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5th

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Would finishing 5th be detrimental to us next season? I have been thinking about this for some time and have come to the conclusion that if we are to push for the top 4. As all seem to want us to do so. Then the Uefa Cup is not a worthy distraction.

Let's face it. It is not worth 2 toots on a rag man's trumpet.... unless you get to the final. The extra games will put more pressure on a wafer-thin squad, that does not look like being strengthened in the summer to any great degree. League form will suffer and players will be either knackered or injured.

My point is this. If we have any ideas about breaking into the hallowed 4, then we do not. need the distraction of a Mickey Mouse cup that will not attract the top players, or do us any favours in the later half of the season when we have played a load more games than the rest.

The teams below us. ie. Spurs, Portsmouth, Villa etc. Will all have money to spend, a lot more than we do. The Uefa Cup will do us no favours to my my mind.
Dave  Lynch, Merseyside     Posted 08/05/2008 at 14:41:27

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Michael Kenrick
I totally disagree. I am amazed how so many have bought in to this lie that our collapse in the last quarter of what was looking to be a very successful season was caused by fatigue, tiredness, too many games... It's absolute bollocks.

What did for us was LOSING critical games (Chelsea, Fiorentina). If we had carried on winning, there would have been boundless energy to play all the games we could. That's why I was so astounded at how accepting many people were when we did lose these games. People accepted that we would go out on penalties ? we always do. People accepted that Chelsea would beat us ? they nearly always do, cos they've got more money!

With attitudes like that, we never will scale the heights. Hiding behind the litany of excuses about money and investment, rather than acknowledging that these failures were the direct result of the manager's infamous defensive and overly cautious apporocah to critical big games. That is the real message of this season for me.

Steve Sweeney
1   Posted 08/05/2008 at 10:17:11

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I have read the moans highs and lows posted on this site and for the life of me why no-one is castigating BK is beyond me. That man is the real problem with the club. He has no Financial muscle, cannot and does not want , to attract any investment that will dilute his ownership.

The man is a millstone tied around the club's neck. He and his cohort Wyness have talked up the stadium move with propaganda that Goebles would have been proud of. The fact that we are in 5th spot is a bloody miracle.

The man tells us supporters that he is looking for investment 24/7 and yet in the planning propsals put forward by Tesco the board have no intention of selling the club. So BK which is it, you will be remebered as the worst chairman in the History of this club.

Mike Allison
2   Posted 08/05/2008 at 16:50:40

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Why not sack off the League and FA cups as well? That way we can concentrate on the competitive excitement of the Premier League and might even win it!
Albert Dock
3   Posted 08/05/2008 at 17:02:52

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Does anybody know what prize money we made from this year?s Uefa Cup run?
Tim Keen
4   Posted 08/05/2008 at 17:15:03

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For me the end of season collapse has had more to do with injuries to our entire midfield with Arteta, Cahill, Osman and Pienaar missing various games then any inherant negativity or attitude problem.

Obviously the more games you play the more injuries you pick up but surely the whole point of football is to play games?!
I loved our European campaign and we seemed to get better as it went on.

We need a bigger squad to cope with the extra 10-15 games we’ll play than the non-UEFA cup teams but then it does all come down to what we can afford.
Adam Cunliffe
5   Posted 08/05/2008 at 17:13:55

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Mikey Mouse cup. What a load of crap. We didn?t think it was a mikey mouse cup when we were in Nurumberg, Alkmaar,Bergen and Florence so what has changed? Travelling round Europe watching the blues is great no matter what competition it?s in. Calling it a Mikey Mouse cup is complete rubbish. I bet it wasn?t a Mikey Mouse cup when you were singing the "Were going to City twice" song.
Graham Darlington
6   Posted 08/05/2008 at 17:12:13

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I seem to remember reading somewhere a few years ago, after Middlesbrough got to the final, that they reckoned to have made just over a million smackers from their UEFA Cup campaign, including TV revenue and prize money. That was after they’d subtracted all the costs of getting 50 or so people to far flung parts of the continent - paid all their hotel costs, player bonuses etc. Small beer compared to the Champions League were teams can apparantly receive as much from winning a group stage or later knock out tie.
Gavin James
7   Posted 08/05/2008 at 17:29:46

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Even if we’re unsure of the actual figures, we’re all aware of the fact that the revenue from the UEFA Cup is nothing compared to the big bucks of the Champions League, but for a club like us who can’t pay the big wages it’s hugely important to be playing in.
There’s no way Yakubu would have joined had we not qualified last season and where would we have been without him this year?
Marc Fathim
8   Posted 08/05/2008 at 17:42:40

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Uefa Cup football could be the only advantage we have over other clubs attracting players. Pompey look certain to get a place and if Villa pip us to 5th why not go to Spurs, Newcastle or Man City. That would make us the 10th most desirable team in the Premier League........ no wonder Valente has signed on for another season.
Shane Corcoran
9   Posted 08/05/2008 at 18:18:08

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Surely by playing in this tournament we are gaining good experience of playing against teams with different styles, Moyes is learning also. We should also attract better players, assuming they?re not in it just for the money. Zenit St. Petersburg will be in the Champions League next year and it must stand them in good stead that they had the experience of playing the likes of Villarreal, Marseille & Bayern Munich this season? I understand the other side of the argument but I?d rather progress gradually than jump straight into the Champions League like we did three years ago.
Alison Maeer
10   Posted 08/05/2008 at 18:25:14

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Why do people automatically assume we shall be contenders again next year? Do they really believe that professional players give so much of themselves they can?t sustain effort till mid May but will be raring to go come next August? Do they honestly think that Cahill and Arteta will magically be fit for every game next season? Do they truly believe that Moyes will sign the commanding midfield general we?ve needed since he arrived?

What we?ve seen in the last two months is totally disgraceful crap and I?ve little doubt there?s more in store in 2008-09.

Nelly Blythe
11   Posted 08/05/2008 at 18:31:01

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Here....Here Michael !!!
Tony Connor
12   Posted 08/05/2008 at 18:45:00

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Oh FFS...quite apart from making us more attractive to potential signings and giving our relatively young squad vital experience if/when we do break into the top 4 and get to the qualifiers of the CL our performances in the UEFA Cup will have a direct bearing on the stature of club we play in the qualifiers and how we are seeded in the group stages (should we get there) of the CL

It is absolutely imperative that we keep notching up performances in the UEFA Cup until we can break iinto the CL

It?s not about the money earned from euro adventures...it?s about the momentum

Moyes has built slowly but surely from a very low base line...he knows that without an Abramovich (or similalry rich gangster) he needs to improve incrementally and he?s doing it...but equally he knows that the momentum must be maintained and that means consistent top 5/6 finishes and European football...of whatever type we can get..until we break the glass ceiling.

It?s likely to be a long journey and there will be failures along the way but at least we have a person at the helm with a PLAN...not just some flash in the pan wally who blows £30-50M each Summer taking his team precisely nowhere.
Jay Harris
13   Posted 08/05/2008 at 19:02:31

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A lot of good posts reinforcing that we enjoy our European adventure and hopefully more to come.

But Steve Sweeney is absolutely spot on we need to let the Everton Board know how dissatisfied we are with the embarssing shambles that is Kirkby.

The fact we are still making operating losses.

The fact that we have the lowest non-gate receipt income of the top 10 teams.

The fact that "the rabbit out of the hat man" lied blatantly for 5 years about seeking investment 24/7 when all along he has had no intention of diluting his shareholding.
Who was he seeking 24/7 Father bloody Xmas?

Somebody also needs to explain why we had £12 million last August to buy Ferndandes ("He will be signing in the morning") and £6 million off Faddy and yet Moyes has been "locked in talks" with BK for the last few months according to Wyness.
Ian MacHenry
14   Posted 08/05/2008 at 19:19:47

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I can see were your coming from but disagree completley ... I think it’s had the opposite affect, this run has definitely inspired us in the league. When your winning games you don’t get tired or feel fatigue, the manner in which we were knocked out in the 2nd leg against Fiorentina after dominating and putting so much into that game, combined with the Carling Cup semi final defeat had a serious affect on the final run in for the season. But I think we would have suffered far worse had we been knocked out by Metalist Kharkiv... To have been knocked out in the 1st round again would have knocked the confidence in the players Moyes & Club clean out and we certainly wouldn’t be lying fifth know.
Steve Mink
15   Posted 08/05/2008 at 19:56:52

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My line on all of this is that we can start to be choosy on which cups we are giving priority after we have put some silverware in the cabinet.
Chris Fowler
16   Posted 08/05/2008 at 19:53:57

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The fact is, if you want to attract quality players you’ve got to be able to offer them European football - preferably Champions League, but if not then at least the UEFA Cup. Hopefully the fact that we are in the UEFA Cup next season for the 2nd season in a row and are knocking on the door of a Champions League spot will allow us to sign players of the calibre that is needed to allow us to progress to the next level.
Dave Lynch
17   Posted 08/05/2008 at 20:33:00

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I’ll take that as a resounding NO then. Shall i lads.
Viv Sharma
18   Posted 08/05/2008 at 20:52:13

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Dave, First off, thanks for creating a even handed discussion as oppossed to the all to often shouting-matches that often take place here! haha, hats off to you!
Secondly, I have one more reason to add to the list of reasons the uefa cup is a definate positive.
I have been a fan since I was maybe 5 yrs old. No Idea why everton, no reason at all, just found myself wanting them to win and all my life that love has only grown. Yes I have my tantrums and disapointments but when Ossie scored that cracking goal against Larrissa and my redshite-supporting mate texted me "its like watching Brazil", or when Arteta scored that equalizer and I thought my heart was going to beat out of my chest, THAT was the reason we need the uefa cup. Not only for the above reasons for why it would benefit the club, but for me. For us. For the fans who need a realistic dream! No one would be against it had we won the cup and yes, it was a good feeling to get fourth and CL and of course its great for the club but what is the club without happy fans?

The truth is that 4th isn’t a solid trophy.
So heres praying the Yak on gets 2 against the barcodes, Howard gets his clean sheet (that he most thoroughly deserves imho) and we get more heart-stopping drama to cheer and hide behind the sofa over...COYB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
James McCarthy
19   Posted 08/05/2008 at 22:15:41

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Steve S and Jay H, It may be difficult for you but please confine your Anti Kirkby venom to threads dedicated to that topic.
Steve Templeton
20   Posted 08/05/2008 at 22:49:26

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Sam Allardyce stated on Sky Sports after the Newcastle v Chelsea match that every player in the world wants to play in in the Premier League and when Bolton qualified for Europe it made it much easier for them to attract players.

It will strengthen our hand in the summer transfer market if we can point to another Uefa Cup campaign next season to our possible signings.
Dan Parker
21   Posted 08/05/2008 at 23:33:35

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Your point around penalties is an interesting one Michael. It?s the British way to focus on negatives and think ?oh no, we won?t win, not penalities again? whereas other cultures focus on the positives (whether sometimes justified or not). Overall, those that think positive will generally do better than those that are constantly negative.

That?s why we invent things and never make any money out of it!
Jay Harris
22   Posted 09/05/2008 at 01:01:57

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James McCarthy - and your contribution to the topic was?
If you read my thread properly you will see it was not about Kirkby it was about the shambles of a board that runs EFC badly and therefore does not do enough to support the team.
I hope that makes easier reading for you.
Gary Hughes
23   Posted 09/05/2008 at 02:19:35

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Sometimes I despair of fellow Evertonians. On what twised logic do you base this shite on? You look at UEFA Cup as a hinderence? What the fuck do you want? Is the opportunity to win a trophy somehow offensive to you? Carling Cup, UEFA Cup, I’d take any of them with open arms. In case you hadn’t noticed we haven’t won a fucking thing for 13 years, I couldn’t give two fucks about prize money or profit margins because EFC’s bank balance however good or bad does not make me happy or proud, whereas watching them lift a trophy does. Given a choice of a trophy or 4th I would take the trophy everytime, you know why? Because we finished 4th not so long ago & it’s not all it’s cracked up o be.
Eric Myles
24   Posted 09/05/2008 at 02:53:17

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If we hadn’t of gotten into the UEFA Cup in this season we wouldn’t have such a good co-efficient to make us one of the top teams when we qualify for the Champions League at the end of next season.

So let’s just win the UEFA Cup next season so the lads have got some long awaited practice at holding a cup.
Jason Lam
25   Posted 09/05/2008 at 04:32:06

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This is a tough one. I think we all agree that we simply can’t ’choose’ 4th or UEFA Cup, as though it was a given. End of discussion :-)

As much as we would like to get hold of silverware, it shouldn’t be a one-off like FA Cup 1995, with no evidence of development in the league thereafter (and 13+ year drought). I believe (and hope) Moyes and the board build for sustained European football, so that if we’re lucky, we may reach a final one day. It’s exciting and refreshing for players and fans to visit/view new opponents and their unorthordox playing styles (compared to PL). It’s been a strange year with only 1 UEFA spot this season, normally 7th would do it.

IMHO, this Everton with Moyes is built for the league where consistency against lower teams is the focus, and damage control against the top4. Boring? I think it’s a honest and prudent long-term management. COYBs
Jason Lam
26   Posted 09/05/2008 at 05:19:17

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Another thing about penalty shoot-outs. They are not lottery. It’s working with the lads on the mental and psychology side, how they go through the motions in a structured and calm manner as the step up to take the penalty. Something similar to pitching in baseball (but don’t take me word for it). Why is it that Italians and Germans usually win out? But when you have English managers such as Venables and Hoddle telling you it’s a lottery then we’ve already lost. Shoot-outs are part of the modern game so do something positive and proactive about it FFS.
Ste Lewis
27   Posted 09/05/2008 at 09:29:58

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The news last night showed images of a packed manchester city centre with giant screens showing the footie (England World Cup), theyre going to do it again for the Uefa Cup Final with thousands of ticketless Rangers/Zenit fans lining the streets to watch the game. Who would not want that to be us? It is not unfeasible that could have been us.

Through most of my adult life (I?m 28) I could not have said with any conviction that we could win the Uefa Cup. We can. The Uefa Cup will give some of our younger players a fantastic grounding for future CL exploits too. Would people seriously give a run in Europe up for the ?achievement? of finishing 4th? Where?s the memories in 4th place?

John Jones
28   Posted 09/05/2008 at 10:29:49

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Playing in Europe regularly means we can attract better players, meaning we are more likely to crack the top 4 again. Simple really.

It’s no co-incidence we were playing our best football when we had 2 games a week either, the team were more gelled playing more games. I’m not having it that professionals who spend all their time training and keeping their fitness up would struggle playing twice a week.

The only thing thats caused the slump is the fallout of going out of Europe, coupled with injuries to our best players, nothing to do with playing more games.

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