With the downsizing of the retail element of Kirkby, doesn't that mean that the Club are now more liable to stump up more money as I thought the amount we had to pay was related to the uptake in the shop units?

Considering that they can't build the Tesco without us as the 'leisure' element we really are getting pissed about here. First they move the ground, then they lose the car park and now it looks like us to carry most of the risk!

Being for or against Kirkby aside, would most people agree that this is a long way off being the "deal of the century". Unless you're Tesco's that is!!!

Not sure if this has already been brought up, but I am wondering ? what happens if, after a few years, Tesco decide that the supermarket next to the stadium isn?t financially viable anymore and want to close it? What happens if all or most of the retailers around the site decide to sell up as they find it hard to make ends meet? Would we be left with a football ground in the middle of nowhere surrounded by of a load of boarded up shops and supermarket, and more importantly what sort of financial impact would this have on the club?

The latest move on the move is that its been rejected by Knowsley Council. As a No voter the relocation has appeared to be in the balance for weeks, so this isn't a surprise.

On the same day this "bad "news appears, the shite get approval to build on green belt land. I know we shouldn't care about them but how annoying is this!?

This Destination Kirkbly move reeks of the same bullshit we were fed with the Kings Dock. And if it doesn't come round we will be left with egg on our face again. Promising the world but delivering nothing.

Quoting from the following article in The Post :-

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2008/05/07/everton-s-new-stadium-plan-moves-step-closer-64375-20871674/


Objections:-
"Liverpool?s planning committee was set to formally object to the Kirkby project, but yesterday it deferred making the decision because of the ?significant? changes proposed by Tesco....
Sefton Council planning committee is due to meet today, and councillors had also been advised to object to ?Destination Kirkby?. It is likely the council will now rethink its response."

Retail money:-
"..One of the justifications for the size of the retail element was to ?cross fund? the new stadium. The downgrading on the shopping floorspace is not believed to affect the amount the club will have to fund, instead Tesco will take less profit."
--------------
Also, I’m assuming that in addition to the above naming rights, the club would be hoping to get some dosh from Bellefield and eventually from a sell off of Goodison? Not sure how much they would come to but if all the numbers stack up then it is pretty good deal financially.

I realise all involved with Everton FC/Tesco see the supporters as dull-brained cattle, to be herded hither and thither. I?m a season-ticket holder and even I see us like that sometimes.... but fuck ME!! You would have to have had your brains sucked through your brown-and-bitter to believe that this ?move? is some sort of instant reaction.

Cue neighbours theme tune

SEFTON: "HEY, TEZ YOU CAN?T PUT YOUR SHED THERE, A BIT OF IT?S GOING ONTO MY GARDEN!"

SIR TEZLINTON; "SORRY MATE, I?LL MOVE IT BACK A BIT...THERE OK?"

SEFTON: "SOUND...CHEERS LAD!!"

This is what we?re being asked to believe.

"Hey don?t put your £400 million shopping centre there"

" Sorry... It?s only £300M now...that better?"

"Yup, Cheers!" etc etc etc.

PT Barnum was spot on - a sucker born every minute (and I?m almost certainly one of em?).

To be honest Dave, I?m not bothered who?s to blame if it goes "Tits Up" just so long as it doesn?t go ahead. It?s tearing apart the soul of our club and isn?t going to be good for our future.

£60 million? Who are they kidding? Arsenal got £50m for 15 yrs. If anyone thinks we could get more than a club in the nations capital who regularly play in the most prestigious club tournament in the world, giving them a much higher profile than we presently have, then they would quite frankly be mad. And no it wasn?t £90m, there was £40m shirt sponsorship in that figure.

Anyone remember these comments from TK Maxx ?were such a development to occur at a smaller scale or on a more limited basis, the key benefits to the scheme would not exist?
and this from DTZ ?reducing the level of retailing reduces the level of cross subsidy that is available to fund the stadium, meaning that the stadium becomes unviable?.

There?s more to this than meets the eye.

I would like to expand on the the last sentence of Ron Bentham?s post "more to this than meets the eye"... As I have stated previously, most of opposition to the Kirby move is by people who have personel financial interests and do not have the interest of Everton Football Club at heart.

The Liverpool City Council among others quickly rubber stamp any proposal put before them by Liverpool FC and like the King?s Dock episode put every roadblock in it?s way to have it stopped irrespective of wether Everton could obtain the finances. Warren Bradley is just another phony politician suggesting he has attempted to support Everton in their quest for a new ground. Failure to move from the antiquated Goodison Park will be the demise of the club, stay still and die.

Glibbly complaining about the move with still no viable alternate being put forward by anyone in the past 18 months surely is pure folly. Finally the current transportation to and from Goodison is an absolutely disgrace as are the facilities in and around the ground.

Frank, do the fascilities at GP stop you from going? Would you not go to a game there because the toilets stink of piss? Somehow I don?t think so.

We will all go and watch our beloved Everton no matter were they play but how come these arguments are coming to the fore now? Goodison hasn?t been in the best condition for a few years but people only mention that as soon as there is any opposition to moving to the "TescoDome"

The proposed ground is not a work of art. It is a distinctively average stadium by today's standards. It only looks good because GP is so poor and in 100 years time (which is roughly how long weve had Goodison Park) the stadium in Kirby will have poor facilities compared to grounds around at that time.

I appreciate your view Frank and agree with some of it but we have to look into the long-term here and this move isn?t right for the future of Everton Football Club.

So if this is the wrong move, what is the right one?

I can?t suggest anything so I won?t, but whatever happens, we are born Evertonians and will die as such.

It?s just like trying to get the missus to try anal sex: "Once you get used to it love, you?ll wonder how you ever managed without it" :-)

Hi Dean
Using your analogy, could it be she’d be more willing to do it with a different partner in a better location?

I admit I do not go to Goodison that frequently, although I have been there at most, if not all of the important games over the last 25 years and I still manage to get up there at least a couple of times a season. I can't understand this argument about facilities beeing so bad at GP. I travel up to GP in my car with my 8-year-old son (takes just short of three hours), park in the Stanley Park car park for eight quid (a bit steep but not if you take into account I've already paid 6 quid to drive on a motorway for about 10 miles (M6 toll). We then walk through the park to the club shop, in and out of there within 20 minutes and always satisfied as they always have stuff in there that you can't get online! We then go into the ground about half an hour before the game, never have to wait more than a minute or so to get a Chang, get something to eat again no waiting, and then go and take our seats about quarter to.

Now I know that that's just my routine and it's a lot different to when i was younger when i would leave it to the last minute, maybe later to get in. When i get into the ground, it's empty and it stays more or less empty untill just before kick off. This means two things:

1) All the money that could be spent in GP is being spent in local boozers.

2) Crappy atmosphere.

At half time I dont need another drink or another pie,all I need is a piss, and I manage that quite comfortably, so does my boy. I just don't get what new facilities you want. 95% of supporters are in the ground for no more than 105 minutes. What do you want? How many times can you piss in just over an hour and a half? How many Pukka pies can you eat ffs?

Surely watching EFC win and play well is all that needs to happen on match days. I suppose we could improve on the laughable half-time entertainment on offer, but on the other hand it is quite amusing!

We very rarely sell out our ground,we have an average gate of 36,000 about 95% capacity, what is the reason we are moving? I honestly cant see one, apart from making the club ie BK and BB a more sellable proposition when the shiny new Kirkbydome is eventually delivered 3 years late and £50 million over budget

l.

I?ve never had problems getting to and from GP.

As for viable options, there have been several, very thorough case studies into redeveloping GP in phases that have shown the total cost to be no greater than building on a landfill site, and with far less exposure to debt by allowing the stadium to fund itself phase by phase.

I?m not anti-Kirkby, but I don?t like the project as it?s been laid out. Ill-conceived lash-up is the phrase that springs to mind. If some of my Project Managers or Planners came to me with something in that state, I?d sack 'em.

Frank obviously hasn't heard of Walton Hall Park nor Sainsbury's nor of the existing plans for GP to be redeveloped that BK refused to even look at. Nor has he heard that you have to take a bike to Kirkby. Nor has he heard that it will cost millions to decontaminate the land that the stadium is to be built on in Krkby.

Sorry Frank, if you?re gonna contribute to this debate get with it. GP is not about to be closed down nor fall down. That is a myth provided by Keith "The Illusionist" Wyness and his sidekick Bill" Smoke and Mirrors" Kenwright.

"Stay at Goodison and die"!!!!!!!! ? Over a century here now; I think it can handle a few more years, mate, and let's be fair, if it was not for Billybull's dithering over the last ten years, we could of had the old girl gradually completed by now. And what's the bet, if Kirkby does fall through, a Plan B will appear within a week... providing the liar does not resign that is.

Something quite definitely does not stack up. This Elstone character - the club got him from Deloitte & Touche? Can it really be the case that this man is serious about coming near to the deal - and in this climate - that Arsenal got from Emirates Airline? And what companies are they pitching to that wouldn?t know about the antipathy for the proposed stadium and show them the door with their dvd unopened quick fucking smart?

The question should not be ?can we get £60m naming rights? but ?can we get much of the £78m we need to find? - In my opinion we should get most of that £78m via naming rights, sale of Goodison and sale of Bellefield. The good news that Tesco are dropping a QUARTER of the retail to make the retail plan better balanced with ?material considerations? - while not dumping more of the costs on the club is a very good thing in my book.

Look at the comedy deals they get for our shirt sponsors compared to everyone else, even City get twice as much as us a year for shirt sponsoring and these clowns think their Dvd will get them a better deal than Arsenal, they are a joke, but no doubt it will come out as an undisclosed sum like so often does when they want to hide something.

Yeah, right Mr Ross, err, I meant Mr Madden!

Gerard why do you believe all the spin and I mean every last drop of it? Fair enough have your views but you believe every single word that comes out of this Kirkby farce and yet the people you are putting faith in year after year sell us lies, does this not worry you or are you Ian Ross?

Dunno if anyone has more info on this; the powers that be at Destination Kirkby and Tesco have not responded. Seems like the stadium has lost its entire basement level on the amended plans. Nothing to do with cost I?m sure... just responding to the concerns of the people.

Forgive my stupity, but where does the naming partner come into this equation.

The original proposittion says we are the enabling partner and the application falls if we back out. It also states that the present ownership (of Everton)will still be in place on completion.

The scaling down of retail space other than the Tesco supersized shop is no surprise considering the buyout of the opposition for 65 million quid.
With a catchment of Kirkby of 40,000 people, are the surrounding municipalities now looking o have the upper hand? I sincerly hope so. One point to note is , the municipalities we speak off are a throwback to the sixties councillor wise. Doffing cap and all that shit. Do not expect opposition to go the full length.

Kilfoyle is a fine example of this. Publicly he does not give a shit. Quite similar to Bully in my opinion.
What I would give to see the documents that Kenwright has signed up to regarding this move. He must behaving nightmares.

Adam Cunliffe many thanks for the comments you made,as you say we all have opinions and we can agree to disagree without unneccessary comments and profanity. I believe all Evertonians at heart want what is best for the club and it’s future existance as a top club.

Frankie Mac, you said "Glibbly complaining about the move with still no viable alternate being put forward by anyone in the past 18 months surely is pure folly. Finally the current transportation to and from Goodison is an absolutely disgrace as are the facilities in and around the ground."

Well the truth is out that there HAVE BEEN viable alternatives put forward in the past 18 months but the Board refuse to consider them and have hidden behind the ’eclusivity agreement’

As for the disgraceful transportation and facilities around the ground, this comment will apply more so to Kirkby.

If this debate is to have an ounce of credibility Michael should jump on anything that is not based of proven or provable fact.
I am sick to death of innuendo, scuttlebut, personal attacks and venomous crap that infested previous stadium debates.
I was hoping this latest debate would be aimed at a higher level of intelligence.
My sincere apologies to all those who have contributed genuine informative articles. It is a pity they have been and continue to be innundated by garbage only fit for the sewer.

Frank,

I am as passionate about the best interests of Everton Football Club as anyone you will find. I have seen over 1000 games at Goodison.

I am also passionate about destroying this move to Kirkby in any way I can contribute, since I belive that would be in the best interests of the football club.

I have no financial interest in this whatsoever, other than the fact that my season ticket money will stay in my pocket should this move ever take place.

I know I hold the same views as all of the people I go to the game with, and all of the people who sit around me in the Upper Gwladys.

I don’t know a single passionate Yes voter.

I do know a couple who voted Yes on the strength of the shite fed to them in the ballot brochure and in the tame local press, but they are now having doubts.

As for the council rubber-stamping everything that Liverpool ask for, and denying Everton even the Kings Dock, I think you need to go back ad re-read what really happened.

The council bent over backwards to give Everton extra time to find the money. A solution was found, through Paul Gregg, but Kenwright wouldn’t run with it.

It is the board of Everton Football Club who should be hanging their heads in shame. Kenwright was a member of the board before he became Chairman, and he sat back and watched whilst the club was systematically run down. He appointed Wyness, who has stripped the club of all but a couple of its assets, and then shouted about being one the 20 richest clubs.

We are now being led by the nose by Tesco who will drop us like a shot if it jeopardises their ultimate plans. Was this move the result of a careful plan, looking at all of the options and making a considered decision? No - it came about because Kenwright was talking to Terry Leahy about something else and the idea cropped up. What a way to run a club - or any business.

I just pray - for the good of Everton Football Club and with no financial interest - that this lot are sent packing as soon as the whole pack of cards comes crashing down.

Dick, If I started doing that, there would be no debate.

It’s an emotional subject. It drills deep down to people’s personal perceptions of what the club is and what it should be doing to further itself for the next 50-100 years.

It hangs strongly on one’s ability to trust or to question what we have been told by people with power and authority. It’s going to throw up strong feelings, strong reactions ranging form earnest and thoughtful research and analysis to blind spin provided by club plants.

Just roll with it, man!

Most of the time I get incredibly pissed off with this current board because they are so inept but because of this I have every faith that they cannot deliver on this Kirkby project. The Kings Dock was the chance of a lifetime for our club and Kenwright fucked it up so why is anyone worried about him being able to deliver this "deal of a lifetime"?

He can’t, the man is a luvvie not a business man. He is completely out of his depth now the Premier League has become such big business. I honestly believe the Kirkby deal is already dead in the water and Kenwright’s tenure at our club is nearly finished.

Madden
"We can get most of the £78 million from naming rights, the sale of bellfield and the sale of goodison" ?
Just so I know you have the slightest idea what you are talking about, How much do you think we?ll get for Bellefield ???