The Mail Bag
Whatever happened to us?
Comments (13)
Some fans reaction to recent events have really made me question the future of the club — not in terms of what the manager or chairman are doing, but what the fans demand and expect from them.
In the 70s the fan base was united, we expected and demanded the best and even when we came close on a couple of occasions it was universally judged not good enough and two decent mangagers in Bingham and Lee paid the price. Both were clearly as good if not better then Mogadon Moyes.
Even if you allow for lower expectations because of the big four (ignore the fact that Arsenal and the shite are just ordinary teams as otherwise the truth will really hurt), some fans reaction to this summers transfer fiasco is pathetic.
We now have our 'big' signing in the bag (Christ, give me strength) and can expect 'one or two' more utility players, including by all accounts the possibility of signing the current laughing stock of Old Trafford.
Moyes and Kenwright must survey this situation and think you actually can fool most of the people most of the time. Where is the squad strengthening we were promised (3 players down and counting), where is the player who will improve the overall quality of the squad - Koumas anyone? God forbid but where is the player who will get us on the edge of our seats.
The end of last season was great but it can't disguise the fact that for long periods the quality of football was amongst the worst ever seen at Goodison
I despair at fellow blues who embrace the slow and steady philosophy of Moyes as in reality it means managed decline.
As the likely lads used to say, whatever happened to us?
Don't even get me started on voting in favour of Kirkby — now that really would have led to violence in the 70s but never mind, close your eyes and hope for the best, eh?!
John Doolan, Posted 05/07/2007 at 21:33:44
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Ted Carew
2 Posted 05/07/2007 at 23:53:00
2 Posted 05/07/2007 at 23:53:00
"Bingham and Lee ... were clearly as good if not better then (sic) Mogadon Moyes."
What?! I don’t bloomin think so. "Cearly", says who! Ray Charles?
I remember Gordon Lee. Miserable so and so. He’s the guy who got rid of Dave Thomas and then publicly slagged-off Big Bob when his goals dried up. Dur!!!!
Lee was one of the most dour managers ever (and not just at EFC) and spoke of nothing but work rate etc.. The biggest impact he ever had at the club, IIRC, was increasing the number of people on the treatment table. There was clearly something wrong with his training regime. I was delighted when we finally got shut. I am not however, so keen to see Moyes go. No sir!
What?! I don’t bloomin think so. "Cearly", says who! Ray Charles?
I remember Gordon Lee. Miserable so and so. He’s the guy who got rid of Dave Thomas and then publicly slagged-off Big Bob when his goals dried up. Dur!!!!
Lee was one of the most dour managers ever (and not just at EFC) and spoke of nothing but work rate etc.. The biggest impact he ever had at the club, IIRC, was increasing the number of people on the treatment table. There was clearly something wrong with his training regime. I was delighted when we finally got shut. I am not however, so keen to see Moyes go. No sir!
Keith Glazzard
3 Posted 06/07/2007 at 00:48:00
3 Posted 06/07/2007 at 00:48:00
Yes Ted, that’s how I remember the 70’s too. It’s all a bit hazy now, but didn’t Bingham sign Duncan McKenzie, was replaced by Gordon the moron, who sidelined the ’flair player’ (and how) as quickly as he could?
Without looking up the statistics, aren’t we talking about a long period of decline here which was broken by the Kendall/Harvey axis of the 80’s?
If we continue the progress we have achieved since Moyes came through the door for the next five years, there will be limits to our success.
And John you’re right - it hasn’t always been pretty. Neither is dental treatment, but in the end you come out smiling.
Without looking up the statistics, aren’t we talking about a long period of decline here which was broken by the Kendall/Harvey axis of the 80’s?
If we continue the progress we have achieved since Moyes came through the door for the next five years, there will be limits to our success.
And John you’re right - it hasn’t always been pretty. Neither is dental treatment, but in the end you come out smiling.
Tony Towers
4 Posted 06/07/2007 at 07:49:18
4 Posted 06/07/2007 at 07:49:18
Since the premier league has started we have seen EFC rooted in the bottom half of the league.
That was until Mr Moyes turned up at the club. In the last three seasons we have finished in the top six and qualified for Europe twice.
That has got to be a testimony to how much the club and the team have improved under Moyes.
If we can finish top five next year have a good European cup run and possibly win a domestic cup I will say that Moyes has definatley built a team for the future.
However, I do no feel that Moyes is the man that can take us to the next level after that, i.e. Championship contenders.
That was until Mr Moyes turned up at the club. In the last three seasons we have finished in the top six and qualified for Europe twice.
That has got to be a testimony to how much the club and the team have improved under Moyes.
If we can finish top five next year have a good European cup run and possibly win a domestic cup I will say that Moyes has definatley built a team for the future.
However, I do no feel that Moyes is the man that can take us to the next level after that, i.e. Championship contenders.
John Holmes
5 Posted 06/07/2007 at 08:13:00
5 Posted 06/07/2007 at 08:13:00
Why don’t you think Moyes can take us to the next level? He hasn’t had the opportunity to prove or disprove that so far. By your own admission he has built a team for the future which surely is the first step towards that next level.
This season will be a big one for him as a manager. He needs to break the boom and bust cycle but he also needs to show us that, now he has a team with quality players of his own choosing (everyone in the squad was signed or re-signed by Moyes now) he needs to show he can lift them from battling over-achievers to a dominant force.
Obviously this won’t be an instant transformation but the expectations on Moyes are different now and he needs to show different abilities. At least give him the chance to try and do so.
This season will be a big one for him as a manager. He needs to break the boom and bust cycle but he also needs to show us that, now he has a team with quality players of his own choosing (everyone in the squad was signed or re-signed by Moyes now) he needs to show he can lift them from battling over-achievers to a dominant force.
Obviously this won’t be an instant transformation but the expectations on Moyes are different now and he needs to show different abilities. At least give him the chance to try and do so.
Richard Dodd
6 Posted 06/07/2007 at 09:11:43
6 Posted 06/07/2007 at 09:11:43
How I agree with some of the comments above!Comparisons with pre-Premier seasons have absolutely no significance in today?s football. Like most younger Evertonians, I yawn when ?old timers? start on this boring rubbish. Yes, they were lucky to enjoy all those perfect winters when the Blues won every match in the most modern stadium in the land and were guided by managers who never made a bad signing or team selection. But leave it there... in the past, please.
As far as today goes, most of us feel the Club is in pretty good shape. If, as stated elsewhere, there is now a ?Big Five?, we are next in line ? top of the great pile of ?old fashioned? clubs whose owners do not believe in saddling their charges with huge debt just to chase a dream. Certainly there is a desire to keep at that level and our very capable manager is confident that ?Jags? and one or two more of his ilk will be all we want to do so. Off the field, Chairman Bill has skillfully plotted a route whereby a new stadium can be provided without in any way over-burdening the Club?s finances.
The truth is that 95% of Evertonians buy into this great plan to maintain our very coveted position (?Best of the Rest?,if you must) and are happy to let the experts get on with doing an excellent job.
As far as today goes, most of us feel the Club is in pretty good shape. If, as stated elsewhere, there is now a ?Big Five?, we are next in line ? top of the great pile of ?old fashioned? clubs whose owners do not believe in saddling their charges with huge debt just to chase a dream. Certainly there is a desire to keep at that level and our very capable manager is confident that ?Jags? and one or two more of his ilk will be all we want to do so. Off the field, Chairman Bill has skillfully plotted a route whereby a new stadium can be provided without in any way over-burdening the Club?s finances.
The truth is that 95% of Evertonians buy into this great plan to maintain our very coveted position (?Best of the Rest?,if you must) and are happy to let the experts get on with doing an excellent job.
James McPherson
7 Posted 06/07/2007 at 09:33:53
7 Posted 06/07/2007 at 09:33:53
Mr Dodd,
Your assertion around the futility of looking back at "more glorious" days is as interesting as it is contradictory.
One of the bedrocks of your idolisation of all things Kenwright, if I am not mistaken, has been him being a man who is steeped in the culture and history of EFC.
I hope this is true, else it will be the dismantling of the final tenet of belief that I now share with our Chairman.
Sometimes, sadly, history is all we have left. Even Sky (try as they might, mind)can’t re-write the record books.
At the end of one of those games -you know them, there are on average two a season - where we get an unexpected result against superior opposition, the rallying anthem of "If you know your history" will boom across the park.
No one sings louder than Kenwright...the showman...your showman.
Before your next post..take a step back and think on about what you might have said previously.
Maybe a case of "if YOU know your history" Mr Dodd?
Your assertion around the futility of looking back at "more glorious" days is as interesting as it is contradictory.
One of the bedrocks of your idolisation of all things Kenwright, if I am not mistaken, has been him being a man who is steeped in the culture and history of EFC.
I hope this is true, else it will be the dismantling of the final tenet of belief that I now share with our Chairman.
Sometimes, sadly, history is all we have left. Even Sky (try as they might, mind)can’t re-write the record books.
At the end of one of those games -you know them, there are on average two a season - where we get an unexpected result against superior opposition, the rallying anthem of "If you know your history" will boom across the park.
No one sings louder than Kenwright...the showman...your showman.
Before your next post..take a step back and think on about what you might have said previously.
Maybe a case of "if YOU know your history" Mr Dodd?
Keith Glazzard
8 Posted 06/07/2007 at 11:03:34
8 Posted 06/07/2007 at 11:03:34
Richard - I might agree with you if we ’old-timers’ were just reliving old memories. If there’s a place for that its in a corner of the pub about ten on a Friday night (and whatever happened to the War Cry? - sorry Ric, got carried away there).
No, the point about past times on these pages is to keep some sort of perspective. Unless we ’know our history’ we can end up believing what we read in the papers, often what other - rival - clubs want people to believe about us.
Opinion is free, but just because someone says something sincerely doesn’t make it true, and sometimes the record has to be put straight. I send emails to my paper of choice if I think a journalist has been unfair - or more often when EFC’s achievements have simply been ignored, and I’ve had some results.
And Richard, you might like to consider these lines written in the 1930’s - yes, even before my time -
’Speak your truth quietly and clearly and listen to others,
Even the dull and ignorant, they too have their story’.
No, the point about past times on these pages is to keep some sort of perspective. Unless we ’know our history’ we can end up believing what we read in the papers, often what other - rival - clubs want people to believe about us.
Opinion is free, but just because someone says something sincerely doesn’t make it true, and sometimes the record has to be put straight. I send emails to my paper of choice if I think a journalist has been unfair - or more often when EFC’s achievements have simply been ignored, and I’ve had some results.
And Richard, you might like to consider these lines written in the 1930’s - yes, even before my time -
’Speak your truth quietly and clearly and listen to others,
Even the dull and ignorant, they too have their story’.
Richard Dodd
9 Posted 06/07/2007 at 11:53:30
9 Posted 06/07/2007 at 11:53:30
Well,perhaps I fit into your latter categories but unlike so many who post here,I live in the present and ENJOY supporting my club as it is....today!
Brian Waring
10 Posted 06/07/2007 at 12:42:23
10 Posted 06/07/2007 at 12:42:23
Ted Carew,I had to laugh at you comment about Gordon Lee." Lee was one of the most dour managers ever and spoke of nothing but work rate etc" You know what? You could have made that statement about Moyes as well.
Ted Carew
11 Posted 06/07/2007 at 16:26:42
11 Posted 06/07/2007 at 16:26:42
Thing is Brian, I remember both managers and there’s no doubt in my mind that Lee was in a class of his own. I don’t recall significant numbers of player injured in training under Moyes, but it seemed to be a regular occurrence under Lee. And remember, we’re talking about a man who publicly slagged-off a legendary centre forward for not scoring enough after he (Lee) got rid of one of the best crossers of a ball ever to don the Royal Blue. Go figure. Moyes is hardly the laughing cavalier but to claim Lee was ?clearly? superior as a manger to Moyes (as the originator of this piece did) is tosh. Did Lee ever win ?managers? manager of the season? twice, I don?t think so!
Harry Hughes
12 Posted 06/07/2007 at 16:39:05
12 Posted 06/07/2007 at 16:39:05
Im 24 unfortuntley not all of us are old enough to remember the "good ol days" therefore Moyes is clearly they best thing to ever happen to Evertin in my lifetime, all i remember prior is season of struggling against relagation year in year out bar cup win in ’95.
it seems those who do not appreciate the brilliant job moyes has done in turning the club full circle are those who want to believe its still 1970
it seems those who do not appreciate the brilliant job moyes has done in turning the club full circle are those who want to believe its still 1970
Keith Glazzard
13 Posted 08/07/2007 at 01:30:47
13 Posted 08/07/2007 at 01:30:47
Harry - I can’t speak for the rest, but I’d say we old timers remember the bad years in there with the good ones. Which is why we don’t want the bad ones back, and why we sometimes express our views on these pages.
My take is very similar to your check on recent history. If 6th and a Euro campaign is the worse we do in the next five years, we’d all swap that for what we could look forward to ten, or even five years ago.
On his record so far, David Moyes will be up with the best when the history books are written. I think he said it would take about five years to be strong enough. Let’s hope he was right, and we take them all on and win.
The way I look at the squad today is that it is stronger than it has been for many years - in terms of quality. Backup to first choice is a bit patchy in some areas of the field, but not bad. The injuries/ suspensions factorsays bring more in, but who? Why? How much? I’m quite happy to leave that to DM as any good coach considers over the breakfast.
My take is very similar to your check on recent history. If 6th and a Euro campaign is the worse we do in the next five years, we’d all swap that for what we could look forward to ten, or even five years ago.
On his record so far, David Moyes will be up with the best when the history books are written. I think he said it would take about five years to be strong enough. Let’s hope he was right, and we take them all on and win.
The way I look at the squad today is that it is stronger than it has been for many years - in terms of quality. Backup to first choice is a bit patchy in some areas of the field, but not bad. The injuries/ suspensions factorsays bring more in, but who? Why? How much? I’m quite happy to leave that to DM as any good coach considers over the breakfast.
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1 Posted 05/07/2007 at 23:31:08