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The Mail Bag

Kirkby and the purse strings

Comments (40)

Forgive me if this post comes across as completely naive on my part but I cannot help be but completely perplexed by this whole Kirkby scenario and how it affects our spending this pre-season.

Some media outlets say that how much David Moyes has to spend depends entirely on whether Destination Kirkby actually goes through; however, I am bemused by this. In what way would our spending be affected, and why should money for a stadium project affect squad building? Surely these are two completely different things and should not be related.

I have tried to understand how exactly our spending would be affected; if DK goes through, Everton will undoubtedly have to share the cost with Tesco, and if DK gets 'called in' and delayed this will also cost the club financially according to Keith Wyness, so it's a loss-loss scenario either way financially.

Everton are yet again in a situation where, after the best efforts of David Moyes and his playing staff, the club are in a stable position paired with which investment in quality playing staff and a bigger squad would arguably bridge the gap further and possibly even break the monopoly of the top four, yet they look as if they do not have the finance to do so. This is becoming an annoying trend and from my understanding would be further exacerbated by the Kirkby project being successfully implemented or even 'called in'.

The long term benefits of a new stadium are obvious, but I am quite frankly worried that the success of last season will not be sufficiently built upon this coming season with the quality purchases needed.

Furthermore, David Moyes's long term future as manager may well depend on the extent to which he and his squad is backed financially this pre-season and the delay is certainly worrying to say the least.
Dominic Fitzpatrick, Wallasey     Posted 25/06/2008 at 00:20:07

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Derek Thomas
1   Posted 25/06/2008 at 06:17:36

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Seems simple to me:

DK is a goer = small transfer kitty.

DK falls over (for whatever) = small transfer kitty.

Q.E.D.

THERE IS NO TRANSFER KITTY !!

( well nothing worth bothering about in the leap to 4th or over stakes )
Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
2   Posted 25/06/2008 at 06:12:10

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It?s all more annoying spin, Dominic ? and if the third paragraph of Nick Smith?s article in the Echo yesterday is anything to go by then the local press is once again on board ? but it comes down to the fact that the club doesn?t have much money to throw around.

The "deal of the century" stadium that was supposed to be "effectively free" is now going to cost Everton £78m (significantly more in the final reckoning if it ever comes to fruition, I?m sure) and the Board is going to have to borrow to fund it, just as it has been borrowing against Sky revenue and from Robert Earl to fund player acquisitions.

If they have a stadium development to pay for, they?ll be borrowing on two fronts (naming rights and the sale of Goodison won?t even get them anywhere close despite what Keith Wyness wants you to believe), with one affecting the other.

Worryingly, the club appears to be at something of a crossroads. Moyes?s contract extension may depend on the promise of sufficient funds but if Desintation Kirkby goes ahead, there may not be enough of it; Phillip Green and Earl?s continued investment may depend on the stadium and they could melt away if it gets called in.

Either way, I can?t see Moyes getting the amount of money needs to strengthen the squad to the standard he wants or we really need. Obviously, I'd love to be wrong...
Dave Wilson
3   Posted 25/06/2008 at 06:35:17

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I cant even sort my own finances, so I tend to stay out of the financial aspect of the debate

Are we saying if DK falls through, we dont have any money to spend on players, however,
If it goes ahead, although we instantly add 80 million to our debts, we suddenly have money to spend on the team too ?


How does that work ?
Dave Wilson
4   Posted 25/06/2008 at 06:49:03

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Thats impressive Lyndon

You answered my question before I’d asked it

I fear your concerns about the amount DM has to spend will prove to be justified too
Jason Lam
5   Posted 25/06/2008 at 07:18:00

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I think signing Bentley will allow us to play 4 across the middle and create more chances for the Yak and AJ.

Fuck, wrong thread, sorry!
Rich Jones
6   Posted 25/06/2008 at 07:43:05

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Typical of the Everton board and Kenwright, he'll have a big fat excuse now if dreaded Kirkby doesn?t go through, damned if we do damaned if we don't. Well, Keith and Bill, your stratagies are absolute genius!!
Arthur Jones
7   Posted 25/06/2008 at 07:47:46

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There is a quote from Ian Ross in a magazine called the Estate Gazette as follows

" The primary concern has to be to look after the team, and if you go back to the all-seater stadium developments of 20 years ago, you?ll see that some teams paid a heavy price for investing in their stadiums and neglecting their squads. We won?t do that."

So he?s saying that the stadium will not affect transfer spending . there are lots of contradictory articles but this is a direct quote from an Everton official

The full text of the article is on keioc.net
Gavin Ramejkis
8   Posted 25/06/2008 at 08:13:12

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Surely shareholders can call for an extraordinary general meeting and get some answers from these liars.
Richard Parker
9   Posted 25/06/2008 at 08:49:58

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Lots of negativity here boys and girls!!

It’s always the same with us and I fully include myself in that!! I was thinking that the signings last summer of Pienaar, Baines and Jagielka were a pretty poor showing for a summer transfer window then we bag the Yak at the last minute. Despite misgivings about signing an infamously lazy git for nearly £12M it was a big signing and excitement ensued.

Forget the media talk. I know we’re all scratching around for a grain of so-called news at the moment, but christ, we should know by now that if the media were to be believed we’d have lost Moyes 4-times over, plus Mikky and AJ and Joleon and Yobo......

Let’s just hope this media talk of no money, delayed funds, blah, blah, all dependent on Kirby is a clever gambit from those upstairs at GP. And Moyes is lining up the new holy-trinity as we speak.......

Pass me some more of those happy-pills, they work! Yay!
Rupert Sullivan
10   Posted 25/06/2008 at 09:02:22

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I am of the belief that if DK does not go ahead then this will affect EFC’s transfer kitty because the club will not be able to borrow against the earning streams from that project. This suggests to me that EFC do not have any money at present, which given the situation with DM is for me very troubling.

This strikes me as a case of all your egges in one basket yet again from EFC, poor management from a team which should be sufficiently experienced in what it is doing to forsee this type of issue.

Either way, we will see in the fullness of time, but I can understand the negativity in the posts here - fans becoming exacerbated with the ineffectual management of a club they love.

Let’s just hope that this won’t signal the departure of DM...
Anthony O'Sullivan
11   Posted 25/06/2008 at 09:15:48

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One reason may be that there are new investors coming in once they know the stadium gets the go ahead.

2. they may be banking on future revenue

3. Most likely is Moyes on Hols the Euros are on and Moyes always plays his cards close to his chest.
Marc Williams
12   Posted 25/06/2008 at 08:26:46

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Please will people stop quoting the £78 million estimate for that ?Value range? eyesore in the corner of a Tesco car par.

Do those who quote that figure not watch the News or read newspapers.

The combination of high commodity prices & the higher costs of raising capital, even assuming we can get it ( perhaps we??ll put it on a Tesco credit card ) mean you can already add about £15-20 million to this.

Couple that with the fact that the value of assets i.e Goodison & Bellefield are falling daily and that was even before planning permission was refused on the latter.

To proceed under the current economic conditions is potentially financial suicide.

The whole thing looks like just a smoke & mirrors gamble by Kenwright to cash in his investment & turn a personal profit at the expense of our club : Let us be used by Tesco to get their store. He had to do this as he didn?t have the capital himself. Sell Everton & cash in on his investment, with the financing of a new stadium in place, he'll make more money than selling without this in place.
That?s why there is supposedly less tranfer money if we don?t move, it's theoretically based on new investment following the sale.

Kenwright is effectively walking a ?Tight rope? here. Moyes has raised our profile & position and he got the vote to move to Kirkby at which stage all was going well i.e he could move & sell for a good price/profit.
Problem is planning permissions (Kirkby / Bellefield) & the economic slowdown are seriously threatening his plans.
It?s all in the timings & at the minuite time is rapidly running out.

Don?t get me wrong I actually quite like Bill & think he genuinely love?s Everton BUT by mixing business & pleasure I think he?ll end up hurting our club.

It?s just an opinion & obviously not having ?insider? information is just speculation but I think we?ll all see pretty soon if I?m wide of the mark.

It would of course be nice to hear from Bill or the board directly, rather than just via their ?black proaganda? & spinning to the press but at the mo? they are more elusive than Osama bin Laden!
Richard Dodd
13   Posted 25/06/2008 at 09:26:55

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Is it not merely a question of whether Davey will have £30M to spent or only £20M if money needs to be invested on the ??calling in ?process? Either way, we can be confident he will have players lined up to sign ? you can depend on it.
Paul OHanlon
14   Posted 25/06/2008 at 09:35:03

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Lyndon, I disagree with half of what you’re saying.

I believe the reason Moyes agreed in principal to sign a new contract but didn’t actually sign was because he’s waiting for ’something’ to happen. That something is now obviously the stadium decision.

So for him to agree in principal to sign an extention suggest to me he’s been promised funds if the stadium move gets the go ahead, either by borrowing further based on projected future income at the new stadium (HA!), or more likely, investment from someone who will only invest if they see the club moving to a new ground (possibly Earl?).
Steve Collins
15   Posted 25/06/2008 at 10:28:22

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Any normal club or business makes budgets.

The outcome of the stadium debacle shouldn’t impend on transfer cash.

Unless of course it wasn’t seprated in the budget and it was a case more of "well if we do this then we will have this. If this costs this then that won’t happen". Which should only happen in amatuer organisations.

The only effect i can see in the transfer kitty is the loss income from the bellfield project. Which they probably didn’t make a contigency what if budget.

In that case they may have to dip into the transfer budget to save their presious stadium.
Marc Williams
16   Posted 25/06/2008 at 10:53:45

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Steve Collins, You’re right but I think we are so cash poor that the there is alot of blurring of the lines here. There always is in business & its even worse in the public sector. My wife is a very senior manager (board level) in the NHS which gives quite an insight into how cash poor organisations operate, perpetually firefighting crisis & ’robbing Peter to pay Paul’.
I just can’t see ( from what we are told ) where we get enough money for either an adequate transfer budget or starting capital to proceed with the stadium, let alone both.


I get the feeling we won’t see any more money from Earl & Greene wants to invest in Spurs making the status of his existing investment/ loan unclear.
I suspect there is a new investor or more likely buyer lined up should Kirkby go ahead
BUT there are so many potential problems its difficult to see how it will come together.
Its like a jigsaw ( or more probably ’a house of cards’ ) where everything needs to go together at the right time or it’ll fall apart.
In late May I travelled down to London by car with two accountants from a major firm in the Midlands, who advise Multinationals & Government.
At one point we got on to football finance as one had done work for Championship clubs. He know’s I’m an Evertonian & we had a lenghty discussion about our current position as they understood it and let just say it was ’problematic’. Since then I think our position has weakened still further.
Adam Bennett
17   Posted 25/06/2008 at 11:27:28

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So then, prior to the vote, Keith Wyness said that plans to build a new stadium would not affect David Moyes? team building plans. Now, stories are being leaked from the club that the decision on the stadium will have a direct consequence on transfer funds this summer. Yet another statement to go into ?The Keith Wyness Portfolio of Lies?.
Eric Myles
18   Posted 25/06/2008 at 11:31:54

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My guess is that BK and KW have got a buyer lined up if Desperation Kirkby gets the green light so there’ll be loadsaroubles available for investment in the team.
Phil Martin
19   Posted 25/06/2008 at 11:46:52

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Richard Parker,

You are hoping this is a "clever gambit from the guys upstairs at GP"???

Has history taught you nothing?
This is the last attempt BK and KW have to gain some late support for Kirkby.

Essentially they are saying "back us with this or Moyes gets nothing".

Disgraceful!
I wrote an article a couple of months back stating how i felt the club was being held back the the "guys upstairs". And how it may take Moyes to leave for a club with bigger ambitions (a nightmare scenario), for the Everton faithful to completely turn against them.
As currently they are getting away with doing nothing because Moyes contiunes to drag this club forward on his own.

How on earth does NOT commiting to £78M worth of debt (deal of the century) result in losing a substantial transfer kitty?

Bullshit - Total Bullshit and I am sick of it!
Dan McKie
20   Posted 25/06/2008 at 11:58:01

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So if we do get the go ahead for the move and what a few people have been saying on here is right and it leads to a buyer or major investor into Everton and we have loads of cash, would that be seen as a good thing to ’no’ voters? Would they then quit with all the ’ our own fans have screwed us’ crap and eat some humble pie? Or will it be ’we still moved from Liverpool’? Just a thought.
Alan Rodgers
21   Posted 25/06/2008 at 12:22:38

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Dan,as a NO voter I would still see it as a bad thing in the long term. The R/S are building a new stadium in the city ,close to their traditional home and support. We are getting shunted off to a retail park in the unleafy suburbs. Humble pie won’t be on my menu. Kirkby is a bad idea and will condemn EFC to a slow death.
EJ Ruane
22   Posted 25/06/2008 at 12:27:46

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Dan, you talk of no voters eating ’humble pie’? (if the world’s biggest ’if’ happen)

Ian Ross now says

?...that if planning permission isn’t granted - or comes
too late - Everton will reconsider the redevelopment of Goodison Park?

I don?t quite no how to break this to you and other yes voters, but redevelopment of Goodison Park, would be.....A FUCKING PLAN B!!!!

But...hold on...doesn?t that mean the question should have been..

"Move to Kirkby or redevelop Goodison?"

The answer you?re looking for (as you start to develop donkey?s ears and bellow "Eeyore!") is, ironically, ?yes?

Do you want cream or custard?


Herr Merroid
23   Posted 25/06/2008 at 12:44:21

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Cash at bank and in hand / Overdraft position of EFC:
31/05/2005 = +£4.75m
31/05/2006 = +£3.41m
31/05/2007 = -£1.31m

Speculation as to the transfer kitty is a waste of time. The kitty will be based on a lot of sums and info which we have no access to. It will be complicated by numerous accounting issues.

What is clear is that, if the recent trend towards a cash negative position in the EFC audited financial statements is a continuing trend, it won’t be being funded out of EFC’s own cash.

Marc Williams
24   Posted 25/06/2008 at 12:48:49

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Dan, I don’t know about humble pie but the current position is more about Kenright wanting to ’ Have his cake & eat it ’.
I’m sure if he’d really worked 24/7 for investment we could stay in the city & consoildate futher with decent transfer funds. There have apparentley been offers but the deal has not been right for him
Its the bigger cut he’ll get by moving us to a susidised Kirkby developement thats the key.
Personally I see it as the final insult to us fans to present us with the ’hobsons choice’ of move or no transfer money.
Its only a choice in terms on their self interest NOT in the interests of EFC.

Anyways all this talk of pie & cake I’m off for lunch.
Tony Williams
25   Posted 25/06/2008 at 13:15:35

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It always tickles me how some fans latch on to certain news items and suggest they must be true, as it matches with their thoughts and completely shun others when they go against their ideals.

"Some media outlets say that how much David Moyes has to spend depends entirely on whether Destination Kirkby actually goes through"

That sentence says it all...read again "some media outlets". Please explain to me how these media people with their non existant sources are considered to be telling the truth? I mean the papers never embelish things or sensationalise stories do they?

I will wait and see what happens not start to panic because some journo comes out with a speculative piece on something he has no evidence on at all.
Ray Lupton
26   Posted 25/06/2008 at 13:21:29

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Its because the whole Kirkby scheme is built on a fabrication of lies, half truths, misinformation and creative accounting. It looks like the whole house of cards is coming crashing down around Bully beefs ears.

Cant wait!
Tom Campbell
27   Posted 25/06/2008 at 13:25:06

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If any of the Yes voters can guarentee that in 50 years time we wil have memories like this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6NyVUpmnU4M

Then I will happily go to watch Everton in Kirkby, Sadly I dont see it happening!
Chad Schofield
28   Posted 25/06/2008 at 13:07:12

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Can I just ask a question to those suggesting that should an investor could be waiting in the wings if DK goes ahead.

If you had the Millions to buy Everton, would you rather buy it before a deal had been made to move the club or after? I mean if you’re going to invest then how does putting your money into a deal which you pressumably do not have transparency on until you hand over the cash sound? It’s not like taking a risk and buying a car off of Ebay that youve never seen. It’s closer to buying a garage of cars, on one hand you can take it lock stock and barrel with the debt that the current owners have steadily increased whilst trying to fire fight their way in running it, or alternatively the current owners could be telling you to look past the existing stock as they’re just about to get their hands on a fucking Bat Mobile. Of course when you see what you’ve been promised as the "Bat Mobile" that every rockstar’s going to want and is going to push the garage onwards and upwards is nothing more than a Robin Reliant with a couple of blue LEDs, would you think "Fuck it, it’s only a few million and even though this stupid Bat Mobile thing’s put the garage in further debt and split not only their existing customers but also many of their potential customers" or would you look elsewhere.

What benefit would any investor get from going into a project almost blindly, based on the figures fed to them which have already changed? Why commit yourself to the burden of considerably more debt for something that you have not helped engineer? If we did get a super rich Suger Daddy do you not think that they would want to mould the project that KW has cack handedly smashed together? And so if they did change anything to DK, then wouldn’t the planners et al have to be involved again.

It doesn’t make any sense.
Tescos, Everton’s partner are not going to inject any more money into the club, they’re already helping us out enoug with funding this monstrosity. So are we likely to have local businesses, direct competition, to Tesco’s all singing all seling retail outlet ploughing in cash?
Perhaps it’ll be residential building contractors to build commuter appartments in steel and smoked glass splashing the cash for our summer signings... but hold on, we can’t get planning permisson on a fucking field, and Knowsley Council have bent over more than enough too - and that’s not even mentioning the bloody economy at present!
Richard Parker
29   Posted 25/06/2008 at 13:35:25

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I can only hope. Law of averages and all that.

Dan McKie
30   Posted 25/06/2008 at 13:44:35

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EJ, I would be more than happy if the plan got thrown out and the club decided to re-develop Goodison instead! My question was that would a move to Kirby be seen as ok if we got a new board with lots of cash out of it? To some it appears that it would not do, which is basically saying that the most important thing to them is staying in Liverpool and not Everton going forward. How do we know when redevelopment of Goodison became an option(if indeed it has)? It may be something new that has arisen since the vote. We had an exclusivity agreement with tesco which was probably because they were paying for the plans (there would have been no point for Everton otherwise)!
James Marshall
31   Posted 25/06/2008 at 14:00:25

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I know bugger all about the financial state of things or how it all pans with the Tesco deal etc, but I do know one thing - new stadiums cost a lot more money than we have and I think that says it all.

I don't want us to go to Kirkby, especially if it ends up being anything like the promo video/other or out of town stadiums, but sadly we?re hard-up and its the only real option as far as I can tell.

I know there are other ideas, but thats all they are, ideas.
Chad Schofield
32   Posted 25/06/2008 at 14:19:39

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James,

Sadly though many of those "ideas" seem to be considerably more thought out than our supposed "Plan". Visit http://www.destinationkirkby.co.uk/news.asp?articleid=12&forced=true
the all spin pro site... the News takes you to details of a meeting 04/04/08 where the "Details of how traffic would be managed around Everton Football Club?s potential new home at Kirkby". Read that and see if it’s a well thought out plan.
Then there was supposed to be a meeting 16/04/08... but thay haven’t updated the site.

Compare this to some of the ideas submited and/or drawn up.
paul
33   Posted 25/06/2008 at 15:14:12

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although worried about what possible moves we can make in the transfer window the media give the same "no money" storey or stadium smoke screen every year. what needsto be remembered is that the current chairman does not have money to put in, investors will only put so much in and unless they sell up which they wont until they have a huge offer that will only come with a new stadium things will always be the same. although BK has stated he will sell if someone with money comes up he wont.
James Marshall
34   Posted 25/06/2008 at 16:55:44

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Chad - I was alluding more to the point of financial backing; the only one that has any is Tescos. I’m sure the other ideas are well thought out, but they don’t have the financial clout to pull it off do they?
EJ Ruane
35   Posted 25/06/2008 at 16:25:50

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Dan - I genuinely don’t want to appear.. erm... ’abrasive’.

However there are certain things one has to point out are TOTAL BOLLOCKS, if indeed they are.

You say..

"... which is basically saying that the most important thing to them (no voters) is staying in Liverpool and not Everton going forward"

Sorry but this ’it’s one or the other’ spin, is total bollocks

Fact: It is ONLY a ’this or that’ situation, if you’re prepared to believe the spin from people who have PROVED they can’t be trusted?

You also ask "How do we know when redevelopment of Goodison became an option?"

Became?

IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN OPTION!

I repeat - it was only ’not an option’, if you believed people who PROVED they couldn’t be trusted to tell the truth?

Do you make a habit of believing people who continually make you promises and let you down?

Me neither (even if they’re ’good Evertonians’)

You say "It maybe something that has arisen since the vote"

You know what - you’re right!

Since the vote, here’s something that has ’arisen.

The entire badly planned thing might get called in.

And If it does?

Well, the deal dies and the people PAID to have a plan B (C..E..) realise they’re going to look like the incompetent, near-sighted fuck-wits they are.

So why now the first menton of ’possibly reconsidering redeveloping Goodison Park’? (by Ross)

Simple - pure desperation.

FFS - If you say’ there’s no plan B’ (and you don’t make a plan B) and your plan A ends up fucked, your choices are......limited.

Chad Schofield
36   Posted 25/06/2008 at 17:01:36

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James,

I appreciate what you’re saying, and it of course is one of the factors for calling DK the "Deal of the century". We were alledgedly going to pay "practically nothing" and get a shiny new stadium.

What has transpired is that we are going to pay, at very very least, £78M, and more than likely rising. The talk of selling GP and Bellefield, both of which we’d supposedly receive little from as they’re mortgaged to the hilt (less than £10M for the pair!), and now residential planing permisson’s been denied seriously reduces the potential land value anyway, really only leaves naming rights, which were grossly inflated given what Arsenal have received for their stadium.

Compare that with with the hair brained scheme to redevelop Goodison (http://www.scribd.com/doc/2259978/Goodison-For-Everton-Study)
, to a 55,000 seater (already 5,000 more than revised DK), where it could be done installments, with people more qualified than myself stating that it would be possible to do without a significant reduction in attendance.. you have to ask what the hell we are playing at.

Other proposals were not given thorough examination due to the exclusivity deal. And whilst KW may have recently said that they looked at nearly FORTY plans, I wouldn’t trust him as far as he could run unaided.
Roy Coyne
37   Posted 25/06/2008 at 19:43:51

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Spot on, Lyndon. Sadly there are people on here who are either naive or just shite stirrers and no matter how many times Kenwright lies or fails to mention the full facts, they believe him. It appears his daily contact with Mr Moyes is that good he didn?t know of the current problem. Otherwise, why would he make a statement that he wants his new signings bedded in early in the pre-season? What a way to run a club! Kenwright is a fraud.
Gavin Harris
38   Posted 26/06/2008 at 03:52:04

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What worries me sick is the thought of staying at Goodison Park.

Liverpool are building a super stadium next door and we do not have the funds to match them on our own. Imagine a scenario where potenial signings and supporters walk past the two stadiums and see the massive difference in looks and size. WE NEED A PARTNER and with the council caring fuck all about us and no major comapanies interested in mving into the area we are need to look elsewhere.

Now before you start stating me for supporting Kirby I do not support it. the last thing we should do is move out of liverpool and give the reds a golden opportunity to gloat by saying they are the only team in liverpool. Plus the designs are shocking, its an ugly cheap stadium which will do nothing to enhance the appeal of the club.

I think the answer is the Liverpool council. So far they have been shocking and provided no REAL alternatives to Kirby. We can’t we protest to them and FORCE them to come up with REAL sites and partners which we can consider. Secondly, the design of the stadium must be improved. Surely there are artchitects out there who can design a better looking stadium which can generate a great atmosphere? I know other projects include competitions for the best design and a reward to the architect?!

Basically DO NOT PROTEST AGAINST KIRBY BUT LIVERPOOL COUNCIL AND GET THEM TO OFFER A REAL ALTERNATIVE THAT THE CLUB CANNOT REFUSE.
Kevin Mitchell
39   Posted 26/06/2008 at 22:44:31

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Gavin, I don’t know where you live but you seem to be totaly out of touch with local issues here. Because the club jumped into an exclusivity deal with tesco’s they couldn’t or more realisticly wouldn’t speak to the council about any possible solutions , like for instance enlarging Goodisons footprint so we can redevelop.
I would direct your anger at Kenwright, the buck well and truely stops with him.
Gavin Harris
40   Posted 27/06/2008 at 08:03:20

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What have they been doing for the last 8 years? They could have done their own research behind the scenes and then presented the fuindings to everton before all this kicked off.

Secondly, just because they couldn’t talk to everton it doesn’t mean they cannot make a plan which everton could not refuse, i.e. a stadium in the city with a partner like Tesco.

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