The Mail Bag
Manny doubts
Comments (29)
Interesting news, especially for those who, like me, are keen on signing the potential star that is Manuel Fernandes: this evening Valencia have sacked their Spanish Cup-winning manager Ronald Koeman. He has left a team that is 2 points above the relegation zone and experiencing financial difficulties in relation to their new stadium, which, incidentally, looks like a supersized doughnut (possibly designed by H. Simpson Ltd ).
Anyway, to get to the gist of my submission, all this could have implications regarding Manny's possible transfer: Would Valencia be more or less likely to reduce his valuation? Will the new manager want to retain him? Would the player be keen to join us? Interesting times ahead...
Phil Bell, Posted 21/04/2008 at 22:36:46
Comments
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
Brian Waring
2 Posted 22/04/2008 at 08:27:37
2 Posted 22/04/2008 at 08:27:37
At the end of the day, even if we have the money to buy him, would he actually want to join us?
Pete Sully
3 Posted 22/04/2008 at 08:36:38
3 Posted 22/04/2008 at 08:36:38
Yes
Paul OHanlon
4 Posted 22/04/2008 at 08:54:01
4 Posted 22/04/2008 at 08:54:01
£5m for a player they paid £12m for less than a year ago? Whether they’re in financial troubles or not there’s no way they’d take such a loss. They’re not Chelski afterall!
Plus he’s still half owned by a third party company. That, plus the fact that his transfer fee would be closer to the £8m mark, plus the fact that he’s not been great this time round means it’s unlikely we’ll sign him permanently.
Ideal situation for me is to take him on a season long loan again next season, with first refusal to buy. That way they’d be no excuses about injuries causing bad form and we’d really see what he’s made of.
Plus he’s still half owned by a third party company. That, plus the fact that his transfer fee would be closer to the £8m mark, plus the fact that he’s not been great this time round means it’s unlikely we’ll sign him permanently.
Ideal situation for me is to take him on a season long loan again next season, with first refusal to buy. That way they’d be no excuses about injuries causing bad form and we’d really see what he’s made of.
Connor Rohrer
5 Posted 22/04/2008 at 08:59:07
5 Posted 22/04/2008 at 08:59:07
I seriously doubt he’d want to go back to Valencia. He doesn’t like it there and they’ve already got alot of players playing in his position. Éver Banega, Hedwiges Maduro, Sunny etc all spring to mind. The likes of David Albelda who was dropped by Koeman will also be in there. New recruits in the summer aswell.
I think Fernandes’s future lies either with us or someone else but not Valencia.
I think Fernandes’s future lies either with us or someone else but not Valencia.
Harj Badial
6 Posted 22/04/2008 at 09:44:18
6 Posted 22/04/2008 at 09:44:18
Even if it was £8M, we need to buy this guy.... he is pure class when fully fit..... he will be worth £20M when firing on all cylinders !!!!
He is better then Andersson at Man Utd!
He is better then Andersson at Man Utd!
Davey Militwitch
7 Posted 22/04/2008 at 09:44:41
7 Posted 22/04/2008 at 09:44:41
I would structure a deal that would suit both parties. 5-6 million pre-agreed fee, subject to another year long loan with us paying his wages.
If he fulfills his undoubted potential, that would be a small price to pay for a potential world class player.
Jason Lam
8 Posted 22/04/2008 at 09:51:30
8 Posted 22/04/2008 at 09:51:30
How about a swap deal, we get Manny, they get Neville, Cars, Anichebe? We’ll throw in the train tickets.
Rob Hollis
9 Posted 22/04/2008 at 11:37:59
9 Posted 22/04/2008 at 11:37:59
By the time our board get around to it Valencia will have built and paid for the new stadium and Fernandes will be at least thirty years old.
This season was a few games in before we finished the signings which cost us points no doubt. It is bloody depressing.
This season was a few games in before we finished the signings which cost us points no doubt. It is bloody depressing.
Anton Holmes
10 Posted 22/04/2008 at 11:46:30
10 Posted 22/04/2008 at 11:46:30
Would he not be playing better if he wanted to stay or was committed? He is not as good as last year, and really messed us around so what has changed? Maybe a manager he likes will go to Valencia, then what? Forget last season ? show me something more substantial second time around, or a loan-to-buy deal, but not £8 to £12 million.
Dominic Duerden
11 Posted 22/04/2008 at 12:23:59
11 Posted 22/04/2008 at 12:23:59
Jason, you forgot Hibbert .. we should make him drive to Valencia .. though he probably couldn?t do that either
Paul Lenehan
12 Posted 22/04/2008 at 12:29:52
12 Posted 22/04/2008 at 12:29:52
I would doubt Valencia would find any club who would pay 12 million. So they are going to have take a loss. 5 million would be excellant value. With a pre season behind him I would expect to a player more like the one from last year.
Connor Rohrer
13 Posted 22/04/2008 at 12:45:28
13 Posted 22/04/2008 at 12:45:28
I doubt we?ll get him for £5 million. Not a realistic price at all. £7/8 million will be the more likely price and in my opinion he?d be worth it.
But it all comes down to the budget we get. If where getting £25-30 million this season then I?d buy Manny but if it's £15-20 then it could be a gamble as we do need depth aswell.
But it all comes down to the budget we get. If where getting £25-30 million this season then I?d buy Manny but if it's £15-20 then it could be a gamble as we do need depth aswell.
Steve Williams
14 Posted 22/04/2008 at 12:58:02
14 Posted 22/04/2008 at 12:58:02
Emporer’s New Clothes spring to mind.
This guy has some talent but nowhere near enough commitment and balls to make a real go of centre mid in England. Even last season when he was fully fit and firing on all cylinders, he failed to dominate games. Anything more than £5m is extravagence that we just can’t afford. I suspect that Valencia are paying the £12m over the life of player’s contract (as is usual on the continent) so would still owe an unhealthy chunk of that fee. Therefore irrespective of how strapped they may be, Valencia wouldn’t let him go for anything less that £8m - £9m so that MUST rule us out. Please!
This guy has some talent but nowhere near enough commitment and balls to make a real go of centre mid in England. Even last season when he was fully fit and firing on all cylinders, he failed to dominate games. Anything more than £5m is extravagence that we just can’t afford. I suspect that Valencia are paying the £12m over the life of player’s contract (as is usual on the continent) so would still owe an unhealthy chunk of that fee. Therefore irrespective of how strapped they may be, Valencia wouldn’t let him go for anything less that £8m - £9m so that MUST rule us out. Please!
Robbie Muldoon
15 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:06:51
15 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:06:51
David Moyes won’t sign Manny in the summer. Just my opinion like, but I fully expect dithering davey to cock this one up without fail.
jayharris
16 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:08:28
16 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:08:28
My understanding is there is no third party ownership.Valencia bought all the players rights so any price would be full transfer not part ownership.
With the Eoro getting stronger I doubt whether Valencia would accept 5 million I think it would take at least 10 to get him.
IMO he’s worth that.He’ the only world class central MF I ’ve seen at GP recently and could be the catalyst for getting rid of hoofball.
If we had the money to buy him last August we should have the money with interest now plus the 5 mill plus from Faddy.
BK has no excuses this time.
With the Eoro getting stronger I doubt whether Valencia would accept 5 million I think it would take at least 10 to get him.
IMO he’s worth that.He’ the only world class central MF I ’ve seen at GP recently and could be the catalyst for getting rid of hoofball.
If we had the money to buy him last August we should have the money with interest now plus the 5 mill plus from Faddy.
BK has no excuses this time.
Andy Brittenden
17 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:11:23
17 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:11:23
I too have my doubts that Valencia would let him leave for any less than what they paid for him. It was Koeman that wanted him out and now he’s gone what is to stop the new manager just recalling him from the loan spell.
I’m also convinced that we are not gonna get much more to spend that 20 million (i.e about what we had last year) and I would concentrate on looking elsewhere. Especially since we have been linked at least two more quality midfielders who really could do the job in Arshavin and Kallstrom. I reckon they would cost about 8 million each which leaves enough to look at either Bradley or Howard. All those names tick a lot of boxes for me, especially Arshavin since he has looked good in so many different positions this season i.e striker, centre mid or wing.
I’m not too worried about the right back slot yet since a lot of people seem to think that Gosling is the man to fill that slot long term with Hibbert or Neville in reserve.
I think that is what we might see, three signings of quality rather than quantity.
I’m also convinced that we are not gonna get much more to spend that 20 million (i.e about what we had last year) and I would concentrate on looking elsewhere. Especially since we have been linked at least two more quality midfielders who really could do the job in Arshavin and Kallstrom. I reckon they would cost about 8 million each which leaves enough to look at either Bradley or Howard. All those names tick a lot of boxes for me, especially Arshavin since he has looked good in so many different positions this season i.e striker, centre mid or wing.
I’m not too worried about the right back slot yet since a lot of people seem to think that Gosling is the man to fill that slot long term with Hibbert or Neville in reserve.
I think that is what we might see, three signings of quality rather than quantity.
mike dyer
18 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:18:26
18 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:18:26
Andy B and Steve I think you both have it spot on there.
My understanding of the original Manny deal was that to buy both halves was gonna by something like 18 million. I just can’t see Valencia accepting anything less than 10-12. I also was on the the understanding that it was the Valencia chairman or someone like that who brokered the deal giving the impression that it was them that wanted him but Koeman that didn’t.
I think for all his talent he represents a risk at the moment and while his performances are been improving with some flashes of genius I’m not convince he is showing signs that Everton is where he wants to be. Arshavin and Kallstrom have both been quoted as being very interested in coming to us, more so Arshavin. I think that both would be available for 8 million and I believe that Arshavin is a more versatile player than manny (albeit he is not a direct comparison as he is more of an attacking player).
My understanding of the original Manny deal was that to buy both halves was gonna by something like 18 million. I just can’t see Valencia accepting anything less than 10-12. I also was on the the understanding that it was the Valencia chairman or someone like that who brokered the deal giving the impression that it was them that wanted him but Koeman that didn’t.
I think for all his talent he represents a risk at the moment and while his performances are been improving with some flashes of genius I’m not convince he is showing signs that Everton is where he wants to be. Arshavin and Kallstrom have both been quoted as being very interested in coming to us, more so Arshavin. I think that both would be available for 8 million and I believe that Arshavin is a more versatile player than manny (albeit he is not a direct comparison as he is more of an attacking player).
Steve Williams
19 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:33:38
19 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:33:38
Don’t know much about Kallstrom, so can’t really comment. But I have followed Arshavin since he was the best player on the park at GP against us. He really is the real deal. It would be fantastic to get him, but I suspect it would take £12m - £13m to get him and lots of other clubs would be interested so we’d have to do it quickly.
No contest vs. MF!
No contest vs. MF!
Connor Rohrer
20 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:42:49
20 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:42:49
Steve Williams, you’ve got to be realistic though. None of our midfielders dominate games and we couldn’t attract a midfielder who could dominate games on a regular basis. These types of players go to the bigger more successful teams and thats just the way it is.
At Everton we can attract two types of players. Good experienced players like Pienaar and Arteta or potentially excellent players like Fernandes. I personally would take a gamble on Fernandes. Even if he doesn’t reach his potential he still is alot better than what we currently have.
Fernandes is the only Everton player since the 80s who has been able to dictate games when he’s in full flow. I watched the Arsenal game not so long ago of last season and there where spells in the game where Fernandes was dictating. Anyone who watched us at Goodison against Chelsea in the second half when he moved centrally would also have witnessed a midfielder demanding the ball and trying to push us forward.
Yes I agree he isn’t an aggressive player and his laid back attitude sometimes gives you the feeling that he doesn’t care but you can’t doubt the lads ability or willingness to get on the ball.
He drops deep and demands the ball of the back line and that is something we haven’t got in our team. Arteta doesn’t do it as shown in the Liverpool game when he played centrally and Osman doesn’t do it either.
He’s worth alot more than 5 million. Championship players go for 5 million and Fernandes is far from a Championship player.
At Everton we can attract two types of players. Good experienced players like Pienaar and Arteta or potentially excellent players like Fernandes. I personally would take a gamble on Fernandes. Even if he doesn’t reach his potential he still is alot better than what we currently have.
Fernandes is the only Everton player since the 80s who has been able to dictate games when he’s in full flow. I watched the Arsenal game not so long ago of last season and there where spells in the game where Fernandes was dictating. Anyone who watched us at Goodison against Chelsea in the second half when he moved centrally would also have witnessed a midfielder demanding the ball and trying to push us forward.
Yes I agree he isn’t an aggressive player and his laid back attitude sometimes gives you the feeling that he doesn’t care but you can’t doubt the lads ability or willingness to get on the ball.
He drops deep and demands the ball of the back line and that is something we haven’t got in our team. Arteta doesn’t do it as shown in the Liverpool game when he played centrally and Osman doesn’t do it either.
He’s worth alot more than 5 million. Championship players go for 5 million and Fernandes is far from a Championship player.
Guy Wilkinson
21 Posted 22/04/2008 at 14:02:47
21 Posted 22/04/2008 at 14:02:47
That valencia stadium is superb, football porn..
Steve Williams
22 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:58:13
22 Posted 22/04/2008 at 13:58:13
Connor, I said the guy had some talent, don’t make out I haven’t recognised that.
But he doesn’t dictate games: Derby (one pass doesn’t mean he dictates games), Birmingham, West Ham, Brann etc etc.
I agree that others don’t pick up the mantle, but you can’t use that as an argument. Just because others don’t, doesn’t excuse him - he’s our playmaker after all. MF is only the player he is - if that’s controlling games consistently then he’s a PL player, if he isn’t (and he doesn’t) then he’s not the player for us at this stage in our development. We’ve already got enough of those that don’t work that way, we can’t afford to splash £8 - £9m on another.
But he doesn’t dictate games: Derby (one pass doesn’t mean he dictates games), Birmingham, West Ham, Brann etc etc.
I agree that others don’t pick up the mantle, but you can’t use that as an argument. Just because others don’t, doesn’t excuse him - he’s our playmaker after all. MF is only the player he is - if that’s controlling games consistently then he’s a PL player, if he isn’t (and he doesn’t) then he’s not the player for us at this stage in our development. We’ve already got enough of those that don’t work that way, we can’t afford to splash £8 - £9m on another.
Paul Thompson
23 Posted 22/04/2008 at 14:21:24
23 Posted 22/04/2008 at 14:21:24
Many of the same people who are so ready to criticise Moyes and any number of players seem to have a bit of a blind spot with Fernandes. The occasional flash of real skill is elevated over his attitude (inconsistent at best, uninterested at worst) and performance (continually caught in possession, off the pace etc). Now it may be that over a longer period of time he will come good, starting this weekend. But I doubt it - I think the problem is in this guy’s head, not his feet. He would be a big risk given our limited budget. I suspect that there are better outlets for our money,
Connor Rohrer
24 Posted 22/04/2008 at 14:16:52
24 Posted 22/04/2008 at 14:16:52
Steve, I?m not trying to make out like you think he hasn?t got any talent. If your getting that impression I apoligise.
The games you have mentioned there are tough to judge. For the Brann, Birmingham and Derby games he played on the wing for the majority of the games. Very few players dictate from the wing in world football. Zidane was one of the few who where able to do that. The West Ham game was also his first game back after three weeks out and he came on 15 minutes into the game.
I watch games after we play and there have been times where Manuel has dictated games. Arsenal last season for periods, Chelsea for periods in the first 60 minutes, his debut against Blackburn and Portsmouth in the second half second to last game of the season. I?m not saying he dominated for 90 minutes because he doesn?t but the signs where there that he is capable of doing it.
Considering he?s only 21/22 that is promising in my opinion. If Moyes does get him for a longer period then it will obviously be up to him to make Fernandes do it over 90 minutes instead of periods in games. If he can do then we could have an excellent player on our hands.
"We've already got enough of those that don't work that way, we can't afford to splash 8 - 9m on another."
Why not? Are we really going to be attracting major talent in the summer. I very much doubt it. Where just about going to finish in the Uefa Cup and there?s even doubts over that. People keep on going on about these two quality midfielders where going to buy but it won?t be the case. There are only certain players we are able to sign and not all of them are going to be quality.
I?m just trying to be realistic. Fernandes is a talented player and he?s got time on his side to adapt and nurture his talent. He could be one for now and the future. He?s also very realistic.
If Andy Johnson is worth £8.6 million and Leighton Baines is worth £6 million then I have no doubts that Fernandes is worth £8 million.
The games you have mentioned there are tough to judge. For the Brann, Birmingham and Derby games he played on the wing for the majority of the games. Very few players dictate from the wing in world football. Zidane was one of the few who where able to do that. The West Ham game was also his first game back after three weeks out and he came on 15 minutes into the game.
I watch games after we play and there have been times where Manuel has dictated games. Arsenal last season for periods, Chelsea for periods in the first 60 minutes, his debut against Blackburn and Portsmouth in the second half second to last game of the season. I?m not saying he dominated for 90 minutes because he doesn?t but the signs where there that he is capable of doing it.
Considering he?s only 21/22 that is promising in my opinion. If Moyes does get him for a longer period then it will obviously be up to him to make Fernandes do it over 90 minutes instead of periods in games. If he can do then we could have an excellent player on our hands.
"We've already got enough of those that don't work that way, we can't afford to splash 8 - 9m on another."
Why not? Are we really going to be attracting major talent in the summer. I very much doubt it. Where just about going to finish in the Uefa Cup and there?s even doubts over that. People keep on going on about these two quality midfielders where going to buy but it won?t be the case. There are only certain players we are able to sign and not all of them are going to be quality.
I?m just trying to be realistic. Fernandes is a talented player and he?s got time on his side to adapt and nurture his talent. He could be one for now and the future. He?s also very realistic.
If Andy Johnson is worth £8.6 million and Leighton Baines is worth £6 million then I have no doubts that Fernandes is worth £8 million.
Steve Williams
25 Posted 22/04/2008 at 15:05:19
25 Posted 22/04/2008 at 15:05:19
Ok Connor, fair enough - I understand where you are coming from - its just that I don’t agree.
My point about MF being the same as others who also don’t dictate games, is that if we are to spend a large chunk of our summer war chest on one player, then I’d like that player to be different to the rest. I just don’t see that MF fills this criteria and therefore spending that size of fee (and wages) on a ’HOPE’ is just too big a risk.
I supppose if he had shown something (anything) this season I may find it easier to accept.
Anyway, notwithstanding this, I’ll still be cheering my heart out for MF and everyone else to produce the win that is a must this Sunday.
My point about MF being the same as others who also don’t dictate games, is that if we are to spend a large chunk of our summer war chest on one player, then I’d like that player to be different to the rest. I just don’t see that MF fills this criteria and therefore spending that size of fee (and wages) on a ’HOPE’ is just too big a risk.
I supppose if he had shown something (anything) this season I may find it easier to accept.
Anyway, notwithstanding this, I’ll still be cheering my heart out for MF and everyone else to produce the win that is a must this Sunday.
Connor Rohrer
26 Posted 22/04/2008 at 15:23:39
26 Posted 22/04/2008 at 15:23:39
Steve, I think Fernandes is different personally. Alot of people have discussed and argued about what his position is. Some think he’s an attacking player whereas some think he’s a defensive/holding midfielder.
I have always said he is a deep lying play maker. His job is to play in front on the back four and bring people into the game with his passing. Sadly our long ball system of late has limited his chance of doing this but I definatly think its his style.
If you look at his passing he does have alot more vision than anyone in our team. The passes he fizzes from deep to the likes of Yakubu and Johnson’s feet are class and he is the only player in our squad who seems capable of passing long. Just my opinion like.
I agree it does depend on the budget really. As much as I rate Fernandes I don’t want to be spending half our budget on him unless where desperate. Where in need of depth so that would be stupid. If we get a reasonable budget and he is going for a reasonable price then I’d sign him.
I have always said he is a deep lying play maker. His job is to play in front on the back four and bring people into the game with his passing. Sadly our long ball system of late has limited his chance of doing this but I definatly think its his style.
If you look at his passing he does have alot more vision than anyone in our team. The passes he fizzes from deep to the likes of Yakubu and Johnson’s feet are class and he is the only player in our squad who seems capable of passing long. Just my opinion like.
I agree it does depend on the budget really. As much as I rate Fernandes I don’t want to be spending half our budget on him unless where desperate. Where in need of depth so that would be stupid. If we get a reasonable budget and he is going for a reasonable price then I’d sign him.
Mike Oates
27 Posted 22/04/2008 at 15:25:45
27 Posted 22/04/2008 at 15:25:45
I think Fernandes has to improve a hell of a lot to cut it as a Premiership midfield player. He has undoubtedly got class, particularly with his range of passing but he looses the ball too often in dangerous places and he hasnt got that energy level or the commitment needed to compete for 90 mins every game (by the way Anichebe also has this major problem)
I would seriously love it if he shows any semblance over the next 3 games to demonstrate that these shortfall can be overcome but Moyes wont pay over the odds for him.
I’m sure he’s a fallback option in that if Moyes cant get a top flight centre midfield player (Arshavin mentioned today) then he would probably be willing to pay £6m ish and certainly not £12m now that he’s had another 6 months to see his shortfalls.
I would seriously love it if he shows any semblance over the next 3 games to demonstrate that these shortfall can be overcome but Moyes wont pay over the odds for him.
I’m sure he’s a fallback option in that if Moyes cant get a top flight centre midfield player (Arshavin mentioned today) then he would probably be willing to pay £6m ish and certainly not £12m now that he’s had another 6 months to see his shortfalls.
Connor Rohrer
28 Posted 22/04/2008 at 17:33:49
28 Posted 22/04/2008 at 17:33:49
Arshavin isn’t a centre midfielder. He’s a second striker who can play on the wing if needed. He’s far to lightweight to be playing centre midfield in England and doesn’t even do it in Russia.
Danny Latham
29 Posted 25/04/2008 at 12:15:51
29 Posted 25/04/2008 at 12:15:51
If we get Fernandes for any less than £8 million I will have my hair styled like him ? I would look more like rick waller though but hey, needs must!
Chuffed about Peanuts ? love his vision and willingness to try something new.
Chuffed about Peanuts ? love his vision and willingness to try something new.
© ToffeeWeb
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
1 Posted 22/04/2008 at 06:35:38
In defence of Koeman: He only joined Valencia in October so I don’t believe he has anything to do with them struggling financially. He managed to get them from Champions League contenders to relegation strugglers though.
And another off-topic remark: I love their new stadium design. You can call it a doughnut but I would take it over the standard league-one-type stadium design of the Kirkby-dome...