The Mail Bag
Style or Success
Comments (21)
Harry Rednapp on soccernet has said 150 million to break into the top four, with no gaurantee!! Keegan has said you need to spend big, and a few others have made similar comments, David Moyes included.
Now DM has improved us to a 5th or 6 th position side; you need money for the next stage and we haven't got any, so what is the scenario? He cannot get us success even if he had money (but how do we know?) or you do not like the style, but without a large budget would prefer better style at probably not achieving 5th or 6 th?
Now I get frustrated at the hoofball, bad passing of Hibbert and Neville, the bad corners of Fernandes, and AJ's "into the corner" running of rescent times, but we have had our fair share of decent footy mid-season for a small squad. Because, as all pros will tell you, over a season the table does not lie. So until we get a sugar daddy, do we want the success of this season or style??
Anton Holmes, Posted 07/05/2008 at 01:16:00
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Michael Kenrick
Why can't we have both? We had it in the middle of the season. Why not both?
Jimmy Rimmer
1 Posted 07/05/2008 at 03:21:38
1 Posted 07/05/2008 at 03:21:38
I think both is acheivable even without the backing of a sugar daddy. As Michael points out, there were at times in the middle of the season where we were winning games and playing some half decent football.
I feel Moyes is approaching this next pre-season with the strongest squad he has ever had in terms of quality and is just a couple of class signings (please God) away from being able to put out a team which just may well be able to give us what we want.
Ok, so we don’t have the millions at our disposal that some of our rivals do, but DM will surely have a bit of cash thrown his way this summer, and I trust him to make better use of that money than the squillions that Harry Redknapp et al will flash around in the coming months!
I feel Moyes is approaching this next pre-season with the strongest squad he has ever had in terms of quality and is just a couple of class signings (please God) away from being able to put out a team which just may well be able to give us what we want.
Ok, so we don’t have the millions at our disposal that some of our rivals do, but DM will surely have a bit of cash thrown his way this summer, and I trust him to make better use of that money than the squillions that Harry Redknapp et al will flash around in the coming months!
John Charles
2 Posted 07/05/2008 at 04:03:42
2 Posted 07/05/2008 at 04:03:42
We can do it. With some luck and building wisely with our small resources we can do it.
Add a quality winger, another good defensive midfielder, another Pienaar. Add a good right back. ... if we could get (long shot) that in the summer I reckon we could have a good crack.
Add a quality winger, another good defensive midfielder, another Pienaar. Add a good right back. ... if we could get (long shot) that in the summer I reckon we could have a good crack.
Jason Lam
3 Posted 07/05/2008 at 04:19:57
3 Posted 07/05/2008 at 04:19:57
Overall, I think we should be optimistic. A lot will depend on, not so much the other also-rans, but the RS fucking up. You can’t take 4th if it’s not available. A good start to the new season, and at least 2 points from the RS. COYBs!
Dave Whitwell
4 Posted 07/05/2008 at 07:52:00
4 Posted 07/05/2008 at 07:52:00
Correct me if I?m wrong but I don?t think Arsenal have even spent a 3rd of that £150m?
Also the only reason Liverpool went on to 4th is Gerrard & Torres, I don?t care what people say but for all they have spent I still think outside those two that have a lot of ordinary players.
Add to that the money spent by Newcastle, Spurs, Portsmouth & Man City, and there is a genuine argument that big money is not the answer.
For me its about clubs who invest in a plan, get a quality manager with a medium-long term plan and gradually change a squad. Both Moyes & O?Neill have done this and to a certain extent Hughes at Blackburn.
Incidently it would be interesting if Blackburn pip Villa for 6th and we remain 5th as I believe that us & Blackburn are two of the lowest spending clubs!
Also the only reason Liverpool went on to 4th is Gerrard & Torres, I don?t care what people say but for all they have spent I still think outside those two that have a lot of ordinary players.
Add to that the money spent by Newcastle, Spurs, Portsmouth & Man City, and there is a genuine argument that big money is not the answer.
For me its about clubs who invest in a plan, get a quality manager with a medium-long term plan and gradually change a squad. Both Moyes & O?Neill have done this and to a certain extent Hughes at Blackburn.
Incidently it would be interesting if Blackburn pip Villa for 6th and we remain 5th as I believe that us & Blackburn are two of the lowest spending clubs!
Erik Dols
5 Posted 07/05/2008 at 08:40:44
5 Posted 07/05/2008 at 08:40:44
One thing that I keep saying about Arsenal when people point at them in the respect of "they haven’t spent as much as other clubs":
Gunners have at least double the wage bill we have. This £150m includes room to offer players really big wages. Or do you think Henry would have played for them as long as he has if he would have been on the wages we can offer? Henry earned £120000 a week. These are figures even Spurs and Barcodes are not prepared to pay although they’re getting closer than we do.
Gunners have at least double the wage bill we have. This £150m includes room to offer players really big wages. Or do you think Henry would have played for them as long as he has if he would have been on the wages we can offer? Henry earned £120000 a week. These are figures even Spurs and Barcodes are not prepared to pay although they’re getting closer than we do.
Tony Williams
6 Posted 07/05/2008 at 08:50:49
6 Posted 07/05/2008 at 08:50:49
Why is it that when someone mentions the constraints of a budget someone pops up and shouts, "but Arsenal didn?t spend that much!"?
Really, they didn?t? so their huge wage bill and buying of Hleb, Adebayor, Gallas etc is not spending much and then paying for a brand new stadium, methinks they have spend plenty of dosh.
It?s a romantic dream that we will be able to break into the Sky 4 next season if we buy well but guess what the Shite and those above will all spend, in all possibility, over £50m on their squads with at least two "star" players coming in when we will do the best with what?s left.
I hate to say it but Keegan has a point in that the Sky 4 sqauds are light years ahead of the chasing group and always will be until the better players stop going to them, which is hardly likely to happen is it?
Really, they didn?t? so their huge wage bill and buying of Hleb, Adebayor, Gallas etc is not spending much and then paying for a brand new stadium, methinks they have spend plenty of dosh.
It?s a romantic dream that we will be able to break into the Sky 4 next season if we buy well but guess what the Shite and those above will all spend, in all possibility, over £50m on their squads with at least two "star" players coming in when we will do the best with what?s left.
I hate to say it but Keegan has a point in that the Sky 4 sqauds are light years ahead of the chasing group and always will be until the better players stop going to them, which is hardly likely to happen is it?
Steve Templeton
7 Posted 07/05/2008 at 08:52:50
7 Posted 07/05/2008 at 08:52:50
The reason why we can’t have both is because of injuries and fatigue to name but two.
The Premier League is probably the most physically demanding league in the world and it is unrealistic to expect players to be able to play at 110% every week for nine months. This is why the ’top four’ have such large squads with better quality second string players such as Benayoun, this enables them to rotate players keeping the first choice players fresh during the course of the season and bringing in quality replacements when faced with injuries.
The only way to deal with this is to increase the quality and quantity of the squad which comes down to one thing.....money. Whether in transfer fees or wages to sustain a large squad of good quality costs a fortune as pointed out by Erik.
The Premier League is probably the most physically demanding league in the world and it is unrealistic to expect players to be able to play at 110% every week for nine months. This is why the ’top four’ have such large squads with better quality second string players such as Benayoun, this enables them to rotate players keeping the first choice players fresh during the course of the season and bringing in quality replacements when faced with injuries.
The only way to deal with this is to increase the quality and quantity of the squad which comes down to one thing.....money. Whether in transfer fees or wages to sustain a large squad of good quality costs a fortune as pointed out by Erik.
Mark Pendleton
8 Posted 07/05/2008 at 09:05:23
8 Posted 07/05/2008 at 09:05:23
The Champions League format is killing the game. The cash on offer to the top 4 clubs means that they have the biggest budgets and so can spend more on players and vitally far more on wages. Only with a complete half-wit in charge could one of these clubs finish outside the top 4 with those resources (and thankfully it has happened once in recent years).
If we do finish 5th we have effectively won the second league. It is not sustainable now for a club that does not finish in the top 4 each season to break in to it. That is the reality unfortunately. As a European League met so many objections the solution was to effectively have a mini league with the top clubs and have barriers to entry.
Sadly, I honestly believe the reason we?re not in it was Heysel robbing us of being at the top of the English game when the cash started rolling in. Perversely though, I think the way the top 4 operate in this way stinks (although i don?t really blame Man Utd and Asenal) and I?m glad we?re not like that.
If we do finish 5th we have effectively won the second league. It is not sustainable now for a club that does not finish in the top 4 each season to break in to it. That is the reality unfortunately. As a European League met so many objections the solution was to effectively have a mini league with the top clubs and have barriers to entry.
Sadly, I honestly believe the reason we?re not in it was Heysel robbing us of being at the top of the English game when the cash started rolling in. Perversely though, I think the way the top 4 operate in this way stinks (although i don?t really blame Man Utd and Asenal) and I?m glad we?re not like that.
Ian Tunny
9 Posted 07/05/2008 at 09:20:30
9 Posted 07/05/2008 at 09:20:30
It is possible to break into the top 4 with very little money and a poor side. We have alreay done it a couple of seasons ago; all you need is a good manager and a little patience. Harry and Kevin are making excuses and they will have far more money to spend than Moyes. That's not to say it's going to be easy. I think it was possible this season but for bad refereing and injuries to key players
John Lloyd
10 Posted 07/05/2008 at 09:14:17
10 Posted 07/05/2008 at 09:14:17
It is harder, no question but these managers are coming out & making these statements for a number of reasons.
a) To lower fans' expectations, especially Keegan who the Geordies would have you believe will win the Prem within 3 years!
b) To make the chairman release more funds, we both know that the two clubs in question are not short so thier managers are obviously hoping they get as much as possible
c) Lastly the teams these men are in cahrge of are not good enough! Pompey have had a superb season & a great time under Redknapp but does anyone honestly believe that they will or could become a force in this country let alone Europe?? It's probably the same as point A but lowering fan expectations makes them appreciate what you actually do a little more.
The thing about us is that we have done it already, we have tasted what was needed and we are hopefully still hungry for that again. A few factors come into it, but if next season the weakest link of the top 4 (usually the shite but possibly gooners next year) have an off season, plus we have a season similar to this but with a bit more quality and more bodies to cope with loss of form/injuries/suspensions we would have probably wrapped up 4th last week!!
Another massive season for DM & ourselves next year, we have to maintain improvement as standing still in the prem is like going backwards. Spurs, Villa and City will come back stronger, Pompey, Geordies & Blackburn may improve also. Coupled with the teams above probably throwing crazy money around we have to be clever/lucky and hopefully we can crack it again......
Either that or Bill Gates develops a new passion for ?soccerball? and wants a playclub like Roman has with the rentboys!!
a) To lower fans' expectations, especially Keegan who the Geordies would have you believe will win the Prem within 3 years!
b) To make the chairman release more funds, we both know that the two clubs in question are not short so thier managers are obviously hoping they get as much as possible
c) Lastly the teams these men are in cahrge of are not good enough! Pompey have had a superb season & a great time under Redknapp but does anyone honestly believe that they will or could become a force in this country let alone Europe?? It's probably the same as point A but lowering fan expectations makes them appreciate what you actually do a little more.
The thing about us is that we have done it already, we have tasted what was needed and we are hopefully still hungry for that again. A few factors come into it, but if next season the weakest link of the top 4 (usually the shite but possibly gooners next year) have an off season, plus we have a season similar to this but with a bit more quality and more bodies to cope with loss of form/injuries/suspensions we would have probably wrapped up 4th last week!!
Another massive season for DM & ourselves next year, we have to maintain improvement as standing still in the prem is like going backwards. Spurs, Villa and City will come back stronger, Pompey, Geordies & Blackburn may improve also. Coupled with the teams above probably throwing crazy money around we have to be clever/lucky and hopefully we can crack it again......
Either that or Bill Gates develops a new passion for ?soccerball? and wants a playclub like Roman has with the rentboys!!
Mark Pendleton
11 Posted 07/05/2008 at 09:52:53
11 Posted 07/05/2008 at 09:52:53
Ian Tunny, you kind of made my point about it being possible "but for bad refereeing and injuries to key players". Injuries are part and parcel and to sustain out challenge for 4th i think we’d have needed perhaps another 4 quality players and that’s just for the first 11 and would leave little options on the bench to change games in our favour. The top 4 have in most cases enough quality players to field two sides, so with a spate of injuries still field a top quality side and bench to change games and cover loss of form.
John Lloyd
12 Posted 07/05/2008 at 10:12:53
12 Posted 07/05/2008 at 10:12:53
I also agree with Mark Pendleton, the Champions League format is genuinely killing domestic leagues.
Back in the 60s/70s/80s teams brought through good players and built their team around them; nowadays as soon as someone outside the CL teams has even a decent year they are snaffled by the CL teams to just bolster thier squad. Why didnt Wright-Phillips stay and build something at City to sit on bench??? Sidwell, Ben Haim etc etc!!! We?ve been burned oursleves, Barmby, Rooney anyone.
I don't know what would improve it though?? We could just fuck them off & let them play in a European super league & lets see how long fans would put up with that for, Milan one week, Madrid the next then Moscow then wherever, won't be cheap....
Something needs to be done though...
Back in the 60s/70s/80s teams brought through good players and built their team around them; nowadays as soon as someone outside the CL teams has even a decent year they are snaffled by the CL teams to just bolster thier squad. Why didnt Wright-Phillips stay and build something at City to sit on bench??? Sidwell, Ben Haim etc etc!!! We?ve been burned oursleves, Barmby, Rooney anyone.
I don't know what would improve it though?? We could just fuck them off & let them play in a European super league & lets see how long fans would put up with that for, Milan one week, Madrid the next then Moscow then wherever, won't be cheap....
Something needs to be done though...
Dave Whitwell
13 Posted 07/05/2008 at 10:50:05
13 Posted 07/05/2008 at 10:50:05
The point about Arsenal not spending much is still valid despite the wages they pay, as most of the players they have do not start on significant sums.
Wenger and he?s scouts have an ability to spot young talented players, which they then bring through into the 1st team, such as Flamini, Fabregas, Diaby, Adebeyor, Van Persie, Helb. All have then gone on to secure higher wages and long contracts after performing well. Its not impossible that we could have paid those fees & wages initially.
Wenger and he?s scouts have an ability to spot young talented players, which they then bring through into the 1st team, such as Flamini, Fabregas, Diaby, Adebeyor, Van Persie, Helb. All have then gone on to secure higher wages and long contracts after performing well. Its not impossible that we could have paid those fees & wages initially.
Rob Bentham
14 Posted 07/05/2008 at 10:50:21
14 Posted 07/05/2008 at 10:50:21
Platini has already mooted the idea that four clubs from one country is too many. I think now he seems to be right. Apart from England only Spain and Italy get four clubs, the mighty Osasuna and Chievo got through this year. So expect it to change in years to come.
How about this for an idea that would bring parity to our league, Only the Champions from each country qualify for the Champions League, the rest go in to the Uefa cup and the cup winners in each country enter a competition called The Cup Winners Cup.
I know, genius!
Must e-mail this to Michel
How about this for an idea that would bring parity to our league, Only the Champions from each country qualify for the Champions League, the rest go in to the Uefa cup and the cup winners in each country enter a competition called The Cup Winners Cup.
I know, genius!
Must e-mail this to Michel
Erik Dols
15 Posted 07/05/2008 at 11:07:54
15 Posted 07/05/2008 at 11:07:54
Dave Withwell, you’re right that Arsenal have a great scouting system. But you’re wrong when you start to mention these names. Fabregas, Adebayor Van Persie and Hleb would NEVER have joined us if we offered them the wages Arsenal are able to afford. Van Persie and Fabregas were great talents at big clubs in their countries, who didn’t feel appreciated enough at that club so chose to play for another big club in England. Had we played inthe CL regularly, they might have chosen for us.
Hleb and Adebayor were first team regulars at their clubs and played in the Champions League on a regular base. I think the wages they got from Arsenal from the moment they signed are bigger than any player at Everton earned.
Hleb and Adebayor were first team regulars at their clubs and played in the Champions League on a regular base. I think the wages they got from Arsenal from the moment they signed are bigger than any player at Everton earned.
Dave Whitwell
16 Posted 07/05/2008 at 12:12:04
16 Posted 07/05/2008 at 12:12:04
Erik, i’m sure in the case Fabregas your right, as he was at a big club in Spain.
I have mentioned on a post some months back that my belief is when players talk about playing in the CL they want to do it with the clubs from England, Spain & Italy as they are typically the successful ones.
In instances where players play for the likes of Ajax, Fenebache, Shalke, Lyon etc I don’t think its impossible that they would consider moving to the likes of us. Infact both Kallstrom & Asharvin have mentioned as such in the press, and both will play in CL next year if they remain at there clubs.
On the wages side there profile is raised by moving to Arsenal and subsequently there wages increase, if we got in there early enough there’s no reason we can’t give them a rise from where they are currently paid even if its not as much as Arsenal.
Asharvin is a classic example, it looks likely that if we were to stump up the funds we could attract him to Everton now, of course if the likes of Arsenal & Spurs join the race then it starts to get more difficult
I have mentioned on a post some months back that my belief is when players talk about playing in the CL they want to do it with the clubs from England, Spain & Italy as they are typically the successful ones.
In instances where players play for the likes of Ajax, Fenebache, Shalke, Lyon etc I don’t think its impossible that they would consider moving to the likes of us. Infact both Kallstrom & Asharvin have mentioned as such in the press, and both will play in CL next year if they remain at there clubs.
On the wages side there profile is raised by moving to Arsenal and subsequently there wages increase, if we got in there early enough there’s no reason we can’t give them a rise from where they are currently paid even if its not as much as Arsenal.
Asharvin is a classic example, it looks likely that if we were to stump up the funds we could attract him to Everton now, of course if the likes of Arsenal & Spurs join the race then it starts to get more difficult
Rob Newland
17 Posted 07/05/2008 at 13:05:38
17 Posted 07/05/2008 at 13:05:38
Michael Kenrick [[ Why can?t we have both? We had it in the middle of the season. Why not both? ]]
WE. DON?T. HAVE. ANY. MONEY. ;)
We had both because we had healthy, non-fatigued players. Then they got injured and fatigued (we?ve played something like 16 more games than Villa). So what can we do to guard against that? Have more players. Players (especially good ones) tend to cost money. Hence we get back to it being true that you need money. We need less than some other teams because we?re closer -- if merely finishing fourth is our goal then it probably wouldn?t cost us £150 million. We could likely get fourth with about £30-50 spent (assuming no key players were sold). To compete for the title I?d say £100 -- assuming all the purchases were absolutely spot on. Even that?s probably pushing it though.
WE. DON?T. HAVE. ANY. MONEY. ;)
We had both because we had healthy, non-fatigued players. Then they got injured and fatigued (we?ve played something like 16 more games than Villa). So what can we do to guard against that? Have more players. Players (especially good ones) tend to cost money. Hence we get back to it being true that you need money. We need less than some other teams because we?re closer -- if merely finishing fourth is our goal then it probably wouldn?t cost us £150 million. We could likely get fourth with about £30-50 spent (assuming no key players were sold). To compete for the title I?d say £100 -- assuming all the purchases were absolutely spot on. Even that?s probably pushing it though.
Tony Williams
18 Posted 07/05/2008 at 13:10:22
18 Posted 07/05/2008 at 13:10:22
That’s the problem though Dave. There is never an "early enough" anymore due to media speculation, as once we put an offer in the scumbag agent will make it known and then the big guns come in and offer them the world and we cannot compete with that.
James Smith
19 Posted 07/05/2008 at 13:35:34
19 Posted 07/05/2008 at 13:35:34
You don’t need £150 million at all, that’s just the sign of a poor manager reliant on buying his way rather than coaching.
Our problem this season has simply been one of squad depth. If we’d had similarly capable midfield talent towards the end of this season to come in to replace Arteta, Pienaar, Cahill we’d have taken fourth.
Squad depth is something that will improve as time goes by - the XI is pretty much complete now, this summer is a matter of securing that squad depth (be that by signing players to be a squad player, or signing an XI player that pushes your Carsleys onto the bench) by signing 2 or 3 good players. I’d be confident about going into next season if we have 2 new midfielders who are capable.
Our problem this season has simply been one of squad depth. If we’d had similarly capable midfield talent towards the end of this season to come in to replace Arteta, Pienaar, Cahill we’d have taken fourth.
Squad depth is something that will improve as time goes by - the XI is pretty much complete now, this summer is a matter of securing that squad depth (be that by signing players to be a squad player, or signing an XI player that pushes your Carsleys onto the bench) by signing 2 or 3 good players. I’d be confident about going into next season if we have 2 new midfielders who are capable.
Erik Dols
20 Posted 07/05/2008 at 13:30:04
20 Posted 07/05/2008 at 13:30:04
Dave, without getting into a yes-no argument, I think Van Persie was only looking for a team in the big countries that played in the CL regularly. I do not believe that he ever would have considered playing for us, even if we were the only team approaching him. He would have chosen to remain at Feyenoord for another season. But of course this wasn’t about Van Persie specifically.
I’m afraid that it works the other way around: we might come in early and Kallstrom or Arshavin (or however that name is spelled) will just wait if there comes a better offer. Only if the bigger clubs have no interest they might choose to play for us. So basically I agree with Tony W.
However, that doesn’t mean that Everton shouldn’t be trying to buy these players!
I’m afraid that it works the other way around: we might come in early and Kallstrom or Arshavin (or however that name is spelled) will just wait if there comes a better offer. Only if the bigger clubs have no interest they might choose to play for us. So basically I agree with Tony W.
However, that doesn’t mean that Everton shouldn’t be trying to buy these players!
Jason Lam
21 Posted 08/05/2008 at 10:36:29
21 Posted 08/05/2008 at 10:36:29
We need to fill the nos. 7. 9. 10 and 11 with quality players. Promoting Pienaar to 10 does not count.
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