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Marketing? What Marketing!

Comments (44)

There was a message posted on here not so recently asking, following LFC?s club shop opening in Liverpool 1, why there is no presence of EFC in the city centre. Well, another cruise-liner has entered the River Mersey today (it?s right outside where I work and it?s bloody massive!), so there?s another influx of visitors to the city to be bombarded by billboards advertising all things LFC with not a single advertisement of EFC in sight (apart from that bus!)

It has got me thinking ? what is the job description for the members of staff in our so-called Marketing Department? It seems to me that they spend their days sitting on their arses doing absolutely fuck all!

Now I don?t like to see people lose their jobs, but if I spent my day in work doing nothing I?d get the sack pretty quickly (and before you start I?m writing this during my lunch break!) so why are they still in jobs? Have they been told by someone above them not to do any advertising work in the city centre? Are they in the process of launching some sort of amazing advertisement campaign that?ll turn everyone into blues?

I feel something needs to be done regarding the marketing team as it is just shambolic that there isn?t a single billboard in Liverpool City Centre with the Everton badge on it, which means a number of foreign visitors probably won?t know we exist!
Adam Bennett, Liverpool     Posted 11/06/2008 at 13:19:34

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Tony Williams
1   Posted 11/06/2008 at 13:53:36

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I can see what you are getting at and I can also see the monster of a cruise liner from my office, however, as our fan base is mainly within the catchment area of Merseyside, I doubt they think a saturation of advertising would be classed as a good investment.

Everything is seemingly tinternet based nowadays and to be honest if these tourists don’t know about us before they come I doubt a poster will give them pause and consider buying something with Everton on it.

I am still laughing at the poster near Rice Lane station telling people to get in early for teh Season Ticket waiting list. Wishful thinking methinks
2   Posted 11/06/2008 at 13:56:25

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Couldn’t agree more. There really is a feel at the moment that as far as the club is concerned they don’t believe they belong to the city anymore.

It is sheer incompetence. Imagine what a fantastic job that must be, to be marketing director of an institution like EFC, yet whoever has it, just (as you say) sits on their arse and lets us fester in the face of Capital of Culture, an event bringing more visitors to the city then ever before.

Remember JJB? Nothing "Everton" in any of their outlets.

If it wasn’t such a shame it would be funny.
Richard Jones
3   Posted 11/06/2008 at 14:12:33

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I once applied for a Job at Everton in the Marketing dept and skills that have been good enough for Carphone Warehouse & Dixons were put aside because I was a fan of the club and deemed not to be subjective.

When I was there Michael Dunford was referred to as Mr Dunford. I?ve never come across another organisation that still does that.

I?m afraid it?s indicative of the club and the culture. It?s living in the past and innovation is, sadly, not its forte.

Andy Willox
4   Posted 11/06/2008 at 14:26:46

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Said it the other week after the opening of Liverppol One, it is deliberate: for KMBC to benefit in raising it?s profile they want everything Everton to be under the Knowsley umbrella, not a LCC club on a jolly to a different borough, but permanently.
Think on, if the ground goes and the club shop at Goodison goes, then what trace of the club is left in the city? The use of Rupert's Tower on the crest would to me be insulting the heritage of Everton FC.
Chris Briddon
5   Posted 11/06/2008 at 14:43:08

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But the store we had in Liverpool City Centre closed due to it being too expensive. What would be the point in putting e store in Liverpool 1 that wouldn?t make money either.

The point of a marketing department is to make money not to throw it away for the sake of it.
Tony Marsh
6   Posted 11/06/2008 at 14:43:48

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we cant have our cake and eat now can we?If what we are told is true then a majority of Evertonians voted yes for us to move to Kirkby and leave this city.So why should this city promote anything to do with us when the world famous Liverpool FC is building a brand new stadium and filling all the hotel rooms every other week?

This is the start of EFC being overlooked and forgotten but still even as I write this there are Evertonians who think the Kirkby /Tesco move is a wonderfull opportunity.

It makes me laugh and makes me sick to the stomach what our own fans and board have done to us.Its easy to push the blame on to the LCC or even the staff at Goodison Park but at the end of the day its our own fans who voted to desert
Chris Briddon
7   Posted 11/06/2008 at 14:53:16

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Tony - its a chicken & egg situation isn?t it.

Did we ignore them because we are leaving or are we leaving because they didn?t give us any assistance.

I personally believe the latter as the only time LCC have made any attempt to help is when it became apparent we were considering going to Kirkby.

Look around you EFC have been overlooked in Liverpool for a long time now its not a recent thing
Mike Carlisle
8   Posted 11/06/2008 at 15:19:08

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blah blah blah blah blah...oh i’m sorry Tony Marsh, didn’t hear your self righteous rant there.

Genuine question, you have not been on this site for a while now. In fact I can’t remember anything from you since we convincingly beat Newcastle and claimed 5th until a few days ago when negative Everton related stories started being commented on again.

Do you seriously just sit there waiting for your moment to mouth off? And I don’t care what anyone says about freedom of speech, right of opinion and all that, it is obvious to most sane posters that you talk absolute self indulgent pizzle mixed in with rare moments of reason every time you comment.

Paul Gladwell
9   Posted 11/06/2008 at 15:39:33

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Tony could not of put it better myself, driving on the M53 behind a minty van with a sticker emblazed across the back of it one city one team one name, made me want to ram the shit , but we should all get used to it as it is what maddens majority voted for, but lads dont be bothered what the reds say! well I must apologise I work with them and what is happening cuts me up and it will get a thousnd times worse but I am sure we will market well in KIrkby and the people of the town will have our name branded out of their ears.
Tony Marsh
10   Posted 11/06/2008 at 15:38:36

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Mr Carlise, if you can find anything in my last comment that isn't true I would love here it. If Kenwright, fathead, and the Yes voters get their way, EFC will cease to be a football club that can claim to be from the city of Liverpool. How hard is that for you to grasp, smart arse?

St Helens Rugby club may as well start saying they are from Liverpool as well because Knowsley Road is only a mile from Kirkby. What the fuck is wrong with you lot. Can't you se what's happening?

We are being pushed and pulled by a couple of conmen from our rightful place in the city. The place of our birth is being taken away and our place in the culture and history of Liverpool is being ripped up and flushed down the Khazi but muppets like you think it ok to make light of it.

It's people like you that are ruining whats left of Everton FC with you gormless sycophantic approach to what ever the club throws at you. You believe all the bullshit you like and follow the club in to oblivion if you must. Some of us are not blind sheep though and that's were you have a problem... BAH.. BAH.. BAH
Mike Grundy
11   Posted 11/06/2008 at 15:49:30

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’’if the ground goes and the club shop at Goodison goes, then what trace of the club is left in the city?’’

That is a very scary thought........
Phil Hamer
12   Posted 11/06/2008 at 16:06:53

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Never thought I’d say it but Tony is absolutely spot on with this one.

’If Kenwright (etc) get their way EFC will cease to be a football club that can claim to be from the city of Liverpool. ’

How can anyone stomach that thought !? I’m from Cardiff and have no connections to Liverpool but it even rips ME up to think about it. My love for Everton has become a love for the city of Liverpool, it is intertwined. Take Liverpool away and its just not Everton anymore.
David Rodaway
13   Posted 11/06/2008 at 16:15:45

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We don’t know how to market the "brand" correctly (and I hate calling it a brand).

When we had rooney we brought out a load of "Rooney 18" tat, we had them silly wrist bands when we got into the CL qualifiers and we all know what happened then. We even brought out a DVD of the 7-1 thrashing of Sunderland.

The club is hell bent on moving to Kirkby and this 50,000 seat stadium to increase revenue but in order to increase revenue you also need to increase spend across the match day support and the casual fan. A club shop in the city centre, proper corporate facilities, not a tend in the car park, Increase the number of sponsors, affinity deals, a catalogue of merchandise, the whole lot.

I’ve been to ManU on a corporate day and they know what to do, we need to learn from those around us and evolve in how we operate not be dependant on next years sky money and loans.

Other than maybe a football top, what was the last thing you bought from Everton?

Fuck, even Sky news has pictures of the LA Lakers v Boston Celtics match showing every celeb and his mate.
Paul Lally
14   Posted 11/06/2008 at 16:32:31

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Posting this across any related threads on TW because the time has come for action.
Tony Marsh nail on the head.

Yes voters, you have had your ballot, which you keep quoting was fair and a mandate.( I was entitled to 2 votes in my household and did not receive ballot papers). Plus you have the EFC marketing machine on your side.
So no problem then.

To EVERYONE who believes Kirkby is a very, very bad decision then please find email info.
Send to as many people as you can so that our voice is heard.

Below is the list of e-mails I have sent the template from KEIOC to ( I simply opened up the template then copied and pasted into an email -

I could not find Andy Burnham?s email but his assistant is -

Tony Williams
15   Posted 11/06/2008 at 16:45:50

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So yet another thread decends into a Kirkby argument...Shocker....

I see that the on topic post by Chris Briddon was completely overlooked.

The Mega Store next to Central station was losing money so why would Everton want to spend more money building a new store when the previous one had already failed?
Rob Hollis
16   Posted 11/06/2008 at 17:16:01

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On the bright side we would be the biggest club in Kirby!
Ray Roche
17   Posted 11/06/2008 at 15:52:03

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Well, I never thought the day would dawn when I agree with EVERYTHING Tony Marsh has said. Occaisionally, no always, I think Tony is a "glass half empty" kind of bloke,whereas I like to think of myself as someone who?s happy that his glass has,at sometime in the not too distant past, been just a little bit damp at the bottom. The Kirkby move will be a disaster for our club. No-one will convince me that, if the vote was held NOW, with the benefit of all the information that has trickled out in a seemingly never ending stream pointing out the true cost of this "World Class Stadium", that the vote would still be a "Yes".
Roy Coyne
18   Posted 11/06/2008 at 18:05:59

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Why when Tony Marsh posts do so many "yes" voters have to make it about the man and not the content of his post? Is it perhaps that he is spot on with his points? I concede we will probably end up in Kirkby and then the Yes voters will be able to judge if they were right and the rest of us wrong. I doubt it but I sincerely hope that in future I can post my apologies for being wrong about the move.
Gavin Ramejkis
19   Posted 11/06/2008 at 18:26:12

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Refraining from the mud slinging Tony but I asked the question the other day that why can the only CEO in Merseyside not think it’s possible to market a premier league football team that has achieved European football in three of the last four years and has increased it’s media profile with the best of the rest premier football managers singing it’s praises NOT and I repeat NOT even attempt to market that club in the Capital of Culture? If you can’t make money on the back of those achievements I put it to you and everyone else reading that you have a seriously poor CEO who is unfit for purpose.
John McKie
20   Posted 11/06/2008 at 18:37:22

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I also have to agree with Tony Marsh to some extent and although he puts it across in the wrong way sometimes, the point he makes on this occasion is very valid.

(and I... albeit regrettably now in hindsight... voted Yes).

I think someone with some experience and nouse needs to arrange an unoffical pole, based on... "if asked the question now (based on the information that is now available and not what was available at the time of the official vote), would you vote for or against a move to Kirkby?"

I am also certain a new poll would see a majority ruling against the move and perhaps this information can then be forwarded to the relevant authorities and the board.

Just an idea.

By the way... Moyes on ITV now watching Portugal, is it worth reading into considering the recent links to Moutinho and Veloso???
Gavin Ramejkis
21   Posted 11/06/2008 at 18:56:40

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John when DM was asked about Moutinho he said there was nothing in it, wasn’t asked about Veloso though
John McKie
22   Posted 11/06/2008 at 19:00:06

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Cheers Gav.

I know it's not the theme of the post but... whats your thoughts on these two. I can't really comment on Moutinho but he seems like another small player that we don't need, whereas Veloso is a strong, combative midfielder who can play as well.

In all honesty, can't see us getting either with the big boys being linked.
Tony Williams
23   Posted 11/06/2008 at 19:31:13

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So the thread has now been hijacked by Kirkby and Tony Marsh.

Chris, can you advise if have you written to the people you have mentioned for an explanation? It would be interesting to see what they said, however it would probably be along the lines of what was mentioned earlier.

The demand for goods from the megastore by Central Station wasn’t enough so they closed it and got JJB to the loosest sense of the word... our gear for us.

Ray Robinson
24   Posted 11/06/2008 at 19:39:09

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Agree with the original poster. Showing some out of town firends around the capital of culture last Sunday, I came across a bloody great picture of the Red Shite on that monstrosity of a building outside Lime Street - you know that 60’s tower block opposite St John’s precinct that’s due for demolition.

It DOES matter. Where are Everton featured? Oh I forgot, we’re sponsoring a bloody miniature super lamb banana!
Paul Gladwell
25   Posted 11/06/2008 at 19:44:17

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The question is why was the demand not enough to keep it open especially in the culture year and yet a much bigger store is still open in Birkenhead?
Put it simply the stuff they sell is crap and mostly out of stock, the club is run by clueless fools with a history of cock ups and the biggest one is just on the horizon.
Gavin Ramejkis
26   Posted 11/06/2008 at 20:34:49

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John I watched Portugal’s first game and Moutinho’s pass for the second goal was very nice, he also had a pop from twenty odd yards out that went over the bar, hard to say much more than that other than he is very small and two internationals aren’t enough to say so for me, Veloso looks much stronger on the ball and tackle too.
Tony Williams
27   Posted 11/06/2008 at 21:05:00

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Paul, a bit of a contrdiction there. If it is crap then it wouldn’t sell so how can it be out of stock.

Each time I went into it it was fully stocked and the cothing merchandise was of a good standard.

I bought many a training top there.
Daniel Howard
28   Posted 11/06/2008 at 21:12:12

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I work at Princess Cruise Lines in Los Angeles and the cruise ship you can all see is the Grand Princess. I’m also a massive Blue, obviously.
Alan Codd
29   Posted 11/06/2008 at 22:27:26

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John Andrews
30   Posted 11/06/2008 at 23:22:44

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Could not agree more with Tony Marsh.
Jay Harris
31   Posted 11/06/2008 at 23:41:45

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Alan Codd
hope that makes you feel proud of yourself.

FYI and some of the other "GP can't be redeveloped" brigade read the article on the home page on TW clearly detailing how GP can be redeveloped and the cost in 2000.

Now if that useless smoke and mirrors Guy had got off his arse then the revelopment would be paid for now.

As regards marketing which this thread was supposed to be about how come Spurs with a capacity of only 36000 and nothing like our history get almost £40 million from marketing whereas we get about £8 million from all commercial activities.

How the fuck can we get more marketing income when KW sells our stores off because they were losing money?

He might as well sell EFC off because they?re losing money too!

The art of good management is to MANAGE not shut your eyes and hope for the best.

"People?s Club" & Capital of Culture don't make me laugh.
John Sreet
32   Posted 12/06/2008 at 07:04:49

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Seems to me the best way to protest over the move to Kirkby is to simply vote with your feet. You can bet the board of directors will notice if only 18,000 fans turn up at the first home match next season, and only 18,000 at the second and so on.
So if there really is a massive opposition for the move then KEIOC should get themesleves organised and make this happen.
However if in trying to organise a protest on this level and 36,000 supporters show up... then end of story/rants/arguments
Alan Willo
33   Posted 12/06/2008 at 07:37:50

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Tony Marsh, I park my car on Stuart Road near the Hillside School is that in the alleged great city boundary? I guess not its in Sefton, I cross Queens Drive to walk up to the ground I don?t need a passport or see any difference whatsoever! This out of the City observation or slant has been driven by KEIOC and it has all back fired in our faces. The title suggests that you would all love to move to Speke Industrial Estate or even Liverpool 8???? Well I think the objections would be far higher than the 1500 signatories in the current petition. We are told we have a worldwide fan base of around 4/500,000 and the online vote has hit 1500!! Anyway just look at what LCC has done to EFC on the Belfield site, it has politically used its power to harm EFC financially. What a great future partner they would have been, I must say those councilors with EFC season tickets surely know where their loyalties lay, and that?s why I and thousands of others chose to back the board rather than LCC. Kirkby is not the ideal location for all but it?s the only deliverable solution we have on the table so we either sit on our hands or make a decision and we have chosen the latter for the benefit of the club, only time will see if it?s the correct one but needless to say it has more opportunity of succeeding if we all back it. I have no objections with people saying No, but once the builders go in its time for us all to stick together and show the others that we are the People Club and not the County Road social club. COYB
Alan Codd
34   Posted 12/06/2008 at 08:54:53

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J Harris
Exactly the cost in 2000
Matty McKeown
35   Posted 12/06/2008 at 09:10:44

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I?ve got a season ticket but will sit out any protest games people want to organise. It?s no wonder were not taken seriously if we all turn up and take this outrage. Before anyone doubts mine or any other like minded blues crudentials, ask yourself how much we care to have to consider this action. Set it up. I?m in.
John Hughes
36   Posted 12/06/2008 at 09:16:56

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Anyway, back to the original thread. There is a fantastic oppotunity to "Give" anyone visiting the city via the new cruise terminal an Everton "gift" i.e. cup, poster, pen or even an Everton Branded tourist guide. If I can think of things like this why can’t the club? Granted it’s not going to bring in loads of money initially but by putting vouchers in it or special offeres then you’ve got a base to build on. It’s better than what we are doing at the moment.
Craig Ashford
37   Posted 12/06/2008 at 09:19:19

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To quote Richard Jones

"I once applied for a Job at Everton in the Marketing dept and skills that have been good enough for Carphone Warehouse & Dixons were put aside because I was a fan of the club and deemed not to be subjective"

Theres probably a few LFC fans in our Marketing suite laughing there tits off.
Ed Fitzgerald
38   Posted 12/06/2008 at 11:28:26

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Why should all get behind a move that many of us totally disagree with, the People Club don?t make me fucking laugh. When you are throwing your numbers around i.e. the on-line petition try to remember that over 10,000 did vote against it even with the misleading propaganda the club produced. If the vote was held today do you envisage a similar result?
Wyness is nothing more than an asset stripper rather like your beloved Mrs Thatcher. The clubs marketing has been an absolute joke and Wyness is responsible for this. He is meant to be in charge isn?t? The clubs indifference to its core support (within the City) you would probably call them clients being a business man Alan, is nothing short of disgusting. To play little or no part in the Capital of Culture or the Liverpool One development is poor business management. As for your comments about Liverpool 8 is that some kind of racist inference? Otherwise why make it? I would not be surprised after your comments about being happy to read the Sun after their coverage of Hillsborough. It was tasteless at best perhaps you could explain your rationale for buying that rag to some Liverpool fans that were there?
Paul Burdett
39   Posted 12/06/2008 at 12:06:41

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Been having a few e-mails with Gary Wilton who seems to be the only person at EFC who works in the "Retail Partnership" team (and Graeme Sharp before him) about our (lack of) presence and store in the city centre...

Might be of interest to a few people, and maybe some more could put pressure on the club to do something positive about the situation.

--- Gary Wilton wrote:

> Paul
> I am fully aware of the points you raise and
> continue to work with our Retail partner to address
> them
> Thanks for your input...
> Regards
> Gary
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Burdett

> Gary,
> Thanks for your reply.
> I am aware that there is some kind of retail
> partnership with JJB, and that they do have a store
> in the city centre. However, I believe that this is
> inadequate as a means of selling the Everton
> "Product". Imagine a visitor to the city, trying to
> find some EFC merchandise, I find it very difficult
> to believe that they are going to wander into JJB
> and then try and locate the EFC goods, as opposed to
> passing a (or maybe 2) dedicated store for all
> things, Everton. Liverpool FC certainly seem to
> think so, and so do other clubs in their respective
> locations around the country...
> I for one, am a decicated Everton fan, who would
> like nothing more than to be able to point to an EFC
> store in the city centre, it’s a source of pride, it
> would give us a presence there, something that is
> sorely lacking currently. Go into the city centre
> now, and where’s the presence, besides some
> floorspace in a JJB store ? Hardly setting the bar
> very high. Seems to me, an opportunity lost, and
> more than that potential fans, pride and income.
> Regards,
> Paul Burdett
> --- Gary Wilton wrote:
> > Paul
> >
> > Thank you for your e-mail. Apologies for the delay
> in replying but I
> > have just returned from holiday...
> >
> > JJB Sports currently operate our retail business,
> and have a store in
> > Williamson Square which is where they have chosen
> to run their Everton
> > city centre presence out of. We jointly have no
> plans to open a
> > dedicated city centre store at this stage, but
> reserve the option to
> > address this in the future.
> >
> > I can assure you that we are very keen to have a
> visible city centre
> > presence, and will continue to look at our
> options.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Gary Wilton
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Graeme Sharp
> > Sent: 21 May 2008 11:30
> > To: Gary Wilton
> > Subject: FW: City Centre Store
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Burdett
> > To: Graeme Sharp
> > Subject: RE: City Centre Store
> >
> >
> > Hello Graeme
> > I’ve had some correspondence with yourself about a
> city centre store
> > before, and not much progress appears to have
> happened, despite the
> > fact one of Europe’s largest retail developments
> is about to open in
> > the centre of Liverpool.
> >
> > It looks like a golden opportunity to increase
> revenue streams that
> > EFC are about to pass up, while LFC take full
> advantage (see below for
> > details, which have come from today’s Daily Post).
> >
> > Could you please pass this onto the club’s
> commercial or retail
> > manager and see what they can do, or what opinion
> they have.
> >
> > I’d be very interested to know their response.
> >
> > Thanks for your help,
> > Paul
Mark White
40   Posted 12/06/2008 at 13:11:36

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I would hope that if the final decision is made to approve the Kirkby development, then ALL supporters would get behind the club as wherever they play they will still be EFC and once the approval has been given and the site under construction no amount of arguing and protesting will stop it.
Ed Fitzgerald
41   Posted 12/06/2008 at 15:00:01

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Mark White

Please don’t patronise me. I have been a season ticket holder for thirty five years and my lad has had one for nineteen years. I think I am entitled to say enough is enough after watching the antics of KW and BK making the club a laughing stock.

IMO and I am not the only one as various posters on this site state clearly we will not be going to Destination Kirkby as I believe the club has sold its soul cheaply. Peoples reasons for not going will be complex and diverse, how many stop going is open to debate but for me it will be the end.

You are of course are entitled to your opinion as are all yes voters. But telling people who voted no and whose intentions are to jack it in, or at least not buy season tickets to get behind the club smacks of desperation.
Alan Willo
42   Posted 12/06/2008 at 17:50:18

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Ed, your aggressive nature and abuse just sums up you?re losing the argument and are getting desperate so the insults become more frequent. Can?t believe you have thrown the race card in too, what?s that all about. My annoyance at LFC for banning the Sun is based on the fact those reporters haven?t worked with them for years and the paper has made several public apologies. I believe one recently works with the BBC and the other the Guardian, not exactly right wing institutions are they? It?s obvious you find it difficult that a lad that has grown up next to GP has got off his arse and worked all his life and would never ever vote for the red team. My best mate was at Hillsborough and a big union man too, once I returned back from Villa Park I went straight to his house to check he was ok, I fully understand the whole dreadful episode. I don?t take this slant on the Sun because they never caused the disaster, I would have more respect for LFC Ltd and its blinkered fans if they acknowledged Heysel. Don?t see any bans or protests for the 39 people killed do we? Or is Justice just for our own?? Respect has to be earned, I respect the poor families that have lost people but I don?t respect a bandwagon that isolates one issue to kindly mask others. LFC fans and the club pull on the City?s support only when it suits them, I choose to make my own decisions. COYB
Ed Fitzgerald
43   Posted 12/06/2008 at 18:23:53

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LFC did not ban the Sun, the People of Liverpool boycott the Sun (or the vast majority do). Why mention Liverpool 8 and then add the questions marks then?? ?? It is you infer something in your text not me. Tell me what you mean? Read your own words below.
The title suggests that you would all love to move to Speke Industrial Estate or even Liverpool 8???? Well I think the objections would be far higher than the 1500 signatories in the current petition.
Let?s face it Alan WE have a reputation for having racist fans deserved or otherwise and the Sun is not renowned for its liberal treatment of ethnic minorities.
Give yourself a pat on the back Alan, you have got off your arse and worked, hey join the rest of us. I personally could not care less about your politics but once again it is you that trumpets ?I have worked hard and I have a business and I am a Tory from L4 ?etc in a variety of posts.
If you had one jot of sensitivity you would understand the damage to the people and the city the negative reporting of the Sun caused. Most Liverpool fans are no different to Everton fans (shock horror) most are decent people who equally revile what happened at Heysel as they do the lies that the Sun reported about Hillsborough. I would agree that the conduct of the club LFC is open to some scrutiny. Yes they have scum bag supporters just like we do.
As for the argument, let?s wait and see.
If you write something offensive expect a strong response.
Alan Willo
44   Posted 13/06/2008 at 07:45:07

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Ed, I don?t live in L4 haven?t for 15 years but my Mum still does. My comments about me and other issues on other posts are in context with what the debate was about so why bring that up in this one. I refer to L8 as it?s not the best area in the city, so I used the analogy of a new barren Industrial area and a run down area as point of reference for moving within the City. Race is only in the eye of the beholder so obviously it?s more important to you than me as I don?t give a shit about peoples colour, never have. I think you will find the Mail is a bit more aggressive to minorities than the Sun, after all the past three elections the Sun has backed Labour! Anyway people?s politics will always be subjective and my mates and I often argue but at the end of the day they are my mates. I agree at times I?m very anti the City of Liverpool especially when we always seem to portray ourselves as victims all the time. I?m lucky enough to travel the world in my work and I never stop telling people about what a great place it is and how EFC are better than LFC. I like to always push the positive side of it and referring to ?bad times? always leaves a cloud over the place, we have far more to offer than most people think. My LFC mates are fed up with the Sun thing and even the mentioning of Hillsborough, they all agree that they would like to move on and look ahead. Anyway, thanks for the comments good or bad I enjoy the debate even though we don?t agree on certain issues. COYB

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