Can't we just wait until the end of the season before saying with certainty that "we blew it" and that "our fate is sealed"? I know it doesn't look good for us finishing fourth now but you just sound like you're looking to provoke a reaction with some of the stuff you say, Tony.

I’m sorry, "pissed away our future"? Are you for real? So results and performances have taken a slide since the UEFA cup exit - sickening yes, but understandable considering the amount of stuffing knocked out of the lads by the shootout failure, not to mention the rank spate of recent injuries. Have we not played some of our best football under Moyes at times this season? Will this season be our most succesful so far (points wise) in the PL? If you are failing to see the (albeit slow) improvement, then you must have your hands over your eyes.

David Moyes, though not without his faults, has played a huge role in giving this club a future. Such negativity, in my opinion, reflects an extremely short memory.

Tony, you are pathetic! I bet you threw cushions onto the pitch in the 70’s too. Then again you probably never went. Bob Latchford and Duncan McKenzie were shite, as was Dave Thomas. Mick Lyons had no heart and Andy King was just a ponce.

Remember from 1970 to 1984...................Jack Shit.......................The 90’s Crap (respect to Joe in 95).

The football Moyes has introduced has, for the most part, been a joy to watch. We have a team that scores goals and who try to entertain. We have a dip in form and all of a sudden we are shite! Ask Blues who go the match if they would take 5th NOW and I’d be surprised if there were many who said no.

As much as we would all like to see Everton Football Club at the pinnacle of the Premiership, we are not and the chances are that we will, at best, be hanging on to the shirt-tails of the 4 for the foreseeable future.

I want better, we all do, but until Mr Sugardaddy comes up with the wonga, "it ain’t gonna appen" So, in the meantime lets enjoy what has been served up and on the whole that has not been bad. With 6 games to go we are one point behind our record points tally since the inception of the Prem. Shite? No. Still behind the 4? Yes, but working on it.
NOTHING BUT THE BEST? Absolutley but it ain’t easy.

A few weeks ago after we lost to Fulham I saw the reaction on here from folks like Marsh and tongue in cheek suggested that by their standars the Arsenal fans should be clamouring for Wenger to be sacked. Guess what ?! I was reading some Arsenal forums yesterday and the majority of posters were calling for Wenger to be sacked ! So I guess either more people have unrealistic expectations than I realised or I am an out of touch nutter who thinks it is reasonable to base your expectations on tangible things like the quality of players, the youth set up, long term investment etc etc.

Everyone knows Sunday was shite. So you come on and say I have spoken when we win. It is funny that you never came on when we were enjoying the good football produced after the departure of Irvine. It's not acceptable but probably right to say the team would be deflated after such a good but unproductive finale.

Let us beat Birmingham then go into the Chelsea game with our peckers up. We are due a decent bit of luck against them. With the exception of the second leg cup game we have been very close in our games the last few times around.

Well said Lyndon.

Tony, another "I told you so" post that hopefully will not get the reaction you are hoping for.

The pompous attitude could be better left on the side aswell. So what if people say you don?t post after a win (me included) why come on with the negatives again. We all know it was a terrible performance but so was Sunderland and Bolton away but they still ended up with us getting 3 points and at this stage of this season, I will gladly take 5 more extremely ugly wins.

Tony, you where accused of never posting when there is a positive win. And to be honest I think that is true.

We’ve had some decent wins this season where we have played some decent football and you have been no where to be seen. And yes you’ll say its only the likes of Portsmouth, Man city, West Ham, Sunderland and Spurs etc but there still wins and there was some good and positive football involved in those games. 3 points is three points at the end of the day.

You only seem to post when we play shite and win. That is my view anyway. Like Wigan at the start of the season or Derby yesterday. The only reason you post on these games is to be negative.

There aren’t many deluded fans on here. There are a few YES but the majority are very realistic and make some good points. There not deluded they just have differing opinions to yourself.

At least the supposed deluded fans are fair and make balanced points. They pick out both the positives and negatives about our club and offer there opinion.

Your opinion is always the same and it is quite frankly old and boring. Change your act.

I hate to disagree with the highly accomplished designer of this wonderful website, and the rest of you, but I can?t fault a single word Tony Marsh has written. We had a fabulous opportuniity and we blew it. How true is that? "Moyes is doing a wonderful job..." but he could be doing better, far better, if only he could train them NOT to hoof the ball, if only he could get them to retain possession, if only he could teach them to pass and move, if only he knew a smidgeon about playing attacking football.

But we?re fifth... blah, blah, blah.

Five games to go, three-point gap... we haven’t blown anything until it’s a mathematical certainty.

Now, as I said before, I’m not going to be putting my money where my mouth is because it looks as though Liverpool have sorted out their form and I can’t see us getting a bean from the Chelsea or Arsenal games but can we at least hold the post-mortem when the dream is actually dead?! That’s all :)

A bit extreme as in "blowing our future" , but agree with most of what you?ve written Tony, good post.

"but we’re fifth, blah, blah, blah"

Yes Michael, we are fifth. Who were the two people who insisted the league NEVER lies when we were struggling near the bottom a couple of seasons ago? Well, by sticking to their arguments, we are the fifth best team currently this season. After all, the league never lies.........

Over the previous 10 seasons, Liverpool’s average points total has been 67. Only twice have they broken 70 points. With 5 games left, they are looking like they will do that again.

My point? People go on about how crap Liverpool have done in the league, and how this was our golden chance to snatch 4th. Liverpool quite clearly aren’t doing crap, by their own standards anyway, though obviously relative to the Top 3.

We are where we are, challenging for 4th place on merit, not because Liverpool has performed poorly. It is the form of this team over the entire season which has put us where we are, not just the game you select to reinforce your point, which is becoming tedious, repetitive and boring.

If you are still suffering from your Selective Blindness, you should have gone to Specsavers. The rest of us can see beyond specific games, and will look back on the season with satisfaction.

As for next season, we’ve proven ourselves much more of a team than anything the millions of pounds thrown at Newcastle, Tottenham and Man City have done, so if you’re not looking forward to it, there’s one simple remedy - don’t come to watch them.

So Moyes has raised the bar, punching above his weight, and now a victim of his own success? You just can’t please everyone I suppose.

Has anyone considered we’re ’only’ 5th because of the dire hoofball. So now we want Moyes to completely change his philisophy come the odd games against the RS and Chelsea? Sure if we have some decent ball playing mids. Hey, let’s drop our stewards in Cars, Pip, Jags, Hibs come the sexy games and put them back in against Wigan away. That is if you can find 11 other players anyway.

Or maybe we should hire Ossie Ardiles.

I?ll keep on saying it,

We used to be happy with MEDIOCRE now we are happy with NEARLY OCRE.

The Hoofball is deeply ingrained, just as the guy who went to the Reserves/ Acadamy Derby game reported.

We should get Ossie Ardiles AND Ossie Osbourne, the carrot and the stick.

To be fair, I think Moyes tries, but under pressure people always revert to core values, passers will always pass instead of shooting, shooters will always shoot instead of passing, dribblers will always dribble instead of looking up...and Hoofers will always hoof it!

Ha ha let it go Derek, that phrase will not catch on, good though it is.

Usual MO for the Marshy post, people disagree and some agree and defend him but once again he gets the reaction he hopes for and the traffic on the website sky rockets.

I note that you fail to mention that we are about to score our highest points ever in the Premiership, barring 5 tragic games and have our highest goal difference, but don’t let the truth get in the way of a good rant.

God forbid the table goes to form and the 4 richest clubs with the best players finish in the top 4 positions.

The year we actually finished fourth the redshite had their worst year (in the Prem) for a while, this time whilst we are mathematically still challenging they have one of their better points haul but I can see why this is not good enough for some fans because we have lost to Fulham, who we always get beat by for some bizarre reason and we have been beat at Analfield, where they have only lost to ManUre in the league in two years and we only managed to beat Derby 1-0, which is the same score ManUre beat them.

Strange thing perspective, isn’t it?

I know lets get some expensive defenders & midfielders like newcastle or spurs normally buy (Kaboul, Marcelinho, Caceres, Gilberto, Boumsong, Emre, Robert, Dominguez, Luque) fuck it why stop there lets just spend money we dont have for the sake of it like Leeds did (Wilcox, Fowler, Roque Junior, Raul Bravo etc) and play the beautiful game and finish 10th or 8th or 15th or go down.
How come ex-pros and people in football find it hard to criticise us yet our own fans are starting to sound like Geordies??

We all know we have limited resources and a manager that is shrewd and like most scots (sorry!) thrifty, we are trying to build something here without the cash of Chelsea, or even W.Ham, Pompey, Spurs, Newcastle even Sunderland!!!! The reason for that is to be debated on other threads but despite all that our manager has had a plan and it is to make us hard to beat with a hard working squad which has quality up the pitch to create & take opportunities. Over time we WILL have more quality we will play better football, but he hasnt got a magic fucking wand Marshy, Kenrick & co. Its not like the 80’s when it was an even playing field, the top 4 (CL) clubs will always have an advantage due to resources, quality in depth and numbers of squads. Now we are the closest team to breaking into that little clique, contrary to what the press & rest of country thought at beginning of season yet you still moan??? Its bollocks, Man U drew at boro yesterday, yet we got 3 points there.......my point is you cant win or play well every game. The better teams play less bad games or lose more than the others..........we are getting there, how cant you see this???

Lest we forget, according to www.rightresult.net, we should be 4th by a significant margin.

I couldn?t agree more Lyndon. By Saturday evening we could be level with Liverpool. You might be right Tony/Micheal, maybe at the end of the season we will look back and see we missed out on a fantastic opportunity but until then I can?t for the life of me see the value in stating with such certainty that we blew it. I am going to be positive and I certainly won?t be giving up our season until it is mathematically impossible for us the qualify.

One thing for sure is that Moyes cannot get Everton to play good football with any kind of consistency. If we play a Fulham or a Sunderland at home when we are at full strength and they give us far too much room to play we can show we have players who can play a bit. But the minute we play a quality team or have a few injuries we completely lose our way and fall back on the long ball and giving the ball away too easily.

The midfield and Moyes?s tactics and lack of know how is our problem. Something he can?t learn as he?s shown time and time again. And with ?loan? players who haven?t signed long term contracts and rumours of Arteta, who is played out of position week after week, leaving our future looks as uncertain as ever.

We?re top of the shitty league and in my opinion that?s because the Premier League is shite. I think the FA Cup has shown that this season. And I?ll say again what kind of manager would have Gravesen on the bench if he?s never going to bring him on? If he?s not fit give a youngster a chance if he is fit play him.

Michael K - Do i not remember you saying at the start of the season that only 5th or better would be progress? So if we fifth is it not progress anymore because we almost got 4th?

Tony Marsh Is without doubt, the most miserable, pessimistic, negative, doom mongering git I have ever come across . . . . . he?s also spot on.

David Moyes has done a great job for the vast majority of this season, but when the chips have been down, I mean really down, he?s come up short, faint heart never won fair Maiden, nor did it win a game of football. I know some of you will claim he was unlucky in the way his ranks were depleted against RS, but think back to other pivotal moments of the season, Man U (away) Chelsea (first leg) Arsenal (home) all wonderful opportunities to have made our season so much better, if only we seized the moment, if only we showed that little bit more courage - you know, the stuff that seperates winners and losers - If only we hadnt settled for safety first, who knows ?

TM is right we?ve squandered several marvelous opportunities, if we went for the jugular in just one of the above games we would have been in the driving seat, and maybe have a trophy to show, instead we are left preying for RS to slip up.
Its going to take a lot more bottle to break throught the glass ceiling I just hope we get another shot, but I fear he?s right about that too

We could still finish 4th. Eeven if we finish 5th it shows improvement and for the first time ever in the prem two consecutive top ten finishes. You have to take into account that for the first time in a long time we have had an extended run in Europe, a cup semi-final, a 20-goal-a-season striker and our best points total in the Premier League. I just don?t get the doom and gloom sometimes. I know the motto is only the best will do but Rome wasn?t built in a day. Back the blues.

"I know some of you will claim he was unlucky in the way his ranks were depleted against RS, but think back to other pivotal moments of the season, Man U (away) Chelsea (first leg) Arsenal (home)"

Hmmm I see a pattern formaing, the fact that Moyes has not beat any one of the "Sky 4" this season means he is "faint hearted" (a diluted version of Marshy’s "spineless" and "cowardly" comments).

Looking at the Premiership table, I see that only one or two managers this year have managed to do what we, for some reason, expect Everton to do and if they can’t we are lilly livered?

Strange that.

"Does anyone outside of Everton supporters actually think what we have done in Europe this season has even been noticed by anyone??? "

Clearly Kallstrom does, as he seems to have suggested as much to the media. Also I seem to remember some sort of article from Arshavin’s agent suggesting he would be in favour of a move to Everton.

In the absence of the CL the UEFA is a massive attraction for players, when we talk about class players we always say that they want CL football. It would seem however that they also want to play in a top league, i.e. England, Spain or Italy, given that only 12 teams can qualify each year that means that apparently there are only 132 places for these guys to play in!

My point being there are loads of excellant players out there who don’t currently play for CL sides that would love the opportunity to play at clubs like Everton & Spurs

Let just let Moyes find them.

Well said Bob Turner.

Tony,
You could depress a corpse at a funeral !! I have been one Moyeses biggest critics ,but credit were credit is due we have improved immensely over the past 18 months so much so that "experts" (at what ? ) like yourself can find nothing better to do than moan.
Yes there are several areas were we could improve but where are the world class right backs or midfielders in our price/wage range.
Just do me and everybody else a favour and go and take up skydiving or something.
I’ve nothing but pity for you sunshine you seem to lead a very sad life.
Try having sex with with a woman it may calm you down !
Like I said before we’re not the finished article yet but we’re a damn sight further down the road now than we have been for the last 13 years.
So cheer up Tony Marsh,England have even won a test series abroad you knowe!!
COYB !!

Tony,

I agree with some parts of your article. We have been terrible lately, completely agree. We’ve probably blown it, completely agree again, as we might not get many better opportunities. What we must not forget though, is that the teams above us have better teams, better sqauds, bettter set-ups, etc. because of various reasons, more money, better managers (well not that twat Rafa), bigger fan base, etc. Do people seriously expect us to be challenging for the league, do you reckon the mighty Man U and Arse will roll over for us?? With our resources, 3rd-5th is the best we can expect for now.

As usual Though Tony, you forgot to mention the fact that although we’ve been shite lately, for large periods we were pretty good; you always forget any positives. The way we’ve played lately is not how we normally play.

As for the Uefa Cup, I have enjoyed it and won’t be to gutted if we’re in it, as we’re probably not ready for the CL anyway. We have to remember there are many, many clubs aiming for a small amount of trophies/European qualification. Stop moaning!

Why is it that the only people criticising Everton as a team or the manager is Everton "supporters"? If Spurs were in our position now with all the money they have laid out this season, the London press would now be calling the top of the Premier League ?the big 5 ? Newcastle fans would be clamouring for a knighthood for Keegan but some so called Everton fans want to sack Moyes because we are only 5th with a nett transfer outlay over 6 years of £29m... FFS Spurs spent that much on Bent and Rebrov!! with about 5 goals between them! Get real and look at the full picture, not just a couple of games during our best season in the Premier League.

Tony Williams

I assume if you didn't get to the games I mentioned, you?d have seen them on the box. That said, you?ll know there was a period in all of the games were we should have gone on to win them. We had Chelsea on the rack and down to 10 men FFS. Not sure why you want to bring other teams into it, coz I don't know any that had the top three by the bollocks and blew it every tiime. That, my friend, is what you call strange.

As with all such websites and forums, when the extremes of each side of a particular subject get posted, unsurprisingly they provoke the most responses. It makes them a vibrant read and for most objective people, you can normally pick out points in almost all the posts which you can agree with, without necessarily agreeing with the overall conclusions being reached.

Tony Marsh?s contribution are always going to be negative, but I do still like to hear them, not least because it can help put into perspective my own views, especially when the ?...all?s well in the garden, don?t criticise anyone...? contributors counter with their arguments.

So, we get the ?Hibbo and Pip are crap? posts, which are then countered by the ?...honest players, good hearts, true blues...? posts. You get the ?Arteta?s rubbish now, let?s sell him? posts being opposed by the ?he?s injured, but he?s still our best player? replies. The diametrically opposed views concerning Blue Bill and also the new stadium are probably the most extreme threads of them all. Occasionally, you get a wonderfully balanced post, like Lue?s recent one about the derby day chanting on both sides, but these seem to be the exceptions of late.

Isn?t it obvious that the ?truth? almost invariably lies somewhere between the two extremes, and it is more a case of people deciding if the glass is half-full or half-empty, rather than completely full or empty.

So, it might not be very exciting to state, but I think Davey is doing a good job on limited resources, but he can have a safety-first approach in the big games (especially the Sky 4). I think 5th will be a great achievement and real progress, but I also think we have missed a real opportunity to get 4th due to our recent form. I think injuries have played a part in recent games, but I also think some of our squad are not at the top of game due to tiredness, motivation, quality limitations and/or tactics/selections.

Have we played badly in recent games? Yes. Has some of our play this season been wonderful to watch? Certainly? I think the Uefa Cup has been a positive experience for us this year, but I feel we did dip out earlier than we should have done. Does it compete with the CL for club exposure? Of course not. But ask yourself how many teams dipped out at the pre-qualifying and group stage and were never seen by anyone in the UK on TV - probably quite a few. So much for the exposure these clubs received (although the money?s obviously welcome).

Are we better than we were 6 years ago? Certainly. Are we still knocking on the door of the Sky 4 rather than consistently gaining entrance? Yes. Is Davey the man to take us to the next level? Possibly? Is Blue Bill and the Board going to be able to support him in bringing in the quality we still need in certain departments? Perhaps?

The middle path and the balanced approach might smack of ?wish-washy liberalism?, but I think it reflects the views of most Evertonians at present - and although we can?t claim to be particularly happy about our recent performances (fair point, Tony), we have to see this season as a whole as progress, and if that?s the case, then we need to build on this season, by some suitable squad changes this summer, rather than a clean sweep of players and management.

If next season sees a reverse in our fortunes (mid-table, no serious cup runs, a full-time return to hoofball etc.) despite Davey getting a decent, reasonable transfer kitty - then that?s the time to move towards Tony?s side of the argument. But until then, I?m happy to be in the glass ?two-thirds full? camp at present. COYBs

This club in its present form has gone as far as it is going to go. Simple as that.

5th is the best of the rest and unless we spend like City, Villa, Spurs and Newcastle we are fucked.

How long do you think Lescott will stay........ Not fuckin? long if you ask me.

Andy ’We are fucked’ Callan,

Jesus bloodly wept! A few questions:

Are we progressing steadily?
Are we Liverpool standing still?
If you answer the two questions is yes, as mine would be, then how are we ’fucked’ exactly. This season, and the Moyes reign in general, has provided remarkable progress [apart from the initial yo-yoing]. If this progress, and Liverpool’s lack of progress continue, we will, very shortly [hopefully very shortly indeed] overtake them.

I’ve just about had enough of this shit. Where have you people been for the last twenty years, or did you all turn up in August? I’m concerned about whether the likes of Lescott will stay as well. I hope they don’t visit Toffeweb, because if they do they’ll be penning their transfer requests as I write.

I’ve done this before to emphasise my point, but given some of the shit I’ve been reading recently on here I think its time for another look at the team Walter Mitty put out in the FA Cup quarter-final at Middlesborough just before he got the heave-ho:

Simonsen, Pistone, Stubbs, Weir, Unsworth, Clarke, Gascoigne, Gemmill [Blomqvist 73], Linderoth [Alexandersson 45], Radzinski, Moore [Chadwick 45]. Subs Not Used: Gerrard, Cleland.

Progress?

I seem to remember people saying we were fucked before the start of this season...City, Spurs and West Ham have spent loads, We haven’t spent enough...Yakubu is rubbish...who is Pienaar? How long will we be able to keep hold of Cahill and Arteta? Europe will jeopardise our league form....we never have decent cup runs and so it went...on and on.

The team and Moyes have proved you wrong and still you aren’t satisfied, next year we’ll be rubbish...Lescott will be off (even though he’s just signed a new contract). We’ve exceeded all expectation and yet we’ve blown it.

Some people it is fair to say will never be satisfied.

Tony, it’s fair to say from your posts that you are not happy with how David Moyes runs things at Everton. Fair enough - we’re a broad church and all that.
But please, for once put your criticisms to one side and instead of slating what you don’t like (and to be fair there’s very little that you do seem to like) try to be constructive and answer me this.
What do you think should be done at our club, how should it be done, by whom and how will it be funded?
Over to you, Tony.

Excellant post David Edwards, I couldn’t agree more.

Tony Waverlea, I don't have all the answers mate. I am not paid over a million quid a year to find them either. What I do know is that a great chance has been lost here this season and not too many of us are prepared to stand up and admit it. I repeat, we were 5 points clear of Liverpool a month ago and now we are trailing them.

Games that should easily have been won ie Fulham and West Ham, were thrown away so please don't pretend it doesn't hurt. If you think we are in such good shape go and have a bundle on Everton finishing 4th. You can get 6-1 in some places. Not bad odds in a two-horse race.

Paul McCann - all you have to answer yourself these questions:

Did we finish 4th a couple of seasons back?????? YES.

So if 5th (or worse progress)? Is it shite.

Obviously your are lacking in the brain dept......

I have been going the game since I was 4 and been an Evertonian all my life; I travel 400+ to go the game. So don;t you come tellin’ me that I turned up in August you clown.

Years of false dawns have left me feeling like this.

Answer this as well lad: WIll Everton ever win the league again? Answer: NO, unless we get LOADS of cash from somewhere. Simple as that.,

Deal with it.

Andy Callan,

I didn?t intend to infer that you had just turned up in August mate. What I was saying is that, relitively speaking [compared to some of the shit we?ve all had to sit through, like the Middlesborough team above], we?re progressing. I sometimes can?t believe that people who have been going to the match for years, and have seen year after year of rubbish like I have, can be so defeatest now. Maybe it?s, as you say, too many false dawns.

I don?t think that there?s a fan who thinks that the 2004-05 side is better than this side, so, even though we will probably finish 5th, I believe that we are progressing.

I agree that we need investment, and that without it we won?t win the league again. I feel as shit about that as you do, but I am dealing with it.

I?m just really frustrated that, even though we?ve had reasonable season, and played patches of decent stuff, people go right over the top criticising. Your ?we are fucked? comment just sent me over the edge. I don?t think we are fucked. I believe that Liverpool are catchable in the medium term, and maybe sooner. As David Edwards has said above, despite the last few weeks, which have been piss poor, my glass is still two-thirds full.

Tony, please don’t patronise me: I can read the league table and every poor performance and defeat frustrates and hurts me as much as anyone.
I asked you a simple question and surprise, surprise you admit you haven’t got a clue what could and should be done at Everton.
Why would that be, Tony?
Because it’s easier to moan and cry about the negatives, isn’t it?