides.

All I can say is don?t be goaded by analfield banners, make up your own mind don?t react to petty threats.

This will run and run, who knows if we will ever get a new stadium, whether we will own it, whether it will be too far out etc etc.

Steve Stott
14 Posted 02/04/2008 at 10:59:26

Just a thought - it was a democratic vote which resulted in a resounding Yes vote - don’t forget No votes came third to abstaintions. Wouldn’t it therefore be better for all concerned if KEIOC embraced the fact that they lost and put their effort in starting a dialogue with Everton and all other interested parties, Tesco, Knowsley Council, local residents, supporters to ensure the stadium move is a success and we get the stadium & facilities we believe we deserve.
Seems sensible way forward to me instead of this constant bickering.

Tim Keen
15 Posted 02/04/2008 at 11:49:06

The Kirkby project was flawed from the start and the fact the application is delayed AGAIN today just shows what a waste or time, effort and money by Everton FC this has been.

KEIOC have found alternative sites, engaged with Bestway and LCC (without publically slagging them off, something EFC seem incapable of doing) and pointed out repeatedly the many reasons the Kirkby project is both a financial and planning non-starter.

Kirkby will not happen, wasting club resources on it rather than considering viable alternatives such as a 2 tier Park End or the Loop site is a real scandal.

Lee Spargo
16 Posted 02/04/2008 at 12:30:27

Helen, we never have cared what they say. There’s a song about that you know. Maybe people should take note of it.

Neil Adderley
17 Posted 02/04/2008 at 13:05:10

Ron Leith - a genuine request;

I’m certain the vast majority of Evertonians who continue to contribute to the "Kirkby debate" would be very grateful if you could supply us, in your capacity as a professional planner of over 20 years standing, with a overview/summary regarding the Tesco planning application and ’the relevant planning policy’ etc.

I know speaking for myself, that I would welcome an explanation of the probable strengths/weaknessess of the "Destination Kirkby" proposal.

Thanks in advance.

Ciaran Duff
18 Posted 02/04/2008 at 13:26:13

I posted this on another thread but its probably more relevant here.
Can anyone tell what ulterior motive BK, KW & co. would have for a move to Kirkby? The only options I can think of are :-
1. They are complete incompetents. Maybe but then the club has steadily improved on all fronts since they?ve been here. You?d also have to believe that Moyes & Sir Terence Leahy are also brainless. I don?t think so.
2. They want to increase the value of the club and then sell it off to some rich investor for a handsome profit. If you believe that then you must believe that the move & new stadium will increase our value which presumably is a good thing?
3. They have investigated the options available and believe that this one while not perfect is in the best interest of the club. Crazy talk I know but it just might be true.

ps - Why is nobody up in arms about the Bellefield site planning rejection. Whether you are for or against the move surely the club should be supported in trying to generate money?

Philip Bunting
19 Posted 02/04/2008 at 13:58:27

The way i see it, this move looks like collapsing for various reasons. ie Credit Crunch, Cost of material (steel has shot up 20%) as an example. The actual build cost will rise and rise. Where or what bank will want to lend the amount of money we will require at the moment. The only way i see this as progressing is if Tesco stump up the money! By the way, im neither for or against but my preference is Walton Park! Thats my Dream as a blue.

Steve Williams
20 Posted 02/04/2008 at 13:47:01

First of all - colours to the mast - I voted NO. I did so because I felt the Kirkby project was deeply flawed from many angles.

I do however fully accept that a majority of these who voted, voted YES. I do not like it, but I have to accept it. I even believe the YES voters were misled. But I have to accept it.

The YES voters have many times used the analogy a General Election in that if you voted for a party that loses then you must accept the other side have won and your choice is in opposition. However, the purpose of an opposition is to keep the ruling party honest and true to their word in both the implementation of their manifesto and other decisions taken along the way.

Whilst I’m not part of KEIOC, I do see their role as keeping EFC honest to the information offered at the time of the vote.

So really the YES voters have nothing to bleat about and EFC should really get on with the task of delivering the world class facility at little cost!

Barry Scott
21 Posted 02/04/2008 at 14:51:33

Mr Madden wrote:

"Oh someones mentioned HOK again....that ol? invisible report chestnut again. I?d just lurve to see a link to that wonderful report. :) It exists you know it really does. :)"

It’s funny how the HOK report is referenced several times by the KEIOC website after the club’s solicitors requested amendments. Don’t you think?

Peter Fearon
22 Posted 02/04/2008 at 15:53:45

This is not about caring what the RS say, it’s about caring whether Everton continues to be part of the fabric of life in Liverpool. As for the ballot, we will never know what the result would have been if it had been made clear that other sites, such as Walton Hall Park, were available but that the club was ignoring them because of a prior agreement with Liverpool’s neighboring borough. Remember "There’s No Plan B?" I believe that if a choice of sites had been given many fans who voted for Kirkby would not have done so. The fact is Everton was 100% committed to leaving Liverpool at the outset. I would love to know the real reasons why.

Robert Carney
23 Posted 02/04/2008 at 16:25:16

If they were not so economical with the truth, we would have had no choice but to accept the ballot. Then everyone would have made a personal choice whether or not to attend the proposed new stadium.

I see Madden is using his original pseudonym again.

Bring on Maddocks and Tim Davies to back you up.

Lee Smith
24 Posted 02/04/2008 at 21:56:38

Steve Williams - absolutley brilliant post mate! Sensible, logical, and my thoughts exactly. It seems to me that this is exactly what the KEIOC boys are trying their best to do.

Surely not even diehard Yes voters can argue against that.

Steve Ryan
25 Posted 03/04/2008 at 22:32:04

So Ron Leith, as a planner with 20 years experience, are you saying that contrary to what KEIOC have said, the Kirkby development does actually comply with national planning law?........still waiting for your response. Your silence says everything about the pro-Kirkby contingent; no hard evidence to back up your claims.