The Mail Bag
Just Like The American Election
Comments (41)
I've been living in the States for a number of years and am closely following the Presidential election here. But reading the general public respond to newspaper articles or blog entries is so dispiriting as so much of these responses are made up of personal abuse/insults, ignoring the facts you find inconvenient or acting like there's no grey area in the debate.
It's become kind of like that on ToffeeWeb regarding the Stadium debate. Every thread seems to descend into a slanging match and people shouting at each other. A lot of responses seem to be off the cuff, impulsive and pretty emotional. Nothing wrong with that as an initial reaction, but what about taking some time to calm down and gaining some objectivity before writing in? Does it really need to be that way? And not just because we're all Evertonians, but because ultimately it doesn't really get us any closer to the truth of the debate.
Robert Taylor, Posted 12/06/2008 at 22:52:30
Comments
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Paul Gladwell
2 Posted 13/06/2008 at 07:51:24
2 Posted 13/06/2008 at 07:51:24
There have been a few good discussions on this Kirkby issue but sadly it turns pear shape when someone comes out with blatant wind up shouts like the No voters are a small minority when 8,000 out of 19,000 voted no, this before certain facts to entice yes voters have now been proven to be false, add to the no voters who were not allowed to vote, so its quite clearly a split decision at least , but some people seem to get cheap thrills by windding people up and turning a mellow debate into name calling.
Steve Templeton
3 Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:40:25
3 Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:40:25
A good post Robert but one in vain I’m afraid as proved by Paul’s response.
Well at least you managed to get one sane reply before your thread started the inevitable murky descent into a Kirkby slanging match!
Well at least you managed to get one sane reply before your thread started the inevitable murky descent into a Kirkby slanging match!
Tony Williams
4 Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:54:41
4 Posted 13/06/2008 at 08:54:41
You were doing so well Paul then had to have your little wind up.
I find the better debates on the Kirkby issue are the ones with longer posts.
The emotional "shouters" for either side tend to miss them out as the most vocal ones tend to have a sort of ADD about them and try to find a post of short answers so they can start the wind up posts all over again.
There have been some good debates on here but eventually, as the first post states they usually turn into rants....usually when Madden turns up and the wolves start circling around him.
I find the better debates on the Kirkby issue are the ones with longer posts.
The emotional "shouters" for either side tend to miss them out as the most vocal ones tend to have a sort of ADD about them and try to find a post of short answers so they can start the wind up posts all over again.
There have been some good debates on here but eventually, as the first post states they usually turn into rants....usually when Madden turns up and the wolves start circling around him.
Dan Mckie
5 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:01:31
5 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:01:31
Paul Gladwell, you fail to mention the ’yes’ voters who weren’t allowed to vote! I voted yes based on information that was given and the fact that I would like Everton to play in a new stadium! Kirkby may or may not happen for one reason or another, but ’no’ voters who claim to have known that it was all lies and climbed right on their high horses are talking crap! They voted ’no’ because they didnt want to go to Kirkby, no more no less! If this was in the Liverpool boundary then most people would have voted yes and still be pissed off that things like ’mid range’ and ’no concerts’ stadium had come out!
Phil bellis
6 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:12:35
6 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:12:35
Isn’t that the point, though, Dan? Votes were given on the basis of what we were promised. Like a General Election: if you’re naive enough to vote for a particular party’s manifesto how do you feel and react when they renege on their promises and you find they got in by lying?
At least in politics you can respond and try to repay their duplicity in the next election. In the ground move we won’t get that chance, it’ll presumably be for our lifetimes, we will likely never get an opportunity to reconsider - if it turns out it’s a bad thing for EFC, it’s our children and grandchildren we’ll have to answer to.
At least in politics you can respond and try to repay their duplicity in the next election. In the ground move we won’t get that chance, it’ll presumably be for our lifetimes, we will likely never get an opportunity to reconsider - if it turns out it’s a bad thing for EFC, it’s our children and grandchildren we’ll have to answer to.
Chris Briddon
7 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:36:55
7 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:36:55
Not wishing to offend Phil, but thats quite nieve to believe what a political part says in its manifesto isn’t it?
To most people the Kirkby vote wasn’t about glossy brochures and pretty pictures. It was about what they felt was right for the club.
Too many people on here assume that all Yes voters only voted that way because of what the club told them and the pretty pictures. Well, guess what we can think for ourselves too and having wieght up the arguements and alternatives most decided Yes was the way to go.
Robert - you see, it is actually impossible to post anything on here anymore without it decending into a Kirkby debate.
I for one will be glad when the GONW have made their decision cos whichever way it goes it might hoepfully signal a reduction in arguements and allow us to discuss football for a change
To most people the Kirkby vote wasn’t about glossy brochures and pretty pictures. It was about what they felt was right for the club.
Too many people on here assume that all Yes voters only voted that way because of what the club told them and the pretty pictures. Well, guess what we can think for ourselves too and having wieght up the arguements and alternatives most decided Yes was the way to go.
Robert - you see, it is actually impossible to post anything on here anymore without it decending into a Kirkby debate.
I for one will be glad when the GONW have made their decision cos whichever way it goes it might hoepfully signal a reduction in arguements and allow us to discuss football for a change
Phil Bellis
8 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:49:02
8 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:49:02
Sorry, Chris but surely you are not privy to all the ’private’ dealings within EFC and Tesco? If so, you must have made your decision on the ’facts’ they presented to you and your conviction that Goodison is falling down. What in the weighed-up arguments pursuaded you to go along with the deal? Did you conduct your own cost appraisals, projected financial analyse and commission and evaluate mainly by the hierarchy at EFC?
Phil Bellis
9 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:58:53
9 Posted 13/06/2008 at 09:58:53
bollocks - must get a spekl checkrer!
’Did you conduct your own.....analyses and commission and evaluate the alternatives or where you mainly guided by.....’
’Did you conduct your own.....analyses and commission and evaluate the alternatives or where you mainly guided by.....’
Rupert Coghlan
10 Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:07:31
10 Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:07:31
Here we go again.................
Steve Templeton
11 Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:30:46
11 Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:30:46
What did I say!
Brendan ONeill
12 Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:34:59
12 Posted 13/06/2008 at 10:34:59
With regards to this point about some people not being allowed to vote, surely the club had the right to put in place some criteria as regards eligibility to vote.
If they hadn’t the whole process would have been a complete farce with multiple voting etc.
The whole process which is unique in football terms by the way was supervised by the Electoral Reform Society.
Yes, I agree that the vote was close and it was not an overwhelming majority and maybe for a change like this, there should perhaps need to be a 2/3 majority, but the core support was given its chance to speak and they spoke!
I voted Yes but if the vote had been for No I would have accepted it.
No democratic election is flawless. There are disenfranchised people at every election.
Lets move on
If they hadn’t the whole process would have been a complete farce with multiple voting etc.
The whole process which is unique in football terms by the way was supervised by the Electoral Reform Society.
Yes, I agree that the vote was close and it was not an overwhelming majority and maybe for a change like this, there should perhaps need to be a 2/3 majority, but the core support was given its chance to speak and they spoke!
I voted Yes but if the vote had been for No I would have accepted it.
No democratic election is flawless. There are disenfranchised people at every election.
Lets move on
Gerard Madden
13 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:14:33
13 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:14:33
Good points Mr.Taylor, I came into this debate at its very outset in a calm, relaxed way and I still do debate in that style BUT i’m afraid the mere sight of a post by me long ago became a ’wind-up’ in the eyes of a few on here. For example they consider a fact like there were no protests over an entire season as a ’wind-up’....when it is simply a ’fact’, they consider a fact like only 28% of eligable voters voted ’no’ in the democratic ERS ballot is a wind-up...when it is a ’fact’, they consider the fact Kirkby is only a few miles away in a strong scouse heartland half a mile across an invisible line as a wind-up....when it is simply a ’fact’, they consider a fact like our new ground is 50,000 (Extendable to 60,000) as a wind up when it is a ’fact’. Now if you’re dealing with people who simply mistake basic harmless facts as a ’wind-up’ material then i’d suggest they have a slight problem...I shall turn over a new leaf just for the ’few’ - YES there was protests at every home match last season attended by hundreds/thousands, YES a huge 93.7% voted against the move in the democratic ERS ballot, YES Kirkby is 21.5 miles away in the heart of woolyback land, YES our new ground will only be 28,000 (Extendable to 36,000) - Now will the ’few’ be satisfied with that! ;)
Gavin Ramejkis
14 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:26:11
14 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:26:11
Gerard
50,401 - FACT
60,000 - not a FACT, would require extra planning permission and the limit of 50,401 is dependant on transport which FACT has not been agreed even after three proposals
the public domain documentation when added up shows 32,200 but no one has been able to explain those figures and they are KMBC’s
The majority didn’t vote yes FACT - given a considerable amount didn’t vote at all no one can definitively surmise which way they would have voted yes or no.
If you have valid arguments and not wind ups, your last post was doing well before your cynical ending, then feel free to substantiate your FACTS.
50,401 - FACT
60,000 - not a FACT, would require extra planning permission and the limit of 50,401 is dependant on transport which FACT has not been agreed even after three proposals
the public domain documentation when added up shows 32,200 but no one has been able to explain those figures and they are KMBC’s
The majority didn’t vote yes FACT - given a considerable amount didn’t vote at all no one can definitively surmise which way they would have voted yes or no.
If you have valid arguments and not wind ups, your last post was doing well before your cynical ending, then feel free to substantiate your FACTS.
Brendan ONeill
15 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:50:27
15 Posted 13/06/2008 at 11:50:27
Gavin,
I’m not going to get into the issue of the argument concerning the capacity of the new stadium, as you seem to be extremely well informed.
However, if you take your view regarding the election, then there has never been a majority in any general election since elections began. There will always be abstainers and people not entitled in any election.
The core support were given a chance to express their views. There was a simple majority in favour so that gave the club a mandate to go ahead.
The view expressed often is that the club didn’t give a balanced view but they don’t have to. The club as any government who offer a referendum are entitled to support a view and the club never hid from this.
BK and KW have stewarded the most stable chapter that this club have had in the last 20 years and for that I think they deserve our trust.
In Moyes we trust is a mantra that we often hear. I also have a great deal of trust in BK. The easiest thing that he could have done here is to back down and call it off but he has taken a courageous stance on the stadium issue and backed it to the hilt. He is aware that this has made hime extremely unpopular in some quarters but he has pressed ahead regardless because he knows that we can’t afford not to.
BK and KW will be more aware of the figures and number crunching than any TW contributor.
Lets show a bit of trust and regard for two of the men who have helped turn this club around.
I’m not going to get into the issue of the argument concerning the capacity of the new stadium, as you seem to be extremely well informed.
However, if you take your view regarding the election, then there has never been a majority in any general election since elections began. There will always be abstainers and people not entitled in any election.
The core support were given a chance to express their views. There was a simple majority in favour so that gave the club a mandate to go ahead.
The view expressed often is that the club didn’t give a balanced view but they don’t have to. The club as any government who offer a referendum are entitled to support a view and the club never hid from this.
BK and KW have stewarded the most stable chapter that this club have had in the last 20 years and for that I think they deserve our trust.
In Moyes we trust is a mantra that we often hear. I also have a great deal of trust in BK. The easiest thing that he could have done here is to back down and call it off but he has taken a courageous stance on the stadium issue and backed it to the hilt. He is aware that this has made hime extremely unpopular in some quarters but he has pressed ahead regardless because he knows that we can’t afford not to.
BK and KW will be more aware of the figures and number crunching than any TW contributor.
Lets show a bit of trust and regard for two of the men who have helped turn this club around.
Gavin Ramejkis
16 Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:10:37
16 Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:10:37
Brendan thanks for your reply, the capacities listed are those all in the public domain and drawn from KMBC’s public domain documentation. We’ll agree to disagree I’m afraid on BK and KW, BK has been a member of the board for years and the clubs stability certainly income have been in the majority from the deal with Sky television and not new investors who with the sole introduction of Mr Planet Hollywood just saw a transfer of shares and capital between the former holder of the shares and himself and guarantor of a loan for Yakubu. KW’s employment on four times the salary of his predecessor has seen the club’s income with the sole exception of the sale of Wayne Rooney which again was not his to make but the board make successive year on year losses. I agree with you on DM being the one "management" member worth praise.
David Rodaway
17 Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:03:41
17 Posted 13/06/2008 at 12:03:41
The so call stadium debate doesn’t really exist anymore. The club has a ballot and like it or not, think its fair or not, was it fixed or not, the result was a yes.
Now its up to the club, Tesco and KBC to push it through and that is the issue. It’s not going to get planning permission due to objections from the local community, L’pool CC, Sefton MBC and Grovosnor.
Then comes the next debate, what do we do next? The Wirral anyone?
Now its up to the club, Tesco and KBC to push it through and that is the issue. It’s not going to get planning permission due to objections from the local community, L’pool CC, Sefton MBC and Grovosnor.
Then comes the next debate, what do we do next? The Wirral anyone?
Dave
18 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:05:50
18 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:05:50
Maybe people voted yes because they realised that staying at Goodison would not help the club in breaking the Sky 4 stranglehold. Maybe they voted yes to allow the club to grow and not have the embarrassing number of obstructed view tickets they have and therefore encourage people to come the game with their kids, therefore providing more revenuw to help the club buy more/better players.
Or maybe they did it because of a couple of glossy pictures and Alan Stubbs saying we should go.
As for people voting, it was Evertonia members and season ticket holders. i.e. people who regularly put money into the clubs coffers and are entitled to a say. Would you rather anyone who had been to a game in the last 15 years got a vote? The cut-off HAD to be somewhere.
Or maybe they did it because of a couple of glossy pictures and Alan Stubbs saying we should go.
As for people voting, it was Evertonia members and season ticket holders. i.e. people who regularly put money into the clubs coffers and are entitled to a say. Would you rather anyone who had been to a game in the last 15 years got a vote? The cut-off HAD to be somewhere.
Paul OHanlon
19 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:23:16
19 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:23:16
I think Steve Temp should be barred for being a smart arse ;)
Paul Lally
20 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:34:17
20 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:34:17
Posting on all TW stadium related threads -
Goodison gone - club shop moved -
ALL TRACES OF EVERTON REMOVED FROM CITY OF LIVERPOOL
Yes voters, you have had your ballot, which you keep quoting was fair and a mandate.
( I was entitled to 2 votes in my household and did not receive ballot papers).
Plus you have the EFC marketing machine on your side.So no problem then.
To EVERYONE who believes Kirkby is a very, very bad decision then please find email info.
Send to as many people as you can so that our voice is heard.
Below is the list of e-mails.
I have sent the template from KEIOC ( I simply opened up the template then copied and pasted into an email)
http://www.keioc.net/uploads/files/GONW-Template-Letter.doc
blearsh@parliament.uk
contactus@communities.gov.uk
gonwmailbox@gonw.gsi.gov.uk
michael.ashton@gonw.gsi.gov.uk
b.viner@independent.co.uk
boothg@parliament.uk
daveprentice@liverpoolecho.co.uk
neilhodgson@liverpoolecho.co.uk
sport@liverpoolecho.co.uk
sutcliffeg@parliament.uk
tony.livesey@bbc.co.uk
valwoan@liverpoolecho.co.uk
warren.bradley@liverpool.gov.uk
I could not find Andy Burnham?s email but his assistant is - CALVIN.MULLINGS@Culture.gsi.gov.uk
?GET UP, STAND UP ! STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHT ! DON?T GIVE UP THE FIGHT !?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oUgdK3C-2GY
Goodison gone - club shop moved -
ALL TRACES OF EVERTON REMOVED FROM CITY OF LIVERPOOL
Yes voters, you have had your ballot, which you keep quoting was fair and a mandate.
( I was entitled to 2 votes in my household and did not receive ballot papers).
Plus you have the EFC marketing machine on your side.So no problem then.
To EVERYONE who believes Kirkby is a very, very bad decision then please find email info.
Send to as many people as you can so that our voice is heard.
Below is the list of e-mails.
I have sent the template from KEIOC ( I simply opened up the template then copied and pasted into an email)
http://www.keioc.net/uploads/files/GONW-Template-Letter.doc
blearsh@parliament.uk
contactus@communities.gov.uk
gonwmailbox@gonw.gsi.gov.uk
michael.ashton@gonw.gsi.gov.uk
b.viner@independent.co.uk
boothg@parliament.uk
daveprentice@liverpoolecho.co.uk
neilhodgson@liverpoolecho.co.uk
sport@liverpoolecho.co.uk
sutcliffeg@parliament.uk
tony.livesey@bbc.co.uk
valwoan@liverpoolecho.co.uk
warren.bradley@liverpool.gov.uk
I could not find Andy Burnham?s email but his assistant is - CALVIN.MULLINGS@Culture.gsi.gov.uk
?GET UP, STAND UP ! STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHT ! DON?T GIVE UP THE FIGHT !?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oUgdK3C-2GY
Gerard Madden
21 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:42:45
21 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:42:45
I remain supremely confident it wont get called-in because the ’ace cards’ held by the applicants are that Kirkby is in dire need of regeneration with all its poverty and worklessness and the fact you find those Kirkby wards usually at or near the bottom of the economic league tables locally, regionally and nationally. The fact it is a Labour stronghold that has thumped it through by 20-1 and it will be a Labour Government deciding whether to back (or not!) one of its own deprived heartlands is another good thing. I remain supremely optimistic because Labour Knowsley council and the Labour Govt are well within their rights to conclude in their ongoing discussions that "economic and regeneration" considerations outweigh the aspects of "Planning and Town Centre" considerations the plans dont fully comply with.
Phil Hamer
22 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:49:34
22 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:49:34
Nice post, but the only reason every thread descends into a Kirkby slanging match is because its such a terrible idea.
Its as simple as that.
Its as simple as that.
Steve Templeton
23 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:54:35
23 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:54:35
I heard that O’Hanlon!
Damian Wilde
24 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:54:36
24 Posted 13/06/2008 at 13:54:36
If you had a season ticket you would have got a vote. Will people stop harping on about how it wasn’t a majority because certain people didn’t get a vote. If you wanted a vote, maybe you should have put your time, money and energy into place long before and got a season ticket.
Paul Lally
25 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:12:32
25 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:12:32
@Damian Wilde
As previously stated on numerous occasions my household was entitled to 2 votes because of our season tickets.
We did not receive ballot papers.
Complained to no avail.
But as said above the vote has happened so yes voters should not have a problem with the no voters trying to have their voices heard.
What are you worried about ?
You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time,BUT NOT ALL OF THE POEPLE ALL OF THE TIME.
As previously stated on numerous occasions my household was entitled to 2 votes because of our season tickets.
We did not receive ballot papers.
Complained to no avail.
But as said above the vote has happened so yes voters should not have a problem with the no voters trying to have their voices heard.
What are you worried about ?
You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time,BUT NOT ALL OF THE POEPLE ALL OF THE TIME.
Roy Coyne
26 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:15:55
26 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:15:55
Damian, are you a wind up or are you really a complete pratt I have a season ticket, that's no problem ? most people can afford ONE. But what about having to buy two, three or even more? Or do you send the kids in a different section to you? So reading your logic the people bringing in the future Everton fans are not worth a vote while an old codger like me who has a ticket is??? We all deserved a vote or alternately Bill should have made the decision himself. But taking responsibility is not what he does best.
EJ Ruane
27 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:42:11
27 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:42:11
I remain ’supremely confident’ that Lacky Madden (the real Everton supporter who is nothing to do with Tesco HONEST!) is dispatched to Walton Rd everyday for a Bargain Bucket for the man with a medicine-ball for a head.
Chris Briddon
28 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:36:23
28 Posted 13/06/2008 at 15:36:23
So Roy, how would you suggest they decided who could vote.
Maybe everyone who bought a ticket in the last year. Ok that means all those Liverpool supporters who buy Derby tickets get to vote then.
Season Ticket holders was the only fair way to ensure that they only got people who really cared about the result.
I realise this means some people missed out but if you can think of a fairer way, then let me know.
Maybe everyone who bought a ticket in the last year. Ok that means all those Liverpool supporters who buy Derby tickets get to vote then.
Season Ticket holders was the only fair way to ensure that they only got people who really cared about the result.
I realise this means some people missed out but if you can think of a fairer way, then let me know.
Barry Lightfoot
29 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:02:46
29 Posted 13/06/2008 at 14:02:46
Does anyone know who Everton will be borrowing money from for the Kirkby Stadium as I was just wondering... now Tesco do loans, will they be offering the cash at favourable terms to themselves and therefore recovering any outlay in healthily large repayments from Everton? To paraphrase Terry, it would be a win win win win for Tesco.
Tony Williams
30 Posted 13/06/2008 at 17:24:44
30 Posted 13/06/2008 at 17:24:44
Paul Lally, you seem to use the "I never got a ballot sheet" quote a lot.
Yes it was a pigs ear system when sending them out, like with the tickets but are you suggesting that all the people who didn’t get voting slips would have been No’s? If so how on earth were Everton supposed to distinguish between a Yes and No voter from a name on a list?
It’s shitty that you didn’t get you balot sheet but it doesn’t mean that it would have made a huge difference to the ballot, as imagine how many Yes voters didn’t get them either.
Yes it was a pigs ear system when sending them out, like with the tickets but are you suggesting that all the people who didn’t get voting slips would have been No’s? If so how on earth were Everton supposed to distinguish between a Yes and No voter from a name on a list?
It’s shitty that you didn’t get you balot sheet but it doesn’t mean that it would have made a huge difference to the ballot, as imagine how many Yes voters didn’t get them either.
Adam Cunliffe
31 Posted 13/06/2008 at 17:51:39
31 Posted 13/06/2008 at 17:51:39
Roy,
That?s a fantastic point. A season ticket for both me my Dad and my brother is best part of £1500. Which is one hell of a lot of money so it?s not always possible for people with families to become season ticket holders.
We should still be able to voice our opinion. Me and my brother are anti-Kirkby but yet my Dad who?s been everywhere is for it. We're going to find out if it was worth it but yet we we aren?t given a chance to say we're against it. Even if we had a season ticket I?m not so sure we would've been given a vote anyway because we?re both under 16 (me and my brother).
That?s a fantastic point. A season ticket for both me my Dad and my brother is best part of £1500. Which is one hell of a lot of money so it?s not always possible for people with families to become season ticket holders.
We should still be able to voice our opinion. Me and my brother are anti-Kirkby but yet my Dad who?s been everywhere is for it. We're going to find out if it was worth it but yet we we aren?t given a chance to say we're against it. Even if we had a season ticket I?m not so sure we would've been given a vote anyway because we?re both under 16 (me and my brother).
Adam Cunliffe
32 Posted 13/06/2008 at 17:57:39
32 Posted 13/06/2008 at 17:57:39
Chris,
Are you suggesting that because I don’t have a season ticket I don’t care as much as you and other season ticket holders?
I’m sure there’s many non-season ticket holders who would of voted yes and they would also care about the result.
You bollock No voters for saying that Evertonians who voted yes are not true Evertonians but yet you say that non-season ticket holders couldn’t give a stuff about the result.
Are you suggesting that because I don’t have a season ticket I don’t care as much as you and other season ticket holders?
I’m sure there’s many non-season ticket holders who would of voted yes and they would also care about the result.
You bollock No voters for saying that Evertonians who voted yes are not true Evertonians but yet you say that non-season ticket holders couldn’t give a stuff about the result.
Mike Mclean
33 Posted 13/06/2008 at 18:27:21
33 Posted 13/06/2008 at 18:27:21
When it comes to the stadium debate, I?m reminded of an old question ... "What IS truth".
Tony Williams
34 Posted 13/06/2008 at 18:54:06
34 Posted 13/06/2008 at 18:54:06
I agree with Adam on this. One of my mates used to buy tickets for the match as he wasn’t sure what match days he would miss through work. he ended up paying more than the rest of us in the end.
I agree that you cannot locate these kind of fans and you certainly can’t say that just because they never bought a season ticket they don’t matter. Not a very good post there Damian
I agree that you cannot locate these kind of fans and you certainly can’t say that just because they never bought a season ticket they don’t matter. Not a very good post there Damian
Jim Lloyd
35 Posted 13/06/2008 at 21:37:12
35 Posted 13/06/2008 at 21:37:12
Well Robert, I think that, just like in the Presidential Election, or any other debate about dearly held beliefs, emotions can run high. We?re no different to anyone else, as I?ve seen fights break out in the ground over a player (many times!!)
I agree that we should treat each and everyone with respect but again, we all want to make our points and can get exasperated when we can?t. We can make a point in good faith and see it rammed back at us as inconsequential, lies or another derogatory response. No excuses but its dear to the hearts of us all and in all battles, both sides think they are right and have God on their side.
I?ll try now and present my argument/fear/assessment of why I voted No and why I see the move as a disaster.
I don?t believe Keith Wyness or Bill Kenwright or the club, were completely open with us when they decided to put the move to the vote. For example, we were told that there was no plan B. We were told by Bill Kenwright, that as much as he loved Goodison and didn?t want to be the one to leave it, there was no alternative (sounds like Maggie Thatcher). Yet we have a report which shows that Goodison could be redeveloped into a 55,000 seater. As far as I know, the reports findings have not been challenged. A report by HOK states that a 55,000 seater stadium could be built at the far end of Great Homer Street (Right in the heart of Everton); the club have dismissed this but not said in any detail, why. There was evidently an oppportunity (no more than that) for us to build a stadium in Walton Hall Park; we heard no mention of this before the vote.
I think that the importance of Everton staying in this city for our club is above all other considerations. That's just me, of course, but if Everton move out of the city, then there will be no more "Blue half of the city" comments, no city derbies. There will be one team in Liverpool... and it won?t be us.
So the reason I still oppose this move is because I don?t believe the board are prepared to take the opportunities available to stay in our city.
We have our rivals just over the park who are laughing their socks off at us. We have a lot of Blues, me included, who feel so strongly about this situation, that we will not be going to watch our club if/when it moves to Kirkby. We have a lot of blues who take the opposite view and look at us as a small group of bitter blues who can?t accept the democratic decision.
Where we differ from the Presidential Elections in America is, they are only looking for the leader of the Western World, whereas we are talking EVERTON!!
Ste Kenny
36 Posted 14/06/2008 at 08:28:37
36 Posted 14/06/2008 at 08:28:37
What a JOKE likening this to the American presidential elections... we're far more important!!!!!!!!
Paul Gladwell
37 Posted 14/06/2008 at 09:08:59
37 Posted 14/06/2008 at 09:08:59
To be totally honest I never meant to turn it into a Kirkby arguement and was genuine in what I said, I suppose sometimes before posting you have to check and check again as your wording can be taken differently than how you mean it to be taken.
Jimmy Fearns
38 Posted 14/06/2008 at 13:01:30
38 Posted 14/06/2008 at 13:01:30
So Madden, you admit that the Kirkby experience will be one that is surrounded by poverty and worklessness. Much better then than the County Road experience you constantly decry?
Gavin Ramejkis
39 Posted 14/06/2008 at 18:17:36
39 Posted 14/06/2008 at 18:17:36
Jimmy you can’t write off the two thousand sad souls that will be swiping cheap bar codes at check outs and stacking shelves or pushing trolleys across the car park - fucking joke the whole thing stinks, employment opportunities my arse.
Rob Penlington
40 Posted 14/06/2008 at 21:44:43
40 Posted 14/06/2008 at 21:44:43
E J Ruane
I hope for your sake that you’re not connected in any way,shape or form to a group of Japanese dentists.
I hope for your sake that you’re not connected in any way,shape or form to a group of Japanese dentists.
EJ Ruane
41 Posted 15/06/2008 at 13:34:09
41 Posted 15/06/2008 at 13:34:09
Rob, I think for the Japanese Dentist to receive another threatening legal letter, one would have to be more specific about a certain name.
That said, I personally would be prepared to pay a stiff fine, if it meant getting to see an angry..um..’Mr Beef’ in court saying "When he says the man with the medicine ball head , he means me!!"
That said, I personally would be prepared to pay a stiff fine, if it meant getting to see an angry..um..’Mr Beef’ in court saying "When he says the man with the medicine ball head , he means me!!"
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1 Posted 13/06/2008 at 07:41:22
P.S Barck Obama to win the Presidency!