To answer you question, Andy, yes, staff and players do read these pages ? and other EFC sites, I'm sure ? though I couldn't tell you how many or how often, just that we know of certain individuals who have visited ToffeeWeb at one time or another.

You raise an interesting and timely issue given that we have just been denounced on a Times blog as "depressing dirge". [Personally, I think that Ed Bottomley, the author of that post and formerly a regular contributor to this site, and others who believe that TW has become something of a "running joke" among supporters are focusing on a minority, albeit a vocal one, of voices and ignoring the vast cross-section of opinion that we provide.]

I suppose that above all, fan sites such as these are just that ? the domain of supporters where they can dissect all things Everton to their hearts' content. For that reason, I'm not sure it behooves us to censor our feelings as fans lest they affect the players. Given the 24/7 forum that websites provide, it's only natural that the merits and de-merits of club personnel, from Board to playing staff, will constantly be analysed by people of all persuasions and opinions.

So, I don't think if I were a player that I'd want to read the fan sites unless I was on the top of my form and enjoying hero status. Anything less and your confidence could take a serious battering! Still, the £30,000 a week salary should take the sting out a little...

I doubt if the CEO or the chairman read these pages, I would sicerely hope their families don't. You raise a good point though Andy and perhaps it?ll serve as a reminder to all of us,

Ed Bottomley complains about people complaining, moans about people moaning, expects more from people who expect too much, he out-Morriseys the lot of us. Maybe somebody should point out to him that unrealistic expectations are not confined to the ranks of the GP faithful, ALL fans want more. Just ask the people across the park

These are virtual punchbags these forums. A place where you can have your say and vent some frustration.

It?s a shame that the piece in The Times picked up on a minority who rail against individual players and occassionally the manager, yet fail to point out the discord amongst all supporters brought about by the ill-concieved ?vote?. Each man and his dog knew that would be divisive and yet the club proceeded.

I?ve said before and will again, had the Board had the courage of their convictions and just said "We?re moving", there would be a smaller fraction of dissenting voices. Blue Bill wanted his minute of fame and legend as true Blue Bill and it backfired.
Why no wailing about that in The Times?

I agree with Andy Crooks.

Now I’ve just read Ed Bottomley’s piece and I agree with him too.

The abuse and negativity on here to the players, chairman and manager is horrific. Get real!

As Moyes said recently to some of the criticism, "maybe some of these supporters need educating"

Enough said.

I have just read the article in The Times and can understand what the man is getting at (we should all be singing from the same song sheet) but isn?t the whole point of this and other sites to let us the fans put our opinions across if we think players could play better or Moyes is wrong in his tactics? Why are we not allowed to say? If I am not doing my job properly, my manager certainly tells me!!!

I think the people who post on this site do so because they care about our great club, even if I don?t always agree with what they say. Its the first site I always come to as it has excellent articles and is very informative and well run. Keep up the good work and don?t you listen to that nasty man at The Times!!!

And remember, if you?ve got something to say about the mighty Toffees? you say it!!!

I am honestly surprised by how many people read my blog entry in The Times Fanzone section - if I had looked at it more sensibly I would probably have left ToffeeWeb?s name out of it. The truth is that for me, Toffeeweb is the first port of call whenever I am online - you lot are the best for rumours, and news - better than the Official Site in fact.
However, ToffeeWeb also seems to be the chosen forum for the moaners too - if Everton lose I try toavoid this site like the plague, Everton?s recent defeat to Arsenal is a case in point.
I apologise for throwing ToffeeWeb?s name around, in retrospect that was a little cheap, but I do stand by my opions ? the critics of Moyes will be the death of him. Many teams (including Everton) are praised for wisely standing by their managers; giving them the security to do their jobs. Now let's say we have a poor season next year, and finish 10th, those people moaning about our 1-0 defeat at the Emirates, could be the death of Moyes.
COYB!

TW is an excellent e-newspaper. I visit the OS (Andy - I think that means Official Site, but nobody ever tells you) to see if there is any announcement or even a hint worth picking up, which usually takes a few seconds. This is where I come to for the ideas which get knocked around ? and it is knockabout at times, which is good. If I had anything at all to do with the management of the club, I would do the same. Its not a parallel case, but Winston Churchill once said that he only read two newspapers, The Times and The Daily Worker. Balance is everything.

Terry B - a physics problem for you. A player hits the ball firmly at goal. It skids off the wet turf and flies past the keeper into the net. The commentator says the ball ?gathered pace? off the pich. Can this be true?

I feel that Lyndon's money argument can be easily countered by saying, since I believe that practically all people that post or read this site eat regularly and have shelter unlike a large proportion of the planet so how can we moan about anything? Going back to football, a fan of Wrexham or even Reading could argue we?re all moaning about nothing.

My worry is that what happens if one fan?s comments are detrimental to the club?s success whether that be in the ground or on a webpage.

It is human nature to find out what people think about you. And just because you?re famous or successful you?re supposed to be immune to criticism, like a wall of money helps. The post that sticks out was a particularly nasty one about Anichebe that although there was condemnation from the editors it was still posted. This is an independent site that allows comment that isn?t seen in other sites that have their own agenda. But isn?t it also a site that is for fans that support our beloved club. What did posting that comment do to serve the cause of supporting Everton?

Sometimes getting the team to play well and together is our job as fans, as well as the managers, or have we already forgotten our role at the Fiorentina game? I not talking about hymn sheets but don?t we all have a responsibility to think before we type? And don?t the editors have a responsibility to think about what they publish? You didn?t publish something that I wrote when I was pissed and talking rubbish (thanks for that I was really relived the next day.) So why can?t this editorial choice be applied to some of the more vitriolic comments as well?

I don’t think Moyes should be exempt from any criticism like people like Ed Bottomley seem to think he should be. The reaction to Moyes after the Newcastle game will have more than reassured him that the majority of Everton fans are behind him. There will be no ’death of Moyes’, after all where would he go? His stock is only high amongst clubs that need rebuilding. No club higher than Everton would take a chance on him as he has never won anything.

It is still fact though that Moyes sends his teams out not to concede and not to lose and if we score or win then this is a bonus. It honestly wouldn’t surprise me if we drew all 38 games nil-nil with Moyes. It surprises me how happy so many Everton fans are watching us play. The question that splits most Evertonians is do we play this way because our players aren’t good enough or is this Moyes’ philosophy regardless of who his playing staff are? I believe the latter option is the case and if Kenwright could find £40million, I would love to see an attack minded manager spend it rather than Moyes. But to suggest that it is wrong to represent this view in case it offends Moyes or other playing staff is a ridiculous dictatorial suggestion and I am incredibly grateful that a site like Toffeeweb allows this discussion to take place.

Ed, Thanks for comming back, I appreciate your view, one thing is certain about being an Evertonian is that we are all passionate about our club, I know plenty of supporters from other clubs but I know of no other group which such love for their club as ourselves, I’m certain that at times after we post our views some of us reflect and might even think that view was OTT then again we might not. I can’t see too many people at Everton being too worried about what is said on the site TBH, Do you honestly think because of what we say here anything is taken on board by the club? I doubt it very much, we ventilate our feelings and emotions here, whcih is a very safe place to do it. We only express our opinions here. It’s only football, only a part of our lives, I see life as a holiday myself, I’m here to enjoy it!!! so let’s all enjoy it and hope for clear Blue skies for the months again, it’ll be a long season, let’s stay friendly with each other, were Evertonian’s, were not like the others, stay cool and Blue.

Tony McNulty: just of out interest, can you recall when Moyes issued that "educating" quote? In what context? Is it verbatim?

If you’ve got a link or a lead I’d be intrigued to read the whole sense of what he was saying.

??a fan of Wrexham or even Reading could argue we?re all moaning about nothing.??

Yup it?s been a horrible season for me as a Wrexham fan, that?s why I?ve been so positive about Everton recently, you don?t know what you?ve got til it?s gone so enjoy it and get over the fact that we?re one place down from where we should be ? be glad you?re not going semi-professional.

Greg Murphy;

From the Independent May 9th where there is also reference to carping on websites.

I think there has to be a subtle difference between constructive criticism and ABUSE, which is what I was getting at earlier. HTH

To say that £30,000 a week makes everything alright is a bit of a lightweight comment ? money never made anyone truly happy, we all know that (unless we have frontal lobe damage).

There's always an inclination to focus on the negative when debating anything ? you don?t see the House of Commons debating all the positive things any government does, nor do you see a Question Time panel talking at great length about how wonderful this country or the world is!

As fans we have the right to opinion, that's what makes football the people's game the world over ? part of that boils down to it also being the game most loved by the (and excuse this comment) lower end of society and those with less in the way of education and a world view ? in short, those with a narrow mind (ahem!).

Sport crosses all divides, whether they be class, colour, religion or whatever, and it's that melting pot that makes for such diverse opinions ? opinions that aren?t always respected. The Internet provides a great platform for people to hide and still vent their (often extreme) opinions.

James, maybe there is some validity to your nicely elitist point ? there is probable correlation between extreme viewpoints, lack of respect for the opinions of others, and lower levels of education. But I don?t think that?s the whole story.

For some, there is a serious reluctance to accept that certain things can be debated ? mainly because, it seems, they have locked in their view and cannot conceive of there being another view, never mind any validity to that opposing view. It?s at that point which people become abusive to the opposing view, and the person holding it. Some even go further, and require that those opposing viewpoints or feelings be changed to conform.

That aspect of these forums is unfortunate because it changes the mode from one of a discussion to that of mind-control, and a quasi-religious impostion of straight-jacked dogmas that I reject.

It really does come down to that well-worn quote from Voltaire: "While I strongly disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it".... and (as far as we are concerned), that you do it in a respectful, non-abusive manner.

ps: Matt Lavery: ? could you please provide a valid e.maill address. Thanks.

You?re always going to get fans whine about the players, manager, owner etc. regardless of team/sport. I?ve read on some of the "all team" sites posts from Arsenal fans who want Wenger fired because he lost in the CL and didn?t add players in the transfer window... no kidding.

Being an Evertonian is not being like a member of a cult in which we swear loyalty to the team; we are free to criticize.

Having said that, I have to agree with Ed Bottomly in that a curmudgeonly tone has crept into this site especially in some of the match reports. You?re always going to get venting and whining in mailbags /forums etc.

At the end of day the owners of this site decide what?s appropriate. The rest of us are guests on this site.

I?ve been coming to this site or its pre-cursor since the mid 90s. Didn?t some guy from Sweden host the site? It?s the best place for Everton news and I enjoy the "From My Seat" match reports. The mailbox (like all mailboxes) is enter at you own risk :-)

I thought Ed Bottomley?s article was spot on. Some TW contributors do appear to have taken a tailspin back to 1986 and think that we?re still a ?Bank of England? club, ready to break transfer records and challenge on all fronts. Respect to TW for publishing the link to the piece though.

One final thought. I?d be horrified if any players or heaven forbid, DM, BK or KW ever came on the site. I?d hate them to think that the Tony Marsh?s of this world reflected the view of most Evertonians.

Just a few thoughts on what has been said.

Terry, yeah, I get told off by my manager (quite often actually)... fortunately it?s not on a website for the world to see.

Ed Bottomley, a good reasoned response.

Finally, Lyndon, taking on board your comment that someone at the club might actually read this:

Andy van der Meyde,
you?ve had more stick on this site than anyone. Every Evertonian would love you to prove us wrong. We know you?ve had your personal problems, we sympathise. You?re a world class player. Now, save your career!!!!

Tony McNulty: Cheers for that, much appreciated, especially the easy-click link.

Had missed that interview. Very interesting on several levels.

Nice to see some more reasoned, balanced views on this subject from the likes of Lyndon and Ed than many of us have seen of late.

The tone of many of the contributions in the final run-in of the season have often been very extreme and this then seems to spark an opposite reaction. Whilst it’s good to see Michael holds by Voltaire’s view of free speech, it has often been his sharp responses to mail posts in his editorial replies and his support of those whose posts are negative in the extreme that had fuelled much of the fire of late and prompted Ed’s reasoned plea for more consideration and less bluster.

Toffeeweb must not be restricted in what is said, but I think a bit more emphasis on constructive criticism and consideration of alternative options is needed from all posters, including the editorial team.

Everyone of us needs to be aware that our postings are in the public domain and are read by the club (and everyone else for that matter). So when you want to state that Player X is crap, managerial decisions are shite and our season has been dreadful - let’s choose our language with a bit more care, and let’s put some reasoned arguments to our view and not take it as a personal affront to us if others hold the opposing view.

I think the editorial team have enough nous to tell when posts on ’both sides’ are robust and reasoned and where they are inflammatory and devisive and control these appropriately. I think you just need to consider a wider view of what is defined as abuse.

It’s not as classy as the Voltaire quote, but in the words of Mrs Merton - ’Let’s have a heated debate’ - but keep it a debate and not mud-slinging vitriol.

Andy,

I would encourage you to use www.bluekipper.com. As well as providing a great website, these guys are great evertonians who travel the world following their team. They do a hugely creditable amount of charity work too. If you ever get the chance you should go on some of the do’s they organise. The most recent was was about the sixth event i have been to - they are superb.
Also icliverpool provides some great reports and is the home of Evertons best writtings - David Prentice - another true passionate EFC gent.

All the best - Joe.

Lyndon,
Being a season ticket holder and pre and post game alcho, I too have heard the ToffeeWeb jokes "more chance of Toffeeweb coming to Goodison" "bout as much fun as Kenrick's goal difference" etc etc. In an effort to help address this I recent wrote suggesting you should present yourselves a little better i.e tell people who you are etc. It did not get posted because the editor blocked it. I could not decide if the Irony exceeded the humour. This is a genuine Evertonian trying to help guys!!!!

Regards,

Bad reputations are hard to get rid of Toffeeweb, what started as a joke between Evertonian?s in the pub and at the match is now becoming boring. It?s all because the Editors of the site have not been impartial with there comments, therefore loosing the respect of others who view the site. I did value Toffeeweb at one time but now with its negativity even with its Editors I no longer view the site as much. There should be some quality and standard to opinions on the site but all there seems to be is verbal abuse between supporters and with the Editors letting this continue without punishment only make the site decline in popularity. I hope for the sake of supporters like myself this doesn?t continue as Toffeeweb will then disappear.

As a website developer of many a website this becomes a common downfall with these types of websites, without quaility control of the users who use the site and its abusive posts this decline will only continue.

You have been WARNED!

When you are reading comments that are not in line with your own it is sometimes hard to digest how someone can think that. A lot of people have responded to this post by stating how negative TW is. As probably one of the more ?negative? posters on this site, I am amazed at how positive most of the reponses are to David Moyes?s brand of football. It frustrates me so much that so many people are happy to watch the way Everton play.

This site offers a wide range of opinions, the problem is it?s the opinions you all disagree with that stick in your throat ? they?re the ones you remember and therefore if you?re a ?positive? poster you feel the site is negative; if you're a ?negative? poster you feel the site is too positive. I read most Everton websites and a lot of others offer light relief but I feel this site deals with the nitty gritty, it?s where most actual discussion of the football we play and the way the club is run takes place. I have been hounded from other websites for posting messages that offer a different view point to the ?positive? posters. On this site everyone is fairly represented and to suggest the tone of this site is negative is not representative of this site and to be honest is an unbalanced view.

Shaun Kinnair,
Brilliant. I detect a true EFC fan who attends games and is really really bored of listening to non attendees who think they know better.

Good speech my friend. Great speech.