The Mail Bag
Reality Bites
Comments (25)
Now I know everyone would love us to be signing the best players in the world and I would love that as well, but reality has to step in a some stage right?
Everton are not a top European club and never have been. Domestically we're historically successful but not for many years, and as a result top European players know nothing about us and don't have any much inclination to want to join us as a result.
Any player coming to this country would prefer to live in London or play for Utd or Liverpool due to their more illustrious history.
I'm increasingly finding that an awful lot of Evertonians are quite short-sighted when it comes to transfer targets and the reality that Everton are not the big club that we like to think we are, at least not in European terms.
On that basis, players like Cahill, Arteta, Neville & Jagielka are the best we can hope for at this stage. Some European exposure next season will help to raise our profile on the continent and hopefully attract more attentnio/players for the following season.
It's time we all took a step back, stopped thinking with the heart and realised that without seeing the bigger picture we'll never reallt attain the level that we'd like.
Everton are an ex-Big Club moving in the right direction, we just have to be patient. We have a fine young manager who I believe does everything with the right intentions; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't ? either way, he and the team should be roundly supported on all fronts.
Allan Hobbs, Posted 06/07/2007 at 12:22:33
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Harry Hughes
2 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:34:21
2 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:34:21
Allejuah!!. Amen to that. some sense at last. bravo. well said. everyone else, all you snipers please take note.
Tony Marsh
3 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:23:54
3 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:23:54
Some great points that really hit home the grim truth Allan.I dont think most sensible Evertonians
think of us as being a big club any more and certainly not on the European stage.
My main gripe is not about how big we should or could become but the way we go about things when opportunities arise for us to move up the ladder a rung or two.
There is no doubt that Kenwright
is holding the club back in one of the most important era,s in English football.The money and foriegn investors coming in to the game is giving the teams out side the big 4 a chance to gate crash the party
As for David Moyes he has done a decent enough job in making things more stable but for me lacks the killer instinct to make him a top manager.The 04/05 season being painfull example.
The truth is unless Kenwright goes and we get some real money coming in to the club and a manager who is a winner we will always be going sideways instead of forwards.Thats why I personally get so frustrated.
think of us as being a big club any more and certainly not on the European stage.
My main gripe is not about how big we should or could become but the way we go about things when opportunities arise for us to move up the ladder a rung or two.
There is no doubt that Kenwright
is holding the club back in one of the most important era,s in English football.The money and foriegn investors coming in to the game is giving the teams out side the big 4 a chance to gate crash the party
As for David Moyes he has done a decent enough job in making things more stable but for me lacks the killer instinct to make him a top manager.The 04/05 season being painfull example.
The truth is unless Kenwright goes and we get some real money coming in to the club and a manager who is a winner we will always be going sideways instead of forwards.Thats why I personally get so frustrated.
Peter Laing
4 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:31:24
4 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:31:24
There is some basis for this assessment Allan but I would argue that Cahill and Arteta can be rightly classed as being in the world-class bracket. Cahill made the top 50 player’s in the world last season and Arteta continues to improve into one of the most gifted players in the EPL. Evertonians myopic view has been borne out of frustration and many years of poor leadership on and off the park, lack of vision and a dumbing down of aspirations. With David Moyes we have quite rightly a man at the helm who is aiming to make sustained progress and development, it does though come a time when we need to aim high and set our sights on player’s who can add quality to the side. Chelsea may have the money, Man United the prestige and Liverpool the historical success but if we are going to compete then we have to think ’big’.
Bluenose
5 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:51:57
5 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:51:57
Peter - I would agree with you ref Cahill and Arteta now, my comment was aimed more at when we signed them, Cahill was a relative unknown from the Championship and Arteta, though talented was untried in the main, young and well....he’d been playing in Scotland!
David Barks
6 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:44:31
6 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:44:31
Tony Marsh, a well written response by you. Reasoned, calm, I agree with some of it. I still don’t buy into the arguement that BK is holding the club back though. This Club has improved greatly under BK and Moyes. I think that BK is just a little more cautious with the bank account due to the financial situation the club had been in when he took over. He saw how difficult it was and long it has taken to right the ship. I’m not all for the Kirkby move, but want to see more information before I really feel passionately one way or the other.
In the past couple of seasons I think BK is starting to come out of his shell a bit. He splashed descent money on AJ and is putting money out their for improved contracts for Arteta and Cahill. We now have a very good nucleus in them and the likes of Lescott, Yobo, Jagielka even if you’re not overly thrilled by the signing, and some good youngsters. Lets hope he continues to come out a bit further, Riquelme maybe? I’m only joking on that last point, but maybe that proves you right somewhat Marsh. We do need to push on a bit, but I’m comfortable knowing that we are improving, maybe just not as quickly as you would like, but it is happening.
In the past couple of seasons I think BK is starting to come out of his shell a bit. He splashed descent money on AJ and is putting money out their for improved contracts for Arteta and Cahill. We now have a very good nucleus in them and the likes of Lescott, Yobo, Jagielka even if you’re not overly thrilled by the signing, and some good youngsters. Lets hope he continues to come out a bit further, Riquelme maybe? I’m only joking on that last point, but maybe that proves you right somewhat Marsh. We do need to push on a bit, but I’m comfortable knowing that we are improving, maybe just not as quickly as you would like, but it is happening.
Norman Merrill
7 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:53:47
7 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:53:47
Very good article Allan, and very sensible comments by all.
Erik Dols
8 Posted 06/07/2007 at 14:12:55
8 Posted 06/07/2007 at 14:12:55
And again BK gets the stick for NOT selling the club to some dodgy Asian thief or some yankee looking to drain all money out of the club.
Am I the only one who is really glad that we’re not taken over by foreign investment?
Am I the only one who is really glad that we’re not taken over by foreign investment?
Harry Marsden
9 Posted 06/07/2007 at 14:07:48
9 Posted 06/07/2007 at 14:07:48
My biggest criticism of D.M. was his failure to sign Robbie Keene. He seemed to have the field to homself but took so long to make a move Spurs changed their mind. A K is not a patch on Keene!
Mike N
10 Posted 06/07/2007 at 14:12:10
10 Posted 06/07/2007 at 14:12:10
I would have to agree with the article. (Im sure your reading my mind!).
Being a relative newbie to Toffeeweb i have looked on and read with great interest the comments posted in the mailbag for a month or so now.
I’ve already started noticing certain peoples point of view and their ways of expressing (Tony Marsh and Bluenose to name but a few!!!)
Tony, that is best comment you have made that i have read on here and i totally agree with you.
BK i feel has done a good job upto now but if foreign or english investment is knocking on the door lets take the next step to at least start to be a big club again.
Being a relative newbie to Toffeeweb i have looked on and read with great interest the comments posted in the mailbag for a month or so now.
I’ve already started noticing certain peoples point of view and their ways of expressing (Tony Marsh and Bluenose to name but a few!!!)
Tony, that is best comment you have made that i have read on here and i totally agree with you.
BK i feel has done a good job upto now but if foreign or english investment is knocking on the door lets take the next step to at least start to be a big club again.
Graham Nolan
11 Posted 06/07/2007 at 14:24:52
11 Posted 06/07/2007 at 14:24:52
I agree with Erik. I am glad that we are not in line to be bought by some stranger from America or Asia who has no interest in football or our club.
All of these investors are in it to line their pockets, simple as.
How gratifying will it be when we finish above the likes of Spurs & Newcastle despite having less resources than them!
All of these investors are in it to line their pockets, simple as.
How gratifying will it be when we finish above the likes of Spurs & Newcastle despite having less resources than them!
Steven May
12 Posted 06/07/2007 at 14:53:15
12 Posted 06/07/2007 at 14:53:15
I agree with everyone about the requirement for extra investment but there is an awful lot to be said for supporting one of the few "proper" clubs in the premiership. Real history, owned by locals and supporters, and supported by (predominantly) local, non-glory seeking fans. Be careful what you wish for you may just get it.
Short sighted blue!
13 Posted 06/07/2007 at 14:57:44
13 Posted 06/07/2007 at 14:57:44
Its fans like you lot what make Everton the bottom of the barrel club we are at the mo! We WERE a big club, but when we have a Chairman who doesn’t fund the team enough, a limited manager, and a fan base who are simply stupid, no wonder other clubs take the piss out of us. Liverpool - Torres. Everton - Jageilka. Says it all!
John Patrick McFarlane
14 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:00:04
14 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:00:04
Everton are a big club and always have been. Maybe they haven’t always managed to shine in Europe but to say we are not a big club is outrageous. The support for our club is incredible given the paucity of success and lack of decent football. I think BK has managed to hoodwink all and sundry into believing we are a club similar to Wigan, Bolton et al but it is simply not true. Most blues that I personally know want Everton to be mixing it with the Man Utd’s of this world whilst at the same time playing attractive football. I realise that money plays a significant role in this but it is not the be all and end all. Everton have been in decline of that there is no doubt, but the aspirations of the supporters that I know have never lowered. They realise that reality is always harsher than the dream, but without the dream what is the point. Maybe the realists are correct and Everton will never again be Kings of England maybe we will never again grace Wembley, but Everton will remain a big club as long as the supporters continue to live and breathe Everton FC in their tens of thousands.
Tony Marsh
15 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:15:49
15 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:15:49
Erik Dols.The problem with your anti Yankee or Asian money arguement is that the teams who have been taken over in this way have gone from strength to strength.
Chelsea.Russian Billionaire takes over Bingo.
Man Utd..Yankee Billionaire takes over.Bingo
Liverpool.Yankee Billionaires take over .Getting ready to shout Bingo.
Aston Villa,Man City. I dont see thier fans complaining to much either.
The truth is Eric takeovers are happening throughout the Premier League to all the big clubs and its these clubs that are doing the buisness on the pitch by bringing home the trophies.
Do you want us to miss out yet again?
Who were Chelsea before Abramovich came along?
The break away Man Utd fans who predicted doom and gloom for the club when Micheal Glazier took over look rather silly now after the Mancs lifted the league title again.
And to our lovely nieghbours with a brand new stadium on the way and signing world class strikers for £27 million. I bet those RS fans are hating every minute of this Yankee take over dont you?
I only wish we had those sort of problems to worry about mate.
Chelsea.Russian Billionaire takes over Bingo.
Man Utd..Yankee Billionaire takes over.Bingo
Liverpool.Yankee Billionaires take over .Getting ready to shout Bingo.
Aston Villa,Man City. I dont see thier fans complaining to much either.
The truth is Eric takeovers are happening throughout the Premier League to all the big clubs and its these clubs that are doing the buisness on the pitch by bringing home the trophies.
Do you want us to miss out yet again?
Who were Chelsea before Abramovich came along?
The break away Man Utd fans who predicted doom and gloom for the club when Micheal Glazier took over look rather silly now after the Mancs lifted the league title again.
And to our lovely nieghbours with a brand new stadium on the way and signing world class strikers for £27 million. I bet those RS fans are hating every minute of this Yankee take over dont you?
I only wish we had those sort of problems to worry about mate.
Rodger Armstrong
16 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:16:59
16 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:16:59
JP,
Agree that EFC remains a big club with a proud (if ya know your) history. What matters now more than ever is the future of our club. We see other clubs sell their soul to rich men from all four corners of the world in pursuit of short term quick returns. I like the fact that our Chairman is a lifelong fan, but time and again (as TM says) he misses the opportunity to take the club to the next level, close the gap just a bit on the Champions League Four. This is not just about cash, far from it. He lacks the commercial skill and the vision to make it happen and then tries to con us all with his quotes on "The Everton Way". As he’s proven he can’t do it himself, BK’s job has to be to find the right investor to take the club forward whilst protecting the history and tradition we all hold dear. I just don’t think he can or wants to let go, so for now "Nil satis nisi Top 6".
Agree that EFC remains a big club with a proud (if ya know your) history. What matters now more than ever is the future of our club. We see other clubs sell their soul to rich men from all four corners of the world in pursuit of short term quick returns. I like the fact that our Chairman is a lifelong fan, but time and again (as TM says) he misses the opportunity to take the club to the next level, close the gap just a bit on the Champions League Four. This is not just about cash, far from it. He lacks the commercial skill and the vision to make it happen and then tries to con us all with his quotes on "The Everton Way". As he’s proven he can’t do it himself, BK’s job has to be to find the right investor to take the club forward whilst protecting the history and tradition we all hold dear. I just don’t think he can or wants to let go, so for now "Nil satis nisi Top 6".
Ben Malone
17 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:46:35
17 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:46:35
Kenwright out. Bring back Peter Johnson, he really cared.
Dan Kimble
18 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:43:46
18 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:43:46
I like the fact that our Chairman is a lifelong fan, but time and again (as TM says) he misses the opportunity to take the club to the next level, close the gap just a bit on the Champions League Four.
WHAT? Renember us finish 17th, 13th 11th..... come on we are going players, but obviously we dont have as much money as some clubs. We are going to spent more money this season, no doubt. Last season we spent 15 million...
Have you forgotten that we with a silly squad actually managed to be in the top four three seasons ago?
We may not play the nicest football but im sure that will come I saw great improvement last season.
Foreign investment? does anyone actually know were it will all end? Lets just get a new stadium inside Liverpool with some capacity, keep our manager and chairman, sign some more Evertonians AND NR.1 get a european scouting network that actually works!
WHAT? Renember us finish 17th, 13th 11th..... come on we are going players, but obviously we dont have as much money as some clubs. We are going to spent more money this season, no doubt. Last season we spent 15 million...
Have you forgotten that we with a silly squad actually managed to be in the top four three seasons ago?
We may not play the nicest football but im sure that will come I saw great improvement last season.
Foreign investment? does anyone actually know were it will all end? Lets just get a new stadium inside Liverpool with some capacity, keep our manager and chairman, sign some more Evertonians AND NR.1 get a european scouting network that actually works!
Erik Dols
19 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:51:32
19 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:51:32
Tony, come on mate. Man Utd were a massive club before the takeover. I honestly believe they would have won the title without the takeover as well. Villa had an average midtable season, I don’t think fans are shouting bingo. Man City taken over by some guy who is accused of using his political power to increase his personal wealth, lets just wait and see what he does at City. The RS spent millions on strikers before the takeover - most of them are shite. I think Torres is a great striker and would have loved to see him come to us, but I’m not sure he’ll adapt to England.
The only example were a takeover immediately improved results ON THE PITCH is Chelsea. And if I am to believe all the stories, Chelsea have massice debts, if Abramovich would leave today, they would go bankrupt tomorrow.
We needed investment some five years ago. I really do not see the urge now. And I really do not see one of the clubs you mentioned bringing home trophies except for Chelsea, wo were the first club taken over by a billionaire. They just used their jump-start.
I don’t know if BK is the right thing for us right now, but I do know that I will feel fucked up when someone takes us over just to increase his own wealth. Or well, increase his own wealth in an unhealthy way. Earning a decent return on your investment is nothing but normal business, it’s the ’grab all you can and leave huge debts’-scenario that I fear.
The only example were a takeover immediately improved results ON THE PITCH is Chelsea. And if I am to believe all the stories, Chelsea have massice debts, if Abramovich would leave today, they would go bankrupt tomorrow.
We needed investment some five years ago. I really do not see the urge now. And I really do not see one of the clubs you mentioned bringing home trophies except for Chelsea, wo were the first club taken over by a billionaire. They just used their jump-start.
I don’t know if BK is the right thing for us right now, but I do know that I will feel fucked up when someone takes us over just to increase his own wealth. Or well, increase his own wealth in an unhealthy way. Earning a decent return on your investment is nothing but normal business, it’s the ’grab all you can and leave huge debts’-scenario that I fear.
James McPherson
20 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:40:41
20 Posted 06/07/2007 at 15:40:41
Whilst his over-use of expletives might not be to mine and other people’s taste, alleging that Tony Marsh is from the dark side is frankly absurd.
Having read his posts for some considerable time now, no one can doubt his passion for the club. Furthermore, you have to say he has been consistent too. Laudable in this flim-flam age.
Talking of flim-flam, I don’t agree with the majority of his views on Moyes but do stand squarely behind his comments on Kenwright.
It astounds me that people still view this man as a benign patrician - an admirable custodian of the club. I have no issue with him not having the money - we know multi-millionaires can’t cut it these days - that’s not his fault.
Moreover, it’s the duplicity and deceitful spin he regularly dishes out to the people that really matter - the fans. Done in the name of him keeping the keys.
Kings Dock, selling Rooney (saying it would never happen for less than £50M)NTL,Fortress, Russian Oligarchs, finding the one American billionaire who will not put serious money into the club - Kirkby potentially on the way...the list is endless.
With regard to Kirkby, to say that Kenwright is acting in anything other than self-interest is delusional. As for seeking investment 24/7 - I guess the naive amongst us ought to be made aware that this is an annual event taking place on the 24th July...not long now...but don’t hold your breath folks.
Having read his posts for some considerable time now, no one can doubt his passion for the club. Furthermore, you have to say he has been consistent too. Laudable in this flim-flam age.
Talking of flim-flam, I don’t agree with the majority of his views on Moyes but do stand squarely behind his comments on Kenwright.
It astounds me that people still view this man as a benign patrician - an admirable custodian of the club. I have no issue with him not having the money - we know multi-millionaires can’t cut it these days - that’s not his fault.
Moreover, it’s the duplicity and deceitful spin he regularly dishes out to the people that really matter - the fans. Done in the name of him keeping the keys.
Kings Dock, selling Rooney (saying it would never happen for less than £50M)NTL,Fortress, Russian Oligarchs, finding the one American billionaire who will not put serious money into the club - Kirkby potentially on the way...the list is endless.
With regard to Kirkby, to say that Kenwright is acting in anything other than self-interest is delusional. As for seeking investment 24/7 - I guess the naive amongst us ought to be made aware that this is an annual event taking place on the 24th July...not long now...but don’t hold your breath folks.
Pete Moore
21 Posted 06/07/2007 at 16:18:14
21 Posted 06/07/2007 at 16:18:14
I’m another glad we’ve not sold out to purchasers with questionable long term motives. Spending wisely is key, so I feel Jagielka will be a superb signing for us, in the short term and long term. As proved many times before, big money signings are no guarantee of success for any club. The kopites gloating over splashing 20 plus mil on Torres may not be so smug when Jags plays his part in snuffing out the red threat in the derby. Having a close knit, young, improving, talented TEAM (without fancy dan primadonna types) is the way to go. Onwards and upwards Evertonians!
Steve Claringbold
22 Posted 06/07/2007 at 16:48:58
22 Posted 06/07/2007 at 16:48:58
Foreign inverstors - Pah!!!
These people will come in piss their money against the wall, leave, and when we’ve got huge wage bills and adminstration costs we’ll end up bankrupt.
The way forward is to do it the way we are doing it. Buy players we can afford, under the wage structure we can afford and no more. If we can’t afford them we can’t buy them simple as.
Do we need a sugardaddy who is gonna ply loads of money into the club and then leave when he realises he isn’t making any cash? I think not.
These people will come in piss their money against the wall, leave, and when we’ve got huge wage bills and adminstration costs we’ll end up bankrupt.
The way forward is to do it the way we are doing it. Buy players we can afford, under the wage structure we can afford and no more. If we can’t afford them we can’t buy them simple as.
Do we need a sugardaddy who is gonna ply loads of money into the club and then leave when he realises he isn’t making any cash? I think not.
David Barks
23 Posted 06/07/2007 at 16:56:47
23 Posted 06/07/2007 at 16:56:47
Tony, as has already been pointed out, United were already a huge club winning titles before the Glazers. And Liverpool had their stadium okayed before the American takeover of them. They had nothing to do with the Stanley Park move or the big money signings that they had already been doing. With all their money they couldn’t score a goal against us last season.
Keith Glazzard
24 Posted 06/07/2007 at 16:13:05
24 Posted 06/07/2007 at 16:13:05
I’ve done my best to keep up, honest, and I find that people who disagree might agree with each other if only they used the same words in the same way.
"Investment" seems to cause the main culprit. The local butcher, baker etc used to make illegal payments to attract and keep players. I’m not sure how they could have expected to make a profit from that - what you (all of us) would normally hope for from an investment. Mind you, they might have wasted that money by paying it in tax, if they’d kept records, that is.
The term money-laundering (putting ill-gotten gains into respectable looking enterprises), came after these pillars of the community moved to the Costas. Just as asset-stripping was a mark of the Thatcher era. None of that these days, thanks be.
So what do we mean by investment? The right to make money from the deal, or a gift to the agents, solicitors and other pondlife that thrives around the game?
There’s nobody meaner than a rich man - that’s how he became, or stays, rich.
"Investment" seems to cause the main culprit. The local butcher, baker etc used to make illegal payments to attract and keep players. I’m not sure how they could have expected to make a profit from that - what you (all of us) would normally hope for from an investment. Mind you, they might have wasted that money by paying it in tax, if they’d kept records, that is.
The term money-laundering (putting ill-gotten gains into respectable looking enterprises), came after these pillars of the community moved to the Costas. Just as asset-stripping was a mark of the Thatcher era. None of that these days, thanks be.
So what do we mean by investment? The right to make money from the deal, or a gift to the agents, solicitors and other pondlife that thrives around the game?
There’s nobody meaner than a rich man - that’s how he became, or stays, rich.
Nick Entwistle
25 Posted 06/07/2007 at 18:18:36
25 Posted 06/07/2007 at 18:18:36
Re: Tony Marsh - Who were Chelsea before Abramovich came along?
It may not be fashionable to say but before the big red took over, Chelsea were often partakers in the champions league, championship contenders on a number of occaisions, European winners and semi finalists, had players such as Viali, Gullit, Zola, Desailly, Weah, Poyet, Le Bouef, Petrescu... erm Chris Sutton. Could take on the likes of AC Milan and win and also won the league cup and fa cup a few times as well. Oh and played some great football.
I’m not defending Chelsea on anything, but lets not talk bollocks...
It may not be fashionable to say but before the big red took over, Chelsea were often partakers in the champions league, championship contenders on a number of occaisions, European winners and semi finalists, had players such as Viali, Gullit, Zola, Desailly, Weah, Poyet, Le Bouef, Petrescu... erm Chris Sutton. Could take on the likes of AC Milan and win and also won the league cup and fa cup a few times as well. Oh and played some great football.
I’m not defending Chelsea on anything, but lets not talk bollocks...
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1 Posted 06/07/2007 at 13:13:34
Yes, I know what Nil Satis Nisi Optimum means, but I also see other teams like Newcastle pumping out money and sacking managers left right and centre to "satisfy the fans". Christ you only need to look at Leeds to see what can happen when the board overstretches.
DM can be frustrating, but he’s also done brilliantly given the resources at his disposal.
I have been worried about lack of size in the squad and signings but I still stand by IMWT and can’t wait for the season to start (with hopefully a couple of other players in).