ToffeeWeb - Season 2007-08

Michael Kenrick

Absolutely with you there, Mick. I really thought Evertonians were made of better stuff but all along we have countless posts making the same old excuses, accepting these defeats as minor setbacks ("a bad day at the office") when for me (just like you) they are defining the season.

We could have and should have done so much better. Nothing any one of these perennial apologists says will disuade me from that knowledge ? knowledge gained not by listening to their splineless blather but from watching the team play and knowing that, in these games you list, they could have played better. They are capable of it. Moyes has even had them doing it. But his defensive negativity and failure to fully motivate the team when it really matters is what I will take away from this season.

Tony Williams
1 Posted 04/05/2008 at 18:33:57

Michael it?s quite ironic that you say "from watching the team play" when haven?t you confirmed that you no longer go the match?

It also seems that you are being a tad offensive by labelling the posters who don?t toe the anti-Moyes partyline spinless.

Mick you are using the 1 in 8 and the 1 point out of 24 against the top 4; however, I prefer to see the 18 wins out of 37 statistic and the 29 wins out of 52, not great but certainly a fairer reflection than just pointing to our bad run of late.

I am defensive of my team, as I love them and I will continue to defend them til my last breath, whenever Moyes stops progressing. Yes, he has progressed, possible 5th, more points and a better cup run, I will then consider new management but as he is still progressing, it seems not fast enough for most on here, I will continue to give him my support.

David Flanagan
2 Posted 04/05/2008 at 18:36:19

I can see both sides of the argument here. Firstly I was fortunate enought to be around when we had a great side in the 80s when winning was all important. As quickly as it came, it went... due to mis-management and lack of forward thinking at board level... sound familiar? I too think a great season means a trophy a the end.

In the other corner the younger supporters will have been brought up on Kendall Mark 2 and 3 and Mike Walker followed by Walter Smith where fighting relegation was the only aim. Until they believe we have a chance and, more importantly, convince the manager, it will be difficult to improve beyond where we are now.

I would have to agree that Moyes is negative in outlook especially in the big games. That will have to change quickly.

Alan Clarke
3 Posted 04/05/2008 at 18:42:58

I really have tried to stick up for Moyes this season. I?ve really wanted to believe that finally we?re on the road to recovery and Moyes is the right man to take us there. I?ve been so negative during Moyes?s time in charge that a glimmer of better football from our team earlier in the season started to give me more hope that Moyes was the right man.

Now I am sick to death of it. I am absolutely sick of his shite negative clueless fucking tactics. When was the last time we actually played any decent football? This end-of-season loss of form is now more than a ?blip? which I originally thought. One win in 8 which was a poor performance against the worst team ever in the Premier League. Fuck off, Moyes!

Michael Kidd
4 Posted 04/05/2008 at 18:45:24

I think very few so-called Moyes apologists think he is perfect, or can’t see his faults. But I think we have to be realistic and give credit where it’s due. No matter what we might like to think (and hark back to), we are no longer part of the big four and there is one reason for this. It has been said again and again - the game has changed because of money. I think there is credit in coming first out of the top four (which we have to wrap up next week).

Having said that, a bit of extra cash and a few signings where we need them and we could challenge Liverpool for fourth position and compete better against the top three.

Richard Murray
5 Posted 04/05/2008 at 18:55:29

Rome was not built in a day.

Connor Rohrer
6 Posted 04/05/2008 at 18:55:55

ToffeeWeb is a negative site and it is hard to get balanced views in my opinion. I like negative views if they?ve got a point but a lot of people just be negative for the sake of it and follow the trend.

It seems completely different to any other forum or fan site on the web aswell.

Lyndon Lloyd is a quality poster and tells it as it is. I do enjoy reading his posts. One of the main reasons I come on here.

Chris Brad
7 Posted 04/05/2008 at 18:48:39

As soon as the team was announced today with Hibbert in from the start, Neville in midfield, and our top scorer dropped to the bench, I feared the worst. After a decent game last week v Villa, Moyes for some reason today decides to mess around and alter the team. No, either he had some kinda game plan to subdue Arsenal... or he hadn't a fucking clue what he was doing. I go with the latter.

We have been shit against all the top sides this season and took just 1 point and that was at Chelsea, and anyone who saw that game will know that we were under the cosh all game and were lucky to get a point. Against average teams like Reading, Fulham and West Ham we played terrible and lost two of those and drew the other two.

We've been lucky that Pompey, Man City and Blackburn have been as inconsistent as us or we'd be hovering mid-table. The point I'm making is we haven't moved forward any from last year. Maybe it is time for a change at the helm.

Joe McMahon
8 Posted 04/05/2008 at 18:56:29

I’m with you Alan Clarke all the way. One win in 8 against the worst team in premiership history (even that was 1 - 0) He (Moyes) is so negative, he knew what we had to do, WHY can we not just go for a win?? The football is on the biggest downward spiral I have seen since the last time 2 years ago, with out all time scoring low. I want an attacking manger in, a manager who know’s how to change a game with the correct substitions not with 10 minutes to go.

I will get slated for this but, Paul Ince anyone? A man who has played at the highest level, and who knows about playing in big games. A man who has played for Man U, Inter Milan and captian England. Not Preston & Shrewsbury is it.

John Martin
9 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:00:08

I think the majority of fans are just a bit more realistic than the original poster, while we would all love to challenge for the title and win cups every year, its hard near impossible now due to finances, Back in the glory days players were all more or less paid the same so players would go to clubs to get 1st team football, now players will sit in chelsea reserves on 80K a week than play for Everton which is why there squads are so strong.
I think there is a lot of things that need putting right at Everton including Moyes being more positive against the top 4, but this season has been good and definatly could have been even better but there have been reasons.
Key injuries being the main but the biggest reason we are only 5th is the top 4 are all a lot better than us.

Michael Kenrick
10 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:04:10

So ToffeeWeb is a "negative site"??? And Moyes is a negative manager! Ideal pairing, methinks!!A more apt description would be "realistic".

I think it?s a pity that you don?t believe people?s posts are genuine and of their own making. Mine are, and I certainly believe yours are too. So why the "bandwagon" comment, Connor? I do what I can to ensure above all that genuine fans (who are prepared to identify themselves consistently) are posting their genuine feelings or opinions on here. We actually get a wide spectrum, so to label the site as "negative" is somewhat questionable, to say the least.

Some fans, like me, expect us to go out and at least try to win the game. Daft, I know, but I was brung up to believe that was the point of playing. If it's not, then fair enough; we are expecting too much. But please explain the new paradignm to me where we are supposed to be happy when we lose... "I was happy today" Are you insane!!

Adam Carey
11 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:03:15

Mick, rather than sit and take being labelled a wimp I thought I’d add some perspective and a little realism to your tirade.

1>The top 4 are now in a position to be realistically out of reach. They have more money, better players ergo...
2>We were outplayed twice and lost. It happens. Also, see point 1.
3> Small squad, all knackered, playing not too lose. Not sure if you’ve ever played football, and if so you’ll know when the tanks empty, that’s it.
4> Look at the two finalists, or even the semi final line up. Top teams fell every round.
5>A poor first leg fucked us in the end. Welcome to knockout competitions.
5> The team that knocked us out just booked a place in the CL final and are still playing for the League title.

Before anyone berates me for not using the Nil Satis mantra, welcome to the modern game! I hate it as much as the rest but I’d rather watch my team finish ’top of the rest’ than not bother with football at all.

Jay Wilson
12 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:05:06

Just rolling out the same old anti-Moyes rubbish. This ?once great club? tagline is a little weary. The truth is we haven?t been great...not really, not since Dixie...save about 6 years in between. The great team of the 80s only lasted for 3 years!!! The United team of Ferguson has been great for 15 years... The Liverpool side of the 70s and 80s was great for 15+ years. If you know your history? Don?t make me laugh... most people weren?t alive when we were consistently great.

Moyes is at present building a team to challenge. We aren?t there yet... not by a long way but we are much further down the road than when we started. Our small squad of ?weak players? as has been written today have managed to win 29 out of 52 games. Not bad if you ask me.

As I?ve put in another post, take the 2 most effective players out of any side and they?ll struggle. We at present are missing our 2 most effective players. Let?s look at the bigger picture and have some perspective.

Connor Rohrer
13 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:15:08

Just my opinion Michael. I enjoy the site or I wouldn’t post on it but I do feel people jump on the bandwagon and be negative without giving proper or interesting points.

As I’ve said just my opinion. Every site has its positives and negatives I suppose.

Michael Kenrick
14 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:20:23

Connor, What do you mean by "bandwagon"? It?s a discussion forum. We are discussing the game. We lost. Some people are unhappy about that. You ? incredibly ? are actually happy! I found that astounding but nevertheless, back to the point here. It?s post-match analysis.... We post what we think. Why are some on a bandwgon while others are presumably genuine in their observations?

Steve Grimshaw
15 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:07:56

I am not a big one for statistics. But I do find it rather ironic, that with a possible 5th place finish, we have the 3rd worst performance in the premiership against the top four clubs. Only Derby county and Sunderland have a worse record against them!! Fulham and Newcastle have the same grand total of one point. But Newcastle may be able to better that performance against Chelsea tomorrow. Furthermore I was not to suprised with the final result today, as Moyes was quite content to play for a draw at the outset. But giving Arsenal 72% of the possesion as it was at one point is not likely to result in a draw. I would have much rather seen an Everton side going down fighting to the very last, but they just looked burnt out to me. Sorry about these depressing thoughts and stats!

Mick Wrende
16 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:15:28

Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions but the two comments above by Adam and Jay are so typical of the spineless comments we get from Evertonians.

Adam - why exactly do you glibly accept that we got knocked out of the FA Cup to Oldham because Moyes couldn't be arsed and played 5 reserves? Yes, the big teams have been knocked out so why arent we at Wembley?

Jay ? once you have tasted glory you want it again. We could easily have won the Uefa Cup this season. For heavens sake, Rangers are in the final so why aren't we? That has nothing to do with the top 4 and it has nothing to do with being great in the past. But you guys just accept it and say haven't we done well to finish 5th or 6th. For fucks sake please have a bit more ambition than that.

Jay Wilson
17 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:31:34

We?re not in the Uefa Cup fianl because we lost on penalties and Rangers didn?t, shit happens... it?s not spineless just realistic... after all it is only football. I follow it because it's fun!!!

Barry Blackmore
18 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:20:07

FFS. Some of the people on here need to get a grip. Fair enough we?ve had some dissappointing results this season, and with a bit more luck (e.g. penalty shoot-outs) we could have MAYBE won something. But the simple fact of the matter is, MONEY talks. We ain?t got enough to be shitting out trophies left right and centre. Fact. Deal with it. We?ve had a decent season, which may not sit well with those of us who rember the glory days of the 80s. But a lot has changed in the game (not just the dissappearance of the perm).

Rather than the constant blood-letting of Moyes's supposedly inferior tactical acumen and the players technical limitations (which I concur exist to some extent), I think it?s obvious any constructive frustration regarding our short- to long-term future should sit firmly in the lap of that big fat tart Kenwright et al.

Connor Rohrer
19 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:41:03

Michael Kenrick, I?m not happy with the result I?m happy with the performance. It was a joy to see some joined-up football considering the football of late.

I am also happy with the season. Our aim was to finish in Europe and it looks like we are going to. If we don?t then I?ll be disappointed.

What where your expectations? Have we fulfilled them this season?

My bandwagon comment was probably a bit out of line. I apoligise for that. I respect others opinions.

Jay Harris
20 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:20:53

As someone said earlier, let's have a bit of perspective. We are all disappointed about today especillay given the team he put out and therefore expect a lot of negative views and those wishing to reinforce those views with 6 points out of the last 24 type quotes.
A few months ago some of those same posters were going to get 3rd, win the Carling and Uefa Cups and thrash the RS at Anfield and we asked for a bit of perspective then.

IMO we will not do better either under Moyes or any other mug that would come to EFC until we get a proper board managing the club.

Without proper investment(which we now see was never sought 24/7... in fact, quite the reverse!) and good operational management, no club can win honours, let alone challenge the top 4.

We (and Moyes) knew our squad was too small at the beginning of the season and we take too much out of players in the first two thirds of EVERY season under Moyes because we make up for lack of talent with hard graft.

We also lost 2 key players at the wrong time (imagine the RS without Gerard and Torres for 3 or 4 months)and let Faddy go (love him or hate him)without getting an adequate replacement.

All of that meant players have had to play with injuries or fatigue when in any other squad they might have been rested.

Now to my biggest criticism of Moyes. It's not that I think he is deliberately negative. I think he doesn't have sufficient trust in the players and is therefore too cautious.

I also think we did not sign Fernades last August and let Faddy go without replacement because we don't have the money and I believe Moyes has had enough of the bullshit and demanded to see some of the Sky money that HIS team have earned to build a proper squad for next year.

Even though I feel we could have achieved more this year, I am not overly disappointed if we achieve fifth.

I will however be right in the NSNO club next year if we:

1.Fail to make a few high quality signings in the summer.

2.Don't play PROPER football more often next season.

3.Continue to panic when we play top teams.

4. Ever play Carsley and Neville again together in MF.

5.Collapse again in the final third of the season.

Barry Cass
21 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:40:28

Barry you have hit the nail firmly on the head with the last line of your post. We as Evertonians have sat back and let the club be ran in an unbelivably bad way.

Bill should have been driven out after the ?Fortress fiasco?. He should have been driven out when he appointed Keith "I?ve come from that massive club in Scotland who attract 6000 fans every week" Wyness, who appointed another couple of muppets who are running the club!!

So lets stop slagging people off for being wimps and accepting mediocrity when we?ve being doing it as fans for years now. Look at Kirkby for fuck's sake!!

Let's go the whole hog and get rid of the board or simply accept that Moyes has and is doing a good job within the resources that he is given!

Over to you Mr Kenwright!!!

Jimmy Last
22 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:40:15

Most of the posts on here that keep harping on about lack of money, investment, "5th aint bad" and we got beat by the finalists are missing the point of those on the other side.... Of course put into perspective finishing 5th behing the Sky tarts isn't bad in and of its own, but when you look at how many games we have dropped points in this year because of negative tactics and Moyes's constant use of the axis of evil in midfield... it drives me mad. How many games this season against the Sky 4 were we hammered in? Almost none, and if our Davey would have gone for the throat in almost any of those games, who knows what could have happened ? United twice, Chelsea at home (league and cup), Arsenal today and Liverpool (although only one person to blame for the first result) ? all games where we at least stood our own and should have taken something, so don't tell me that it is all about the money.

Adam Bennett
23 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:56:32

Not everyone is negative. Well most but I still think more then ever that we will easily at least get a point against Newcaslte.

Adam Bennett
24 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:58:04

Moyesy just needs to get a grip and pick the right team. Like 4-5-1, Yak on his own.

Steve Guy
25 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:33:53

Mr. Wrende, I appreciate that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but there?s at least another 10 teams BELOW us who would give their eye teeth to have had as ?crap? a season as we have.

I can?t deny the facts you put forward to support your view, but I have to say it?s a bit ?cup half empty? surely?

How?s this for an alternative perspective? Not that many years ago we all needed bicycle clips as we bounced around the relegation zone on a regular basis. At that point we were glad just to stay in the EPL never mind find ourselves established (3 seasons out of the last four) as a top six side.

Of course I?m as pissed off as anyone with our recent form and the fact that it meant we had to give up on the 4th spot which clearly was ours for the taking. However, you conveniently forget the squad depletion and injuries we have had at key times. No mention of the African Nations Cup and the loss of three key, in-form players for that semi against Chelsea. No mention of the now known fact that Arteta has been playing with an injury since before Christmas, or that Cahill has only played half a season.

I accept that the FA Cup was a disaster, but frankly that?s about it. We were beaten on penalties in the Uefa Cup having just played some of the best football I have seen from an Everton side for some many years. We were beaten by the referee as much as the RS at Goodison and were not outplayed in the return. (By the way I have stopped measuring how good we are, or are not, by how we do against the RS, the only thing that has separated us from them in recent seasons is a few points; without Stevie Me and Torres they would have made 10th this season).

Poor refereeing decisions have cost us dear this season. With one game to go we have still not had ONE penalty in the EPL. Only Arsenal have a better record away from home (our best set of results in this regard since we last won the League by the way). Go see rightresults.com if you want to see what I mean.

I agree we could so easily be playing in the Uefa Cup Final this year, but I have a great deal of confidence this could happen next season, based on how we buy in the summer and the standard of the teams who progressed further than us this time (it won?t be much different next season).

We were beaten today because we slipped up once; Hibbert followed the ball instead of sticking with the wide player. They cleared Jag?s header off the line in a game where the pundits were complementing our approach to the game and our tactics.

We have progressed and continue to do so and none of your stats convince me otherwise.

How would I define progress next season? It?s going to get tougher, with richer (money wise) teams fighting over the top six places than even managed it this year. So a piece of silverware in either Uefa, League or FA Cup remains our best hope of a trophy obviously, but I?d settle now for a 4th place finish and Champions League in 09-10.

Chris Dottie
26 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:55:49

Some of you lot beggar belief. The 2nd best run in Europe in our history turns into "losing against a team that succumbed to Rangers for heavens sake". Our best league season in many years and you are focussing on the games we lost not the ones we won. "Moyes is negative" you say. Who is more positive with more success? There are only 4 teams that have done better than Everton in England this year, do you want one of those managers?

For a while I have been wondering why I look at this mailbox since it seems to be a communal home for the pathologically determined to see the glass as one tenth empty. Those who feel they are better than the rest because they moan more and have less patience and realism, those who try and approprate the club?s historic motto as their justification for undermining the spirit of the supporters.

This post has just tipped me over the edge, I?ll get me coat, enjoy your misery. COYB.

Brian Waring
27 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:51:17

Spot on Mick. We have a number of fans on here who defend Moyes to the hilt no matter what, and they gush over him that much, it actually makes me want to puke. I think the problem, Mick, is that they are happy trundling along, and then turning a blind eye when things go tits up. I?m just glad there are fan?s like you, Marshy, Michael, Gavin etc, who are not afraid to tell it how they see it.

Kevin Tully
28 Posted 04/05/2008 at 19:53:39

How the fuck can you state the only good thing this season was the win over Sunderland? The arguments you put forward sound exactly the same as all the red shite supporters I know who have never been to a match. Some of our play in Europe this season has been superb. We have our record points total in the Prem and have recorded the most doubles over league opposition since we last won the Title.

We finshed 6th last season and I believe if we hadn?t lost our AFCON players this season we could have finished fourth. When we do finish fifth, for fans to say it is not good enough are living on another planet. Look at the money the Barcodes and Spurs have spent, then have a reality check. At this rate, if we don?t win the league next season it will be a disaster!

Connor Rohrer
29 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:11:58

Brian Waring, the same could be said of the likes of yourself who are against Moyes to the hilt and will have a go at him no matter what he does. It could make the positive people puke.

What's gone tits up?

Rob Newland
30 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:16:27

I think the only response needed for this shower of retarded NSNO themed whining is as follows:

WE.
DON?T.
HAVE.
ANY.
MONEY.

If you think another manager could do better with the amount of money EFC has then could you supply his name?

"Oh we never would have thought 5th was any good in the 80s!" Well it?s not the bloody 80s (thank god -- the only good thing about that decade was our football team) and WE DON?T HAVE ANY MONEY. You?re all out of your tiny little minds.

Alan Clarke
31 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:09:01

Does anyone who is making excuses for Moyes actually go to the game? You can?t possibly go to the game and watch the crap he has served up pretty much since the turn of the year. To look at the table, it looks alright doesn?t it? BUT the way we play is terrible and I like to be entertained.

Moyes?s ?style? of play is to not get beat and anything else is a bonus. I would love to have a manager who actually sends a team out to win games. We didn?t lose to Fiorentina because of penalties - we lost because Moyes played so ultra defensive over there that we invited far too much pressure and ended up 2 goals down.

What did Moyes?s negative tactics acheive today? Fuck all. How many times did their keeper actually have to make a save? We may still have lost but I would have liked us to have given it a go today. Money has absolutely nothing to do with Moyes?s obsession with defending ? it?s just how he is.

Neil Pearse
32 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:09:59

Lord save us! So let’s get this straight.

We are still likely to finish fifth in a league in which the top four are (whether we like it or not) in effect untouchable. They regularly have benches worth as much as our team on the pitch. Many below of us have substantially more resources than us, but we will still finish ahead of them. When our key players were fit we played our best football for at least a decade.

We very nearly got through to the semis of the UEFA Cup. We lost in the FA Cup - but, guess what? So did most of the other top clubs because it’s not a priority anymore. And, yes, we should have done a lot better against Chelsea in the Carling semi.

And we have finished the season very poorly - but have been lacking our most creative players, and have had many half fit. And we actually very nearly got the point we needed today, and Moyes’ tactics very nearly worked. Almost certainly if we had played more expansively we would have run the risk of being tonked. Love this ’defeated by lack of ambition’ nonsense. Get real.

The problem with many on this site is that they simply will not accept the reality of the situation we are actually in. They live in some fantasy world in which we have some divine right to play Arsenal off the park on their own ground, and to beat teams with massively bigger and better squads than us. We don’t. We are a club which has been in desperate decline for the last twenty years and which is currently punching way above its weight. And part of why it is doing that is by building its game on a very solid defence and aggressive teamwork.

If it is spineless to live in the real world then sign me up!

James Elliott
33 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:23:05

Christ, we don?t have the money of Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal or Man City, Villa and Spurs and we?re the only team to have really pushed to try to get into the top four over the last few years. In a couple of years, I really think we can be a top four team and be a real force in Europe. This has been a good season, we have played some good stuff and we had a great run in Europe, but I know we didn?t win anything.

For the money and the size of club, Moyes is a great manager. I do get annoyed at his tactics sometimes but I remember growing up with us being in a relegation battle every year and with no player getting over 10 goals. Now we finish in the top 6 each year with some serious goal scorers and all I get is Evertonians slagging of my club and the manager! Get a grip, we will be in the top four and we will win a major trophy, just give it time. Get behind our team.

Alan Clarke
34 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:32:36

Neil, so you don’t mind losing providing we ’nearly’ draw. You don’t mind not ever winning a trophy again providing we nearly win? Do me a favour! If the FA Cup is not our priority, what the hell is our priority? Finishing 5th? You ask any supporter of any team would you rather finish 5th or win the cup? And anyone who answers with "5th" is a liar. I’m sick of this "accept the reality" crap. Accept this then - Moyes is shit, that’s the reality.

Steve Williams
35 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:22:07

Just got back from Arsenal and popped onto TW to see what others thought.

My own take was that before the game I was pretty worried. It was baking hot in the stadium, being the hottest day of the year - not conducive to our pressing style. But I was pleasantly surprised. I thought we played more football than of late (admittedly at times it was difficult to get hold of the ball as it often is against Arsenal).

The contrast between the teams demonstrated that a must for next season is to get some players in who are comfortable in possession and don?t cough it up so cheaply.

Overall I thought we came for a point and on balance probably deserved to get it. Certainly the Arsenal fans we chatted to on the way out agreed. Just seen the Sky stats and we had twice as many attempts on target as they did!

Whilst disappointed with the result, it was far from our worst display of the season and may be a sign that we?re starting to feel a little better about ourselves in readiness for next week. We were neither great nor crap, so sometimes we just need a bit of balance.

Brian Waring
36 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:34:42

Connor, I have come on here plenty of time?s and praised Moyes. My problem is that, if he recieves the paudits when we play well, people have every right to criticize when he fucks up. But, some people on here won?t accept the slightest criticism directed at Moyes.

Also Connor, I don?t know if you have noticed? But, 6pts from a possible 24pts, to me look?s like thing?s have gone tits up towards the arse end of the season. And instead of going into our final game comfortably in 5th place (you know, after being in 4th, and throwing it away), we are still looking over our shoulder. Sound?s like tits up to me.

Neil Scott
37 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:08:35

Undermining the spirit of the supporters?!

Thats a laugh.

Well those supporters who think we have no right to beat the ’big four’ because we have less money or because they blindly believe the Sky marketing machine, seem to be getting their just desserts.

One point from 24. There you go.

Is it any wonder Moyes fails to motivate the team for the big ones when half the ground thinks we should be grateful to share the same pitch as our ’betters’?

Andy Fearns
38 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:39:11

?I can see both sides of the argument here. Firstly I was fortunate enought to be around when we had a great side in the 80s when winning was all important. As quickly as it came, it went... due to mis-management and lack of forward thinking at board level...?

Bullshit. It was Heysel that did for our team and never, ever forget that.

Tony Williams
39 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:50:22

Neil it’s not about having no right to beat them but the realisation that we aren’t as good as them and therefore when we do get beat to not go over the top and perhaps suggesting getting rid of our manager for Paul Ince.

You say 1 point from 24, I say 62 points from 111.

Connor Rohrer
40 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:48:56

Brian Waring, If you do come on here and praise Moyes then fair enough.

I was talking about the fans who are continually negative or positive. They obviously make each other puke if you know what I mean.

It?ll have gone tits up if we fail to make Europe in my opinion. If we get a point or three points against Newcastle then we?ll finish 5th and fulfilled our expectations. My aim for the team was to finish in Europe and I?m sure Moyes?s ambition was the same.

At the moment where struggling but it hasn?t gone tits up nor have we failed.

Peter Barnes
41 Posted 04/05/2008 at 20:53:55

It?s not the 1980s anymore. Membership of the ?big 4? club is achieved through vast financial resources and nothing else.

Some people accept this and deal with the realism better than others. We could all be idealists - I demand a Ferrari and an 8 bedroom detached house in the Wirral - but on my salary that isn?t possible. So I?ll settle for a Ford Ka and a semi detached house in Liverpool.

If people want to demand ?nothing but the best for Everton? then so be it - instead of being armchair know-it-all critics, actively do something about it. Campaign for Kenwright to sell the club. Campaign to get a mega rich entrepreneur in search of a vanity project to buy our club, so that you can begin using your beloved little motto again.

Or you could always just accept reality and limitations. Sometimes the carping gets so old, so useless, so boring. Like a broken record. All the bluster and indignation about ?wimp? fans.... utter folly. Delusions of grandeur, stemming from a fading past in another era. Pretty sad perspectives, actually.

John Sreet
42 Posted 04/05/2008 at 21:18:33

More senseless crap! I seen the great, yeah the really great teams, I?ve seen the tat, the absolute tat, so I don?t need a johnny come lately to tell me what I am satisfied with.

As for Mr Kenrick it seems that unless we?re ranting and raving then we?re not Evertonians. I?ve yet to hear from one ranter on this site just how with a pocket full of pennies he or she for that matter would mke our team great. I think we?re on the up, the hard way, Moyes is not perfect by a long way, but he?s the best we?ve had for a long long time, so get real you ranters and grunters and misery lovers and get behind your team no matter what.

Barry Cass
43 Posted 04/05/2008 at 21:33:52

One big question to people questioning Moyes is : Who would you replace him with ?

Who would come to us with our expectations and little money to fulfill our ambitions ??

I saw Paul Ince mentioned !! Has anyone seen MK Dons ? Fuck me they make us look like Brazil 1970’s.

My point is we shouldn’t lose our ambitions, hopes and expectations but without replacing the board and our owner it will be hard going.

My personal opinion is that even though he sometimes baffles and infuriates me like he did today (leaving Aj on for as long as he did when he had not had a kick) he is at present the only one to take us forward. The summer will tell us more however, some people might get their wish if blue bill doesn’t give Moyes the transfer kitty he wants and deserves.

One final final point , when do the players begin to shoulder some of the blame ?

Neil Pearse
44 Posted 04/05/2008 at 21:37:38

Alan Clarke - who said anything about "not minding losing"?? Losing spoilt my day today, as it probably did yours.

All I (and many others) are pointing out is that losing 1-0 to Arsenal in a close game is not conclusive evidence that we are a shite team who have had a shite season, and now should sack our shite manager. Even if we do manage to come fifth.

As for "any supporter" preferring to win the FA Cup than come fifth. Well, I am indeed any supporter. And I would rather finish as high as we could up the Premiership. When we lost in the FA Cup we were still very much in the running to come fourth. I would MUCH rather come fourth and get in the Champions League than win the FA Cup. Getting in the Champions League for a few seasons is our only route back permanently into the top tier. Winning the FA Cup would be a one-off (fantastic!) triumph.

Michael Kenrick
45 Posted 04/05/2008 at 22:02:25

"Get behind our team no matter what" ? if that?s where you?re coming from then it?s no wonder there is a huge rift in comprehension between the two sides.

For the love of god, it?s called post-MATCH analysis, on the apparently moribund basis that we send out a team to actually try to win a game of football. Not play cautiously for a draw only to come home with yet another defeat at the hands of the Sky4. I know it?s hard but try to forget all this bollucks everyone repeats ad nauseam about Best of the Rest, Uefa Cup runs, League cup semi-finals, six years of progress, blah de-fucking blah...

Today we had an opportunity in the second half to really take the game to Arsenal. A manager worth his salt would have done that. But our manager went there clearly not to win, but to play for the draw, I find that abhorrent and I think we got our just deserts ? zilch, nothing, nada.

And all you can manage is "get behind the team no matter what"???

Øystein Lemvik
46 Posted 04/05/2008 at 22:08:27

My feelings on the issue - just to get them on print, guess I’ll feel better afterwards - is that I can see both arguments. Problem is, the original post misses its own point.

Let’s look at the facts, it states, and lists some. But not all, not by a long shot. I could write that post if we’d been fifth from the bottom. But claiming we’re the worst thing since Adolf Hitler (yes, that’s how it comes across to me - a completely negative post with no hope, no positives, nothing) when we’re fifth and have picked up more points than any other premiership season; well, what can I say? It completely lacks perspective. And thereby it loses whatever meaning it had.

By all means, when the team is poor, slag them off here (my guess is they don’t read it), slag off the manager, the chairman, the stadium, whatever. Just don’t start claiming that this season just proves Moyes is talentless, or the team. We all know they’re not - that’s why you’re disappointed, for crying out loud!

Perspective, please!

Niall Clinton
47 Posted 04/05/2008 at 21:06:00

A site for wimps? A site for opinion, I thought. I simply cannot fathom how negative opinion is commended and how people who's view it is that we have actually done well this season are simply dismissed as being happy to settle for mediocrity.

All this garbage about us blowing our season away becuase Moyes lacked ambition etc is complete bollocks. Many times on this site, editors have berated those who dismiss the opinions of other posters. Yet Michael here you are championing Mick's opinion by stating "I really thought Evertonaians were made of better stuff but all along we have countless posts making the same old excuses". What's this about, Evertonians are all about wanting our club to do well. We're all frustrated by our current form but let's for once have a little bit of realism.

What has Moyes had to play with in terms of finances in comparison to the top 4? It's not being spineless to suggest it has been a good season, it's realistic. Moyes has got us to where we are on a nothing budget and when we've lost key players we just haven't got the quality to come in. Realism. Get over yourselves and look at the bigger picture. I await the usual rants about how I'm settling for mediocrity, whatever. If 5th place spending a fraction of most of the clubs below us is a failure of a season then I'll take it again next year.

Tony Williams
48 Posted 04/05/2008 at 22:17:56

"For the love of god, it?s called post-MATCH analysis"

Michael I doubt that there would be so many argumentative posts if it just was post match analysis.

It is the over the top "Moyes is garbage" posts that brings out the defender in me.

We played beter football today but the final third of our game was abysmal....again.

Barry Cass made the point I have been bringing up in the past month or two, we can slag Moyes off but when do the players take their share of the blame with their poor first touches and ineffective shooting? Moyes may be defensive and negative but he can?t effect the way a player fails to control a ball or sky a shot when they are actually on the pitch.

Arthur jones
49 Posted 04/05/2008 at 22:02:47

why am I not surprised by the pessimistic clap trap I’vejust read in this thread ? we’re 5th in the Premiership , the strongest league in Europe , the league that’s just supplied 3 of the last 4 teams in the champions league for the 2nd season in a row , aquaintences of mine from various parts of the country cannot believe that some Everton fans actually advocate the dismissal of David Moyes ! or are even critical of him , Get over it ... we are a good team , will have our 3rd season out of the last 4 in European competition , have beaten our highest points ever in the prem and we are improving , season by season , A few more quality signings and we will be challenging again for a top 4 place , Not having the excitement that Fulham and Birmingham are having this end of season , but you can’t have everything !

Michael Kenrick
50 Posted 04/05/2008 at 22:27:48

You raise an interesting point, Tony, which is this: just what is a manager responsible for in terms of the way the individual players perform in the team?

Correct me if I?m wrong but I believe the manager?s philosophy and game view is going to rub off and influence his players. And the things he emphasises in training should surely have some effect on the way they play? So, if he puts the emphasis on ball skills, ball control, first touch, moving into space, accurate passing, etc etc... then the team would I imagine play a certain way. (The Arsenal Way, for sake of arguement.)

On the other hand, if the empahsis is on tracking back, closing down, man-marking, keeping the right side of the attacker, getting your body in the way, keeping it tight... That is very clearly the Everton Way.

I think it comes from the manager, but tell me if I?m wrong.

Anthony Jerome
51 Posted 04/05/2008 at 22:14:54

Obtaining 5th place is no mean feat. The Uefa Cup run was awesome while it lasted, and the Carling Cup run was breath of fresh air.

I think the negative opinions that are arising are justified. Moyes is a fabulous manager. His obsessiveness with success is a rare quality. I think to better him would be difficult, though maybe not impossible. But, the past few weeks have shown up his distinct weaknesses.

1. He is incredibly emotional. You can see it in his interviews pre-match and on the touch line. The players feed off this including his fears and anxieties.

2. When his best players are out, his fear of losing means we play dire, defensive football attempting to make sure we dont lose and hope that we get a goal.

3. His motivational ability runs dry when we dont do that well, as the players don?t believe, as he hasnt done what Arsene, Fergie and Benitez have done in the game. He does not have the same respect.

4. His substitutions tend to be reactions. He doesn?t try force the issue, for example today he waited for their goal, when he should have gone for the kill after 60 mins.

Ultimately it is a real shame, because despite losing Cahill and Arteta, we still ought to have done better than 5th. That is the most frustrating part. We have done very well to make 5th, but we should have done BETTER. - 4th place, Carling Cup, Uefa Cup were there for the taking.

Make no mistake though, without Moyes I doubt we would have even been close to what WE HAVE achieved this season. The man despite his faults has incredible strengths.

Mark Perry
52 Posted 04/05/2008 at 22:35:28

Michael, how many teams go to Arsenal and pass them off the pitch? None do. We played to our strengths and were unlucky, I thought we played well.

Yes, we have been poor since the Fiorentina game, it was a big loss and it hurt, but that shows how far we have come that we think of going out to clubs like that as a bad result.

We have come so far in the last 5 years and we will go further. Moyes has made mistakes, but since Christmas we have missed Arteta, Cahill on a regular basis and that has hurt.

Next season more players, better players, bigger squad, better results.

People who want the moon on a stick will be dissapointed, but they are unrealistic and and as such their opinions arn't worth much. Slow and steady wins the race ? just ask Leeds!

Glen Strachan
53 Posted 04/05/2008 at 22:15:54

OK

We play in a league that has 16 crap teams and four of the best and biggest and richest clubs in Europe.

This garbage about "Rangers beat Fiorentina on pens and we didn?t" seems to ignore the sides Rangers faced to get there like Barcelona and Lyon. If anybody thinks we would not have been scared by that, they are in dreamland.

We went out in the round of the ?last 16? and they have fought their way through to the Final after selling their best player and losing their next best to injury.... the first choice keeper.

They are a big club with a huge devoted support and a wonderful ?state of the art stadium? although unlike our Blues they are not bankrolled by SKY TV. Without the Murdoch money we could wrap it all up and say goodnight. Get real guys!

We will finish 5th. We don?t do Cup ties. Anybody who thinks we were unlucky to go out to Fiorentina in the Uefa Cup should maybe also admit that we used up a whole season of luck in getting past Metallist in the qualifying tie.

Never mind...... 0-0 on Sunday will do it although even 0-1 might if (as looks likely Villa loses at West Ham).

If any Blue is feeling that his life is being ruined by not supporting a team that wins prizes and finishes in the top four (but only once in living Premier memory as high as second) maybe these friendly Yanks across the park will be pleased to see them.

Admit it..........neither Everton or Liverpool were relegated this season so for many this was a good year.

I am lucky enough to be one of the surviving few who has been able to see our beloved team promoted, win the FA Cup, win the Cup Winners Cup and close out four Championship wins.

I am mostly an optimist in life but I firmly believe that Everton will never lift another trophy under the present ownership. David Moyes will always do his best to avoid Everton?s relegation but anybody talking about David in the same sentence as Sir Alex is surely high on glue or some such. Both men are Scots but that is where the resemblance ends.

Final thought............in five years' time will we be referring to this current season of 2007-08 as ?the good old days at Goodison?.

Mick Wrende
54 Posted 04/05/2008 at 22:36:20

Allan Clarke is right, there are far too many Evertonians including Oystein who are happy with us being nearly men.
We nearly got 4th place
We nearly got to the FA cup final
We nearly beat Fiorentina
We nearly got more than 1 point off the top 4.
We nearly got to the Carling Cup Final.
So what a brilliant season we?ve had then. In actual fact we have won fuck all when 2 of the cups or 4th spot were there for the taking. No Evertonian should be happy with that.

Brendan McLaughlin
55 Posted 04/05/2008 at 22:27:20

What am I missing? A manager takes us to a top 6 finish (AGAIN) & yet there are fans lining up to call for his head. FFS! We just might have the man with the midas touch but lets give him the chance to prove it, one way or the other.

Mark Perry
56 Posted 04/05/2008 at 22:50:23

Not happy realistic, some people are living in a acid trip if they think breaking into the top 4 is easy or that Villa and Spurs are "shit teams".

We have more points than we ever had when we finished 4th! Man City spent £37 million and are well below us.

We are improving and that is success.

Baloo Johnson
57 Posted 04/05/2008 at 22:48:16

...don’t ya just love football.

Tony Williams
58 Posted 04/05/2008 at 23:16:07

Michael, David Moyes was a defender and therefore his expertise per se would be defending and yes we went out today to not lose.

However, no matter what influence Moyes has on the gameplan he surely cannot be blamed for a player having an off day. Ossie behind Arteta and possibly Pienaar is our most skillful player but today he had the touch of an elephant and quite a number of attacks broke down when he was on the ball, usually his controlling of the ball is spot on.

I am not going to sit here and type excuse after excuse for Moyes as he also has to share the blame for a loss but, as I have frequently said, to place the blame squarely on Moyes?s doorstep is just not realistic.

Some people say he is scared of flair players but you just need to look who he has brought in and who he has tried to sign to show what a nonsense that statement is.

Nick Wall
59 Posted 04/05/2008 at 23:17:59

Threads like this do my nut. You?d think we?d just been in a relegation dogfight. In fact by any rational standards we?ve had a great season. My hope for the season was that we?d come top six, and have one or two good cup runs, and we?ve done exactly that. That?s not settling for second best. It?s settling for the best we can achieve given the massive disparity in resources, squad sizes, etc between us and the top 4 clubs.

You say you?re not knocking the team, but why are you so set on putting the worst possible spin on things. 1 point against the top 4 ? What about the 61 points against the rest of the league, how many other teams have managed that? Knocked out of the Uefa Cup by Fiorentina? Look, we?ve won 8, drawn 1 of our 10 Uefa Cup games, scoring bagfuls of goals in the process, how can you not be proud of such a record?

There have been mistakes and disappointments along the way, nobody?s denying that, and we all desperately want to see the squad strengthened in the summer so we can hopefully have another crack at some silverware. But the team and the coach have been doing a lot more right than they?ve been doing wrong. And some of us would do well to savour the many good things that this team has achieved, because believe me friends, there?s no guarantee that we?ll still have so much to shout about in a couple of years time.

Dutch Schaffaer
60 Posted 04/05/2008 at 23:57:13

Talking about not excepting anything but the very best, how about a small fact that this season Everton earned more Premiership points then ever before.

Everton haven’t won this many points since we last won the League.

Sure there have been disappointments (not beating the Top 4, losing on penalties) but there have also been some great some:-

Record Premiership Points.

Cup Semi Final.

Major Progress In Europe.

And some would say that Everton have actually played some decent football at times.

Not as fantastic a season as it could have been but certainly more progress made.

Michael Tracey
61 Posted 05/05/2008 at 00:51:41

As soon as I see Hibbert and Neville in the same team I just wait for the inevitable loss. Moyes has had a very bad 3 months in terms of tactics. We should've played 4-4-2 yesterday and gone for the win but no, we have our top scorer sitting on the bench getting splinters on his ass.

Robert Taylor
62 Posted 05/05/2008 at 02:00:29

I understand people feeling frustrated at our present place in English football, but it’s nonsense laying it all on the door of David Moyes.

He’s a pretty decent but occasionally frustrating manager. I don’t see why he couldn’t have been more positive in some of our recent games but the fact is he’s transformed us from relegation contenders to a solid top half team.

The fact that that is pretty much the best we can realistically aim for is not David Moyes’ fault but that of the people who have run the club over the last 20 years... It’s a simple fact of the matter that the club has been mismanaged - in a time of unsurpassed wealth in the English game we’ve squandered our position of being a traditional superpower to an also run. That’s due to a lack of vision and innovation in the Boardroom.

People come on here citing "the facts" as to why Moyes should go, but they always cite the facts selectively. Like I said, I understand the frustration but it should be directed to the right people - The bluffers in the boardroom, not the talented but sometimes annoying manager who’s gotten us to fifth.

Tony Connor
63 Posted 05/05/2008 at 02:31:57

Cushions on the pitch....eh?

Andy Lea
64 Posted 05/05/2008 at 02:57:34

So Moyes isn't the man to take us back to the mid eighties....... so tell me who is and qualify it - am not saying stick with Moyes coz he does what he does but I believe he is doing a good job and has changed the squad considerably. Yes, there are days when I am so frustrated with the team it's unreal but until we are financially backed to the extent required then we are doing ok.

Dan Parker
65 Posted 05/05/2008 at 03:13:45

Michael, I can?t believe your comments to this post. It certainly doesn?t sound like the typical impartiality I would expect from one of the editors I voted for at the fanzine awards. Calling people spineless for supporting Moyes is quite insane.

Dan Parker
66 Posted 05/05/2008 at 03:20:55

What we all focus on, whether it be the positive or negative, let’s not forget we’re all Evertonians. This is the people’s club, treat your comrades with respect!

Peter Bourke
67 Posted 05/05/2008 at 04:24:44

Mr Kenrick,
You shouldn?t assume that the team is coached more on one facet of the game than another just because we are stronger or weaker in those areas. Looking at certain players' skill level your arguement may seem to have merit, but I believe it has more to do with the players ability or lack thereof that is showing on game day, rather than the drills they are doing at training.

I was looking at the 2005-06 highlights DVD over the weekend and Moyes states that during a poor period in that season they had tried everything to turn their form around all to no avail. In the end the turn-around was put down to a few players whose form improved and put their hands up, namely Cahill and Arteta. The whole team improved as a result and I believe our poor recent form is due to key players missing and the players that have been asked to take the next step up have not done so.

Jason Lam
68 Posted 05/05/2008 at 04:23:44

I want our Everton to win the Premiership and European Cup. In the same year. And beat the shite at Anfield. That’s ambition. We all know it’ll never happen until our saviour and his billions come in. Moyes in or out - who cares then?

As for the Arsenal game, considering Villa lost, I would have played for the point too. Two games to go, we just need to pip Villa for 5th.

That’s perspective.

Dave Wilson
69 Posted 05/05/2008 at 07:13:42

Things are never as black and white as the posts above make out, of course Moyes should stay, the facts speak for themselves, he is improving, besides who would we get instead?

Having said that, there can be no doubt that he has repeatedly made the same error against the "four" his negative tactics against these teams tells them ? and his own players ? that he actually believes we are inferior to them, how the fuck does he expect his players to step up to the plate when he doesn't?

Neil Pearce
"The top four is untouchable" sorry mate, I cant have that, we were one of them for large parts of the season until we imploded.

Arthur
I?m not sure its so much crtism of DM, I think its more a desperation to see him take the final step, he?s got everything else just about right, he just has to believe he can beat the top boys, if we took even a couple of draws against RS and won the games against the Gooners ? when we should have done ? we would be still fighting for a CL place

Peter Mitchell
70 Posted 05/05/2008 at 07:48:06

I normally can?t be bothered responding to a thread that is so rabidly opinionated, but I will make an exception on this occasion. In particular, I find Michael?s comments extraordinary. Moyes is a negative manager when we play against the top sides and I don?t blame him. It is true that we haven?t done well against the top 4 this season, but it?s also true to say that we haven?t had the best of luck either. It is true to say that we have tailed off badly at the end of the season, but so have many others (Arsenal anyone?) with much larger squads.

At the start of this season, most fair and right thinking individuals (Everton supporters or not) would have said that progress would be a further improvement in league position (all but achieved now) and a decent run in a couple of cups (done). No we haven?t won anything and I fear we won?t win the league until someone invests the kind of money that is being invested in the likes of City, Villa, Spurs, Portsmouth etc let alone the likes of Chelsea, RS, Man U and Arsenal. Get real people and live in the real world.

The alternative is that Moyes leaves and is replace by who exactly? I think we could easily sink like a stone if we are not careful and challenging for Champions League spots and even Uefa Cup spots (so sneered at by some of those on this thread) will become a distant memory.

We all want to win things, but the reality is that without serious investment, we won?t win anything major. It will be the League, FA and UEFA cups only that we can realistically go for. In the meantime, we are the 5th best team in the country, still punching significantly above our financial weight (look at our turnover v?s Spurs for example in the recently published "rich list").

Derek Thomas
71 Posted 05/05/2008 at 07:09:41

We USED to be mediocre.

We MAY end up being the ’ best of the rest ’

BUT;

TOO MANY seem to be happy with this, maybe with good reason(s) which we all know too well, finance etc

NEARLY... but not quite, how many, players, games, cup comps, seasons does that cover now??

NEARLY-OCRITY...it’s the new mediocrity.

Conor, just a point, not too long ago you and I and others had at it about...it’s the result that matters.

You now seem to have joined me in the Fun boy 3 section of this refuge for the terminally bewildered...’ it ain’t what you do but the way that you do it ’

Alan Clarke
72 Posted 05/05/2008 at 09:53:45

Can someone actually come up with some reasonable explanation as to why we have been so shit recently? And why have we only won 1 in 8? And why are we absolute crap to watch?

Is the team I watched against Fulham, West Ham, Derby, Reading, Birmingham progress? I’m so angry that some fellow supporters seem to think these performances are good enough. These are not top 4 sides we’ve played very poorly against.

I still don’t think people like David Marsden have been and actually watched Everton this season. I reckon you’ve watched us on the telly against a part-time Norweigen outfit and thought we actually play decent stuff. You like looking at stats and thinking we can’t be that bad but we are. Our current form is the second worst in the league.

Peter Bourke
73 Posted 05/05/2008 at 10:20:29

Alan Clarke,
I don?t recall anyone saying these performances where good enough???
The loss of Tim Cahill is one good reason why we have lost form.
There, you have one reasonable suggestion. Tell me im wrong!!!

James Keating
74 Posted 05/05/2008 at 10:46:11

No trophies any season = FAILURE. Stop dressing up good cup runs and a 5th place finish as sucess coz it’s the biggest load ov bollocks i’ve ever heard.

Kenwright is useless, Moyes does the best he can with limited resources but he doesn’t help himself sometimes.

Can’t see things improving in the next ten years coz as a club we are happy to settle for this shite!!!

John Fitzpatrick
75 Posted 05/05/2008 at 11:09:34

Well said couldn’t of put it any better

Nelly Blythe
76 Posted 05/05/2008 at 10:38:32

BRAVO Mick Wende & Alan Clarke... I?m right behind you. I?m sick to death with fellow blues who hide behind this ?we?ve got no money shite? and openly accept mediocrity as success.

Yes the begining and middle of this season was fairly good by the clubs recent standards and during that time the team DID actually play the type of football we all want to see EVERY week but the fact is since Xmas and definately since Fiorentina we?ve been SHITE make no mistake about it.

Lack of money has no bearing on the way MOYES yes MOYES instructs the team to play. After all HE is the manager and HE decides who to pick, in what positions and what tactics we employ. In each of the last three years we have broken our transfer record but the team continues to play in the same manner for the most part - aimless long balls to front players short in stature, I cant remember the last time we played to feet, had good off the ball movement, got in behind teams and entertained...oh wait yes I can FIORENTINA at home so it makes it much harder for me to understand and accept why we have resorted back to the HOOFBALL shite we?ve been subjected to recently.

That has nothing to do with finances. I?ve been saying for months that Moyes is shit scared when it comes to playing the top 4 and /or what are termed as MUST WIN games. He plays not to get beat and more often than not gets beaten and it is something he has never attempted to change . If he just went out and tried to win then I?m sure we would have gained more points than we have against the so-called stronger teams and there wouldn?t be so many posts critical of Moyes? tactics on this site.

I know one of the IMWT brigade will point out the display at Old Trafford and to me that is the exception that proves the rule. We played really well at Old Trafford and despite the result I gave a standing ovation as they left the field because we actually looked like we played to win... but that?s just ONE game out of god knows how many. Far too many times particularly in the last 8 games we?ve been served up absolute garbbage and the abject shite that was Fulham, Birmingham & West Ham (2nd half) to name but three is just not good enough IMO and not even the most staunch Moyes supporter can or should make excuses.

Bye the way I?m not advocating getting rid of Moyes, I?m just saying that he should be a lot more adventureous and have more faith in his team. We know it?s there we all saw it earlier in the season that?s why we were all so optimistic... So c?mon Davie surprise us all, play to win on Sunday and don't have us all ?crying in our beer? as we?ve failed to gain the point we so badly need by playing ?not to get beat?..!!

Barry Blackmore
77 Posted 05/05/2008 at 11:29:57

Guys

Just to pick up on the tactical element of the thread here, do you not think that Moyes obiously sets his team up the way he does and gives conservative instructions against the likes of the ?top 4? becuase if we come out like a bull in a china shop all guns blazing we?ll get torn to pieces at least 90% of the time. Becuase the simple fact of the matter is that in the main, man for man, their players are better than ours (again the underpinning factor finances).

Now Ican see the Michaels point of ?at least having a go? which is admirable. But can you imagine the carping on here if we did? I would be even worse than now when we?ve been narrowly beaten.

Let?s not decend to the level of idiotic Newcastle fans who?d lap up 3-4 defeats ad finitum.

IMHO, pragmatism with our means is only the sensible method unfortunately.

Chris James
78 Posted 05/05/2008 at 12:22:06

Hmm, it’s interesting how the site policy has changed with regards to name-calling isn’t it.
Whilst I can recall the moral outrage about some positive fans daring to criticise the bile of Marsh and co earlier in the season, when the naysayers label these fans ’wimps’ that seems somehow fine.

Then again perhaps we shouldn’t expect too much when the moderator himself is questioning the fibre and sanity of those who disagree with his own views?

Nelly Blythe
79 Posted 05/05/2008 at 12:21:48

Barry...did we get torn to pieces at Old Trafford ..?!?!
What your saying suggests to me that in reality that neither you and more importantly Moyes doesnt really think we?re any good and haven?t got a hope of beating the better teams....OK that?s your opinion and you?re entitled to it but now please explain Reading (h) Sunderland(a), the RS (a) Fulham (a), Birmingham (a), West Ham (h) etc surely you?re not suggesting that these teams would tear us to pieces!!

Gary Mortimer
80 Posted 05/05/2008 at 12:39:52

I was not happy when I heard the team news yesterday, as in my opinion AJ without that extra yard (which has disappeared) is not a lone striker and that Pip and Cars should never play in midfield together.

However, although we lost I will point out that the tried and tested "Hoofball" tactic was not used yesterday, At least we tried to keep the ball on the deck and Tim only had a couple of saves to make. A bit too negative, but I think that Arsenal are a team that you cannot go at like a bull at a gate. We played some neat stuff and if AJ could finish like that chap across the park, who knows what would have happened.

As to all those who reckon BK should sell up - I guess it?s time for them to get their cheque-books out and put a bid in . . . be quick though as there?s a huge queue of bulti-millionaires just waiting out there - NOT!

The one that sets BK apart is that he is a fan of the club, he may not have enough money and he may be easily misled by the brokers of the "deal of the century", but I think I?d prefer him to Frank Sintra at City - wouldn?t you?

At the end of the day everyone has an opinion - me I?m a half full man, I think we?ve made progress, not quick enough for some I guess, but if Tiny Tim had stayed fit for the whole season, I reckon we would be looking at a CL campaign next season.

CYOB

Mark Ramshaw
81 Posted 05/05/2008 at 13:16:03

Toffeeweb.com is an excellent site that gives anyone with an interest in Everton the chance to give thier opinions. If people dont like them, don?t log onto the Site. We all want everything for the Club and maybe our hopes have been raised by a decent season. The thing is this season could have been so much more. Moyes got us into the positions but we just dont have the balls/guts/nerve/know how when it really matters. Hence we limp across the line for 5th or maybe 6th.

I'm not from Liverpool, I?m from Durham so I only watch them on Sky but I am and always will be an Everton fan. COYB and lets thump Newcastle on Sunday. I'm from Durham and am off to Benidorm on Saturday with my barcode brother-in-law..... I?ll love it if we beat them!!!

Paul Caslin
82 Posted 05/05/2008 at 14:43:17

It's been a great season, the shite got knocked out in the Champions League semis!!! What more could you ask for?!?!!?!?!

Ian Tunny
83 Posted 05/05/2008 at 14:56:11

Michael, I dont think you would be happy if we won every game of the season. You honestly believe we should have done much better? The team isn't that great to be fair, you expect miracles. That team on paper is no better than West Ham, Spurs Newcastle amongst many others and yet we are battling for European places. You've got to realise we are not Man Utd or Chelsea because we don't have that kind of money to buy the best players it's quite simple realy I can't see why everybody else can't see it.

Moyes has done a fantastic job and so what if he is a little defensive minded ? he was a defender that's his style. If it's got him this far why change? He's playing to both his an his players' strengtht considering our defence is very strong and most of our attack are injured.

Nelly Blythe
84 Posted 05/05/2008 at 15:43:43

Paul Caslin...what more could I ask for ??...
How about winning one of the trophies (i.e Carling Cup and/or UEFA Cup) which we could easily and most probably should have won with a bit more attacking positivity from the manager.

I fucking hate them RS with every nerve in my body but I would willingly suffer two derby defeats every season if it meant we finished higher than them and won silverware on a regular basis.

Barry Blackmore
85 Posted 05/05/2008 at 17:34:46

Nelly

your spot on there about some of our performances against the lesser teams, and sometimes we are overly cautious, there the games i tend to hget really wound up about! All i’m suggesting is against the big boys we need to play the percentages.

It’s all about perspective.

Adam Carey
86 Posted 05/05/2008 at 18:59:41

Mick, I was pissed off when we went out to Oldham in the cup and some of the tactics we play make me wonder why I bother to watch the games, but I support my team no matter what.
We don’t have the resources to play fancy looking football every game.
As for the "Evertonian’s shouldn’t accept this" crap, I move back to my main points of perspective and realism. We do what we can to survive, and by that I mean competing with the means we have. A lot of teams below us have outspent us over the last few years and by rights we could be marked as punching above our weight.
Once again, Welcome to the Modern Game.

Alan Baillie
87 Posted 06/05/2008 at 02:21:49

Kermit.... keep the faith!!!!