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The Mail Bag

Goodison re-development

Comments (46)

I read this morning that Mr Bradley would back the redevelopment of Goodison Park, but that Everton have to "come to the table". Assuming, in an ideal world that we did "come to the table" and we did thrash out a deal to redevelop Goodison into a modern 55,000-seater stadium, can you imagine the amount of work that would have to be done? Can you also imagine how much atmosphere would be lost by tearing down the two main stands?

Can we afford to have up to two full seasons with a half a stadium in place, no atmosphere, no intimidating crowd, just a building site that teams mark down as a chance at sneaking three points? It concerns me. Am I alone?
Peter Laverty, London     Posted 29/05/2008 at 14:01:18

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Tony Ateman
1   Posted 29/05/2008 at 14:26:48

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No Peter, you are not alone, I agree with you, but I feel that most of the responses to your posting will disagree with us. When they do disagree with you remember that there are many who will not post an opinion and of those a significant number of them could agree with you. (Put your tin hat on)
Nick Entwistle
2   Posted 29/05/2008 at 14:33:43

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Doesn?t capacity go no lower than 33,000 for a redevelopment? That?s enough for atmosphere surely?
Mark Hill
3   Posted 29/05/2008 at 14:37:12

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Would it not make sense to ground share with another club..?
Not them over there, no.....

I know i will get shot down in flames for this...but hey ho.....would it not quicken the process though?
Bill Green
4   Posted 29/05/2008 at 14:34:22

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Ground re-development while still playing in the stadium is not ideal. But I can think of a few clubs who have put up with it er...........Chelsea.... er Manchester United off the top of my head of course, although these are examples of lower level clubs I think Everton may just be able to cope!
John Hughes
5   Posted 29/05/2008 at 14:36:20

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Did you go to the Wimbledon game in 94 with no park end? If you didn’t you missed one of the most frightening atmospheres ever seen at goodison.
Plus I think it was Tom Hughes who has posted numerous times on here who gives a detailed overview on how the stadium can be redeveloped without reducing capacity below 30k. You don’t have to lose 2 stands at once. Hopefully he’ll post a reply to explain.
Peter Laverty
6   Posted 29/05/2008 at 14:40:01

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Ground share...?? If not them over there then whom?? Chester?? Tranmere???
John Lloyd
7   Posted 29/05/2008 at 14:43:59

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As his namesake John as posted above me, Mr Tom Hughes (for one) has posted a number of times detailing how this could be done without the massive loss of atmosphere/revenue, but I fear that would constitute long term planning which is not something that interests our CEO. The bluffing, idiotic, bellend that he is.

And with wormtongue in his ear Bill the buffoon is gonna do any thing that fatboy suggests
Paul Henshaw
8   Posted 29/05/2008 at 14:47:49

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Two seasons without two stands...wow....imagine...
Thats what i like to see,Evertonians thinking long term......
Tim Keen
9   Posted 29/05/2008 at 15:05:22

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If the land behind the Bullens was available first then we could build an entire new Bullens stand behind the existing structure before knocking it down.

Shift the pitch towards it during the close season and we’d have a triple tier stand increasing our capacity and containing all the executive boxes we lack at the moment.

Build a double tier Park End stand next over 2 years (bottom tier year one, top tier year 2) linking up with the Bullens and repeat for Gwladys when the money starts to roll in. Capacity could be around the 55k mark no problem with it never dropping below current levels.

Now where is my £400k consultancy fee?
patty
10   Posted 29/05/2008 at 15:31:07

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What a great idea Tim, how about suggesting it to Bill Kenwright - after all he said that it would pain him to leave Goodison but had no choice but to go to Kirkby - call his bluff!!
Ed Fitzgerald
11   Posted 29/05/2008 at 15:31:09

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Tim

If you can fuck up the marketing and the clubs PR you can have your consultancy fee, oh sorry fat arse has already got that .

When we move to the vibrant city centre that is Kirkby to a world class stadium that will have an atmosphere that will rank with Cologne. Everything will be fine!
Plus don’t forget that the transport system will be state of the art and it will all cost a minimal amount. Only 60 Million out check your Maths!! Sounds like the words of madman? no KW on the 17th of July 2007 on the Everton website. For those needing evidence check out the timeline on the stadium debate on this site.

The only thing he gets right is when he says planning process might screw the whole deal up. I do hope it is not libel to call him fat arse or quote his own words.
Andy Whittingham
12   Posted 29/05/2008 at 15:56:32

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If we were to have empty stands when redeveloping GP, why not sell the space to the highest bidder/s.

Alternatively, for a fee - fans who don’t get to go to home games - those now abroad etc - could have a photo of their face attached on boards covering the empty areas!
jim Hourigan
13   Posted 29/05/2008 at 15:41:00

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Same old, same old comments. Somehow everyones an expert, were all better CEO’s than Bully, we’re all better designers and planners - how many of you are CEO’s? How many have worked on major building projects as complicated as this? How many of you run multi million pound businesses? Just look at the recent financial information about clubs and see the reality about the scale of Premiership clubs. Sitting in the Park End or wherever makes us experts on this does it? At what point do we acknowledge that some people know more than we do? When will people accept that not all information is given to everyone? Do all of us tell the people we know everything we’re planning? No - the reality is that this is business, you get to know what people want you to know, just because someone chooses not to tell you everything does not mean that they are automatically lying or deceiving you - they are acting as all businessmen do - selecting the information you need to know.

The naivety of some who think that they are entitled to know everything because they are supporters often astounds me. I’m sorry, however unpalatable this is we are not entitled to know everything. My season ticket is not an automatic guarantee that I have to be told everything about how the club runs, neither is my 40+ plus years of watching and that of my father going back to the 20’s. Neither am I stupid enough to believe everything that is said to me by either Wyness, Kenwright or Tom Hughes.

I genuinely believe that GP cannot be redeveloped and I have some limited understanding and experience of multi million pound building projects. Those that often quote other grounds clearly have rarely visited them - OT is not landlocked by narrow terrace streets, Villa Park had and still has substantial green space on at least 2 sides plus significant space behind both goals. White Hart Lane has land on 3 sides that is non dwelling (by the way they are looking to move as well). The RS are (disgustedly) moving to green space which will not be surrounded by narrow streets. Now forgive me where else do people want to compare us with? Chelsea might be muted but that has a railway line on 2 sides and had no housing between the lines and the old ground. It does have terraced housing on the curve but not quite like the terraced streets of GP and much further away from the ground than ours.

Find me a ground in the Premiership that has terraced streets 15yds away from it that has been successfully redeveloped and I will shut up. Equally find me a Premiership club that has informed or informs its supporters of its plans and then holds a democratic vote and I will shut up. Finally find me an investor willing to put substantial sums into our club and he can make any decision he likes because until such time as the supporters own the club it belongs to the directors and shareholders however unpalatable that may be.
Adam Cunliffe
14   Posted 29/05/2008 at 16:15:10

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Why don’t we wait for Liverpool to build there Super Dome and then lets play a couple of seasons in our original home.They cant really object because if it wasn’t for us leaving there in the 1st place, they wouldn’t be her at all.

We’d make the Kop the away en and use the Anny Road as our new Gwladys Street albeit for two years only(THANK GOD)
Dave Whitwell
15   Posted 29/05/2008 at 16:25:55

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Just think of the revenue we could get from the advertising on the site hording’s!!!!! He He
John Lloyd
16   Posted 29/05/2008 at 16:28:15

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Jim Hourigan, you’ve just slated people for quasi-experts and rip into people for daring to challenge what has been put in front of them or have ideas, only to go on & do the same thing yourself???

Bit hypocritical isnt it, or was it just a case of the ideas above not suiting to your way of things???

Believe me mate, there are passionate people who on all sides of this ground move who just want whats best for the club, there are also experts plans available for the redevelopment so dont start all that nonsense by rubbishing peoples ideas cos they dont fit in with your own.....
Derek Turnbull
17   Posted 29/05/2008 at 16:45:27

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You do know that the Kirkby stadium has not been designed for atmosphere don’t you?


Executive boxes at the back of the new Lower Gwladys Street??? Unbelievable. It will inhibit the standing and therefore the singing.
Albert Dock
18   Posted 29/05/2008 at 16:43:47

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I’ve been looking, yet again, at Google Earth’s view of Goodison and its surrounds (sad I know but it keeps me off them other sites) and I can’t help but notice how much space there is behind the Bullens Rd stand.

To make a very minor adjustment to Walton Lane would give the total area now covered by Goodison, thus doubling what is now available.

There is even enough space to turn the pitch through ninety degrees if that were required.

As it has recently transpired that LCC own some of this land why can a new stadium not be built on this area?
jim Hourigan
19   Posted 29/05/2008 at 17:00:34

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John Lloyd no one disputes your loyalty or indeed mine or that of all the other people who contribute to the debate. However my point still stands - show me a Premiership ground that has been redeveloped from the same base as we have. Tom Hughes and I dispute what can be done at GP, so I am quite willing to sit back and shut up if you can show me where its been done and at what cost.
Chris Dottie
20   Posted 29/05/2008 at 17:10:40

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I personally think the idea of sharing Anfield for a season is a brilliant one. No-one loves the idea of sitting in red seats, but we do it once a year anyway, and if it means that we get to keep our home where it belongs for the next hundred years, that’s got to be worth it.

Their stadium is always available on the days we need it anyway so why not ?

Sadly, the answer is that without Tesco’s bucks Bill couldn’t afford to build 2 new stands at Goodison.

Uncle Bill in Kirkby or Uncle Boris in Anfield for a year then in Goddison? No easy answers.
Ed Fitzgerald
21   Posted 29/05/2008 at 17:25:13

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Jim
I was only quoting KW?s own words and I voted no so how does this make me naïve?
The move to Kirkby is in trouble because it is not popular and is in danger of being called in by the government. (please revisit his original statement and his more recent ones regarding the planning processes, if you choose to ignore my words). I never claimed to be an expert but I am a customer and I think I have a right to ask questions about both the process and the marketing that preceded the vote. Yes football clubs are a business but they are also a form of social enterprise and Everton more than most rely upon local patronage so they are not exempt from scrutiny from their supporters, or the communities they represent.
You believe that GP can?t be redeveloped, others including Trevor Skempton (Who worked on Newcastle?s ground) believe it can. It?s all about opinion Jim, people who sincerely believe that alternatives exist will continue to offer arguments, lobby politicians to try to influence what they believe is the wrong decision.
I find it mildly amusing that someone who can offer a ?creative? alternative to the current regulations regarding the Champions League qualification (Skyopoly post) gets so upset when other EFC supporters offer alternatives to Destination Kirkby? Or do you consider yourself more suitably qualified than UEFA officials to suggest a different way of doing things. I suspect you probably don?t, you just think that the ?layman? can sometimes perceive there are alternative strategies, novel solutions to apparently intractable problems.
Neil Madden
22   Posted 29/05/2008 at 17:23:00

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Let’s suppose the decision to stay at Goodison was made after it was confirmed that the footprint could be extended to take in the streets at the back of the Bullens Road (leaving the argument whether that could happen or indeed should happen aside for now) you could build a huge main stand and 2 halves of goals stands before you even needed to take a ball and chain to any of Goodison or move the pitch. I would imagine that the new build alone would comfortably hold 35,000. Problem solved.
Bradley Nolan
23   Posted 29/05/2008 at 16:55:55

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Having witnessed the redevelopment of Croke Park (Dublin), which took a number of years, stand by stand, I can not see a similar project working at GP. Croke Park was used (in an earlier article by KEIOC) as an example of how/ why to redevelop Goodison. What the article failed to mention was the additional space around Croke P, the width of the surrounding streets, the vast Government funding of the stadium rebuild (Gaelic Football is the national sport of Ireland), the historic significance of Croke park for an entire country created the political will, the nature of the Gaelic football season is such that there are very significant periods of the year where the stadium is not needed and other stadiums are available (owned by the Gaelic Athletic Association) as substitutes. It would probably take 4 years for a full redelopment of Goodison, the costs would escallate year on year (as it did with Croke Park/ Wembley) as logistically it would be a nightmare to construct. Locals would have to be paid off, where would all the trucks/ materials go? on the pitch? and when you’re finished you might just realise that you’re still land-locked, with no parking, poor crowd dispersal and no potential to develope further. There is also the very real possibility that the project might never get finished due to escallating costs. There is no government grant to bail us out. I would be very worried about the club taking such a project on board. It would be crazy. I think a joint stadium was always the best option, it is the most efficient use of all resources. As for the name? it would be commercially named. Problem is that LFC won’t want it because it would raise our profile and they don’t need the competition. It is all about the political will, that’s what needs to be created.
Greg Murphy
24   Posted 29/05/2008 at 17:38:32

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I clearly remember Peter Beardsley being played through at Old Trafford for a one-on-one with that Danish keeper (who everyone now says was the best in the world when we all know that the holder of that title was actually down the other end) a few minutes before half-time in the 2nd league game of the 92-93 league season.

The little gem duly slotted it past said Dane into a Stretford End that had been demolished and was gradually being rebuilt. Despite the fact that Everton then went on to clinch a famous 3-0 victory and despite the fact that Old Trafford was undergoing extensive renovation, Manchester United somehow overcame such adversity and went on to clinch their first title in 26 years that season.


John Lloyd
25   Posted 29/05/2008 at 17:48:12

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Jim I couldnt if I tried, but I was just a bit irked that you were calling everyone ’so callled experts’ and asking what qualifies us to comment, you even start by saying..

"Same old, same old comments. Somehow everyones an expert"

Then proceed to give YOUR expert view, like yours is more valid than anyone elses??? I happen to agree with Tom Hughes initial plan, you dont. Fair enough but dont start slating peoples opinions & ideas cos they dont fit with your own, not having that mate
Jay Harris
26   Posted 29/05/2008 at 17:50:52

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Jim Hourigan
you did promise to shut up.

St James Park has a smaller footprint than GP and is totally landlocked.

Strange that only holds 54000 atmospheric Geordies.

As you rightly say you (and I for that matter)are no experts.

FYI neither are KW or BK.

I prefer to rely on people such as Trevor Skempton a reputable architect who has worked on a number of large stadium projects and Tom Hughes a building engineer.

They both state that GP can be redeveloped to give a WORLD CLASS stadium holding 55000.

The big advantage of that is it can be done as we can afford it and does not need to be done all in one go with the consequent high level of borrowing.

Can we also bury the myth that Tesco are doing us a huge favour and making a financial contribution.

Tesco have already stated "They will not contribute financially" to the stadium cost.

Considering it will cost EFC millions (Everton’s own expert)to decontaminate the land in Kirkby I cant believe supporters still dont understand what sort of a stadium they’re getting for 78 million plus.
Albert Dock
27   Posted 29/05/2008 at 18:32:02

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"Atmospheric Geordies"?

If this is a reference to their personal hygiene regime I’ll have you know that the majority of them spend their entire lives naked from the waist up.
Colin Wordsworth
28   Posted 29/05/2008 at 19:07:18

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Jay

I would love Goodison to become a world class stadium.......but what will be the cost??

150-200 mill plus........at least i think......

So the reason we have to move is financial!

we can’t afford to redevelop Goodison properly!

So, Tesco build a great new stadium in Kirkby at a minimal cost to EFC........other than location.......which is everybodys real bugbear....it is and will be a fantastic deal fot the football club!

Jim is right....it shouldn’t be him shutting up!...

Do you really think that the current board have not investigated the redevelopment of the olde lady......it really is sad that fellow supporters have to spread malicious rumour and innuendo to try and win an argument that has already been lost!

ron leith
29   Posted 29/05/2008 at 19:36:35

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Everyone wants to stay at Goodison. I voted yes to move because what will happen when you start dealing with Liverpool City Council. They must be the worst Council in England, they have allowed LFC to build on an historic park, have refused permision for EFC to build on Bellfield and now will object to EFC’s stadium at Kirby. Why would any sane person want to deal with such a bunch of Liverpool FC supporters. Where is Paul McCartney playing at this year. Goodison Park or Anfield. KEOIC are delusional, Bradley is a joke and if we redeveloped Goodison it would be over LFC Councils dead body. They would not tolerate the increased noise to local residents, the increased traffic congestion or the design of the stands. They are full of hot air.
Paul Morgan
30   Posted 29/05/2008 at 19:44:56

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Read Domingo Don on whenskiesaregrey.com for passion and perspective on the issue of a possible ground share. It’s not just about the stadium, by the way, but about our unique relationship with LFC. We’re Merseysiders, at the end of the day.
Colin Wordsworth
31   Posted 29/05/2008 at 19:58:25

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Paul

Another good option.......but we can’t afford it!......unless we get sponsorship in the many millions!......we have to take a reality check.

.........with a possibility of losing our own identity.......even more so than the proposed move to our own stadium a few miles down the road!

It is the rs who don’t want us on board!......even after discussing purple seats at board level!...
Alan Clarke
32   Posted 29/05/2008 at 20:30:08

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I know the majority of people now don’t want a move to Kirkby but if this gets called in by the government and the project falls through, this will be another load of failed promises by the current board. At what point will the EFC board be held accountable for another fuck up? They’ll try and blame it on a load of other reasons but the buck must surely rest with them.

I think we should just sit tight until Kirkby falls through and Kenwright leaves.
Colin Wordsworth
33   Posted 29/05/2008 at 20:45:17

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Alan

If it were to fall through you could hardly blame the board!.....

.........I would tend to look at the spurrious propoganda put forward by the no camp and poor but opportunistic local politicians

ps I think the people who bother to type on this website are mainly no voters......but in the big world i fear you are still a minority....sorry!
Alan Clarke
34   Posted 29/05/2008 at 20:52:23

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Colin, how can the board remain blameless? Kings Dock and now Kirkby. I hold them completely accountable and so should you. As a ’yes’ voter yourself you should feel more let down than anybody!

Thanks for the tip on life in the "big world".
Colin Wordsworth
35   Posted 29/05/2008 at 20:57:01

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Alan

a pleasure!.......reality is a wonderful thing!

yes.................i do blame them for the kings dock.....a tragedy!...

......but not kirkby........they and we just want what is best for our club........this is why emotions are taking over!

I voted yes to move for the overall good of the club.......and with heavy heart, but we must progress with the hope of competing on more of a level playing field with the rs, we won’t by staying where we are.....unfortunately!

I will feel let down if we fail to move through poor politicians and a smear campaign.
Tony Williams
36   Posted 29/05/2008 at 21:54:43

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Alan I too hold them completely accountable for the King’s Dock debacle but even the most ardent board haters must see that a percentage of blame must lie elsewhere.

There is a city council that is allowing the Red Shite to build their stadium on Green land but refusing us permission to extend Goodison and they are also now putting a complaint in about a prospective stadium being built outside their city and urging other councils to to the same. Even with the ineptitude of our board the way it is I have to place some blame on LCC doorstep should Kirkby go tits up.
jim Hourigan
37   Posted 29/05/2008 at 22:58:44

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Jay just search google for a airial photo of St James Park and then tell me ts the same land locked terraced streets as GP.

Ed forgive me but is there one single reference to Kirkby in any recent article I have posted - don’t see and read what’s not there, paranoia can be a terrible thing. The quote I used was taken direct from the official site or can that not be trusted either? I don’t get upset by the comments because everyone is entitled to have and express an opinion, but I won’t be misled by half baked ideas and a debate that in all truth is unlikely to have any impact on the custodians of the club. If Kirkby fails it will be for political reasons and not because of a vocal minority, and minority it still is until a reputable company like Gallup caries out a poll not KEIOC or anyone else with their own agenda - for or against. If that happens then I will be neither sad nor glad but redeveloping GP will never work.
Jay Harris
38   Posted 29/05/2008 at 23:16:11

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Jim as somebody who has been to St James park and anybody else will tell you it is totally landlocked but to be fair to you it is the only example I could think of.

But the main point I was making was it is slightly smaller footprint than GP yet it has’nt stopped them building a 54000 seat stadium.
In fact there is only large stadium (over 50000) that’s in the premiership and that’s the emirates.
Eastlands only has 48000 and the rest are 34000 and less.
All the larger grounds are developed in situ.
Tom Hughes
39   Posted 29/05/2008 at 23:15:01

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Jim,
Only just spotted the thread, and therefore only glanced through people’s posts.
I see you mentioned Villa earlier. I’m sure you know that they bridged a road on the mainstand side and completely demolished a whole row of houses on the opposite side to build the Doug Ellis stand. Also St James’ is right up against a listed Georgian Terrace on one side, and the topography at the Gallowgate is problematic but they overcame it. ......will try to add more later bit busy at the mo.
Jay Harris
40   Posted 29/05/2008 at 23:28:02

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Colin
none of us really know the cost of developing GP until we look into it but I do know a couple of Stadium Architect/engineers who posted on here that we could turn Bullens road into a world class stand with corporate facilities and double tier the Park end for about 60/70 million and that would give us a capacity of 55000 or thereabouts. In the way they proposed it the capacity would not drop below 31000 and that for only one season.
When they tried to present it to BK his response was we’re in an exclusivity period.
Steve Ryan
41   Posted 29/05/2008 at 23:27:06

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Jim Hourigan, you criticise other blues for assuming they know more than the experts but then dismiss those experts in the field of stadia redevelopment yourself. And your qulifications are????????????Some hypocrite you are mate.
Colin Wordsworth
42   Posted 29/05/2008 at 23:42:46

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Jay

I would love us to redevelop the old lady and turn her back to the great stadium she once was!

But....I fear it will cost too much money to do it as it should be done!

......and in the meantime the rs build their carbuncle and we slip further behind their money making machine and probably the rest of the premiership in money making terms.

I have been reliably informed by someone within the club....and i hope this person is right! that the new stadium will be a much smaller cost to efc than 78 mill.

If this is the case it is a great deal leaving us more money for team building etc.

I have also been informed that the price of the steel was a fixed quote given a while ago!

So, on simple costing alone the move seems to make sense.......it is a heart and head thing!

I believe the decision will be made very soon.
Dick Fearon
43   Posted 29/05/2008 at 22:43:19

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I well remember the approbation and bad reputation suffered by Kirkby in its early days .
It was the butt of cynical jokes for far too long.

Slowly but surely that stigma was cast off and now it is on the cusp of a bright new beginning.
The question is, will the people of Kirkby stand idly by while their one and possibly only glimmer of optimism is wrecked.
The anti stadium group had enormouse publicity on websites, the Post and Echo, TV and radio talkback, letter drops, public demonstrations and protest rallies yet they failed to get a single candidate over the line. It was as clear a demonstration as can be got of what the silent majority wants.
This at a time when nationwide labour was losing seats right left and centre.
Should a Labour controlled houses of parliament kow tow to surrounding Lib/Dem/Tory councils by subverting the clearly demonstrated wishes of its own supporters in one of its few remaining strongholds it would be tantamount to political suicide.
Jay Harris
44   Posted 30/05/2008 at 00:03:38

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Sorry lads typo correction

Jim as somebody who has been to St James park and anybody else will tell you it is totally landlocked but to be fair to you it is the only example I could think of.

But the main point I was making was it is slightly smaller footprint than GP yet it has?nt stopped them building a 54000 seat stadium.
In fact there is only one NEW large stadium (over 50000) that?s in the premiership and that?s the emirates.
Eastlands only has 48000 and the rest are 34000 and less.
All the larger grounds are developed in situ.
Colin Wordsworth
45   Posted 30/05/2008 at 00:11:03

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Jay

I’m sure it can be done.......but we just ain’t got the money to do it!

......plus we will have to battle for planning permission etc with the wonderful council we have!

it’s a toss up whether the s###te will be able to afford theirs............with interest payments of at least 30 mill a year!

Kirkby gives us a huge opportunity to think big again and escape from under the shadow of the rs!.......

If the location was anywhere else in the vicinity this would be called a masterstroke by the board!

.....and you have to ask the question......why is this plonker Bradley suddenly bleating!.....is it because he realises he has made a huge mistake and the club are doing the right thing!....and he is trying to save face!.....
paul maghee
46   Posted 30/05/2008 at 02:28:18

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Just a small idea really as i have 0 knowledge on how multi-million pound projects work, but maybe we could form a small company made up purely of evertonian tradesmen that would volunteer to build one stand with no charge but materials. Yes, we would need several 100 workers including qualified electicians, joiners, plasterers ect but i think it could be possible. Im a qualified joiner and i know i would jump at such a chance. Even if people contributed just one day a week.

As a momento the club could even engrave the names of the volunteers into a plaque on the new stadium !

whos going to shoot me down then? haha

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