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I just want to guage people's opinion's regarding the Euro 2008 finals at the moment. I for one think they have been one of the better tournament's i have seen, probably since the World Cup in Spain in '82 I think. Great tournaments are all about great matches and already there has been some great games.

My question is as Evertonians, have we really missed England in these Championships? Of course if England are in the finals we all sit around the big screen blues and reds, but do we really care? What do england mean to you? I remember a couple of year's ago, a survey was done nationally, the question asked was 'if you had a choice of England winning the World Cup or your team winning the League what would you pick' it was 90 odd % from London and the south picked England, whereas here it was the opposite.....

England mean nothing to me, this tournament has backed this up. COYB
Mick Gillian, Old Roan     Posted 15/06/2008 at 02:03:35

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Arthur Jones
1   Posted 15/06/2008 at 06:02:20

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I’m not that much of a national team enthusiast , in fact I have a bit of a fear when our players are picked ’cos I’d hate it if Lescott , for example was out long term with an injury sustained playing for England and I have that dread of one of our players being in the spotlight and Manure or Chelski turn up with the big cheque book . . As far as this years Euro’s , I’ve enjoyed it much more than I expected to , Holland and Croatia have been a great surprise , but even some of the so-called " bad teams " , especially Austria and Sweden have looked good at times . One thing that strikes me is how much time and space some of the players have had , It makes the games better as a spectacle but also makes me wonder if some of the Flair players would have what it takes in the premiership ? I’m thinking of ’ failures ’ like Shevtenko , Morientes and Rebrov .
Derek Thomas
2   Posted 15/06/2008 at 06:18:37

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Patriotism might be the last refuge of the scoundrel, but only when used for nefarious purposes.

But the opposite, Multiculturalism, which is what some, or so it seems to me. would have us embrace, seems to mean we take on board all cultures EXCEPT our own, not INCLUDING our own.

In EURO 2008 many of the participants, some more than others, are all on the multicultural Euro treaty of Lisbon band wagon. But that doesn’t seem to stop the Swedes and the Dutch filling their end of the ground with a sea of yellow or orange.

So it is OK to love your Country, or at least it’s football team in this modern touchy feely metro sexual age.

Back to Club Vs Counrty.

The Prem and major international tournaments NEVER overlap.

So where’s the problem.

Be proud of you Club, but fuck the PC mob, the too pompous to cheer for you Country.

Just as there only 2 sorts ( at club level ) Evertonians and the rest.... On the international scene the world can be divided into 2



I know the detractors will (maybe, who cares, like I actually give a shit ) call me an old fogie etc etc

But there was never, ever, a better decade to young, Evertonian and English than the 60’s and 1966 in particular.
Arthur Jones
3   Posted 15/06/2008 at 07:04:35

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Derek, I fully understand your sentiments on this but I am more inclined to think that When Samuel Johnson made your quote if somebody earned £120,000 / week they could afford to be patriotic. When one of our greatest ever players, Alan Ball, World cup winner, best player on the pitch in many eyes, has to resort to selling his World Cup Winners medal to ensure a bit of stability for his family then you have to look at that situation. Bally was as patriotic as they come and him and the rest of the team from that day should never have had to resort to THAT. A massive pension fund should have been established years ago for those guys, not having to Auction part of their (and our) heritage . But that?s what being patriotic does for you!
Kevin Sparke
4   Posted 15/06/2008 at 08:09:57

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My problem with supporting England is I feel more kinship with lads from Dublin, Glasgow and Cardiff than I ever do with Southerners... and England to me has connotations of Southern dickheads booing Trevor Steven, Gary Stephens and Peter Reid at Wembly 1986

I want England to win but it doesn?t hurt me if they lose.

When Everton lose it?s like a punch in the belly.

Peter Eastoe
5   Posted 15/06/2008 at 09:34:45

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I have no interest in the Euros and haven?t watched a game. After the season just gone I?m footballed out!
There?s too much football on TV now and I never thought I?d say it but I?ve had enough and need a break from screaming commentators and studio experts.

Gavin Harris
6   Posted 15/06/2008 at 10:00:49

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The English are the most unpatriotic people on the planet and it's so sad because it wasn?t always the case. I am a Welshman travelling from Oz and you can see it a mile away. The Irish, Aussies, Welsh, Scots, Americans, Dutch, everyone knows their national day, the lyrics to their anthem, turn out to welcome their troops back (only 93 managed to welcome home troops in London last year) and support their team in the finals. Here we have English guys stating how they don?t care what happens about their country. Wouldn?t happen elsewhere in the world, thats for sure. Sort it, folks, or England will lose its soul completely.
Ste Lewis
7   Posted 15/06/2008 at 10:54:36

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England isn’t ’English’ anymore - souls gone already Gav. As the older generation around my estate die out they are inevitably replaced by sunken faced crack zombies. This country is going to the dogs - starting with the footie team! I have missed going to the pub (to watch England with mates) at the Euro’s but thats about it. The technique of some of the teams there puts us to shame anyhow. Cant wait for the new season to start - fixtures tomorrow!
Rich Nuwart
8   Posted 15/06/2008 at 11:02:32

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Great tournament, better for not having England there and all the media circus that ensues. Refreshing just to sit back and watch a festival of football with no distractions. Holland?s performance against France is the best international performance I have seen from a single team for some considerable time.
Gavin Ramejkis
9   Posted 15/06/2008 at 11:05:01

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I couldn’t give a monkey’s what happens to Engerland and it’s minority of scrote fans that put them to shame every tournament or hear gobshites like Stevie Me claiming "this is the year" etc etc to piss myself laughing as they start each tournament over cautiously then get knocked out by any other team in a footballing lesson then to hear other gobshites like John Motson and his ilk fawn over them and claim bad luck, bad referees and never what happens on the majority of occasions; they are shite, overpaid and up themselves with no real fight in them, it’s a shame the Scotland team didn’t make it as at least they had a good crack at qualifying.
phil mcracken
10   Posted 15/06/2008 at 11:23:12

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The problem re; the north south divide is Wembley is in London. Fair enough the old Wembley was there but that had been there for 100 years or whatever, the FA had a golden opportunity to put the new home of football in the middle of the country near the m1 somewhere with lots of parking, could probably have halved the build cost, and given the whole country a chance to see an england game. Instead its in London, so unless you have alot of expendable income you don’t go unless your from London, or at the least down south. Might aswell call them London fc. Thats why the North is losing interest its just another team on telly.
Paul Niklas
11   Posted 15/06/2008 at 12:05:33

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Best thing that could have happened not qualifying.

Nice summer break, none of our players in the shop window, no injuries, and ne not having to pretend I like anyone from any other club because they are an England player.

Club first, I hope we never qualify again, unless We Everton have at least 6 players in the first team.

Not interested at all in watching it, its another version of the eurovision song contest- Shit simple as that.

Its what the Europeans want any way.

So good luck to them.

Come on August lets get back to what really matters.
Gavin Ramejkis
12   Posted 15/06/2008 at 12:07:30

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Phil you hit the nail on the head with many other arguments I have about Engerland which only exists in London and the rest of the country living up north in wattle and daub huts. They got the millenium everything, they get the olympics everything and the rest of us "up north of Watford" get to cough up our hard earned to pay for it; dome, overpriced ferris wheel, tarted up train station for Cockneys and tourists to have a jolly jaunt to France for the weekend and not a penny spent north of Watford, oh we might get token commonwealth games in Manchester which is tiny in comparison to an Olympics but when was the last time Engerland put itself forward for the Olympics, World Cup etc and all it was ever about was London making more fucking money for London? The world only thinks Engerland is about London thanks to the insular way it’s ran.
EJ Ruane
13   Posted 15/06/2008 at 11:56:48

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I simply don’t get ’patriotism’ or to be more precise PRIDE in simply having being born on a particular piece of land.

I mean, we (ourselves) don’t choose where that land is, it’s complete fluke, so...why the pride?

We take pride in passing an exam if WE did it.

We don’t take pride in a total stranger passing an exam

I can understand "I’m pleased I was born in.." or "I’m relieved I wasn’t born in..." but not "Ahm reet prahhhd t’ be Inglish laaahk"

My guess as to why patriotic ’pride; appeals so much, is because if you really get into it, it can fill a huge gap in otherwise empty, wasted, repetitive existence.

My own theory/belief is that it appeals to the poorest and the wealthiest.

The poorest housing estates are the places that (it seems to me) are first to drag out the cross of St George (in honour of that real saint, who really killed a REAL dragon) for any ’event’ that his an ’Ingurlund’ team involved.

And your average genuine toff who sees all the ’old values’ being eroded (ie: like not being able to send a 6 year old kid up one’s chimney for a farthing anymore etc) seem to cling to the flag like Vinnie Jones to Gazza’s plums.

I’ve enjoyed Holland’s performances so far.

It’s as though they said "let’s knock it about, play some good stuff and if we win, we win - if we don’t, well...we’re all still incredibly rich and have fantastic lives"

Paul Cook
14   Posted 15/06/2008 at 13:03:43

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Fantastic post, EJ Ruane. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Adam Doyle
15   Posted 15/06/2008 at 13:49:08

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I’m patriotic, proud to be both English and British.
I think English people are so much aligned to their respective club teams that it makes it very hard to cheer on a player from a rival. I don’t celebrate when Rooney scores (unless it was the 94th minute in the World Cup final, then I might). I could tolerate Gerrard scoring, because even though he’s a kopite and all, he’s still a bloody brilliant player. It’s just all his diving and moaning and his "loyalty" that costs over £100,000 a week.

Anyway, back to your point, I think the Euros are definitely better because England aren’t in them. As a neutral, its easier to enjoy whatever game.
Albert Dock
16   Posted 15/06/2008 at 14:19:38

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I think it has been a bit of fresh air to see sides that actually enjoy having the ball and not geeting shot of it like it was a Gingsters pie with e-coli.

Mind you I have missed the WAGs and their shopping for even bigger sunglasses.

What is Cappello’s policy towards them? I hope he tells them to stay at home and check out Matalan and Poundstretchers.

Jay Harris
17   Posted 15/06/2008 at 14:21:27

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I think success has a lot to do with it.
When we won the world cup we all wanted to be part of it.

When our sportsmen win things it makes you want to say you’re English.

When the Falklands war broke out everyone wanted a union Jack.

But unfortunately apart from Lewis Hamilton we’ve had nothing to unite us behind the flag in recent times.

English sport is at an all time low,the government has brought a new divisive culture into the country and that’s why we dont give a toss about the nation.
Dave Wilson
18   Posted 15/06/2008 at 14:06:25

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I understand the point your making, 93 welcoming our troops home makes very uncomfortable reading indeed
I feel absolutely certain that we all feel far greater pride in the lads putting their knecks on the line so we can sleep safe in our beds, than we could ever feel in some overpaid overrated gobshite making millions because he plays football for England

Personally I dont even want our players selected for England, I still feel sick that Vaughanys problems started when on international duty,

I think we our patriotic, but that patriotic pride will never extend to an England team that has a Swede or an Italian getting paid millions to manage a group of overrated spoilt brats who quite clearly dont give a shit

That said, EJ’s post was funny as fuck
Brian Waring
19   Posted 15/06/2008 at 14:56:41

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Got talking to a lad who said he follows England all over the place. I was saying that I couldn’t give 2 fucks about England, he then comes out with all the patriotic shite, and that I’m a twat for not caring. He then comes out out with the dumbest thing of all, he says " I have been watching the euros and havn’t been that impressed at all " he then says " If we (England) would have got there, we would have walked it " I pointed out the they were not even good enough to qualify, never mind win it. He then shows how much of a tit he really was by saying " But if we were there we would have pissed it "

Jamie Armstrong
20   Posted 15/06/2008 at 16:00:24

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Was watching the England v Croatia game in November and although our Joleon was playing. I turned to my dad and we both laughed at each other. Don’t get me wrong i’m a little disappointed england aren’t part of these championships, but it doesn’t really matter. I said to my dad at the time and we said if we had to chose us finishing in europe and england not qualifying then we would pick that every time. Cus it doesn’t impact on our life as with the blues should they win lose or draw it matters and our lives aren’t the same. With england we’re disappointed for like a day but with the blues losing really does matter more!
Ben Brown
21   Posted 15/06/2008 at 15:50:59

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I always support English, even British players of any sport. I’ll back Andy Murray in the tennis, for example. Likewise I take particular interest in people from where I grew up, or where I live now, or whatever.

The point is that it’s not being proud of having been born on some arbitrary bit of land, it’s being proud of the people that were born in the same place as you. You have something in common with them and you should be able to identify with them because of it. Maybe that’s the problem with the England team at the moment; it’s very hard to identify with a lot of them. Personally I still do though, because they’re all English and I think that means something. There are still parts of culture that extend all around the country and that are particular to OUR country.

I would have much preferred to have England in the competition, but I’ve watched most of it so far anyway.
John Jones
22   Posted 15/06/2008 at 16:15:54

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Ben Brown,

Isn’t Murray Scottish - born in Glasgow?

And why would people not be able to identify with the English football team if you can support a Scottish tennis player?

EJ Ruane’s post - brilliant ;).
EJ Ruane
23   Posted 15/06/2008 at 16:14:09

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"Proud of the people born in the same..."

Sorry, Ben but simply don’t buy into that.

I mean you say..

"The point is that it?s not being proud of having been born on some arbitrary bit of land, it?s being proud of the people that were born in the same place as you. You have something in common with them and you should be able to identify with them because of it"

(I know my next point will seem deliberately facetious but I assure you it is not meant to be - merely an exaggeration to illustrate a point).

Something in common?

I have something in common with "Stevie G lar" - we both have heads.

If you apply that logic, where does it begin and end?

I could argue I have more in common with a 49 year old Dinka tribesman, than an Englishman under 20, just because of our common age (his use of English would certainly be easier for me to understand).

See what I mean.

I think it makes more sense to be proud of what you achieve, or your kids, your family.

I don’t know whether it was G.B Shaw or Oscar Wilde who described patriotism as being the ’last refuge of scoundrel’ but I’m with him.

And certainly, most of what I’ve seen (and heard of) over the years, that has been perpetrated in the name of ’Patriotism’ makes me less, rather than more inclined to get teary-eyed at the waving of flags and playing of anthems.

By the way, I think all nations are guilty, not just England.

Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
24   Posted 15/06/2008 at 16:43:23

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Have to say I’m bemused by people making up their mind before a ball is kicked that it’ll be shit because it’s the Euros. I’ve watched all but two games so far in glorious high definition and I have to say it’s been really enjoyable.

If you love the game, there’s a lot to admire and while it would be nice if England were there, it’s actually kind of stress free to sit back and watch the Continent’s best go at it with some excellent football and, where it hasn’t been top-notch quality, excitement. The circus around the England team may affect the enjoyment of supporting our national team but don’t let that color your desire to watch the other teams.
Garry Corgan
25   Posted 15/06/2008 at 17:43:01

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I guess I’m in the 10% minority then. I love Everton and would give my right arm to see them win the Premiership but the way I see it, and this is only my opinion, I was BORN English and chose to be an Evertonian. As such my love for my country, even with all its faults, outweighs my love for Everton. I’m gutted England aren’t at Euro 2008.

Having said that, it is difficult to want the likes of Steven Gerrard and Wayne Rooney to do well but I’m fairly happy as long as they do it in an England shirt. I would also guess that many people’s indifference to England is actually towards the overpayed, overhyped, underdelivering players rather than the three lions and patriotism. And no, I’m not a southerner. Born and raised within eight miles of Goodison.
Ben Brown
26   Posted 15/06/2008 at 18:18:42

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John, that was my point about Murray. I can identify with him and I can identify with the England team. I was trying to guess why people wouldn’t want to support the England team.

EJ, I agree with much of what you say. Probably you would associate with someone of a similar age, even a tribesman. And yeah, you’re part of the human race and have a head. Both your examples are ways of placing yourself in a category. You could follow things on those terms if you wanted to. I’d say though that geographical location and thus nations are more suitable.

I’m just trying to show that there is a reason people feel patriotic. Where we live and grow up (I mean countries, not towns/cities) has a large effect on the kinds of people we are. We all share the same law, roughly the same environment, the same history, language and so on. In a nutshell, the same culture. All that makes me at least feel that I’m somehow tied to other people that share these things; we’re all English. I would far more readily approach an English player than a foreign player. Unless of course it was Mikel or someone, which kinda proves my point really.

Re: Kids, family, achievements. Definitely agree with you. Not a lot of people put their country before their family. When it comes to the crunch though, I’m thinking of military people here, I’d guess fighting for your country and your family becomes almost the same thing (I’m not a soldier, sorry if I’m off the mark with this).
Roy Coyne
27   Posted 15/06/2008 at 19:22:17

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When I was younger I used to go to all the matches in the England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland series and found most other England supporters where fine. This was of course before all the violence and as much as I support England, Everton always come first. I have enjoyed this Euro as the football has been good but I am disappointed England failed to qualify.
Tony Finn
28   Posted 15/06/2008 at 23:09:21

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Derek Thomas, its not that I (or others, I suspect)dont want to care about England, its just that when I watch them it doesn't seem to matter either way, despite it being "right" to support my country. On the contrary, despite me thinking a lot of the lucky sods who?ve played for EFC over the years clearly don't give a shit, I can't help it but throw myself into cheering them on even when I know they dont deserve it!! it is this almost involuntary reaction that Sky and the Premier League prey on us when enforcing ticket price hikes, silly kick-off times etc. they and we boh know it stnks, but its an addiction they know we can't give up!
Alexander Marsh
29   Posted 16/06/2008 at 00:18:38

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As a Canadian of Greek and English descent, I always hope for the best when it comes to my three national teams (although Canada will probably not qualify for the World Cup for many, many years). However, when I watch an Everton game, I?m anxious and excited on a whole other, much higher level when compared to international competitions. But as a football enthusiast, I have greatly enjoyed this year?s Euros so far, even when Greece fails miserably and England does not even qualify! I bet on the Netherlands to win to the whole thing and I even put a bet on the Turks so hopefully I can make a bit of cash too!
Tommy Rice
30   Posted 16/06/2008 at 00:21:21

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I’m not a big England fan, I don’t really feel I can relate to any of the players in pure footballing terms because the England team plays boring, static football and although in my time watching Everton (mid nineties onwards) we’ve been guilty of a bit of alehouse style hoofball its still more interesting than passing a ball and admiring it rather than making a run (Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham etc). I thought it was a good thing that we didn’t make it to the Euros because I was expecting a change - basically for a new manager to come in and drop the dross that haven’t put in a shift for England in years, but what do we do? Drop the goalie as a scapegoat and bring back Beckham!?! The England team is a joke and watching the Euros - Croatia in particular - its easy to see that we don’t deserve to be there.
Martin Cutler
31   Posted 16/06/2008 at 01:57:25

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I want Everton to win something, anything... I would be happy with the League Cup, I would prefer the Uefa Cup and/or FA Cup... I would love to win the Premier League (or come 3rd or 2nd).... it would be a dream to win the Champions League.

Any one of these or all of them I would love for MY TEAM, EVERTON.

That said...............I would LOVE FOR MY COUNTRY?S NATIONAL TEAM (I mean ENGLAND of course) to win the Euro?s (2012 will do nicely thank you) and THE WORLD CUP. I don?t care how much they earn, I don?t even care if Gerrard or Rooney scored the winning goal (although I admit I can?t stand Gerrard period and Rooney?s attitude and scowl most of the time) but It still wouldn?t bother me if they did the business. I would love for MY COUNTRY?S NATIONAL TEAM to win the World Cup again before I kick the bucket... and if anybody thinks I?m wrong or disagrees, well, I DON?T CARE!

I?m English, proud of it, and I don?t muddy the waters by worrying how much they get paid, or if they should be playing better (I could bitch about both those points but that?s a separate argument altogether).

If Capello can turn England into a winning team I?ll be the happiest man around!

If Everton could win the Champions League within the next 3 or 4 years.... .whoa, too much to take in.... but I?d love it all the same!!!



Ed Fitzgerald
32   Posted 16/06/2008 at 05:19:28

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The current Euros have been excellent, open, entertaining and by far the best international tournament for years. I could not give a shit about England whatsoever. Let's face it the notion of Englishness is pretty diffuse and nowhere is this more true than Liverpool where a good proportion of us have a Celtic heritage. The behaviour of our media, players and fans is generally embarrassing when such tournaments are in progress so perhaps it's for the best England are not there.
Derek Thomas
33   Posted 16/06/2008 at 06:09:39

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This London / southern / engerland is not just a modern thing, it’s not even a football thing, it applied to Truman and other northeners in cricket and athletics.

God knows Alf Tupper had a hell of a struggle against all the posh Ox bridge toffs

Henry Cooper said that when he fought overseas he had to knock them out to get a draw. Any northern player has to be well better than the rival southerner. just to get an even chance

Even the great man himself came up against it in the 30’s.

How that Budgie Byrne got so many caps I’ll never know, well yes I do, he played for a London club.

That Tosser Storey wasn’t fit to lace Kendalls boots, but who got all the caps.

When the draw for the 66 world cup was made and the tickets on sale, the draw stated that the winner of group 1, which we all knew would be England, would play the group 3 winners


And what happened, somebody pre emptted Al Gore with and inconvenient truth. we got the shitty end of the stick yet again.

Gavin Corgan 8 MILES !! that makes you a woolie back FFS.
Garry Corgan
34   Posted 16/06/2008 at 21:54:23

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Gavin FFS!

A wolllieback I may be, but surely Kirkby is eight miles from Speke or Garston? ;)
Derek Thomas
35   Posted 17/06/2008 at 06:38:58

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Sorry about the wrong name there Graham, please accept my apologies.

8 mile or 8 ins for that matter, the distance matters not, you are still a Blue and Kirkby is a million spiritual miles from where we want to be.
Franny Porter
36   Posted 18/06/2008 at 11:58:52

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Ive said this quite recently on this site, but I will say it again.

I would rather Everton won the Zenith Data Systems Cup than England win the World Cup.

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