The Mail Bag
Kirkby
Comments (53)
How about a petition in favour of the Destination Kirkby proposal in the interests of balance? Over 2,500 people have signed one in favour so far and one submitted at Knowlsey MBC last Monday at Council!
Mike Kay, Posted 12/06/2008 at 12:36:56
Comments
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Lyndon Lloyd
Since when has this Destination Kirkby travesty ever been about balance? I'm sure with the mandate from the ballot, endless spin from Big Keith, a willing mouthpiece in the form of the local press and Tesco's own financial and political muscle that Destination Kirkby has more than enough help without the need to trumpet a petition in its support.
Karl Masters
1 Posted 12/06/2008 at 17:49:15
1 Posted 12/06/2008 at 17:49:15
A good reason to question the point of this is that
A Petition against will be made up of some residents, but mainly football fans who don’t want the stadium.
A petition for will attract plenty of signatures, but how many will be football fans and how many will be locals with other reasons apart from football on their mind.
I guess that if 10,000 were against, probably 8,000 would be Evertonians, whilst if 10,000 were for it, 8000 would be locals wanting a big Tesco and only 2,000 would be Evertonians.
Whilst I have no reason to want no Tesco in Kirkby, I have a lot of reasons why I don’t want our football club there, especially in that crap stadium design.
Plus, how many RS do you think would sign a Yes petition??? It’s a flawed idea.
A Petition against will be made up of some residents, but mainly football fans who don’t want the stadium.
A petition for will attract plenty of signatures, but how many will be football fans and how many will be locals with other reasons apart from football on their mind.
I guess that if 10,000 were against, probably 8,000 would be Evertonians, whilst if 10,000 were for it, 8000 would be locals wanting a big Tesco and only 2,000 would be Evertonians.
Whilst I have no reason to want no Tesco in Kirkby, I have a lot of reasons why I don’t want our football club there, especially in that crap stadium design.
Plus, how many RS do you think would sign a Yes petition??? It’s a flawed idea.
Dave Wilson
2 Posted 12/06/2008 at 18:21:01
2 Posted 12/06/2008 at 18:21:01
Lets face it, if this still goes ahead, the club is finished, Any team based in Kirkby would be playing to a largely empty stadium, the yes men will be deserting in their droves
Then you’ll never find anyone who will admit that they voted yes
Then you’ll never find anyone who will admit that they voted yes
Gordon Blair
3 Posted 12/06/2008 at 18:49:41
3 Posted 12/06/2008 at 18:49:41
I think you’ll find plenty of Kopites happy to sign that one... we’re not even definately going yet and they’re already chimping at work.
One city one club my arse
One city one club my arse
Gavin Ramejkis
4 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:04:02
4 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:04:02
First signature would be that prick Gerard Ross sorry Madden
Chris Briddon
5 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:10:11
5 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:10:11
You see that is the problem with this arguement at present.
As soon as you try to do anything pro-Kirkby people are up in arms, whereas a petition against gets lots of approval.
All supporters are allowed their opinions and should be entltled to express them. The fact that you have stopped posting my comments implies that this is no longer the case on here and any pro-Kirkby posts are removed.
Well if that is the way you want to run it then so be it, I have not posted anything provocative or offensive, its just that my opinion is different to many of those who are allowed a free rant and abuse of EFC board members whenever they feel like it.
If this is the way its going, then don’t expect any pro-Kirkby fans to post at all as it becomes completely not worthwhile
I won’t be at all surprised if you don’t post this as that would fit with everything I’ve already said
As soon as you try to do anything pro-Kirkby people are up in arms, whereas a petition against gets lots of approval.
All supporters are allowed their opinions and should be entltled to express them. The fact that you have stopped posting my comments implies that this is no longer the case on here and any pro-Kirkby posts are removed.
Well if that is the way you want to run it then so be it, I have not posted anything provocative or offensive, its just that my opinion is different to many of those who are allowed a free rant and abuse of EFC board members whenever they feel like it.
If this is the way its going, then don’t expect any pro-Kirkby fans to post at all as it becomes completely not worthwhile
I won’t be at all surprised if you don’t post this as that would fit with everything I’ve already said
Bob Turner
6 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:10:19
6 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:10:19
Dave,
You have plenty of names on here of people who have already admitted they voted yes, even now. So why would they desert in their droves?
If they did, they’d only be following in the footsteps of those who desert in their droves without even setting foot in Kirkby anyway.
You have plenty of names on here of people who have already admitted they voted yes, even now. So why would they desert in their droves?
If they did, they’d only be following in the footsteps of those who desert in their droves without even setting foot in Kirkby anyway.
Gavin Ramejkis
7 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:17:58
7 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:17:58
Cue the violins Chris, one thing this site has plenty of is pro and anti Kirkby posts. If the webmasters of the site don’t agree with what you have to say or it doesn’t make their criteria (see it’s not just a Bullyshitism) then why should they post it? If they were truly completely one sided how does Ian Ross/Madden get posted on all things Kirkby?
Dave Wilson
8 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:17:27
8 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:17:27
Thousands of Evertonians have said DK is unacceptable
The yes men know this, they know how desperate some life long Evertonians are are not to go and they still want to push ahead
The trouble is when the yes men have realised they have destroyed a once great club and they merely follow a pale imposter of the Everton they once loved, they?ll leave in their droves
Everybody loses.
The yes men know this, they know how desperate some life long Evertonians are are not to go and they still want to push ahead
The trouble is when the yes men have realised they have destroyed a once great club and they merely follow a pale imposter of the Everton they once loved, they?ll leave in their droves
Everybody loses.
Gerard Madden
9 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:35:24
9 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:35:24
I know what you’re saying Mike Kay but to be honest I dont think a petition would really be that fruitful in this case. The people o’ Kirkby made their views crystal clear in the local elections one month ago, when pro-DK Labour won 60% across the town and won all the seats - this despite some wise sages on small messageboards ’n forums predicting lost deposits etc for Labour. The Downing Street Petitions system is a sham in any case, other petitions there include 49,000 signatures for Jeremy Clarkson to be PM! And another one contained 45,000 signatures for Bob Paisley to be posthumously knighted - says it all really...
ron leith
10 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:51:12
10 Posted 12/06/2008 at 19:51:12
Lets face it anybody who signs a petition and puts down their address as Liverpool will clearly indicate that they have an axe to grind and their signatures can be discounted. In fact anybody who still thinks that anywhere within the boundary of Liverpool FC City Council is a good place for EFC to stay must be satrk raving bonkers. Question how many people objected to the new Anfield, thousands of locals but LFC City Council ignored them. How many locals voted against Bellfield answers probably far less. LFC City Council refuses Bellfield. Any EFC supporter who does not want EFC to have the financial clout to compete in the Premier League must be mad.
Tony Marks
11 Posted 12/06/2008 at 20:19:54
11 Posted 12/06/2008 at 20:19:54
Nice reasoned arguement there Lyndon. Toffeeweb sure is a balanced site eh?
Not!
Gavin,
Is personal abuse really necessary?
Like it or not, people have differing views and like it or not people are free to express them. It’s sad that name calling brings it down to such a low level.
Not!
Gavin,
Is personal abuse really necessary?
Like it or not, people have differing views and like it or not people are free to express them. It’s sad that name calling brings it down to such a low level.
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
12 Posted 12/06/2008 at 20:44:40
Editorial Team
12 Posted 12/06/2008 at 20:44:40
Tony, we?ve allowed an open forum for contributions, posted submissions from all sides and allowed Mr Madden virtual free rein to wind people up something chronic with his endless and infuriating bullshit, but with the chips down and this club standing on a precipice forgive me if I don?t offer any further support to Destination Kirkby.
Dave Wilson
13 Posted 12/06/2008 at 20:38:20
13 Posted 12/06/2008 at 20:38:20
The guy who posts as Madden
It’s about time I issued you with another invitation
When Kikrby goes belly up and your treacherous and Gullible friends skulk away with their tales between their legs, take a stroll along county Rd before the next home game, call in witherspoons, give me a tap on the shoulder and I’ll buy you a nice County Rd pint,
How will you know me ?
Thats easy I’ll be the one laughing the fucking loudest
It’s about time I issued you with another invitation
When Kikrby goes belly up and your treacherous and Gullible friends skulk away with their tales between their legs, take a stroll along county Rd before the next home game, call in witherspoons, give me a tap on the shoulder and I’ll buy you a nice County Rd pint,
How will you know me ?
Thats easy I’ll be the one laughing the fucking loudest
Brendan ONeill
14 Posted 12/06/2008 at 21:02:02
14 Posted 12/06/2008 at 21:02:02
Firstly. as a season ticket holder of some 30 years I think I’m entitled to my view. The reason I say this is that I am pro Kirkby.
Other people who are anti DK seem to believe that pro DK aren’t entitled.
We’ve heard lots of reasons from the anti DK brigade as to why we shouldn’t vote such as the design, the boundary issue etc.
However, my view is that the underlying reason for their view cropped up in Dave Wilson’s post - the County Road pre and post match drinking issue.
These people have less the good of the club at stake and more the disturbance of their pre and post match ritual, hence the reason why their preferred alternatives are a) re-develop Goddison and b) the loop.
We need to move to compete. Why would Kenwright willing choose to incur the wrath of so many people unless it was for the greater good.
If so called supporters say that they will stop supporting if we move to Kirkby, then they are do not love the club as I do.
What other conditions are they going to include next for their support. What happens if we finish in the bottom 3? Is that also a reason to stop supporting?
Other people who are anti DK seem to believe that pro DK aren’t entitled.
We’ve heard lots of reasons from the anti DK brigade as to why we shouldn’t vote such as the design, the boundary issue etc.
However, my view is that the underlying reason for their view cropped up in Dave Wilson’s post - the County Road pre and post match drinking issue.
These people have less the good of the club at stake and more the disturbance of their pre and post match ritual, hence the reason why their preferred alternatives are a) re-develop Goddison and b) the loop.
We need to move to compete. Why would Kenwright willing choose to incur the wrath of so many people unless it was for the greater good.
If so called supporters say that they will stop supporting if we move to Kirkby, then they are do not love the club as I do.
What other conditions are they going to include next for their support. What happens if we finish in the bottom 3? Is that also a reason to stop supporting?
MIke Byrne
15 Posted 12/06/2008 at 21:16:54
15 Posted 12/06/2008 at 21:16:54
Ron Leith
You sure do make some massive leaps of judgement in your mail
- ie anyone from Liverpool has an axe to grind and their signatures can be discounted - presumably you have the same views about their thoughts and feelings so on this basis prob 80% of the posts on this site can be discounted according to your warped logic?
- agree with you on inept, corrupt and incompetent council but that doesn’t mean I want to leave the city to the Red-shite - far from it as a move away will (in my view) be the death knell for this club
- of course everyone wnats Everton to have the financial clout but you dont explain why, how and if moving to Kirkby will provide this.
IMHO the matchday experience will change that much that thousand of people will no longer go - there are very few local hostleries, you cannot get near to the ground by car and the proposed public transport is like your post - one big joke.
It may only be 5 miles from Goodison but how would you feel walking two or three of them on a cold wet windy winter night cos that is exactly what is planned.
If it wasnt so fucking serious it woudl be funny but it serious - desperately so
You sure do make some massive leaps of judgement in your mail
- ie anyone from Liverpool has an axe to grind and their signatures can be discounted - presumably you have the same views about their thoughts and feelings so on this basis prob 80% of the posts on this site can be discounted according to your warped logic?
- agree with you on inept, corrupt and incompetent council but that doesn’t mean I want to leave the city to the Red-shite - far from it as a move away will (in my view) be the death knell for this club
- of course everyone wnats Everton to have the financial clout but you dont explain why, how and if moving to Kirkby will provide this.
IMHO the matchday experience will change that much that thousand of people will no longer go - there are very few local hostleries, you cannot get near to the ground by car and the proposed public transport is like your post - one big joke.
It may only be 5 miles from Goodison but how would you feel walking two or three of them on a cold wet windy winter night cos that is exactly what is planned.
If it wasnt so fucking serious it woudl be funny but it serious - desperately so
Mike Byrne
16 Posted 12/06/2008 at 21:34:04
16 Posted 12/06/2008 at 21:34:04
Brendan
You are missing one point - people are not saying they will stop supporting Everton just that they will not go.
And to suggest that anyone who does not (or indeed cannot given the proposed transport plan) get to Kirkby is somehow inferior to you is arrogance beyond that that comes from the Red-shite across the park
You are missing one point - people are not saying they will stop supporting Everton just that they will not go.
And to suggest that anyone who does not (or indeed cannot given the proposed transport plan) get to Kirkby is somehow inferior to you is arrogance beyond that that comes from the Red-shite across the park
Marc Williams
17 Posted 12/06/2008 at 21:30:55
17 Posted 12/06/2008 at 21:30:55
A petition in favour of Kirky, wouldn’t that be like " TURKEYS VOTING FOR CHRISTMAS" now you’d have to be a right
DOZY CLUCKER to to that.
DOZY CLUCKER to to that.
Paul Gladwell
18 Posted 12/06/2008 at 21:28:53
18 Posted 12/06/2008 at 21:28:53
Brendan a few things, one of the no vote biggest fears is what will happen to our fanbase over the decade following any such move.
1.We WILL lose the youth of the city over a period of time, not all but a large percentage, especially when the scum go on a major marketing ploy to eradicate our name from the city which they have already started.
2.What do the club plan to do regarding the replacement of the people who either wont be going at all, or the people who will pick their games to see if they still feel the same Everton?
3.Only speaking on my views as someone from wirral, but we will also lose support over our side too over the years following such a move, the wirral is a blue hotbed and the easy access to Goodison when you can leave your house, pub or whatever at 2.20am and make kick off will certainly put punters off a cold January game against Wigan when it is on the arab channel in their local.
3,This corporate myth that from somewhere the poorest fanbase in the country that has empty corporate facilities for every home game in a city, is all of a sudden going to fill hundreds of them in a town bordering Lancashire farmland.
We all know we need better facilities but this can be done correctly with patience over a period of time, not a quick fix taking risks so high they could potentially destroy what we have forever, because once this risk is taken there is no going back and to me staying at Goodison and slowly developing over a number of years far outweighs the risks invlved in this "lie of the century" Everton football club could afford to do things this way and Everton Football Club will not die if we stay and if people think we will then you dont know our football club as well as you say.
1.We WILL lose the youth of the city over a period of time, not all but a large percentage, especially when the scum go on a major marketing ploy to eradicate our name from the city which they have already started.
2.What do the club plan to do regarding the replacement of the people who either wont be going at all, or the people who will pick their games to see if they still feel the same Everton?
3.Only speaking on my views as someone from wirral, but we will also lose support over our side too over the years following such a move, the wirral is a blue hotbed and the easy access to Goodison when you can leave your house, pub or whatever at 2.20am and make kick off will certainly put punters off a cold January game against Wigan when it is on the arab channel in their local.
3,This corporate myth that from somewhere the poorest fanbase in the country that has empty corporate facilities for every home game in a city, is all of a sudden going to fill hundreds of them in a town bordering Lancashire farmland.
We all know we need better facilities but this can be done correctly with patience over a period of time, not a quick fix taking risks so high they could potentially destroy what we have forever, because once this risk is taken there is no going back and to me staying at Goodison and slowly developing over a number of years far outweighs the risks invlved in this "lie of the century" Everton football club could afford to do things this way and Everton Football Club will not die if we stay and if people think we will then you dont know our football club as well as you say.
Jay Campbell
19 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:07:35
19 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:07:35
Nutend!!
Paul Sherlock
20 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:06:58
20 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:06:58
they should conduct a new survey as in the yes/no ballot of last year, many evertonians were left out of the vote due to them;
a) not being able to afford a season ticket
b) not being able to own one due to other commitments
so how about with every new home/ away shirt sold evertonians would then get a vote towards kirkby, see how many vote yes then eh?!
a) not being able to afford a season ticket
b) not being able to own one due to other commitments
so how about with every new home/ away shirt sold evertonians would then get a vote towards kirkby, see how many vote yes then eh?!
Brendan ONeill
21 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:00:17
21 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:00:17
Mike
I’m not suggesting in any way that I am superior because i am able to get to Kirkby. I’m from Ormskirk so yes Kirkby is easier for me to get to than it will be for some people.
However, if the re-location had been to Speke or even Cronton, both of which have been talked about, I would still be in favour, if the deal was the best option for the club.
2 other points.
Are you seriously suggesting that its going to be impossible to get to a location 4 miles from Goodison. We’re not talking about moving to the moon.
Paul
I have to say that you have made some excellent points which I respect and take on board.
If it was feasible to stay at Goodison, I would be all for it. The happiest moments of my life have happened there and also some of the saddest.
BK knows this as well. If it was a possibility to stay and re-develop, BK would go for it. But it isn’t.
However, the points you make are well made and I applaud the logic in what you say. Its just a shame that other anti DK aren’t able to show the same coherence.
I’m not suggesting in any way that I am superior because i am able to get to Kirkby. I’m from Ormskirk so yes Kirkby is easier for me to get to than it will be for some people.
However, if the re-location had been to Speke or even Cronton, both of which have been talked about, I would still be in favour, if the deal was the best option for the club.
2 other points.
Are you seriously suggesting that its going to be impossible to get to a location 4 miles from Goodison. We’re not talking about moving to the moon.
Paul
I have to say that you have made some excellent points which I respect and take on board.
If it was feasible to stay at Goodison, I would be all for it. The happiest moments of my life have happened there and also some of the saddest.
BK knows this as well. If it was a possibility to stay and re-develop, BK would go for it. But it isn’t.
However, the points you make are well made and I applaud the logic in what you say. Its just a shame that other anti DK aren’t able to show the same coherence.
Paul Gladwell
22 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:17:47
22 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:17:47
Bendan fair shouts yourself mate, thats what this site is meant to be about, not idiots coming on winding people up or calling people nutends for being totally gutted about what you think is happening to something so close to your heart.
Roy Coyne
23 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:17:35
23 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:17:35
Brendan I have been a regular at goodison since 1958 and as I have trouble walking I arrive by Taxi and do not drink in the area so moving on them grounds has no effect on me .But I am against the move for all the reasons already stated the vast majority of no voters are that way because we all feel it is the wrong move for the club.and if I ever doubted it Madden proves I am right with every bullshit post he writes on Bullys say so.
paul brom
24 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:30:38
24 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:30:38
why are everton moving out of a city that is on the move attracting more people and more tourists with capital of culture year and all that is goin on. yet we are planning a move to a little town of 40 000. so instead of attracting fans we are surely going to lose fans by going out the city.
John Andrews
25 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:32:31
25 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:32:31
Brendan, Why is it not possible to redevelop Goodison ?
Tony Williams
26 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:41:22
26 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:41:22
So Dave, if it does come to pass that we move to Kirkby and it goes tits up you will be the one....let me get this right.....laughing the loudest in the pub?
Strange comment coming from an Evertonian that. laughing at the demise of the club he supports.
Strange comment coming from an Evertonian that. laughing at the demise of the club he supports.
andy willox
27 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:47:43
27 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:47:43
Tony, there’s a difference, because the club that fails in Kirkby will be the bastard child of Wyness and Kenwright, Nu Everton, not the one they killed by severing it from it’s mother, the city of Liverpool. I’d be laughing too, after I’d mourned the loss of Everton FC
Brendan ONeill
28 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:46:00
28 Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:46:00
John
I’m not saying its not possible to re-develop Goodison but it does not appear to be feasible.
Assuming that we could do it over a 3 or 4 year period, that would mean that at least one side of the ground would be unavailable each year.
That means that we lose even more money compared to our rivals.
Our match day revenue is already way behind, the likes of Man City, newcastle, Spurs, Aston Villa etc
If we want to compete and move clear of them and challenge the Sky4 we need to increase and improve in this area.
A 4 yr period of reduced revenue compared to where we are now could sink our future plans.
I’m not saying its not possible to re-develop Goodison but it does not appear to be feasible.
Assuming that we could do it over a 3 or 4 year period, that would mean that at least one side of the ground would be unavailable each year.
That means that we lose even more money compared to our rivals.
Our match day revenue is already way behind, the likes of Man City, newcastle, Spurs, Aston Villa etc
If we want to compete and move clear of them and challenge the Sky4 we need to increase and improve in this area.
A 4 yr period of reduced revenue compared to where we are now could sink our future plans.
Ray Lupton
29 Posted 12/06/2008 at 23:14:28
29 Posted 12/06/2008 at 23:14:28
Brendan
I appreciate the way you have approached the debate here without resorting to winding people up. Everyone is entitled to there opinions and good on you for expressing yours.
However I must take umbrage with you over the matter of lost revenue whilst re-developing Goodison. Building Kirkby will require vast amounts of money up front, possibly a bridging loan of some sort and will have to be paid for whilst it is being built so that is money that will have to be found, no different really than having a reduced attendance whilst sides of goodison are developed. The club could maximise revenue during construction by ensuring the rest of the ground is always sold out with discounted ticket offers or the like.
I genuinely believe that a staged approach to the redevelopment of Goodison is the only feasible option. Re-build the Park end first with new club offices, new ticket office, changing rooms, corporate hospitality then move on from there. That way huge amounts of space can be freed up to enable the main stand to be redeveloped to the maximum potential on the limited footprint.
Then I’d rebuild the Bullens and Street End in stages and focus those on the core fans to remain affordable and to try and keep the essence of the stands as they are.
This can be done within our budget there is no doubt.
I appreciate the way you have approached the debate here without resorting to winding people up. Everyone is entitled to there opinions and good on you for expressing yours.
However I must take umbrage with you over the matter of lost revenue whilst re-developing Goodison. Building Kirkby will require vast amounts of money up front, possibly a bridging loan of some sort and will have to be paid for whilst it is being built so that is money that will have to be found, no different really than having a reduced attendance whilst sides of goodison are developed. The club could maximise revenue during construction by ensuring the rest of the ground is always sold out with discounted ticket offers or the like.
I genuinely believe that a staged approach to the redevelopment of Goodison is the only feasible option. Re-build the Park end first with new club offices, new ticket office, changing rooms, corporate hospitality then move on from there. That way huge amounts of space can be freed up to enable the main stand to be redeveloped to the maximum potential on the limited footprint.
Then I’d rebuild the Bullens and Street End in stages and focus those on the core fans to remain affordable and to try and keep the essence of the stands as they are.
This can be done within our budget there is no doubt.
Tony Williams
30 Posted 12/06/2008 at 23:31:40
30 Posted 12/06/2008 at 23:31:40
Fair enough Andy, is this the club that was not actually "born" in Liverpool when at Analfield and even when we moved to Goodison? Both grounds were initially outside the boundary of Liverpool.
Is this Everton not the same Everton as back then?
So it’s all down to location and that’s it? If we are not in Liverpool we cannot be Everton?
I disagree. If we were move to Bootle, would that be the same? That’s not in Liverpool.
Is this Everton not the same Everton as back then?
So it’s all down to location and that’s it? If we are not in Liverpool we cannot be Everton?
I disagree. If we were move to Bootle, would that be the same? That’s not in Liverpool.
Ed Fitzgerald
31 Posted 12/06/2008 at 23:15:43
31 Posted 12/06/2008 at 23:15:43
Here?s an idea Mike
Before the ballot allow both pro and anti DK camps to present their case to those who are eligible to vote about the ground move so the claims of both camps be questioned and analysed so people arrive at an informed decision.
No we will give you a vote so be fucking grateful
Here?s the choice folks
Err move as we have no other plans and actually we can?t talk to anyone else anyway, oh and Goodison is going to fail its safety certificate
But don?t worry it will be a world class stadium in a vibrant city centre his words, it will cost us next to nothing (lets say 20 Million tops and I am being generous to KW) and be serviced by a state of the art transport system
That fat twat Wyness has done this club more harm than Ian Rush, Bill Shankly ever has, his sidekick the invisible man has not exactly covered himself in glory either, People who are against Kirkby complete the petition now!
Lyndon/Michael
Is this link to the petition being shared with other Everton Websites and on other forums?
Before the ballot allow both pro and anti DK camps to present their case to those who are eligible to vote about the ground move so the claims of both camps be questioned and analysed so people arrive at an informed decision.
No we will give you a vote so be fucking grateful
Here?s the choice folks
Err move as we have no other plans and actually we can?t talk to anyone else anyway, oh and Goodison is going to fail its safety certificate
But don?t worry it will be a world class stadium in a vibrant city centre his words, it will cost us next to nothing (lets say 20 Million tops and I am being generous to KW) and be serviced by a state of the art transport system
That fat twat Wyness has done this club more harm than Ian Rush, Bill Shankly ever has, his sidekick the invisible man has not exactly covered himself in glory either, People who are against Kirkby complete the petition now!
Lyndon/Michael
Is this link to the petition being shared with other Everton Websites and on other forums?
Dave Wilson
32 Posted 13/06/2008 at 05:08:45
32 Posted 13/06/2008 at 05:08:45
Brendon I have missed 7 away games in the past 4 seasons, I dont tell you this to make out I’m some sort of super Evertonian - there are people in my circle who make me look like a part timer -
Strangely enough, I have’nt been to County Rd once before any of these games,
nor have I been to County rd before home games whenever I have to drive, which is about 50% of the time
Your argument that people not wanting to go to Kirkby for selfish reasons, because they want to drink on County Rd doesnt stack up at all, if that was the only issue what would stop people doing both ???
Tony Williams
I was talking about the Kirkby plans going belly up (you know the ones that you and people like Madden are so desperate to push through)
If EFC moved Kirkby, then as far as I’m concerned that may kill this club
I would take no pleasure in everybody losing
Strangely enough, I have’nt been to County Rd once before any of these games,
nor have I been to County rd before home games whenever I have to drive, which is about 50% of the time
Your argument that people not wanting to go to Kirkby for selfish reasons, because they want to drink on County Rd doesnt stack up at all, if that was the only issue what would stop people doing both ???
Tony Williams
I was talking about the Kirkby plans going belly up (you know the ones that you and people like Madden are so desperate to push through)
If EFC moved Kirkby, then as far as I’m concerned that may kill this club
I would take no pleasure in everybody losing
Paul Gladwell
33 Posted 13/06/2008 at 07:38:44
33 Posted 13/06/2008 at 07:38:44
With regards to reduced capacity during a redevelopment of Goodison it has been shown on here many from Tom Hughes that starting with the Park End upper tier the ground would keep a capacity of around 38,000 and I do remember they managed to build the current main stand in two phases, if you recall people where watching games in the main stand with half the old stand still there and half the new one built next to it and this was done in 1971.
Brendan ONeill
34 Posted 13/06/2008 at 07:55:29
34 Posted 13/06/2008 at 07:55:29
As someone who voted Yes to DK, people on this site know my views on why I think we should go.
However, I am not so arrogant that it is not possible to change my views. Some of the more considered and rational anti DK contributors, Ray Lupton and Paul Gladwell have both made me think a lot more than the irrational, emotive and often aggressive and insulting views of others.
I’m not saying I have changed my mind, but I am less convinced of my original view.
One point that has occurred to me is how would a redeveloped Goodison look compared to RS new stadium.
if its going to be significantly inferior, would the proximity of the 2 stadia highlight a gulf between US and THEM?
If that is the case, in some ways a move of some sorts to put ’clear blue water’ between us might not be such a bad idea.
However, I am not so arrogant that it is not possible to change my views. Some of the more considered and rational anti DK contributors, Ray Lupton and Paul Gladwell have both made me think a lot more than the irrational, emotive and often aggressive and insulting views of others.
I’m not saying I have changed my mind, but I am less convinced of my original view.
One point that has occurred to me is how would a redeveloped Goodison look compared to RS new stadium.
if its going to be significantly inferior, would the proximity of the 2 stadia highlight a gulf between US and THEM?
If that is the case, in some ways a move of some sorts to put ’clear blue water’ between us might not be such a bad idea.
Chris Briddon
35 Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:33:24
35 Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:33:24
Gavin - I’m sorry you feel that way, I was under the impression that the website allowed people to express different opinions and they didn’t have to agree with ’the management’
If I have to put up with Tony marsh and his outpourings of positivity then surely I am entitled to post my(hopefully constructive) views on the subject from whatever side of the debate they are on.
The problem with the Kirkby debate is tha tit goes round in circles and too many No voters are not prepared to accept other people have different ideas and must be under instruction from EFC to post.
Well newsflash, there ar eplent of other Everton sites around where there are a large majority of people in favour of the move to Kirkby - me among them.
My personal opinion is that staying at Goodison for any length of time will cause Everton to fall behind - not just the ’big 4’ but alot of the rest who we can compete with and are ahead of at present.
Nobody is going to come & invest if alot of their money is going to go on a new stadium.
I know there’s no evidence to back it up yet, (but there’s none to contradict it either) but I also believe that a new stadium will allow us to improve our hospitality & conference facilities which are fairly modest at present (a marquee in the car park for goodness sake!)
I am also happy with the location and the stadium plans that I have seen to date.
I realise the transport issue, but have been to lots of stadiums with transport problems (if you are travelling by car from Goodison its not great and takes you ages to get back to the motorway again!). It is also something that we are yet to see the final solution for and I am prepared to reserve judgement on this issue yet.
To sum up, I believe we have to move and Kirkby is the best, most affordable, achievable location that we have so I am happy to go there.
I accept that others will have a different view, but try not to resort to abuse and name-calling to get it across please it doesn’t help the cause one bit
If I have to put up with Tony marsh and his outpourings of positivity then surely I am entitled to post my(hopefully constructive) views on the subject from whatever side of the debate they are on.
The problem with the Kirkby debate is tha tit goes round in circles and too many No voters are not prepared to accept other people have different ideas and must be under instruction from EFC to post.
Well newsflash, there ar eplent of other Everton sites around where there are a large majority of people in favour of the move to Kirkby - me among them.
My personal opinion is that staying at Goodison for any length of time will cause Everton to fall behind - not just the ’big 4’ but alot of the rest who we can compete with and are ahead of at present.
Nobody is going to come & invest if alot of their money is going to go on a new stadium.
I know there’s no evidence to back it up yet, (but there’s none to contradict it either) but I also believe that a new stadium will allow us to improve our hospitality & conference facilities which are fairly modest at present (a marquee in the car park for goodness sake!)
I am also happy with the location and the stadium plans that I have seen to date.
I realise the transport issue, but have been to lots of stadiums with transport problems (if you are travelling by car from Goodison its not great and takes you ages to get back to the motorway again!). It is also something that we are yet to see the final solution for and I am prepared to reserve judgement on this issue yet.
To sum up, I believe we have to move and Kirkby is the best, most affordable, achievable location that we have so I am happy to go there.
I accept that others will have a different view, but try not to resort to abuse and name-calling to get it across please it doesn’t help the cause one bit
Anthony Osullivan
36 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:27:51
36 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:27:51
As you know Mike this site is as fair and balanced as Fox news.
chris roberts
37 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:45:02
37 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:45:02
Lyndon, Toffeeweb has many good qualities but to in a (I would say misguided) attempt to boost the opposition to the Kirkby move Toffeeweb itself has suffered.
The abuse of pro move people, the club, board and others has been on occasion shocking and possibly libellous. I’m sorry to say this but Anthony above is right. The long term problem is I think diminishing of a very good fan site.
The abuse of pro move people, the club, board and others has been on occasion shocking and possibly libellous. I’m sorry to say this but Anthony above is right. The long term problem is I think diminishing of a very good fan site.
Greg Murphy
38 Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:29:15
38 Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:29:15
The perceived persecution within the ranks of the "yes" camp staggers me. The self-assumption of victim-status is equally astonishing. Go drag out the brochure accompanying the ballot "procedure" and tell me where the balance is. Check out the "Destination Kirkby" sub-site on the club web and tell me likewise. Have a look at the archives in the local press etc.
In the interests of "balance". Make me laugh.
The only reason we’re allowed to have such a debate on TW is because it’s outlawed on the OS.
How’s that for balance?
In the interests of "balance". Make me laugh.
The only reason we’re allowed to have such a debate on TW is because it’s outlawed on the OS.
How’s that for balance?
Chris Roberts
39 Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:38:35
39 Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:38:35
I don?t feel like a victim (though I notice there is a decent chance of being prison-sexed by the glass-half-empty lifers in here if you say nice things about Bill Knenwright) but what I said is true. The impression everytime I come on ToffeeWeb is overwhelmingly negative and off-putting.
There is a difference between taking a stance on an issue and allowing that issue to completely colour everything which is what I think has happened to ToffeeWeb over Kirkby.
Think of it like this. Historically I?ve not agreed politically with the Daily Telegraph but I recognise that it has good writers, reporters and can offer informed debate on topics. The London Evening Standard on the other hand is such biased arse gravy that I barely trust its TV listings.
Toffeeweb is in danger of slipping from one to the other and I think this is sad that?s all.
There is a difference between taking a stance on an issue and allowing that issue to completely colour everything which is what I think has happened to ToffeeWeb over Kirkby.
Think of it like this. Historically I?ve not agreed politically with the Daily Telegraph but I recognise that it has good writers, reporters and can offer informed debate on topics. The London Evening Standard on the other hand is such biased arse gravy that I barely trust its TV listings.
Toffeeweb is in danger of slipping from one to the other and I think this is sad that?s all.
Greg Murphy
40 Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:57:41
40 Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:57:41
Appreciate what you’re saying, Chris, genuinely do. But when I read pieces like Dave Thompson’s "The Deal of the Century...but for Whom?", I have to wonder why it’s left to the likes of TW to expose the finer realities of the move to Kirkby.
Fair enough, there are some who may read Dave Thompson’s piece and say "so what?". If that’s the case, though, then why are such details not presented on the Club OS? The Club surely can’t be scared of exposing such details if they’re so innocuous. However, I don’t believe the Club does believe details such as those exposed by Dave Thompson are innocuous. So they hide them.
Likewise, you won’t read fine print details like Dave Thompson’s in the Daily Post & Echo. Why? Because the company is a commercial partner of EFC and there is a veiled threat (always said with a smile, of course) to all the reporters on both papers that they might find the doors to the press box barred if they dig too deeply into the Kirkby subject.
It’s all very well saying that as journalists they should stand on their principles and present a balanced picture regardless of threats but that’s not easy when there are mortgages to pay and petrol is costing £300 a litre.
No, the only place that you ever get to read the full details about Kirkby is here on TW. At least by presenting pieces like Dave Thompson’s it gives both sides of the debate the chance to say "so what?" or "this is a scandal". And it allows us to comment.
You don’t get such a choice or chance on the Club OS which only knows a "thumbs up" option whenever it does decide to add to its Kirkby reportage.
There would be no need for TW to regurgitate essential details of the Kirkby project in the manner that Dave Thompson has if they were already available on the Club OS or in the DP&E.
For then I’d be saying to TW "can’t you tell us something new?".
As it is, there’s only TW which is telling me something new.
Fair enough, there are some who may read Dave Thompson’s piece and say "so what?". If that’s the case, though, then why are such details not presented on the Club OS? The Club surely can’t be scared of exposing such details if they’re so innocuous. However, I don’t believe the Club does believe details such as those exposed by Dave Thompson are innocuous. So they hide them.
Likewise, you won’t read fine print details like Dave Thompson’s in the Daily Post & Echo. Why? Because the company is a commercial partner of EFC and there is a veiled threat (always said with a smile, of course) to all the reporters on both papers that they might find the doors to the press box barred if they dig too deeply into the Kirkby subject.
It’s all very well saying that as journalists they should stand on their principles and present a balanced picture regardless of threats but that’s not easy when there are mortgages to pay and petrol is costing £300 a litre.
No, the only place that you ever get to read the full details about Kirkby is here on TW. At least by presenting pieces like Dave Thompson’s it gives both sides of the debate the chance to say "so what?" or "this is a scandal". And it allows us to comment.
You don’t get such a choice or chance on the Club OS which only knows a "thumbs up" option whenever it does decide to add to its Kirkby reportage.
There would be no need for TW to regurgitate essential details of the Kirkby project in the manner that Dave Thompson has if they were already available on the Club OS or in the DP&E.
For then I’d be saying to TW "can’t you tell us something new?".
As it is, there’s only TW which is telling me something new.
Steve Lyth
41 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:42:46
41 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:42:46
2500 ? add 10,000 and that should be the size of the home gate,after realisation kicks in.
chris roberts
42 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:17:55
42 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:17:55
Greg,
You’ve put the case really well and I have to say I agree with you that some of the (critical) articles on the move have been great and that is a role TW has historically done well. I’m saddened if what you say about the local press is true though have to confess that if there was a major story / scandal lurking I’m certain they would report it.
I think what’s happened though is that by allying itself so closely with KEOIC the well balanced / researched critiques of Kirkby by some TW contributors have been swept up in the ranty antics of, shall we say, the less thoughtful amongst the no campaigners and have become lost in a general shouty melee.
The result in my opinion is that TW has lost influence amongst Evertonians which, as I say, I do regret because a reasoned critique of Kirkby is really important and, in my opinion, even more important if/when the move finally goes through will be fan input to improving the new stadia. TW would be the natural place to drive that debate forward but sadly I don’t think it will because I’m sure the club will totally ignore anything coming from TW and the legacy of bitterness that this debate has stirred up will probably prevent a decent discussion of options as well.
To take a relatively trivial example I was / am genuinely excited by the bike to ground notion and the possibilities that offers to do with sustainable transport, reduction of heart disease, cycle routes through the city etc That sort of thing though will only work well if the club is prodded by the fans but if debate on here on cycle issue is anything to go by that probably won’t happen.
You’ve put the case really well and I have to say I agree with you that some of the (critical) articles on the move have been great and that is a role TW has historically done well. I’m saddened if what you say about the local press is true though have to confess that if there was a major story / scandal lurking I’m certain they would report it.
I think what’s happened though is that by allying itself so closely with KEOIC the well balanced / researched critiques of Kirkby by some TW contributors have been swept up in the ranty antics of, shall we say, the less thoughtful amongst the no campaigners and have become lost in a general shouty melee.
The result in my opinion is that TW has lost influence amongst Evertonians which, as I say, I do regret because a reasoned critique of Kirkby is really important and, in my opinion, even more important if/when the move finally goes through will be fan input to improving the new stadia. TW would be the natural place to drive that debate forward but sadly I don’t think it will because I’m sure the club will totally ignore anything coming from TW and the legacy of bitterness that this debate has stirred up will probably prevent a decent discussion of options as well.
To take a relatively trivial example I was / am genuinely excited by the bike to ground notion and the possibilities that offers to do with sustainable transport, reduction of heart disease, cycle routes through the city etc That sort of thing though will only work well if the club is prodded by the fans but if debate on here on cycle issue is anything to go by that probably won’t happen.
Alex May
43 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:27:57
43 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:27:57
Ron Leith - what colour is the sky in your world? We’d all love Everton to compete financially with the ’sky 4’ or even a number of the clubs who finished below us last season.
However, how does Lyness and his projected increase in turnover of £10m per season achieve this? If that is all the move brings in then we will actually be worse off than we are at present. We will have to finance the loans, face greater staffing costs and have committed ourselves to financing the CPZ. We will fall further behind, not get closer.
More yes-voter naivety and ignorance on display.
However, how does Lyness and his projected increase in turnover of £10m per season achieve this? If that is all the move brings in then we will actually be worse off than we are at present. We will have to finance the loans, face greater staffing costs and have committed ourselves to financing the CPZ. We will fall further behind, not get closer.
More yes-voter naivety and ignorance on display.
Andy Callan
44 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:30:49
44 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:30:49
Ha ha ha ha - I dunno why you all raise to it.
This subject is REALLY boring now.
Stop being sooooooo sentimental. Fuck Goodison, it’s old and CANNOT BE REDEVELOPED sufficiently, coz there isn’t enough space.
Good bye.
This subject is REALLY boring now.
Stop being sooooooo sentimental. Fuck Goodison, it’s old and CANNOT BE REDEVELOPED sufficiently, coz there isn’t enough space.
Good bye.
Alex May
45 Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:04:25
45 Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:04:25
Andy Callan - If that’s the case, how come the KD voting document provided 2 redevelopment options for Goodison? Chartered Accounts and Architects were employed before presenting these options.
From your post, I assume, like Wyness, you know better than these people and others like Trevor Skempton who disproved similar claims by Newcastle’s board.
Kenwright also believed it was possible when he donated £3,000 to GFE!
The only reason that Goodison ’cannot’ be redeveloped is because there is no will within the club to do so. Obviously no bonus for Bully Boy.
Yet again, yes-voter ignorance.
From your post, I assume, like Wyness, you know better than these people and others like Trevor Skempton who disproved similar claims by Newcastle’s board.
Kenwright also believed it was possible when he donated £3,000 to GFE!
The only reason that Goodison ’cannot’ be redeveloped is because there is no will within the club to do so. Obviously no bonus for Bully Boy.
Yet again, yes-voter ignorance.
Tony Williams
46 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:08:34
46 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:08:34
Sorry about this but I am going back a few posts, as I have only just caught up.
Dave Wilson, when have I ever insinuated that I want the Kirkby plans pushed through?. I have many times said in my posts that I don’t particularly want to go to Kirkby but I can see some merits in it.
I will not blindly shout out that Kirkby is crap and will be the death of our club etc etc, I can see how Everton believe that it will increase revenue with more seats, extra executive boxes and better hospitality. Simple as that. I don’t believe that Kirkby is the best option but it is seemingly the nest deliverable option given the contraints of our club’s financial position.
Dave Wilson, when have I ever insinuated that I want the Kirkby plans pushed through?. I have many times said in my posts that I don’t particularly want to go to Kirkby but I can see some merits in it.
I will not blindly shout out that Kirkby is crap and will be the death of our club etc etc, I can see how Everton believe that it will increase revenue with more seats, extra executive boxes and better hospitality. Simple as that. I don’t believe that Kirkby is the best option but it is seemingly the nest deliverable option given the contraints of our club’s financial position.
Paul Lally
47 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:21:11
47 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:21:11
Posting on all TW stadium related threads -
Goodison gone - club shop moved -
ALL TRACES OF EVERTON REMOVED FROM CITY OF LIVERPOOL
Yes voters, you have had your ballot, which you keep quoting was fair and a mandate.
( I was entitled to 2 votes in my household and did not receive ballot papers).
Plus you have the EFC marketing machine on your side.So no problem then.
To EVERYONE who believes Kirkby is a very, very bad decision then please find email info.
Send to as many people as you can so that our voice is heard.
Below is the list of e-mails.
I have sent the template from KEIOC ( I simply opened up the template then copied and pasted into an email
Adjust accordingly - http://www.keioc.net/uploads/files/GONW-Template-Letter.doc
blearsh@parliament.uk
contactus@communities.gov.uk
gonwmailbox@gonw.gsi.gov.uk
michael.ashton@gonw.gsi.gov.uk
b.viner@independent.co.uk
boothg@parliament.uk
daveprentice@liverpoolecho.co.uk
neilhodgson@liverpoolecho.co.uk
sport@liverpoolecho.co.uk
sutcliffeg@parliament.uk
tony.livesey@bbc.co.uk
valwoan@liverpoolecho.co.uk
warren.bradley@liverpool.gov.uk
I could not find Andy Burnham?s email but his assistant is - CALVIN.MULLINGS@Culture.gsi.gov.uk
?GET UP, STAND UP ! STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHT ! DON?T GIVE UP THE FIGHT !?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oUgdK3C-2GY
Goodison gone - club shop moved -
ALL TRACES OF EVERTON REMOVED FROM CITY OF LIVERPOOL
Yes voters, you have had your ballot, which you keep quoting was fair and a mandate.
( I was entitled to 2 votes in my household and did not receive ballot papers).
Plus you have the EFC marketing machine on your side.So no problem then.
To EVERYONE who believes Kirkby is a very, very bad decision then please find email info.
Send to as many people as you can so that our voice is heard.
Below is the list of e-mails.
I have sent the template from KEIOC ( I simply opened up the template then copied and pasted into an email
Adjust accordingly - http://www.keioc.net/uploads/files/GONW-Template-Letter.doc
blearsh@parliament.uk
contactus@communities.gov.uk
gonwmailbox@gonw.gsi.gov.uk
michael.ashton@gonw.gsi.gov.uk
b.viner@independent.co.uk
boothg@parliament.uk
daveprentice@liverpoolecho.co.uk
neilhodgson@liverpoolecho.co.uk
sport@liverpoolecho.co.uk
sutcliffeg@parliament.uk
tony.livesey@bbc.co.uk
valwoan@liverpoolecho.co.uk
warren.bradley@liverpool.gov.uk
I could not find Andy Burnham?s email but his assistant is - CALVIN.MULLINGS@Culture.gsi.gov.uk
?GET UP, STAND UP ! STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHT ! DON?T GIVE UP THE FIGHT !?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oUgdK3C-2GY
Damian Wilde
48 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:37:14
48 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:37:14
Dave Wilson,
I think you’re catastrophising a little there Fella. ’Oh no, the club will die, be gone forever’. I disagree. Just because a few bitter people will not attend anymore does not mean the club will suddenly fold.
You talk about ’laughing loudly’ when it fails. It sounds as though you want Everton to go tits up. What sort of fan does that make you?
I think you’re catastrophising a little there Fella. ’Oh no, the club will die, be gone forever’. I disagree. Just because a few bitter people will not attend anymore does not mean the club will suddenly fold.
You talk about ’laughing loudly’ when it fails. It sounds as though you want Everton to go tits up. What sort of fan does that make you?
Damian Wilde
49 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:49:33
49 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:49:33
Chris Briddon,
I too have experienced having posts pulled because I complained there were too many stadium debates. It’s almost like the site has become ’Stadium debate (aka slag Kirkby, KW and BK off and all those who dare to disagree and be egocentric) Web’
I too have experienced having posts pulled because I complained there were too many stadium debates. It’s almost like the site has become ’Stadium debate (aka slag Kirkby, KW and BK off and all those who dare to disagree and be egocentric) Web’
Chris Roberts
50 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:40:51
50 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:40:51
Think my main point has been eloquently made by Paul.
Gerard Madden
51 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:03:43
51 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:03:43
In reply to Greg Murphy - well there is nowt to ?dig? on the old Kirkby front. The Echo/Post have done an outstanding job in their reporting of the move. Articles like Dave Thompson?s ?Deal o the century? on here are simply ?no? rants - nothing more.
Mike Byrne
52 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:30:30
52 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:30:30
Gerard Madden
What fucking planet are you on?
The majority of yes voters I know now have serious doubts about DK following all the major benefits being shown to be based on bullshit and pure downright lies one by one over the last year.
The Liverpool Echo is no more than a parrot for the club - spouting the club line on everything but everything. Journalists are meant to probe and challenge stories but that not that rag.
I can?t make my mind up on you and your posts - are you tryign to wind people up or are you really that stupid?
What fucking planet are you on?
The majority of yes voters I know now have serious doubts about DK following all the major benefits being shown to be based on bullshit and pure downright lies one by one over the last year.
The Liverpool Echo is no more than a parrot for the club - spouting the club line on everything but everything. Journalists are meant to probe and challenge stories but that not that rag.
I can?t make my mind up on you and your posts - are you tryign to wind people up or are you really that stupid?
Paul Gladwell
53 Posted 14/06/2008 at 15:37:41
53 Posted 14/06/2008 at 15:37:41
Gerard, how on earth has the Liverpool Echo done a great job regarding DK?
A multi-million pound business is planning to leave this local paper's city and really business wise it should be 100% against this move a different borough shall gain from whilst the city of Liverpool will lose millions.
A multi-million pound business is planning to leave this local paper's city and really business wise it should be 100% against this move a different borough shall gain from whilst the city of Liverpool will lose millions.
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