Just Read this on the BBC website:
"We only have one word to describe this stadium - perfection. The club will be playing a big part in the regeneration of the city and our fans will have the very best in terms of facilities and amenities, as well as an excellent viewing experience"
Portsmouth chief executive Peter Storrie on their new stadium to be built on the waterfront within Portsmouth "CITY"!!!!
This debate is going to go on raging and raging until it falls flat on it's face for one group of us. I don't want to go and I've said so in my other posts. I've seen and read all of the garbage coming from Everton and especially Wyness. We all know he can't be trusted with Everton's best interests. Surely this is more evidence that City stadiums are the way to go?
I'm wondering why Wyness hasn't come out and said the same as Storrie?? I'm thinking it's because he know's he's fucking us silly!!!!!!!!!
John Hughes, Posted 18/06/2008 at 12:32:05
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1 Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:19:05
You will find the city only has one team so their council will bend over backwards to help
That and Portsmouth city centre isn?t as big or packed as Liverpool city centre
Finally their stadium is only going to be 36000.
Design looks cool though
2 Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:20:52
3 Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:22:20
Its clearly going to be groundbreaking and allow any portsmouth manager big big funds.
Your failure to mention the size of their proposed new ground is suspicious because of its absence.
Do you like your unrestricted view in Goodison? Selfish, Loud-mouthed, Propagandising, Belligerent, alleged fellow supporter.
Time to wake up and realise Goodison, as hallowed as it is, is slowly strangling Everton Football Club, and the longer the hypoxia is allowed to continue the more likely irreversible damage will be done.
Everton for Everyone.
4 Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:41:16
Should we then also compare the Pompey one to the monstrosity that will be built in the park?, it is half the size so obviously not perfection.
5 Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:43:38
Time to move on. Goodison will always be part of our great history, but its the future we need to look to.
6 Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:35:57
7 Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:41:58
So 35k seater stadium, nicely designed stadium from one of the other teams pushing in the direction of the sky four, is going to kill off Portsmouth because they won’t attract coroprates or their fans... whilst our out of town 50k seater eggbox will have everyone racing to it because they can stop off and buy some groceries before heading home?
8 Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:31:36
It reminds me of the Kings Dock proposed development.
If it does get built it will something to be proud of for a football team with a lots of history with an old ground, well past its sell by date..........
9 Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:55:28
I’d like to ask this question of all Evertonians:
In light of those recent rumours of a takeover, if you could decide the future of the club, the choice being either:
BK’s board remained in charge with Kirkby (or GP) as the only possibilities,
BK sells to an unknown investor with the guarantee of a world class stadium and one as popular amongst fans as the King’s Dock,
which would you choose? Maybe TW can hold a poll on this?
10 Posted 18/06/2008 at 15:11:49
This Kirkby disaster has happened because Kenwright & Co have sat around and done nothing for years but people are using Goodison Park the stadium as the excuse for us to move on! It’s the men running it that are to blame.
11 Posted 18/06/2008 at 15:21:49
Fuck Pompy, fuck Goodison and LETS MOVE.
Fuck me - change the record will ya you’s lot....?!?!?!?!?
12 Posted 18/06/2008 at 15:17:43
13 Posted 18/06/2008 at 15:31:17
Well done Rich Jones you have now become that guy.
For god sake man that idea is ridiculous. AFC Wimbledon will be the only ones to have a decent success out of a split because of one major difference. 99% of their fans were on board.
As for FC united look at that shambles. Man Utd have got better since the Glazers took over. As for FC united they will struggle on forever.
Do you know the first thing about running a football club? Creating one and going through the hardships that are amatuer football.
14 Posted 18/06/2008 at 15:20:56
On a more serious note, by making himself the unofficial spokesman of the Club, Neville who by some mischance is the Team Captain (not the Club Captain) seems to be trying to make himself more important than he is. I would far prefer him to spend his summer watching other right backs and holding midfielders in the hope that he might be encouraged to develop his own limited skills. The last unofficial spokesman who could not resist a journalist or a microphone was Unsworth. Enough said!
15 Posted 18/06/2008 at 14:59:40
The issue is not Goodison for those who persist to mention it. People who do not want to go to Kirkby are not held back by sentimental thoughts of Goodison but sentimental thoughts about the downgrade in class of stadium we will be playing in.
Any stadium should be impressive...a contribution to our history...not a mere fact of out to be history....a stadium should be a piece of art much like the proposal for Portsmouths new ground.
16 Posted 18/06/2008 at 15:43:33
Now i’ve largely stayed away from our stadium debate and i would be sad to see us leave Goodison no matter what, but something does need to be done, i accept that. The problem is, as Kirkby has slowly become a reality (despite comments recently that the government calling the project in could scupper it) the more worried i’ve become. Sorry to bring it up again, but the Kings Dock Project gave me the positive feeling i think Pompey fans will be feeling. The Kirkby project continues to make me sad.
17 Posted 18/06/2008 at 15:44:46
18 Posted 18/06/2008 at 15:54:02
19 Posted 18/06/2008 at 16:16:56
20 Posted 18/06/2008 at 16:28:33
Alot of us don’t like the move to Kirby for whatever reason but whats done is done it seems.
Now i didn’t compare Everton to Wimbledon. I was comparing your idea or sorry your so called alternatives to the AFC Wimbledon scenario.
’Fans don’t like clubs relocation fans create their own team’.
Tell me how it’s any different? The only one i can see is Wimbledon actually moved alot further than Everton are moving.
Now my friend thats a comparision.
21 Posted 18/06/2008 at 16:22:49
If you are a desperate fan of Everton you would support them whatever the circumstances.
I think almost every Evertonian would pick a stadium like the Kings Dock proposal ahead of Kirkby, but at the moment that just doesn’t seem feasible.
At the end of the day,I know moving out of the city is an issue with many of us, but it’s just a building, it is the team and the history that they can create in the building that makes it special.
If moving gives us the extra money to push forward and write a new successful chapter in our history.
Whatever happens I will support the blues through thick and thin, that’s what Everton was all about when I watched them growing up when it was one relegation battle after another but I still loved them as much as I do today.
Lets just wait and see what happens the debate has gone round and round for months, its not going anywhere, lets think of pushing for 4th next year, COYB!
22 Posted 18/06/2008 at 16:58:23
Sorry mate, but you’re talking complete and utter cack.
Your opinion is simply ’your’ opinion and has no basis whatsoever in reality. Please don’t pretend otherwise.
23 Posted 18/06/2008 at 16:52:56
24 Posted 18/06/2008 at 16:49:24
25 Posted 18/06/2008 at 17:10:08
Exactly my point, exactly.
This move is for the next 100 years, once we have commited to becoming a Knowsley club that is it, there is no turning back.
It was only 7 years ago that Kings Dock was feasible. Just because Kirkby is feasible for the present owners does not mean that a better offer will not come along in another few years.
Unless Kirkby is the abolute best choice for the next 100 years, which I don’t think anybody actually believes it is, then we should do nothing.
Look at the latest figures and then see if you can calculate any way Moyes will have £10m more to spend than if we stay at Goodison. Break even point to Goodison is capacity at Kirkby!
26 Posted 18/06/2008 at 17:19:55
27 Posted 18/06/2008 at 17:22:24
28 Posted 18/06/2008 at 17:27:44
Portsmouths stadium is going to be smaller than Goodison, and look at the picture it loks brilliant but looks bigger than 36000.
Cant compare. KEIOC, thats if you want us and Liverpool Council do not want us. Therefore lets move on. Just like we did when we moved to Goodison when that wasn’t in the then city boundry!!!!
29 Posted 18/06/2008 at 17:49:46
Pie in the sky, but nice pie!
30 Posted 18/06/2008 at 18:15:32
makes me think we’re being short changed with our effort in Kirkby, but then again we dont have any cash for anything better
31 Posted 18/06/2008 at 18:15:30
32 Posted 18/06/2008 at 17:51:00
We spent a few years at Anfield winning one trophy, we have spent 116 at Goodison winning the other eight titles and Cups on our honours list, add Dean and Cattericks last heartbeats, peoples ashes spread,Ball and Labone superb tributes, Eusebio,Pele I could go on and on before I came to Dean on St georges steps (this wont happen again) and them men at our club should of done everything possible years ago to preserve these things, because now Highbury has gone who else can come anywhere near to that heritage we STILL have? and once its gone its gone.
We all know we need our ground sorting and have done for years and for this alone I could not trust them with what they are doing now.
Tom Hughes, as a shareholder has asked for proof of the so called feasibilty studies that the club claimed to have done on Refurbishment, or relocation inside the city and each time has heard nothing ,as there was never any done as they would of been archived in the city planning.
Everyone has their own opinion, but it seems to boil down to wether you believe Bills and Bulls spin or not, because yes or no voters surely can agree on one thing and that this Kirkby move has been done in typical modern day Everton fashion, built on spin and countless lies and worse of all telling us fans Jack shit and maybe if they had been a little more open over the past two years this move may have been accepted by a few more.
Whats the bet if Kirkby did fall through ,within six months we would be seeing plans to redevelop Goodison?
33 Posted 18/06/2008 at 18:08:06
The one thing that allows the big 4 to remain the big 4 in England is simple, THE BRAND!! and that is it!
The top 4 are the top 4 as they are the brands people are interested in, people want to watch them, people want to buy their replica shirts and people want to go and visit their stadiums, its not a problem that most of these people dont support the club as they are still pumping millions of pounds into the clubs coffers! Think about the new L1 development in the city centre, love it or hate it the fact is it attracts thousands of people with a disposable income day in day out and whats the first shop you come to? Thats right the LFC club shop! ! It hurts seeing hundreds of people carrying LFC carrier bags around town as you realise how blatantly piss poor our board is that we cant even have a retail presence in our own city!
What other footballing brands come to mind, Milan, Barca, Madrid, Bayern, Juventus and heres one for the future, LA Galaxy, all of them have one thing in common - they are at the heart of major cities and they know how to promote their brand not only to fans but to tourists and millions of people in countries around the world who may not even get the chance to go and see that club play.
How many people reading this would love to go and watch Barcalona? not because they are fans but they would love to just be able to say, I went the Nou Camp or I watched Lional Messi play! That is why big clubs are what they are as they can manage their own brand and attract investment. Something Everton has struggled with for years!
As for Kirkby, it will be the death of the club, if you think a move their will allow us to compete with the RS or the other big 4 then you are so SO wrong! ! The only way to get where they are is to thing big and like portsmouth said today, PERFECTION!
YOU HAVE TO SPEND MONEY TO MAKE MONEY IN THIS GAME!
BK does not have the money to take us forward and I think even pro Kirkby people have to recognise this but selling us out to Tesco in a laughable deal of the century is not the answer! anyone who believes that Kirkby will make us £10 million extra a year to spend on players needs to realise that this is pennies in footballing terms (Arsenal make £3 million profit every home game)
We do need to move Im all for it, I do not believe GP can be redeveloped suitably, but not to Kirkby! !
If anyone can tell me how moving to Kirkby will allow us to market our brand in line with the top 4 I will be happy to listen but dont give me an answer about increased seating, boxes, sales of pies etc, these are not arguements! I am talking about Everton as a BRAND which goes far beyond match day revenue!
Please do comment on what I have said but please make it constructive. I am not looking to get into an arguement with anyone, this is just my opinion but as someone who works for a company who are currently the world's 26th largest brand it is something that I take an interest in and when it comes to Everton something I am passionate about as at the moment our ability to market ourselves is terrible!!
34 Posted 18/06/2008 at 19:12:53
35 Posted 18/06/2008 at 19:26:50
36 Posted 18/06/2008 at 19:34:24
I don’t think so.
The brand is a seperate issue. I read in the Echo that Everton are trying to resolve the Liverpool One situation, but, I completely agree, the marketing and branding has been terrible and to be honest for all the effort JJB put in they need sacking. I am from Liverpool and currently live in Jersey, as part of my job i travel around and although there are JJB stores nationwide I wouldnt say they are exactly pushing our product, in fact they push Liverpools more (I understand the reasoning for this).
I just hope the deal with JJB is not exclusive and that we can still sell our own brand around Liverpool. One thing I think is majorly important is a EFC store in town, I remember a foreign fan over to watch a European game standing outside the closed down store by Bold St. asking me where he could get a kit, its a shambles, we need a clean up of the marketing team and fast. I am at the point of writing to the club because the disintegration of the Everton brand despite improved on field performances and European adventures is diabolical
37 Posted 18/06/2008 at 19:50:53
Whatever the debates for and against Kirkby,our stadium design next to a bland Tesco building is just so ordinary and uninspiring. Although 36000 doesn’t sound much it is the right capacity for Portsmouth. However why can’t we get a better design from a company like Herzog & de Meuron
for a 50000 + stadium ? It just shows a sheer lack of vision from the owners (and senior employees) of the club.
38 Posted 18/06/2008 at 20:38:55
39 Posted 18/06/2008 at 22:53:13
40 Posted 18/06/2008 at 22:58:12
41 Posted 18/06/2008 at 22:58:11
To call the whole thing a pathetic idea I would have to disagree. FC Utd and AFC Wimbledon have both been promoted this season. Despite the success of the two teams they derived from, (It could be argued that the creaion of MK Dons was necessary and their recent promotion tends to support this), however Fans creating their own team is great for the Fans as it means that the Fans are still important.
In the "GREAT" English Premier League Fans are not necessary really, so long as enough buy tickets and shirts they hold no importance and therefore no influence on what happens at a Club. This is a shame however is a result of the capitalisation and commodification of Football. Football Fans are treated or thought of by the owners of clubs, the FA, and PL than consumers are thought of by Microsoft, General Motors, The IMF and the WTO. So long as the ultimate goal of capital accumulation is reached who gives a shit people.
The creation of a fans club would not be glamerous, no CL football, not even Div 1, 2 or Conference. No big name players, but it would be for the Fans.
Personally, if someone is yelling at the board for investment, complaining about our lack of profile in China etc and screaming for the signings of Arshavan (who was exellent tonight...again) et al then you MUST be pro-Kirkby, or you are a hypocrite. The exists currently no real vialble alternative that is cost effective and could be in place in 2-3 years. There are alternatives, however it would take aother few years to get them in place and the football world is not a place where you can stagnate for a few seasons. While potential investment streams are rife (with more people interested in purchasing football clubs than ever before) it is vital the club gets on the bandwagon before the money dries up (which it will, eventually...like any area of capitalism its boom and bust, and only those at the very top benafit from it while many many clubs will cease to exist).
I am agiast Kirkby on grounds that it symbolises everything wrong with Football just now, and to a further extent it symbolises everything wrong with our economic system. I am also against it because I despise Tesco (I believe that should Kirkby go ahead, you will soon see Tesco investment coming our way) the the idea of TEFC disgusts me. However I dont believe Kirkby will be the demise of Everton, (Man U are in Salford and no-one really cares) becasue where we play doesn’t matter in the scheme of things. Everton will be a transnational corporation, it doesn’t matter where the HQ is based.
I am now resigned to Kirkby and have stopped caring, it will be a soul-less place but since when has football had a soul, at 22 years old It has never been in my lifetime.
42 Posted 19/06/2008 at 04:26:10
43 Posted 19/06/2008 at 06:41:08
You're very obviously an intelligent lad, Your post made my blood run cold, what a shocking insight into the way a guy of your age views the game, have you really stopped caring at 22? Football isnt called the beautiful game for nothing, it can be joyous, it can - despite what you may think - be pure. The pro-Kirkby, two-bob Alan Sugars of this world, who come on here bragging "I let my head rule my heart" would destroy the game if you allow them.
Look beyond the greed, the yanks and The Abramovich?s of this world. they wont be arouned for ever. Embrace the romance, fight for the soul of football, because the day you let your head rule your heart, is the day you should turn your back on the game and start playing chess.
44 Posted 19/06/2008 at 08:55:07
45 Posted 19/06/2008 at 10:20:31
You hold to that belief if you wish. I’ll see it for what it is... and that reminds me, must go and clean up after the three month old puppy currently running amok...
46 Posted 19/06/2008 at 10:53:57
Gavin Ramejkis - believe me I’m the last person to believe BKs bullshit. The point I was trying to make was that the Kirkby project is best described as ’the best Bill can afford’, rather than the best, full stop (far from it!). I just think that some fans don’t think of the possibilities of an Everton beyond Bill Kenwright, or equate ownership by an unknown quantity as soulless or dangerous, rather than an opportunity to make Everton a world class club again. But I’d like to see a poll to find out.
47 Posted 19/06/2008 at 14:26:39
48 Posted 19/06/2008 at 19:08:05
"I personally believe BK sees the Kirkby deal as his personal exit strategy from the club but maybe looking at retaining a place on the board. Any buyer would perform due dilligence and see a vastly increased debt and forecast profits that aren?t worth a balloon in a stadium that is probably the least accessible premier league stadium in the country. "
Sorry, I’m confused - how exactly does that benefit BK??
I asked the very same question last week, and no-one has explained the logic of how, if moving to Kirkby is more expensive, more risky and less profitable than staying at GP, then why the fuck is he doing it??
Come on, you obviously know that BK is a money grabbing liar, so please explain how, when a buyer performs due diligence, and discovers how bad the move to Kirkby is, BK is going to make his millions???
It would be nice this time if, instead of answering my question with your own question, you perhaps answer mine...
Just for clarity, the question is:
how does BK make millions out of moving to Kirkby if it’s as bad as you make out?
49 Posted 20/06/2008 at 03:50:14
I think the difference is this: With destination Kirkby, there is a partner, there is cross-funding, and you can be very sure there are some , er... "sweeteners" passing under the table... if ? and that?s a big IF ? the project actually comes off.
Redevelop Goodison? .... Who?s gonna cough up the cash??? A Big Fat Nobody!!!. There is NO MONEY for redeveloping Goodison Park, no matter how much more desireable that might be, and no matter what the difference in price. (The difference in price [if any] is academic; there really is no point argueing about it... it?s the availability of money that matters ? what Wyness calls "Deliverability" ... Follow the Money Trail!).
Destination Kirkby goes ahead and Bill, Earl, Woods, and Wyness are set to make a packet, one way or another. The short-term returns are just not there for them if they were to suddenly change colours and go for redeveloping Goodison. Which is why redevelopment has allways been poo-pooed.
And that, for me, has to be the massive, all encompassing reason why this madness continues. They are set to make a huge killing on the backs of Evertonians who will be stuck with a cowshed of a stadium in a backwater of abject deprivation. In no time at all, Everton will be on a par with Tranmere Rovers.
50 Posted 20/06/2008 at 05:52:44
Thanks for your answer.
In the absence of any evidence of "sweeteners" passing under the table (which of course, they’re never going to admit to anyway!), I still can’t see why BK is so intent on moving to Kirkby.
If it’s as bad as it’s being made out (£78m+ of increased debt, a basic "mid-level" stadium stuck in a place outside the city which no-one can get to), the value of the club is presumably going to be substantially less than redeveloping GP (which supposedly is much cheaper, less risky because it can be done in phases, and retains the fanbase we currently have, and maybe even increases revenues due to more availability of seat with unrestricted views and executive boxes).
These "sweeteners" are going to have to be pretty substantial if they’re going to make up for the significant difference in valuation of Everton in these 2 different scenarios, potentially tens of millions of pounds difference. (that’s going to need a lot of brown paper envelopes!)
You mention the availability of the money - if £78m+ is available for Kirkby, then I don’t understand why it’s not available for redeveloping GP. Presumably it’s going to be borrowed, in which case, the purpose for which the money is needed is only relevant to the club’s ability to replay this money, as this will affect the bank’s willingness to lend it.
Again, what bank is going to lend us £78m in the current climate, without having some security that we can repay it? Surely the money would be more available for developing GP if that involved a smaller amount, and would leave the club relatively more profitable than going to Kirkby (less interest payments, increased gate revenues, comparable executive box revenue)?
This is why I find it difficult to believe that BK’s sole reason for moving to Kirkby is to get out with a nice wedge of money for his troubles. Whichever buyer he finds is going to perform due diligence, and discover (presumably) that the move to Kirkby has devalued the club.
As I said before, those "sweeteners" are going to have to be pretty substantial to make up for, I dunno, say £50m/£100m difference in valuation between moving and staying.