The Mail Bag
Injuries to key players
Comments (17)
Just wanted to make a quick reference to the players who are undergoing treatment and operations for injuries now the season has finished. Whilst certain fans were getting on the team's back for the poor performances and the way the season tailed off, I think its obvious now that many players were playing with bad injuries. Baines and Arteta are to have ops, I think Hibbert is out for 3 months, and Lescott is having treatment on his knees.
I think these players deserve special praise for their commitment to the team and season for playing through the pain barrier. It goes to show how much they care about the club and finishing as high as possible in the league. Well done boys!
Andy Hudson, Posted 14/05/2008 at 15:58:10
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Michael Hunt
1 Posted 14/05/2008 at 16:34:04
1 Posted 14/05/2008 at 16:34:04
100% agree with you Michael. An ’accident waiting to happen’ with a squad of our small size (in numbers and stature).
Andy Hudson
2 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:17:50
2 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:17:50
Well this thread wasn’t really started to debate squad sizes but more to single out certain players for their commitment to the team. Again Michael you find a way of turning a positive comment in to a negative argument against the manager. At the start of the season if we’d been offered 5th with a good run in europe and the semi’s of a domestic cup we’d have all taken it... so maybe moyes got it right with his squad size, cause we finished as high as could be hoped for beofre the season began. Ok with a bigger squad size maybe our challeneg for 4th would have lasted longer... but how would we have a bigger squad? We’d have had to have passed up on buying the Yak and bought 2 or 3 squad players... if we had we wouldn’t have finsihed 5th anyway.
David OBrien
3 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:23:44
3 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:23:44
Selling the Scottish Rooney WAS good business, yea we could have done with more numbers but if you remember he left because he wasn’t playing enough or starting enough - duh!!!!
Phil Hamer
4 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:16:21
4 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:16:21
Take a breath Michael. Thats just stream of conciousness in written form.
On the one hand you pinpoint the ’ridiculous’ small squad and resultant injury crises for the poor end of season form. Then you blame the ’failure’ to cope with the psychological blow of Europe.
Which is it ?
In there somewhere is a valid point. A player should never have to play through the pain barrier as Arteta and others plainly did recently. I’m sure that won’t need to happen next season as this summer will be one of serious squad strengthening. Of that I’m very confident.
On the one hand you pinpoint the ’ridiculous’ small squad and resultant injury crises for the poor end of season form. Then you blame the ’failure’ to cope with the psychological blow of Europe.
Which is it ?
In there somewhere is a valid point. A player should never have to play through the pain barrier as Arteta and others plainly did recently. I’m sure that won’t need to happen next season as this summer will be one of serious squad strengthening. Of that I’m very confident.
Nick Entwistle
5 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:28:47
5 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:28:47
I thought it more the draw against West Ham that took it out of the players. We should have had a goal and it all went tits up from there. Ok the Fulham game was a mess before that, but it was the way we let points slip v the Hammers which is where hopes started to go.
Michael Kenrick
6 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:23:30
6 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:23:30
Andy, it’s all a reflection of your philosophy, of what you believe is possible, of what you will accept as reasonable ? the debate we’ve had all season long. But this I totally reject: "At the start of the season if we?d been offered 5th with a good run in Europe and the semi?s of a domestic cup we?d have all taken it..."
First off, it simply does not work like that. Nobody stands up and offers that at the beginning of the season. It’s a meaningless soundbyte that has somehow become a popular metric for judging something but to me it is nonsense. The concept is ridiculous and it undermines the basic tennet of league play and football itself, which is that you play the games and you play to win.
Success builds on success. If you can spend a quarter of the season in the top four, especially the third quarter, then it’s important to me to understand why you can’’t sustain that, and what lessons you will learn from it to put you in a better position to sustain it next time around.
If the lesson supposedly is tiredness from "too many games"... more absolute rubbish. If the lesson is perhaps we should try to do better in the January window... and not bring in injured players... but no; apparently it’s the "wrong time to buy"!
First off, it simply does not work like that. Nobody stands up and offers that at the beginning of the season. It’s a meaningless soundbyte that has somehow become a popular metric for judging something but to me it is nonsense. The concept is ridiculous and it undermines the basic tennet of league play and football itself, which is that you play the games and you play to win.
Success builds on success. If you can spend a quarter of the season in the top four, especially the third quarter, then it’s important to me to understand why you can’’t sustain that, and what lessons you will learn from it to put you in a better position to sustain it next time around.
If the lesson supposedly is tiredness from "too many games"... more absolute rubbish. If the lesson is perhaps we should try to do better in the January window... and not bring in injured players... but no; apparently it’s the "wrong time to buy"!
David OBrien
7 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:35:26
7 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:35:26
It’s not as simple as ’learning from the last time round’. On that basis - a stack load more players would solve the problems encountered this year surely? Utter crap Michael. How did then, our smaller squad finish 4th?? How??? Man City spent a decent amount of time in the top 4 and then they faded - is that because of squad size?? Nope that’s crap too and they have 11 Strikers - yes 11. They have 9 Midfielders, 10 defenders and 3 goalkeepers. They were not in Europe either so they had less games. So how do City learn from the last time round? Suddenly it’s not that easy is it?
John Lloyd
8 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:43:36
8 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:43:36
"First off, it simply does not work like that. Nobody stands up and offers that at the beginning of the season. It?s a meaningless soundbyte that has somehow become a popular metric for judging something but to me it is nonsense. The concept is ridiculous and it undermines the basic tennet of league play and football itself, which is that you play the games and you play to win. "
But in the real world Michael, the clubs players, management & directors accept that you cant win every game even with the greatest team/squad imaginable. There will always be other factors, such as injuries, form, suspensions & another team trying to beat you or stop you from winning.
So what the clubs do is set themselves targets for a season, as do the fans, although it usually differs, but my point is that our target for this season as stated by Moyes himself was to qualify for europe, consolidate top 6 (before we knew 6th wouldnt be enough!) and hopefully win or get close to a trophy.
Now as we discussed before a number of things could ruin your plans making it tough/difficult/impossible to achieve your targets as most clubs find during course of the season.....but not us!!! We have achieved or gotten very close to our targets (good cup runs, but no trophy) so if someone would have said to us or offered us this outcome at the start of the season......WE WOULD OF TAKEN IT. Simple as mate
But in the real world Michael, the clubs players, management & directors accept that you cant win every game even with the greatest team/squad imaginable. There will always be other factors, such as injuries, form, suspensions & another team trying to beat you or stop you from winning.
So what the clubs do is set themselves targets for a season, as do the fans, although it usually differs, but my point is that our target for this season as stated by Moyes himself was to qualify for europe, consolidate top 6 (before we knew 6th wouldnt be enough!) and hopefully win or get close to a trophy.
Now as we discussed before a number of things could ruin your plans making it tough/difficult/impossible to achieve your targets as most clubs find during course of the season.....but not us!!! We have achieved or gotten very close to our targets (good cup runs, but no trophy) so if someone would have said to us or offered us this outcome at the start of the season......WE WOULD OF TAKEN IT. Simple as mate
Andy Hudson
9 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:47:44
9 Posted 14/05/2008 at 17:47:44
Ok then Michael, how would you have increased the squad size? Bought more players. Well actually yes that would solve the problem. I actually think if we’d signed Kaka, Messi and Torres we’d possibly have won the league... however this obviously isnt realistic. neither is increasing teh squad size without the finance being available. I think given the money available Moyes bought well. he bought a few quality players rather then lots of squad players... therefore we had a good but small squad. To quote you "it?s all a reflection of your philosophy, of what you believe is possible, of what you will accept as reasonable". I think your expectations and what you believe to be resonable are unrealistic. But as with everyone on here you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that... I just wish you were a little less negative all the time
Brian Lawlor
10 Posted 14/05/2008 at 19:13:52
10 Posted 14/05/2008 at 19:13:52
Arteta is going.
Why does he deserve special praise? He?s been shit since Xmas and he?s gone back to Spain on several occassions for ?rehabilative? treatment. In other words visiting his bird.
I believe he has shown the complete opposite i.e. a lack of commitment which is going to culminate this Summer in his departure.
Why does he deserve special praise? He?s been shit since Xmas and he?s gone back to Spain on several occassions for ?rehabilative? treatment. In other words visiting his bird.
I believe he has shown the complete opposite i.e. a lack of commitment which is going to culminate this Summer in his departure.
Alan Instone
11 Posted 14/05/2008 at 19:26:17
11 Posted 14/05/2008 at 19:26:17
Love him or hate him, Moyes has wasted some money on ?no shows?. Look at Gravesen, Gardner and Baines let alone VdM. All serially injured before they were signed. No good signing squad players if they can?t contribute. Who the feck does the homework on these expensive liabilities?
I know, I know, WS did the same but WTF has that to do with it?
I know, I know, WS did the same but WTF has that to do with it?
Ferdie Mann
12 Posted 14/05/2008 at 19:32:01
12 Posted 14/05/2008 at 19:32:01
Agree with you, Alan. I reckon that little lot will have taken at least £100K a week in wages. That?s £5M up the swanny in a year. No wonder Kenwright is asking a few questions of the Moyestro. A little bit of research would have found what liabilities that quartet would be.
Andy Hudson
13 Posted 14/05/2008 at 19:40:37
13 Posted 14/05/2008 at 19:40:37
Ok Alan & Ferdie maybe Gravesen and Gardner didn't play but as far as I know both were signed on a pay as you pay basis and Baines hardly ever missed a game for Wigan... Who the feck did your research?
Gordon Blair
14 Posted 14/05/2008 at 19:34:12
14 Posted 14/05/2008 at 19:34:12
Graveson, Gardener, VdM cost £1.75M between them. Baines will prove to be a good buy.
Gardener was brought in on the chance that Jags would not be up to filling Joey’s boots during AfCoN. Phil did have a rocky start to the season, and Gardener wouldn’t have needed to be instantly fit, just ready for filling the gap.
Tommy was another opportunity to bring in quality for not much, ostensibly to take the load off Mikky’s shoulders.. when it became apparent that his legs had gone, Manny was brought back in.
I think a lot of people thought under 2Mill for VdM was worth a gamble (if only we knew then.... )
The point is, yep, some of the money was wasted, but compared to some, Moyes’ mistakes are getting quite cheap, while his hits are proving quite valuable (how much of a risk was Lescott at 5M having missed an entire season with knee trouble?... win some, lose some).
As for you Michael, god bless you, I’d love to live in your world, where fivers sprout from every bush. However, it’s clearly apparent that DM is working under severe financial constraints, and should be lauded (as he is by supporters of other clubs) for getting us into the top 4 for a quater of the season, rather than lambasted for not having spent a fortune we haven’t got, taking risks on players that may not have fitted in for the rest of the season.
Alan Instone WOULD have had something to moan about then.
sheesh
Gardener was brought in on the chance that Jags would not be up to filling Joey’s boots during AfCoN. Phil did have a rocky start to the season, and Gardener wouldn’t have needed to be instantly fit, just ready for filling the gap.
Tommy was another opportunity to bring in quality for not much, ostensibly to take the load off Mikky’s shoulders.. when it became apparent that his legs had gone, Manny was brought back in.
I think a lot of people thought under 2Mill for VdM was worth a gamble (if only we knew then.... )
The point is, yep, some of the money was wasted, but compared to some, Moyes’ mistakes are getting quite cheap, while his hits are proving quite valuable (how much of a risk was Lescott at 5M having missed an entire season with knee trouble?... win some, lose some).
As for you Michael, god bless you, I’d love to live in your world, where fivers sprout from every bush. However, it’s clearly apparent that DM is working under severe financial constraints, and should be lauded (as he is by supporters of other clubs) for getting us into the top 4 for a quater of the season, rather than lambasted for not having spent a fortune we haven’t got, taking risks on players that may not have fitted in for the rest of the season.
Alan Instone WOULD have had something to moan about then.
sheesh
George Farrar
15 Posted 14/05/2008 at 19:50:42
15 Posted 14/05/2008 at 19:50:42
Don?t think Gravesen and Gardner would have broke the bank but they were fuck all use. VdM played only a handful of games in the season before we signed him and I do recall posts from Holland saying he was a very bad lot. Baines missed weeks at the end of last season and whoever did his medical wants shooting. The point is that when you have a tiny squad you can?t afford to sign players with dodgy records. Their unavailability probably cost us fourth place.
Jay Harris
16 Posted 14/05/2008 at 23:29:00
16 Posted 14/05/2008 at 23:29:00
Michael some support at last.
I actually see the point you are making and I totally agree except for the culprit.
I felt at the time we were creaking, we knew Pienaar, Yobo and Yak were going to Afcon (could have been for longer actually) and we knew Osman was carrying a bad injury so IMO it was essential to either keep Fady or get an immediate replacement (or two).
I actually see the point you are making and I totally agree except for the culprit.
I felt at the time we were creaking, we knew Pienaar, Yobo and Yak were going to Afcon (could have been for longer actually) and we knew Osman was carrying a bad injury so IMO it was essential to either keep Fady or get an immediate replacement (or two).
For those with short memories we apparently had the £12 million for Fernandes last August so theoretically we then had £18 million. I am fairly confident that would have got us Arshavin at the time as well as another MF squad player.
Its BS to say there are NOT good players available in January but there are less of them and prices may have been higher but 4th place was there for the taking and we only took 9 points from the last 9 games including some real soft ones. But I actually believe that Moyes was not allowed to spend and that is one of the reasons he put contract talks off.
Brian Baker
17 Posted 15/05/2008 at 10:55:38
17 Posted 15/05/2008 at 10:55:38
Michael. Having key players, like Cahill and Ossie missing didn?t help either.
As soon as Ossie returned against Villa, we started playing better and creating more.
As soon as Ossie returned against Villa, we started playing better and creating more.
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The season tailed off not so much because of injury or tiredness, which were likely already factors negated by the rush of winning, but because as a team they failed to cope with the massive psychological blow of losing in Europe.