The Mail Bag
City v Everton
Comments (23)
I am getting more frustrated with the stadium debate (of course it needs to be sorted) but this seems to continue to paper over the cracks that we have a very small squad, no or little investment and a manager that won't sign a new contract because of this. What concerns me now is that Mark Hughes knows how to play attacking football and he has plenty to spend, and the bottom line is would Man City be seen as a club to join if they were still playing at Maine Rd with no money?....well that scenario is Everton FC.
Joe McMahon, Posted 09/06/2008 at 08:49:29
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Shaun Brennan
2 Posted 09/06/2008 at 14:41:49
2 Posted 09/06/2008 at 14:41:49
Well If Man City were still at Maine Road, yet had top money to sign players....then yes, players would still sign for them!
Also Kirkby does not compare to the new City stadium!
Also Kirkby does not compare to the new City stadium!
Jay Harris
3 Posted 09/06/2008 at 15:05:51
3 Posted 09/06/2008 at 15:05:51
Joe
there is no plan B.
Plan A has to be to redevelop Goodison.
City have done nothing yet despite a "Free" shiny new stadium and a major influx of funds.
If we consolidate Moyes position and get some quality additions to the squad we could still keep City in their place.
My major concern is Spurs who are extremely well run financially and look to be making quality signings and "losing" those that arent good enough (Robinson,Huddlestone etc.)
there is no plan B.
Plan A has to be to redevelop Goodison.
City have done nothing yet despite a "Free" shiny new stadium and a major influx of funds.
If we consolidate Moyes position and get some quality additions to the squad we could still keep City in their place.
My major concern is Spurs who are extremely well run financially and look to be making quality signings and "losing" those that arent good enough (Robinson,Huddlestone etc.)
Rob Hollis
4 Posted 09/06/2008 at 15:44:34
4 Posted 09/06/2008 at 15:44:34
Tom
If you don?t like Kirby then OK. But comments like Kirby is eight miles from the city centre really are a bit daft. Do all Everton fans live in the city centre, do they live in the ?city? or do most live on Merseyside with a number (like myself) now living away and travelling in? There are lots of good points to debate and eight miles is really not one of them.
I voted yes because our current Stadium has ?had it? and I don?t see places like Kirby and Huyton and Halewood as anything other than parts of the ?Greater Liverpool? that is known as Merseyside.
Re-developing Goodison would be best but how could we afford to do that whilst losing lots of gate revenue everyime one side was shut for a season due to a rebuild? This would also get people out of the habit of going to the game and lots would be hard to get back.
If you don?t like Kirby then OK. But comments like Kirby is eight miles from the city centre really are a bit daft. Do all Everton fans live in the city centre, do they live in the ?city? or do most live on Merseyside with a number (like myself) now living away and travelling in? There are lots of good points to debate and eight miles is really not one of them.
I voted yes because our current Stadium has ?had it? and I don?t see places like Kirby and Huyton and Halewood as anything other than parts of the ?Greater Liverpool? that is known as Merseyside.
Re-developing Goodison would be best but how could we afford to do that whilst losing lots of gate revenue everyime one side was shut for a season due to a rebuild? This would also get people out of the habit of going to the game and lots would be hard to get back.
Bob Fletcher
5 Posted 09/06/2008 at 15:51:32
5 Posted 09/06/2008 at 15:51:32
Tom, City got a stadium off Manchester Council that was built for the Commonwealth games and then donated to City. What did Everton get off Liverpool Council? Sweet fuck all!
Chad Schofield
6 Posted 09/06/2008 at 16:48:53
6 Posted 09/06/2008 at 16:48:53
Rob, just because you voted yes does not change Kirkby’s geographic location. If you’re comparing Man City and Everton’s grounds [proposed in our case] then it would be stupid not to mention that fact.
Have a read of the link on the front page which contains costings of redeveloping GP- albeit a few years ago. If DK fails then it will be annoying that the club has spent more money on going nowhere... but that seems preferable than going further down the line with this disasterous project.
Have a read of the link on the front page which contains costings of redeveloping GP- albeit a few years ago. If DK fails then it will be annoying that the club has spent more money on going nowhere... but that seems preferable than going further down the line with this disasterous project.
Colin Wordsworth
7 Posted 09/06/2008 at 19:31:01
7 Posted 09/06/2008 at 19:31:01
Chad
City share the stadium with the council and still had to pay 35 mill to fit it out!
And...have you been?......it is truly awful!
City share the stadium with the council and still had to pay 35 mill to fit it out!
And...have you been?......it is truly awful!
Dave Wilson
8 Posted 09/06/2008 at 19:28:56
8 Posted 09/06/2008 at 19:28:56
Joe city?s a pantomime Mate,
I wouldnt make any comparisons at all,
Even if the stadium fairy left a 60,000 seater under our pillow, we still wouldnt be able to pay £200 grand a week for a player, City can ? for now...
Trust me, its the wages and only the wages thats going to attract any top players there.
Let's face it, it?s only the size of the owners bank balance that attracted Hughes himself
I wouldnt make any comparisons at all,
Even if the stadium fairy left a 60,000 seater under our pillow, we still wouldnt be able to pay £200 grand a week for a player, City can ? for now...
Trust me, its the wages and only the wages thats going to attract any top players there.
Let's face it, it?s only the size of the owners bank balance that attracted Hughes himself
Dave Wilson
9 Posted 09/06/2008 at 19:44:07
9 Posted 09/06/2008 at 19:44:07
sorry
that should have read 200 grand a week
that should have read 200 grand a week
Tom Hughes
10 Posted 09/06/2008 at 19:28:02
10 Posted 09/06/2008 at 19:28:02
Bob,
" But comments like Kirby is eight miles from the city centre really are a bit daft."
I think you will find that it’s not daft, but simply a fact.
" Do all Everton fans live in the city centre, do they live in the ?city? or do most live on Merseyside with a number (like myself) now living away and travelling in ? There are lots of good points to debate and eight miles is really not one of them."
Everton have the highest local walk up support in the league. Easily the biggest proportion of match-going blues are Merseyside based including the Wirral. The focal point of all public transport systems is the city-centre with capacity reducing dramatically with distance to the extent that at Kirkby the absolute maximum public transport capacity is 3-5,000 per hr. For comparison, the city centre handles over 100,000 commuters every rush hr with capacity for double that with national and local train networks comprehensively covered. Walton’s capacity is over 20,000 per hr! (notice the reduction for just a 2 mile distance from town) Therefore, the distance from the city centre IS an important factor in single focal point cities! Even Tesco can’t afford to change that! Ask any stadium planner where the ideal location is for a stadium, and the vast majority would say edge of cntre to gain full use of mass public transport since cars simply cannot move big numbers efficiently.
"Re-developing Goodison would be best but how could we afford to do that whilst losing lots of gate revenue everyime one side was shut for a season due to a rebuild?"
It is possible to redevelop multi-tier stands without losing capacity as at Ipswich’s new end stand and various other projects worldwide things have moved on a lot since the 90’s even. Both the upper Bullens and Parkend stands are prime candidates for this treatment as I’ve explained on another thread.
Man City have benefitted greatly from their new location on top of town as well as the real bargain of the century!
" But comments like Kirby is eight miles from the city centre really are a bit daft."
I think you will find that it’s not daft, but simply a fact.
" Do all Everton fans live in the city centre, do they live in the ?city? or do most live on Merseyside with a number (like myself) now living away and travelling in ? There are lots of good points to debate and eight miles is really not one of them."
Everton have the highest local walk up support in the league. Easily the biggest proportion of match-going blues are Merseyside based including the Wirral. The focal point of all public transport systems is the city-centre with capacity reducing dramatically with distance to the extent that at Kirkby the absolute maximum public transport capacity is 3-5,000 per hr. For comparison, the city centre handles over 100,000 commuters every rush hr with capacity for double that with national and local train networks comprehensively covered. Walton’s capacity is over 20,000 per hr! (notice the reduction for just a 2 mile distance from town) Therefore, the distance from the city centre IS an important factor in single focal point cities! Even Tesco can’t afford to change that! Ask any stadium planner where the ideal location is for a stadium, and the vast majority would say edge of cntre to gain full use of mass public transport since cars simply cannot move big numbers efficiently.
"Re-developing Goodison would be best but how could we afford to do that whilst losing lots of gate revenue everyime one side was shut for a season due to a rebuild?"
It is possible to redevelop multi-tier stands without losing capacity as at Ipswich’s new end stand and various other projects worldwide things have moved on a lot since the 90’s even. Both the upper Bullens and Parkend stands are prime candidates for this treatment as I’ve explained on another thread.
Man City have benefitted greatly from their new location on top of town as well as the real bargain of the century!
Steve Ferns
11 Posted 09/06/2008 at 20:21:58
11 Posted 09/06/2008 at 20:21:58
The fact that Kirkby is 8 miles from Liverpool city centre is not a side issue for me, it?s the main issue. Before we can consider building a stadium, you have to identify a location. Kirkby should never be considered as a location. Not just because it is not inside the city boundaries, but because it is too far away. Speke might be inside the city boundaries but I?d be just as opposed to moving there. So please don?t trivilise an issue that is so important to many Blues by saying "Don?t be daft ? it?s only 8 miles".
Tom Hughes
12 Posted 09/06/2008 at 19:55:47
12 Posted 09/06/2008 at 19:55:47
Rob,
apologies for getting name wrong!
apologies for getting name wrong!
Jay Harris
13 Posted 09/06/2008 at 22:43:16
13 Posted 09/06/2008 at 22:43:16
For those who say GP cannot be developed economically check out the article on the home page I dug out from Ward McHugh a highly reputable stadium engineering company.
In June 2000 the costs of building GP into a world class 55000 seat stadium was 40 million now even if you double construction costs since 2000 which is more than construction cost inflation you still end up with a lower cost than Kirkby and the bonus is "you know who" doesnt get a bonus.
In June 2000 the costs of building GP into a world class 55000 seat stadium was 40 million now even if you double construction costs since 2000 which is more than construction cost inflation you still end up with a lower cost than Kirkby and the bonus is "you know who" doesnt get a bonus.
Rob Hollis
14 Posted 09/06/2008 at 23:24:36
14 Posted 09/06/2008 at 23:24:36
Tom, Thanks but I have been called far worse than that. If you are right about stands being re-developed without losing capacity then that would put a different light on things, but I (not being in the business) can’t imagine it.
I would be suprised if public transport did not rise to meet the demands of the ground, business tends to follow the money.
Steve, I find it is worth driving for five hours round trip for the game, so yes I do think eight miles is trivial.BUT you might have a good point if you look at transport costs and where they are going. In eighteen months or so I expect fuel will be so expensive that good bus and rail links will be essential because long drives might really be prohibitive.
Play the green card Steve, nobody is allowed to argue with that one these days.
I would be suprised if public transport did not rise to meet the demands of the ground, business tends to follow the money.
Steve, I find it is worth driving for five hours round trip for the game, so yes I do think eight miles is trivial.BUT you might have a good point if you look at transport costs and where they are going. In eighteen months or so I expect fuel will be so expensive that good bus and rail links will be essential because long drives might really be prohibitive.
Play the green card Steve, nobody is allowed to argue with that one these days.
Paul Sherlock
15 Posted 10/06/2008 at 00:03:50
15 Posted 10/06/2008 at 00:03:50
People who say yes to Kirkby have to realise the amount of evertonians who travel for more than an hour to games. Many of us, from the other side of the Mersey from South Wirral, Chester, North Wales, South Cheshire will have to spend more money, just to wait at train stations getting soaked. If Kirkby was to go ahead, transport time would increase dramatically, 8 miles feels more like 8 hours on Merseytravel!
KEIOC!
KEIOC!
Gerard Madden
16 Posted 10/06/2008 at 00:39:57
16 Posted 10/06/2008 at 00:39:57
Citeh’s ground is a mere 47,000 (Unextendable) ’bowl’, our ground will be bigger ’n better at an impressive 50,000 (Extendable to 60,000) and is a traditional 4-stand ground. There’s no comparison between the two grounds.
Clyde McPhat
17 Posted 10/06/2008 at 08:10:50
17 Posted 10/06/2008 at 08:10:50
All the fuss about "to move or not to move," our major concern should really be about signing new players. We keep losing out to all these other club whom I personally don?t think are "better" than Everton. Bargain players are ok but you can?t run away from the need to have depth, serious depth!
Joe McMahon
18 Posted 10/06/2008 at 08:50:14
18 Posted 10/06/2008 at 08:50:14
Clyde - Thanks. This is the point I was trying to make, we have to get the stadium issue sorted asap (be it in Kirby or staying at GP) and look at lack of size & strengh of the squad, or we could lose Moyes.
Gareth Humphreys
19 Posted 10/06/2008 at 09:28:45
19 Posted 10/06/2008 at 09:28:45
(1) City’s ground is in walking distance of the city centre
(2) Despite the ground not costing what it would from scratch it still took a rich foreigh bloke for city to start competing at the top table. A shiny new ground is not funding Ronaldinho or Jo.
(2) Despite the ground not costing what it would from scratch it still took a rich foreigh bloke for city to start competing at the top table. A shiny new ground is not funding Ronaldinho or Jo.
Chad Schofield
20 Posted 10/06/2008 at 10:37:44
20 Posted 10/06/2008 at 10:37:44
Colin, WTF are you talking about?
What possible point are you making?
However yes, I have been to citeh’s ground. Sure it’s not The Nou Camp, but it’s better than the Reebok or Riverside. It also, IMO, seems better than the proposed plans for Kirkby, so the fact that they had pay £35M when we being asked to stump up £78M (at the moment-even though you seem to have cast your eye into a crystal ball somewhere along the line stating it will be the maximum?!) for a supermarket warehouse really does not add anything to argument that we should head to Kirkby.
What possible point are you making?
However yes, I have been to citeh’s ground. Sure it’s not The Nou Camp, but it’s better than the Reebok or Riverside. It also, IMO, seems better than the proposed plans for Kirkby, so the fact that they had pay £35M when we being asked to stump up £78M (at the moment-even though you seem to have cast your eye into a crystal ball somewhere along the line stating it will be the maximum?!) for a supermarket warehouse really does not add anything to argument that we should head to Kirkby.
Tom Hughes
21 Posted 10/06/2008 at 11:01:13
21 Posted 10/06/2008 at 11:01:13
Gerard,
City’s ground is extendable, an extra tier or upper tier extension can be added to both end stands. Meanwhile, Kirkby was supposed to be 55,000 seats initially, the planners and the transport consultants cannot make this come close to working hence the reduction, and even then the park and ride scheme has failed. No-one in planning would seriously say that Kirkby is expandable now..... it’s already pushing the limits for the site. In fact they have stated that no event will be attended by more than 50,400!
City’s ground is extendable, an extra tier or upper tier extension can be added to both end stands. Meanwhile, Kirkby was supposed to be 55,000 seats initially, the planners and the transport consultants cannot make this come close to working hence the reduction, and even then the park and ride scheme has failed. No-one in planning would seriously say that Kirkby is expandable now..... it’s already pushing the limits for the site. In fact they have stated that no event will be attended by more than 50,400!
EJ Ruane
22 Posted 10/06/2008 at 12:50:58
22 Posted 10/06/2008 at 12:50:58
Gerard Madden (that genuine Evertonian who?s nothing to do with Tesco HONEST!) says..
"Citeh?s ground is a mere 47,000 (Unextendable) ?bowl?, our ground will be bigger ?n better at an impressive 50,000 (Extendable to 60,000) and is a traditional 4-stand ground. There?s no comparison between the two grounds"
What he fails to mention is that ?our? ground will also have armchairs instead of the usual plastic seats, the catering (which will be free!) will be provided by Gordon Ramsey and Heston Blumenthal and the team will eventually be made up of players cloned from the likes of Pelé and Eusabio.
There will of course be teething troubles regarding getting to and from games but this will be sorted out when all season ticket holders will be provided with a rocket pack (like that feller had at the opening ceremony of the LA Olympics....I think it was LA)
It?s gonna be great!
"Citeh?s ground is a mere 47,000 (Unextendable) ?bowl?, our ground will be bigger ?n better at an impressive 50,000 (Extendable to 60,000) and is a traditional 4-stand ground. There?s no comparison between the two grounds"
What he fails to mention is that ?our? ground will also have armchairs instead of the usual plastic seats, the catering (which will be free!) will be provided by Gordon Ramsey and Heston Blumenthal and the team will eventually be made up of players cloned from the likes of Pelé and Eusabio.
There will of course be teething troubles regarding getting to and from games but this will be sorted out when all season ticket holders will be provided with a rocket pack (like that feller had at the opening ceremony of the LA Olympics....I think it was LA)
It?s gonna be great!
Andy Callan
23 Posted 10/06/2008 at 13:25:36
23 Posted 10/06/2008 at 13:25:36
Plan A is to move people.
Get used to idea....!!!!!!!!!!!!
I reckon that unless we get lots of cash we are gunna go backwards again and Moyes will eventually fuck off to Celtic.
The sooner we get a better stadium the better; we will become more investable then.
The plans have been approved today thank fuck......
Get used to idea....!!!!!!!!!!!!
I reckon that unless we get lots of cash we are gunna go backwards again and Moyes will eventually fuck off to Celtic.
The sooner we get a better stadium the better; we will become more investable then.
The plans have been approved today thank fuck......
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1 Posted 09/06/2008 at 14:40:25