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The Mail Bag

Uefa Cup ? Waste of effort?

Comments (54)

My article is triggered by an article in today's Guardian. The article highlights the financial rewards the English clubs made from last seasons Champions League. The list excluded gate takings and Man Utd topped the list with £33.9 Million. Chelsea made £28.7 M, LFC made £21.1M and Arsenal made £18.3 M.

Nice rewards if you can get them! So, what you may be asking yourself , did EFC make from our UEFA Cup run? £400k !! Yes, you read it right, £400K! It highlights the financial gap starkly as Arsenal spend their C League wad and announce the signing of Samir Nasri, the 'New Zidane', and we await with bated breath the signing of the 'New Carsley'.

I recall Tony Marsh being slated on this site for posting that the Uefa Cup is a waste of time and we should bail out as soon as possible. I agree with Tony on quite a few things and hope this short atricle will bring a few people round to the idea that we should play our weakest team and bail out of this Mickey Mouse competition and concentrate everything on getting that C League spot and join the gravy train.
Ray Said, Liverpool     Posted 23/06/2008 at 18:04:42

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Tony Hawkins
1   Posted 24/06/2008 at 07:53:32

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Of course the UEFA cup isn’t a waste of effort. The money isn’t much but it’s better than non and a price can not be put on the exposure the team gets by playing in other countries. Then there’s the experience the individuals get playing against different opposition.

The immediate effort and reward certainly appears disproportionate but theres always the bigger picture.

Sometimes, just sometimes, money isn’t everything - but it does help!
Steve Flanagan
2   Posted 24/06/2008 at 08:08:20

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Moneywise, yes we should bail out of the UEFA Cup ? but it’s not purely about money, as Tony Hawkins points out.

One plus of last season’s UEFA Cup run was the enhancement of our coefficient ? which ultimately means that should we get to the CL qualifiers at the end of next season we would get a much more favourable draw than Villareal, which would mean us being able to join the ’gravy train’.

If we add the return of a number of European nights at Goodison, then I would gladly have Everton play in the UEFA Cup.
Erik Dols
3   Posted 24/06/2008 at 08:03:24

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First of all - if we ever enter the qualifying rounds of the Champions League again, we need a good Uefa-coëfficient to get an ’easy’ opponent and not the number three from Spain so we actually qualify and eearn all that big money.

Second of all, since when was it only about the money? Why do we play in the League cup and FA cup if the money that can be earned is the sole rule of judgement? You don’t fancy decent cup runs I reckon?

and thirdly - we also got gate receipts. These are NOT counted into this £400k number. About 180000 people payed to watch us play home games in Europe last season. Now I’m not really sure how these things work in Europe, if you’re obliged to give the opponent part of the ticket income, but surely we made a few millions on that, just multiply it with what you think is the average ticket price... I know it’s not a figure of Champions League proportions but it can buy you a Pienaar each season.
Connor Rohrer
4   Posted 24/06/2008 at 08:04:34

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European football is part of our devlopment. It can improve our football and get us used to a more European style way of playing, We’d become more experienced in knock out competition which is important and its good for the fans.

It gives them a chance to get out to some excellent stadiums abroad like the San Siro, Ajax Amsterdam, Estádio da Luz etc. We could have a chance of visiting these stadiums next season and competing with some excellent sides. Personally as a fan that excites me, I’d rather do that than go to 38 english games a season and fail trying to reach the Champions League.

Tony Marsh always goes on about past glories and winning things and at the moment the Uefa cup is probably the most glorious and high profile cup we can win. If we win that we’d get respect in Europe and add to our shite tally of only one European trophy in a 100 odd years.

Personally I enjoy the Uefa. Alot of current Champions League teams have grown after winning the Uefa cup. Liverpool for example. They won it along with alot of other mickey mouse trophies and its was a springboard for bigger and better things. Hopefully the same will happen for us.

Playing our weakest team and disrespecting the fans and the compeition itself isn’t the way to go. Thats not our style, thats not Moyes’s style and I doubt the players would want that.
martin cutler
5   Posted 24/06/2008 at 08:03:25

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Absolutely it’s worth doing the UEFA Cup .... it isn’t a waste of time or effort, HOWEVER, I would question the way the money is divvied up.................surely there should NOT be such a discrepancy between the two competitions in terms of money earned?
Why is this? Both are televised! Both are composed of the best teams in Europe! Sure, sure.....the precious Sky Four and all that BS but clearly the money available is bias towards those that "usually" make up the Top Four ....... but exactly how do teams outside the top four fucking well compete?

I’m more and more leaning towards the opinion that Moyes hasn’t got a fucking chance to succeed................he has done a fantastic job at’s taken time for sure but just how on earth can he compete? He can’t keep competing at the top level with a small squad, injured players, not being able to afford the players he wants, it must be so frustrating for the poor guy...............whereas he appears to be learning the arts and skills of his trade (again slowly and with defensive tendencies in mind) but he IS learning.............FFS will somebody give him some money so we can compete!

The size of the squad and the depth of talent at the likes of Chelski and Manyoo and The RS is not because of talent & ability (okay, in part it is), it’s because they just earn so much more money because of the Champions League, their final position in the Prem, their advertising/merchandise....................kudos to Moyes for doing so well given that the LESSER clubs like Spurs and Newcastle etc have money to burn but he’s still done better than them!
Just look at Manyoo’’s home attendance......they earn so much more money from each and every home game!

Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...............whatever happens, roll on the first game of the season.........back to reality, kind of!
Ray Said
6   Posted 24/06/2008 at 08:37:45

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I appreciate the comments lads. Most posters indicate that UEFA Cup is worth the effort. I understand and agree with some of the points made, seeing different oppistion, the players gaining experience etc but one of the points I wanted to make, and its obviously not come across as strongly as i intended, was that the UEFA Cup stretches our playing resources and weakens the efforts to gain the CL place-case in point being the post Fiorentina effect when we went into a bit of a tailspin. I believe that the efforts made in pursuit of the UEFA Cup cost us a C League place and that place , if we qualify to the group stages ,could be worth at least 6 M. the sum that Rangers made.
Paul Niklas
7   Posted 24/06/2008 at 08:48:40

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The four of them may have made the money suggested, however they spend that amount and more every season to sustain it.

Basically If the numbers are right their seems to be no benefit in either competition and that the real money is in merchandising and the support from wealthy individuals.

Dave Lynch
8   Posted 24/06/2008 at 08:59:17

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Would we be having this discussion if we had won the thing.

NO !
We would be rubbing it the faces of the rednoses BIG TIME !
Gravy trains, big money, expensive signings etc.............
Footys gone money mad. Nobody seems to care about trophys anymore, unless it’s the CL or the prem.
I dispair, i really do.
Dan McKie
9   Posted 24/06/2008 at 09:03:16

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That 400k surely cant include gate receipts (near or at capacity for 5 or 6 games) and extra merchandising can it? If it does, then yes, it was a waste of time!
David Smith
10   Posted 24/06/2008 at 09:01:15

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Simple reply : Zenit St Petersburg in 2006-7, practical unknowns, in 2008, European household names.

Thanks to what ? UEFA Cup.

The problem is with UEFA’s prize money distribution.

We ain’t in it for the money, just the glory !

PS I love that final rumour about Moyes and Arshavin’s contract joint announcement !
Andy Callan
11   Posted 24/06/2008 at 09:10:36

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Footie is about winning things. If you would rather finish 4th in the league and not win anything then what is the fuckin point in playing..?!?!?!?

I agree the the CL is what everyone strives to, but as we don;t have the cash of the ’big-4’ then we will have to scratch around for 5th / league cup / uefa cup won;t we.

Get used to it.
Ray Roche
12   Posted 24/06/2008 at 09:13:42

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So,the UEFA Cup run "wasn’t worth it"? Try telling that to all the lads who had a brilliant time on their European Tour......

If people don’t want to enjoy the European experience,start supporting Stoke or someone...
James Marshall
13   Posted 24/06/2008 at 09:13:52

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What a sad indictment of modern life, let alone football this article is - do you judge everything on how much it’s worth in monetary terms? If so, then you must be a very unhappy individual. Football, and winning trophies is about the glory, the thrill of seeing your team clinch titles, beating the opposition, the excitement of being winners - it has nothing to do with money Ray.

Society today has bred people to concentrate solely on the financial gain to be had from every given opportunity and its this attitude that leaves the western worl in the state we see it - that said, you can apply the same token to the entire planet and you won’t be far off the mark. The US has the highest rate of depression in the world, yet they are viewed as being the richest and most ’succesful’ nation due to their so called wealth - sorry to harp on about this subject but I get really wound up by this attitude being applied to sport. Sport was always about endeavour and never about money - you dont give a kid a football and say, ’go on son, out you go and earn loads of cash’. You do it for the pleasure of playing.

I wish people would get back to that, because its that very same attitude thats destroying the planet thats destroying sport and especially football.

Afluenza is what you have my friend.
Steve Templeton
14   Posted 24/06/2008 at 09:16:53

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The problem with your viewpoint Roy as I see it is where does it end? First of all we ditch the Uefa Cup to concentrate on qualifying for the Champions League, what happens if we just miss out, do we then ditch the League Cup and FA Cup the following season?

Whilst I can understand your thinking in view of the drop in form post-Fiorentina I don’t believe that we are in a position to pick and choose which trophies we go for, we have to keep trying on all fronts in the hope that with a bit of luck with injuries we can break our duck and bring some much needed success back to Goodison. Don’t forget that we lost Cahill for a large chunk of last season and Arteta played most of the campaign with an injury and therefore was under par, then there was the loss of players to the ANC and their loss of form on their return to the club. If we can avoid these problems this season and bring in a few more players to strengthen the squad then hopefully we can go the extra step further this season.
EJ Ruane
15   Posted 24/06/2008 at 09:20:23

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Ray - Absolutely agree

When we started our run, I didn’t think we were going to win it, but I wanted to go to all the away trips.

Because of work I couldn’t get to Mental, but got to Nuremberg, Alkmaar and Fiorentina.

They’re now all great memories (yes even Florence, I spent 5 days there!)

I suggest (with or without tickets) anyone who couldn’t go last season, gets abroad this year.

It can’t be bettered.

The laughs, the beer and the wins, all somehow taste sweeter when you’re there.

Worth the ’effort’?

Jason Lam
16   Posted 24/06/2008 at 10:44:14

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So let’s all lose our first round matches in the Carling, FA Cup and UEFA. That will guarantee us Champions League group stage football. Bloody hell.
Jay McGrady
17   Posted 24/06/2008 at 10:44:23

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Does that figure include tv revenues?Every game was televised.

Plus think about the merchandise sales and club exposure.
Added to the fact of bring buisness ti Walton
Simple Simon
18   Posted 24/06/2008 at 10:59:50

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That figure didn’t include gate receipts, which must have added up to nearly £5m. Then add on TV revenue, which must, surely, have approached £3m. Add the figures together and we have a revenue of about £8.4m. That might just be enough to purchase Fernandes or someone similarly brilliant.

Plus, if we are going to attract good European players, then we must get our name seen in Europe. If not, we’ll end up reverting to the "Dogs of War" style that has tended to dominate since the ’90s.
Paul Niklas
19   Posted 24/06/2008 at 11:07:07

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The figure was everything excluding gate money.

You can add about 3 to 4 million tops for the extra games.

So maximum 5 million, nothing to turn your nose up at thats about 7% growth based on EFC turnover.

But the point is I suppose is that to be in the champions league and stay in it you have to spend as much as you earn.

Thats why you need the investor to support the rest.

norman merrill
20   Posted 24/06/2008 at 11:11:54

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Tony Hawkins,
I agree with both you and Rays assessment of all things Eufa cup.
We had the first sightings, of Arshavin. last year, but it never pushed us into any
early action, but the RS moved in and took the Zenith centre half.
Mark Stone
21   Posted 24/06/2008 at 11:26:15

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I think you need to be a force in the UEFA cup before you can progress onto the champions league. Look at Liverpool and Man Utd, for instance.

Rome wasn’t built in a day.
Dan McKie
22   Posted 24/06/2008 at 11:27:00

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How many times, Arshavin didnt want to move in January and Zenit wouldnt sell, they are no paupers and it was in the players best interest to stick with Zenit till after the Euros aswell as the club itself! He is on 50k a week now plus bonuses, we couldnt better that then or now!
Paul Rigby
23   Posted 24/06/2008 at 11:38:54

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Hmmm. Anyone thought that maybe the PLAYERS want to play in the UEFA cup? Do you not think they would be pissed off if they were all rested for the league? It would hardly help attract players would it?
Mark OBrien
24   Posted 24/06/2008 at 12:02:43

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No amount of money will ever replace the joy of being there when we beat any domestic or european opposition or lift any domestic or european silverware. Already looking forward to the airport lounge - See you there. (I will be one of many NOT reading the FT.)
Paul Niklas
25   Posted 24/06/2008 at 12:11:07

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Great to be in the UEFA cup than not is really not in question.

The key question is Financially is it worth it the answer is from that point of view only just, the 5 million evertom may have made would have netted about 3 million in pure profit, so to me thats well worth it.

From a profile point of view, no question at all that it is not worth it, from a player point of view it is also great for development.

If we had not been in we would not have even had a sniff of Arshavin so again worth it.

Also gives us something to play for .

Champions league is about investment, have you enough money to pay to get into it and stay in it, in Evertons case sadly the answer is no.

United spent 50 million on players at the beginning of last season and with gate money added to their figure plus merchanding I would estimate they got about 60 million.

Thats revenue not profit, player costs and bonuses and staff costs would probably wipe out the 10 million profit.

Liverpool and Chelea would be no doubt the same relatively.

So is the UEFA cup worth it ,answer yes because its all we can afford.

Michael Brien
26   Posted 24/06/2008 at 12:12:18

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1) Yes DM had firsthand knowledge of Arshavin last year.Yes he may well have wanted to sign him - but presumably as Zenit were in the process of challenging for ( and eventually winning) The Russian title I would doubt very much that they were willing to sell him at that time. Also he would have been cup tied as regards the UEFA Cup.
2) I read on teletext that Rangers made about £7m in the CL but that was boosted by £4M from the UEFA Cup.
3) Clubs that qualify for the UEFA Cup tend to have a better chance of landing the good players.
4) As regards the efforts vs Fiorentina affecting our league run in - who know’s? It wasn’t playing in th UEFA Cup that cuased Cahill to get injured was it ?
5) If you follow the line that the UEFA Cup damaged our Prem League effort - you could say playing in the Cup Winners Cup Final in 1985 damaged our chances in the FA Cup Final and therefore our hopes of winning the double.

In my opinion the UEFA Cup is good for Everton.The lack of opportunity for European football led to the break up of a great Everton team in the the 1980’s.For goodness sake we even lost a couple of our best players to Glasgow Rangers, because they could offer the chance of European competition and we could not !!!! Do we want to return to those days ? I think not.

Brian Clough - one of the greatest managers of the modern era - and one who deserved a knighthood far more than Ferguson - once stated that as far as he was concerned winning matches and challenging for Cups, whether League Cup or even the Texaco Cup was what football was all about. A pretty good principle if you ask me.

As was stated above - thanks to the UEFA Cup Zenit are now a household name. Even if they lose Arashavin they will probably be able to go for some top names to replace him.

To conclude as it seems likely that we will miss out on Arashavin - and I am sure DM,BK etc will get the blame, it would be as well to remember we will not be the only club he will have turned down. There are probably at least a dozen clubs who would love to sign him. I write this mainly because I am fed up with the slagging off Moyes has been getting from some for missing out on Ramsay.In signing for Arsenal he not only turned down Everton - he also turned down Man Utd.

Let’s put things into perspective - we haven’t signed anyone yet - that precisely the same as most of the PL clubs.
Tony Marsh
27   Posted 24/06/2008 at 12:51:27

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Well Said Ray.No doubt it is a great achievement for Moyes and the team to make it in to 5th or 6th spot and claim the UEFA Cup slot but actually playing in the thing is what has always worried me.I am still of the opinion that the extended Uefa Cup run did for our season in the end.

A squad as small as ours was bound to burn out at the 3/4 mark of the campagain playing twice a week and thats exactly what happened.For me its Champions League or nothing.<

Theres no kudos for players playing Polish Waiters or Russian Tram Drivers and no money to be made by the club so whats the point? PLEASE dont say experiance because comparing the Uefa Cup to the CLs is like comparing the Premier League to the Vauxhall Conference.

The figures out to day only prove what I said a few months back.£400 poxy grand wont even cover the travelling expenses we incurred playing in these poxy games.
Kevin Jones
28   Posted 24/06/2008 at 12:14:31

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In my opinion the Uefa Cup was definitely worth the effort, we had some great nights and some great goals. What I can’t understand is why people are surprised we only made £400,000 in prize money, as we all know the regular CL teams have assured that they get the big bucks while the rest of us live off there scraps, a bit like the EPL and the lower leagues, who do you think voted for the 3rd place CL teams to come into the Uefa which, just going off on a bit of a tangent, absolutely drives me mental. Having said that we would probably be as greedy as the rest if we became regulars in the CL, its an old saying but ’more always wants more’ Also I don’t think we made that much money from the TV rights Channel 5 and ITV 4 Certainly won’t pay anywhere near what Sky pays. Also on the gate receipt’s, don’t forget most rounds where £15.00 Adults and £5.00 Concessions so even if we say an average ticket price of £15.00 it only comes to just over £2.5m. So I reckon with Prize money gate receipt’s and TV rights we couldn’t have made much more than £4 to £5m, but its £4 to £5m we didn’t have and IMO the most valuable think we gained from the run was experience and exposure. So bring on next seasons can’t wait.
Michael Brien
29   Posted 24/06/2008 at 13:24:37

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Tony Marsh - "Russian Tram drivers " !!!! Is that the same team that won the thing are in the champions league and have several players in the Russian squad that has reached the Euro 2008 Semi Final !!!!

If we get to the UEFA final - another poxy game - I presume you will give up any chance of a ticket and let those of us who would really value it to have a chance to go ?? Thought not - join the ranks of the hypocrites.
Tony Williams
30   Posted 24/06/2008 at 13:46:16

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Tony, it is about experiaence and more importantly our co-efficient getting better.

"Polish Waiters or Russian Tram Drivers" Didn’t see many of them against the Russian and Norweigan Champions, or against Fiorintina.

You repeatedly say that we get no prize for finishing 6/5th yet you try and belittle the only European cup that we realistically have a chance of winning.

You want to win the league but turn your nose up at a European Cup, you dive into a tirade of abuse against our "gutless" manager when we lose in the Carling Cup, which is again seen as a Mickey Mouse Cup by others.

Who’s to say that if we beat Fiorintina on pens we would have continued on with an unbeaten run until the end of the season and snatched 4th place?

Winning breeds confidence and we were winning, usually comfortably. in the Cup, which must have had a positive effect on our league form...then again for less than half a million lets put our the reserve and concentrate on the league, you know the one we have a realistic chance of winning...hmmmm, maybe not!
Derek Turnbull
31   Posted 24/06/2008 at 14:08:36

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The UEFA Cup is a fantastic tournament. I haven’t enjoyed a competition that have Everton have entered that much for years. The problem is that the Euro Super Clubs want to make it a monopoly between themselves hence the unfair distribution of money.
James Marshall
32   Posted 24/06/2008 at 14:23:01

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Tony you talk tosh mate - those ’Russian tram drivers’ as you put it, have been the driving force behind getting Russia to the semi finals of the tournament thats only second to the world cup!! Dont you watch tv Tony?!

The mind boggles.
Simple Simon
33   Posted 24/06/2008 at 14:34:04

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Paul Niklas: I think you?re wrong in implying that the £400k included TV revenue and merchandising. Why would UEFA have, and publish, the figures for such revenue streams? Like I said, prize money, TV revenue, gate receipts and merchandising would have netted us in the region of £8-9m.
Michael Brien
34   Posted 24/06/2008 at 14:40:41

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Tony Marsh - you don’t do some scouting for Bayern Munich do you ? that might explain the UEFA Cup Semi Final aggregate score (expressed in Marshspeak)
Russian Tram Drivers 5 Bayern Munich 1.

Suggest you leave football to those who know what they are talking about.
Connor Rohrer
35   Posted 24/06/2008 at 15:07:35

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With teams like Everton, AC Milan, Ajax, Valencia, Hamburg, PSG, Seville, Spurs, Aston Villa, Man City and Deportivo La Coruna the Uefa cup’s going to be very competitive next year.

I’m looking forward to it. I’d love to visit the San Siro, if we draw them in the competition I’ll definatly be going.

Nuremburg last season was one of the best trips I’ve been on. Somewhere like Ajax or AC Milan would just be an amazing experience.
James Marshall
36   Posted 24/06/2008 at 15:30:48

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We’d all like a jolly to Amsterdam eh!

Did Aston Villa make the UEFA cup Connor?
Connor Rohrer
37   Posted 24/06/2008 at 15:35:02

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They made the Intertoto James. I think they have to win one game in four weeks time and then they’ll be in the Uefa cup.
James Marshall
38   Posted 24/06/2008 at 15:36:40

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Aaah yeah good point - the lineup for the UEFA cup is excellent for next season; I really enjoyed the (painful) games we were involved in last year and some more of the same next season will be lovely. People like Tony will never be happy, even if we make the Champs League he’ll complain that we’re not competitive enough. If we win the league he’ll complain that the opposition wasnt good enough, or that we won it playing shit footy or something like that!
Paul Niklas
39   Posted 24/06/2008 at 15:29:03

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Simple Simon- I have stated Everton would have achieved about 5 million, if TV money is on top you can add ! million maximum, and merchandising ( What merchandising) maybe add 500k if your lucky.

Therefore max abot 6.5 million turning after related costs I would say maximum 4 Million.

Good money and it all helps.

But the champions league it is not and to reiterate United spent as much on new players to achieve about 60 million.

We spent approximately 20 million at the beginning of the season and it netted us 4 million.

Plus a few million quid more for finishing 5th.

In basic terms we would be about 10 million worse off based on our numbers and Utd would be about 5 to 10 million better off.

My point spending 50 million to get 10 million and your initial 50 million back is not a bad bet.

Spending 20 million and getting 10 million back only is in most business,s commercial suicide.

Thats the difference between us and them they can outlay the money in the first instance because they have the backing.

We cant afford it so we have to settle for the next best thing, UEFA cup.
John Pulman
40   Posted 24/06/2008 at 15:27:14

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Ive got to say people like Tony Marsh really get my goat. Tony - if the UEFA cup is such an abhorrent thing to you then dont watch us in it, dont come to the games, and dont bother taking the glory if we do well. In fact, if you want to support a team that only cares about money and the CL then i have one word for you - Liverpool. Meanwhile I will be going to as many european games as I can, supporting the team through thick and thin. Final comment Tony - ’Nil Satis Nisi Optimum’ (Nothing but the best is good enough). Think on what that really means and then try and tell us that Everton should be putting out a substandard team in the Uefa Cup in order to concentrate on the league. For goodness sake our only euro success was the Cup Winners Cup!! Aint Uefa better than that?
Neil McKinney
41   Posted 24/06/2008 at 15:48:22

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Sorry Paul, but you’re getting carried away now.

There is no doubt that the UEFA Cup pales in comparison with the CL, but most fans will not accept the attitude that it’s not worth bothering unless it’s the very best. The UEFA Cup is exactly what teams like us, trying to bridge the gap, feed off.

Let’s just cancel all leagues apart from the top filight in every country, do away with the best knock out cup tournament in the world, the FA Cup, and of course the Mickey Mouse Carling Cup. Forget the Copa del Rey and whatever the Italian version’s called. Blah, Blah, Blah. Fuck it, it’s easier if we all just support Man U, seeing as we only want the best.

As far as I’m concerned, you don’t have the full picture, yet you are making huge assumptions about what it cost us and what we made from it. You’ve lost sight of the only valid point you ever had, which is the gulf in prize money.

"We spent approximately 20 million at the beginning of the season and it netted us 4 million.
Plus a few million quid more for finishing 5th.
In basic terms we would be about 10 million worse off based on our numbers and Utd would be about 5 to 10 million better off.
My point spending 50 million to get 10 million and your initial 50 million back is not a bad bet.
Spending 20 million and getting 10 million back only is in most business,s commercial suicide."
What are you talking about Paul? That is the most simplistic financial evaluation of a club I have ever seen.
Paul Niklas
42   Posted 24/06/2008 at 16:12:36

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Neil, simplistic i agree in respect of the clubs overall finances.

My point is ,relating to what you plan to spend at the beginning of a budgetary process versus what you would bring in.

Undoutedly you will come up with different answers depending on where you look.

But believe me if everything remained equal from one season to the next and Everton are a casing point.

Attendances premier league- not much increase year on year.

Merchandising - appalling relationship with JJB, marketing poor- so not really to much benefit there.

we can get 5th so lets plan for 7th and take the benefit- 2/3 million benefit.

Lets progress in UEFA and get as high up the league as we can, we need to spend on players to which we did approx 20 miilion.

I know this is the basics but believe you me it wont be far off.

We focussed on UEFA and the league and that benefitted us, a maximum of 10 million excluding costs and player wages.

so we made in my opinion no more than 5 million.

I will be proven wrong or right in the accounts,.

Niel, my overall point is to achieve champions league status it will cost around 40 to 50 million in spend every season to start achieving a profit on that outlay, for us we have to spend as much as we can to achieve this but it will result in nett loss if we dont achieve it.

It will be wrapped up in long term payments of interest and loan notes but it all ends up costing us at the end of the day.

I am not complaining though I am delighted with David and the team and playing in Europe.

Off the pitch it is the most difficult job in business managing a Football club and the aspirations of paasionate fans, In my opinion Bill Kenwright has done wonders in a very difficult situation and we should be thankful.

I just believe our position is realistic based on our available funds.

If you want an indepth financial debate about it though believe you me I can give you one, but that is not for this site or any other its for Bill and his team to do.
Oliver Reed
43   Posted 24/06/2008 at 16:37:17

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This thread is getting very silly now....naming penis? Good lord, where are the editors?

400 grand is ludicrous, no doubt..but we are in it now so there you are. No point in discussing the in and outs.

Any one fancy an arm wrestle?
Ben Brown
44   Posted 24/06/2008 at 16:49:41

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Bit of a non-discussion this isn’t it?

No, in the short term, UEFA cup isn’t financially "worth it". However, in the long term it is, and non-financially it is.
Tony Williams
45   Posted 24/06/2008 at 17:09:38

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"We spent approximately 20 million at the beginning of the season and it netted us 4 million.

Plus a few million quid more for finishing 5th.

In basic terms we would be about 10 million worse off based on our numbers and Utd would be about 5 to 10 million better off.

My point spending 50 million to get 10 million and your initial 50 million back is not a bad bet.

Spending 20 million and getting 10 million back only is in most business,s commercial suicide".


So that £20 million spent was just for the Wafer Cup? The 19 League games and 2 English Cup games are not added then?

That few million quid for finishing 5th was actually a bit more than "a few".

I am pretty sure that our income is based on more than what we get in the Wafer Cup, so your figures don’t make sense.
Nich Starling
46   Posted 24/06/2008 at 17:27:58

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The £400,000 figure appear to be based purely on money earned by Everton from Uefa directly and does not take in to account extra revenues from gate receipts and sponsorships, as far as I understand.
Paul Niklas
47   Posted 24/06/2008 at 17:35:30

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Tony I stated that the finaces are far more intricate than my simple equation however as also stated the 20 million spent on players would have been speculative based on an improvement in the league and a long run in cup competitions.

The budget process would have lokked a bit like this.

Target 7th in league - 6 million achieve 5th extra 2 million.

UEFA cup- what ever we can get they would have not budgetted for more than say a couple of million so to achieve 4 million is great.

League attendance over the 19 games really did not bring in much more than the season before and corporatll I would sugggest less as we had no match sponsor for 50% of games.

No extra income from the FA cup and a small amount for the carling cup.

Therefore we spent 20 million on players and recouped through performance circa 10 million less costs of player wages and staffing with some bunce from merchandising.

The figures relate to this and this alone.

Jay Harris
48   Posted 24/06/2008 at 19:27:26

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"We spent approximately £20 million at the beginning of the season and it netted us £4 million.
Plus a few million quid more for finishing 5th.
In basic terms we would be about 10 million worse off based on our numbers and Utd would be about £5 to £10 million better off."

The £20 million will last more than 1 season so it is ridiculous to claim £20 million only got us an extra £4 to £5 million.

Plus the value of those players is likely to at least remain the same if not increase especially with European exposure.
Jay Campbell
49   Posted 24/06/2008 at 20:27:26

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Arsenal, Chelsea and the RS won all that money for winning fuck all??


Paul Niklas
50   Posted 24/06/2008 at 22:03:55

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Jay, it did not get us extra anything it lost us about £15 million.

Or put us another £15 million in debt or it was mortgaged from the season's tv money.

Yakubu: £11 million will never be worth more than that.

Jags: £4 milllon - will be worth more no doubt.

But the bottom they are only worth more if you sell them.

The Sky 3 plus 1 will pay twice the amount we pay every season to hold onto the Champions League and ensure that they do turn a profit per season.

We cannot afford the £40 million a season even if we do get into the top 4 again it would take 5 seasons at least to benefit fully from the Champions League and about £200 million in outllay.
Tony Williams
51   Posted 25/06/2008 at 08:55:13

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Paul, I would hate to have you as my accountant.

38 games for the league, 19 at home so we get the biggest slice of the pie, 19 away so we get a smaller percentage. At home all the money spent on the warm ale and cold pies etc, I have a feeling it all adds up way passed your conservative view on our finances.

What about the money made from selling players?

That £20 million spent is for the whole length of the players conetract, not just this financial year
Paul Niklas
52   Posted 25/06/2008 at 10:49:39

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Tony, I stated and will again if everything else was equal season to season and in Evertons case attendances and corporate and pies and beer would have seen no real increase in premiership terms if so it would not be a lot.

The 4/5 million extra profit after all costs including higher wages of the palyers brought in, the bonus payments for winning in europe and finishing 5th and the extra staffing costs for the additional games.

All I am saying is that to get into the champions league consistantly you would need to spend 40 million a season to attain profitabity or in another way a return on that single investment, spending 20 million to get into the UEFA cup and finishing 5th is fantastic for Everton but does not bring a return against the 20 million spent.

You will only get the return on the outlay of players by getting into the champions league.

The 5 million Everton may have made for 5th and UEFA last season is a return against the 20 million spent on players as all other revenue from a premiership perspective in my opinion would be flat year on year or show a small increase.

Shows you though how difficult it is to make logical decisions running a football club.

Which is why Bill and the guys deserve all the credit you can give them in the running of the club.

Kirkby aside that is!!!

Happy to do your accounts though?
Jimmy Digney
53   Posted 25/06/2008 at 13:22:04

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Ray Said
what ever happened to the notion of going to the games entering all the cup competions, hoping we will win a trophy any trophy, in any competition? We are supporters, we are not finiancial advisors (bean counters); we go the games because we all want to win trophies don't we? So why on earth should we consider pulling out of such a big competion, second only to the Champions League, because we as a club only earn. a small amount of PROFIT. Get real will yeah, focus on supporting the team, in the ground and let Bully and his cronies concentrate on the money side of things,
Ged Simpson
54   Posted 26/06/2008 at 14:47:34

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We play to win competitions not too earn money.

If the order changes for us I?m off and will be supporting Barclays from now on.

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