VIEW FROM THE BLUE
A Blessing in Disguise
Evertonians find themselves in a peculiar situation today, wondering if the announcement over the immediate future of Destination Kirkby is the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning of Everton's part in the scheme.
Having been horribly divided for a year by the most important issue that the Club has faced in generations, supporters had been waiting with for weeks with bated breath for word of the Government's decision on the controversial proposal. When it abuptly came yesterday evening, over a month after the Government Office for the North West's initial deadline of 3rd July, the news that the scheme has been called in for public scrutiny brought no closure or semblance of finality to the issue.
Of course, it was never going to. Despite the assertion by recently-departed CEO Keith Wyness that the delay while the proposal spent anywhere between a year to 18 months under further scrutiny would likely force Everton to abandon their part in the scheme, no-one expected any immediate announcement by the remaining Board members to drop plans for a new purpose-built stadium in Kirkby.
Nevertheless, the reaction from fans from both sides of the fence has run the gamut from anger to gloating, bitterness to relief, with many treating the announcement as though it were somehow decisive. And it may well prove to be. Already facing a battle to find the £78m for their part of the Tesco-led £400m redevelopment of Kirkby town center, it's almost certain that, if and when the proposal gets the green light, the rising costs of construction in the interim will prove to be prohibitive for Everton.
That has provoked a furious reaction from some who voted "Yes" in last year's ballot who are now pointing accusing fingers at their counterparts on the "No" side, blaming them and Keep Everton In Our City for signing the club's death warrant and hastening the departure of manager David Moyes.
It's important to retain some perspective here. While the stadium may have been pivotal to Tesco's hopes of having their plans approved ? a sporting or leisure component was required to justify the size of the retail element of their plans for redevelopment and regeneration of Kirkby ? in the broad context of the Government's decision to call in the scheme, it (the stadium) was probably a small consideration.
So, without wishing to take anything away from KEIOC's increasingly measured and targeted opposition to Destination Kirkby, the suggestion from some quarters ? not least Professor Tom Cannon on local radio last night ? that the action group has somehow single-handedly denied Everton £15m in annual revenue is, quite frankly absurd and disingenuous in the extreme.
If Sir Terry Leahy's apparently close relationship with the sitting Government, Bill Kenwright's profile as a longtime financial backer of the Labour Party, and the last-minute pressure from local MPs like George Howarth and Peter Kilfolyle weren't enough to steer the proposal past the need for a public inquiry, it's ludicrous to suggest that a group of Everton fans could have played a decisive role in Hazel Blears' department's decision.
No, put simply, Destination Kirkby was called in because of its sheer size, its implications for the region as a whole, and the consequent objections from neighbouring retail interests and political entities. Tesco's proposal ? for which the stadium was a linchpin ? was for a development almost half the size of the £1bn Liverpool One development in a town of just 40,000 people and, as such, contravened local planning policy.
Similarly, it's an exaggeration to suggest, as some are, that the death of the Kirkby stadium ? if that is what yesterday's announcement eventually proves to be ? has somehow wiped away Everton's hopes of breaking into the top four and gaining foothold in the hugely lucrative Champions League. There may have been a chance of the new ground proving to be such a boon the club had the proposal turned out in reality to be anything close to what was promised by Wyness at the time of the vote, but as we've now seen it didn't.
A brand new, "world class" 50,000-seater stadium that would guarantee "up to £10m a year" in additional revenue from attendance alone for an initial outlay from Everton of just £15m may well have been something akin to the "deal of the century". Promises of additional revenue from non-football activities would have further bolstered the club's coffers and provided a platform from which to compete with the Sky Four.
Of course, as has since become abundantly clear ? but was pointed by many on this site from the outset ? Wyness's claims didn't hold up to close scrutiny. Frankly, they were far-fetched and a gross misrepresentation of what Everton stood to gain from participation in the scheme. Because when you look at what the proposed stadium in Kirkby actually boils down to, it bears little resemblance to the vision that was sold to the fans of an "effectively free" stadium.
In fact, as flippant as it sounds, it could be argued that the only similarity between what was put to the fans in the ballot brochure and the PR campaign that accompanied it and what went into the final planning application was that the ground would be in Kirkby. Furthermore, it doesn't now appear to offer much, if anything, more than could be attained by redeveloping Goodison Park.
The "world class" design dressed up in an inviting night-time scene with the now infamous "Batman lights"? It turned out that the darkness obscured the stadium's location on the end of Tesco's car park across the road from the shops themselves. Later, the entire bottom floor arcade underneath the stadium was scrapped from the plans, leaving something worryingly similar to The New Den or Southampton's St Mary's Stadium.
The catchment area of "four million" untapped northwest residents to whose doorsteps Everton FC would be six miles closer if they moved to Kirkby? A myth. The area Wyness described is shared not only by the likes of Wigan Athletic and Blackburn Rovers but also Rugby League; if they aren't Evertonians now, they're not any more likely to be in the future. Only success on the pitch or a truly magnificent stadium could hope to change that.
The best-served stadium in the country in terms of transport infrastructure? Debunked when it became apparent (i) that there would be no on-site parking for match-going fans ? instead, they would be coralled in the country's biggest park-and-ride scheme or forced to make the 30- to 45-minute walk from the Liverpool side of the M57; (ii) that the single-track rail line from Liverpool to Kirkby could handle just 4,000 people an hour; (iii) that a revived MerseyTram system serving Kirkby would either not be ready in time for the stadium's opening or may not ever come to fruition at all; and (iv) that the local bus service would not be able to handle the load required of it either.
The extra-football revenue generators? All but non-existent in the final reckoning. The pubs, bars, restaurants and clubs that could be incorporated into the stadium and were put forth as yet more reasons why a new stadium on a fresh retail development was so attractive never made it into the planning application. While the local council would be granted 100 free events a year at the stadium, the concerts and events that Wyness predicted would bring the club much-needed revenue at times when the stadium wasn't being used for football were expressly prohibited by the final proposals. Hopes that this "mid-level" stadium would be considered for England's bid for the 2018 World Cup when Liverpool's proposed structure would be bigger and have the added benefit of being in the City? Fanciful.
The additional and immediate £10m a year in revenue "for David Moyes's transfer kitty"? That would now be swallowed up by the debt Everton would have to take on to fund their £78m commitment, making it unlikely that any profit would be made from the stadium for many years. That's not to even mention the fact that Wyness's projection was based on the stadium selling out week-in, week-out and, he admitted, was only likely while the "new stadium effect" lasted, typically only a few seasons. It did not take into account the unknown numbers of objectors among the club's core match-going support who would stop going to games in protest at the club's move from the City.
So, when you deconstruct Destination Kirkby as it relates to Everton, it all appears to come down to increased seating capacity and new facilities, both of which could be attained by redeveloping Goodison Park... but with the added benefit of having the club in its traditional home in north Liverpool where it enjoys a mature, urban transport infrastructure, one of the largest percentages of walk-up fans, and perhaps the fastest post-game dispersal rate of any ground in the top flight.
And even if you're convinced that Destination Kirkby was Everton's key to the top four, you have to believe in the first place that the current Board could deliver on a £78m scheme when it failed so disappointingly with an even better opportunity at the Kings Dock for a mere £30m six years ago.
Kirkby was sold by Leahy, in a letter that many believe clinched the majority Yes vote for the club last August, on the basis of trust. He asked the fans to trust that the Board knew what it was doing and yet consistently, both before and since the day that open letter was splashed across the Official Site and the local press ? from the Rooney controversy and Kenwright's "absolutely definitely" speech on the eve of the 2004 transfer deadline, to the Fortress Sports Fund con and the successive broken pledges over Kirkby ? the club hierarchy has eroded much of the trust that Everton fans dared place in them. Even now, following an awful summer of waiting for reinforcements to be made to a threadbare squad, fans are asked to believe that transfer funds have been in place since May and were unaffected by Destination Kirkby either way.
As frightening as our club's current predicament appears to be, it's hard to accept the idea that the end of Everton's plans in Kirkby spells certain disaster as Destination Kirkby always seemed to be a by-product of the club's financial woes rather than the solution to them.
I remain convinced that it was a short-term fix with no guarantee of success that would have had damaging long-term effects on the club. Cries that "luddite No voters" will be the catalyst that forces David Moyes out of the club now that a resolution to the stadium problem appears to have been set back untold years are all predicated on the assumption that Kirkby would have provided the funds needed to fund his transfer ambitions.
At the projected £10m a year ? or half of what Sporting Lisbon want for Joao Moutinho ? that was never going to be the case. Only qualification for the Champions League or a takeover by a billionaire investor could hope to provide the £20m - £30m annually that he would realistially need... and that's assuming Moyes would even be at Everton by the time the new stadium opened in 2012.
Likewise, citing Kirkby as a shortcut to a big-money takeover is a short-term, quick-fix view that fails to take into account the fact that over the long term, a mediocre stadium in a provincial town is not the ideal foundation on which to try to build a footballing dynasty. It's no accident that Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham, Everton and Aston Villa, the biggest and most successful clubs in English history are all homed in major cities while the likes of Coventry (whose Tesco experiment is an ominous precedent for the Blues), Leicester and Southampton, all of whom banked on new stadia transforming their fortunes, have sunk into the lower divisions.
Destination Kirkby may be under threat and Everton's part in the project may soon be over but, far from sounding the death knell for the club, it offers an opportunity to re-evaluate the club's position with regard to either Goodison Park or relocating elsewhere. By exposing the precarious nature of the club's current financial situation under the current regime (rather than masking them as approval yesterday of Destination Kirkby arguably would have done), it may also hasten inward investment to Everton, either by way of a takeover, through capital investors or a rights issue.
Who doesn't prefer the idea of having a Blue in charge of Everton? Someone who understands the effect of a simple act like painting the pitch-side gravel blue or the pride-swelling impact had by the removal of the advertising hoardings from the Bullens Road stand to expose the old Archibald Leitch criss-cross design that graces photographs of Goodison legends all the way back to William Dean?
Who doesn't fear the unknown of foreign ownership and the risks associated with unfamiliar hands on the tiller?
But if Kirkby was the limit of the current Board's power then the proposal is better to have been killed off now ? even with the apparent short-term risks it implies ? rather than putting the club on what many fans believe would have been an irrevocable slide towards mediocrity and the slow death of everything that makes Everton FC one of the world's greatest footballing institutions.
Reader Comments
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2 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:06:48
On a seperate note, self-evidently, Ian Ross needs to go on Varied Press Release Writing 1.1
3 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:12:16
4 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:04:41
5 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:10:50
Over Kirkby they generally take an emotive stance full of false prediction and ’not wanting to go backwards’ arguments.
6 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:19:00
7 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:25:22
Whilst I agree with a lot of what you said LL, I have to point out there was a vote and the majority voted Yes.
After listening to some of the stuff on Radio Merseyside last night questioning the validity of the vote, it angers me greatly so I just thought I’d bring it up.
Carry on....
8 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:12:32
And also the end of the slanging matches betwen Evertonians
By the way is anyone concerned by us seemingly blowing what dough we have on another diddy midfielder.
This Portuguese lad is about 4 ft tall.
We need some strength in the middle to fill the hole Carsley left.
9 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:25:25
10 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:26:28
The business at the EGM will be tightly constrained by the agenda and will solve absolutely nothing.Nobody in their right mind would buy the club in the state it’s in.To me,the only hope is that.........
Fuck it ,there is no hope!
11 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:08:47
12 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:37:35
13 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:33:49
Alot of the article is well argued and many, even Yes voters will have to agree with some of the flawed arguments put forward for the Kirkby project. I do however get very frustrated when people, mainly no voters and KEIOC fans, glibly state that hopefully this will now "hasten inward investment" pray tell from were???
Like or loathe him BK has said from day one that the club is for sale to anyone who can bring in real money and has the best interests of Everton at heart. Not one sniff in 5 years. So we lose Kirkby and suddenly we become a better investment opportunity - get real!
If I had millions to invest in a football club would I take on a club that desperately needs a new stadium, has large debts, an average home gate of around 36,000 and, lets be quite clear here, is on the doorstep of a club known around the world who are just about to get a shiney new stadium of their own - Answer NO. Add to this the non existent support of the City Council and the fact that we do not have the funds to build a new ground on our own and Bingo.
I am desperately down to-day, not particularly because I am a great fan of Kirkby, but because it may have made us alot more attractive to investers. I can now see Moyes walking, players leaving in January because we need the money and performance being seriously affected.
Good thing for KEIOC though - at least Liverpool fans will not be able to sing one club on city, instead it will be one city one premeire club.
14 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:40:07
Whilts this was undoubtedly the best outcome long term my only concern is that this may or may not close any funding DM had at his disposal and that he could walk. I hope I’m wrong.
15 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:27:01
Even if you were FOR the move, you simply cannot contest that DK was a pig-in-a-poke on a grand scale, based on the many valid reasons outlined above
BK would do well to read something like this to understand how many fans feel on this matter. No doubt, the above points will be raised at the EGM.
Once again, BK will be under the spotlight for the wrong reasons and I think it’s about time he started behaving like a chairman. I’m not going to hold my breath though.
As the article alludes to, it’s major investment we need now. Change of ownership, complete restructuring from top to bottom. And don’t hit me with this argument that new investment was dependent on the new stadium. The examples of Blackburn, Villa, Portsmouth, West Ham, Spurs show that investment can be sought and obtained. There is something seriously rotten going on at top level if the great institution that is Everton FC cannot do similar
16 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:06:04
Where to now?
Ordinarily I would say to stay where we are and concentrate on what we do on the pitch aiming for consistent Champions League qualification - well a few years on the trot would be nice. Then use our new found money from our CL experience to take the next step as far as stadium redevelopment/move and/or club sale.
Sadly it seems that we cannot even raise the funds to bring in the players we so desperately need to help us achieve that.
It is quite apparent that our post Christmas results have been poor year on year and this is because our squad is just too small to cope with the number of games any team with hopes of success can possibly cope with. We are very short on player, not just good first team regulars but decent squad players too.
I personally do not think that Bill Kenwright is the bad man that so many posters portray. BK is a man who was in a position to try to save the club he so clearly loves but does not have the financial clout to compete with the other top 8/10 clubs. So far under his ownership the results on the pitch have been much better than a club of our financial status could expect and yes David Moyes has played the major part in that but so too in his way has BK. Yes he has made mistakes but I would like to meet the person who has never made any mistakes.
Why we could not get the money for Kings Dock I will never know but I think it will probably always be a big regret to all Evertonians as it did truly look a world class offering ? but it was only another EFC pipe dream. Everton will not fade away to insignificance because it looks like we are not going to Kirkby.
People voted yes for Kirkby because the sales patter was good. But yes voters should not be castigated for voting yes, no more so than those who voted (more than once) for Tony Blair and his wonderful!!
Maybe BK will have to reappraise his own situation and change his views on who he is willing to sell to. Is there a mega rich Evertonian out there who is willing to put his wealth where his heart is? As much as I would like there to be I very much doubt it. So does he sell to a non-Evertonian? Haven?t we been there before? Selling is the only option, but who would buy the club in its present state? I Wish I knew the answer.
Everton are not down and out nor will we ever be if we put behind us the vitriolic over the top bickering and stick together and get behind the team.
COYB
17 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:08:17
18 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:12:53
1. The economic benefits argument of Kirkby was flawed from Day 1 (and more so since commodity price increases, cost of borrowing, weaknesses of location etc)
2. That the whole thought process of moving to Kirkby (for whatever reason) was short term and strategically inept.
Whether it is through inward investment or a rights issue, everything says channel money into the team, retain Moyes and continue steady progress and either get lucky and break in the Top 4 in a season where 1 of 4 underperforms (I still think unlikely but conceivable) or watch the impending recession give one of Chelses, Arsenal or Liverpool a problem over the medium term (next 3-5 years).
19 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:25:41
From an ’outsiders’ perspective, I think the fact that the scheme was called in clearly illustrated that fundamentally the government saw something wrong (evidence maybe) and stood their necks out to investigate further. They don’t act like this on a whim. It’s so easy to blame No voters or KEIOC but that would undermine the authority, power and objectivity of the government.
To Yes voters: the underlying problems of DK are of a magitude of government scale. No just from sentimental old farts.
Anyway, from what Ian Ross spoke, we do have money to sign players right? DK and signing players are not connected right? So where’s the fucking players?
20 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:26:22
KEIOC were an organisation that were used as a magnet for those, like me, that didn?t have as much issue with the location but did with the alleged ?Deal of the Century?. It wasn?t all about Kirkby. The funding, infrastructure, benefits etc were never anywhere close to reality from Day One of the infamous Tesco donating £50 million, hastily denied by Tesco... Rat, smelled.
So, as disingenious as you think No voters may be today, the post is valid. When scrutinised, the benefits to EFC were minute considering the upheaval and rifts caused by these proposals.
In light of the announcement, and trawling a lot of EFC-related sites, I have to say how embarrassed I am to see so many who had not had the decency to read the available planning applications etc to see for themselves how bad this idea was.
21 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:37:09
It’s so bloody obvious that what the fans voted for is not what is now being offered. We are so used to successive governments producing pre-election manifestos that are utter bollocks and their subsequent renaging on all the promises within.
Being inured to it doesn’t make it right
I hope this exclusivity agreement excuse for doing F’ all is now defunct and we can put pressure on our elected reps and EFC to do there jobs and start working together. (naivety rules OK?)
This latest quote from Arthur Spokesperson, EFC, is what we’re up against already
’It is important to stress that this decision does not spell the end of the Destination Kirkby project’
22 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:39:02
I wonder could any of the naive club give us a similarly reasoned piece on how Kirkby would financially benefit us to the tune of being a ’silver bullet’ against the top four...
a year later and I’m still waiting for this argument to be validated..
23 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:48:59
24 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:49:48
Well done.
25 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:52:05
COYB
26 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:51:28
Moving to Dublin?
You say "no foreigner is interested in owning us" how do you know- that is what BK says. BK also says noone invests in Football clubs these days;
So apart from (in last 5 years alone);
Man U, Cheslea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Villa, City, Spurs, Portsmouth, Newcastle, West Ham, Sunderland, Derby - BK is correct. No foreigners want to invest in football.
TOTAL BULLSHIT.
BK didnt want outside investment into the club because it would dilute his own power and strangle hold. He just borrowed and borrowed from Friends until he ran out of friends. The consequences of all this?
The investors moved on to othr clubs,
We have no money to spend - despite qualfiying for Europe 3 years in the last 5,
We chased a lame duck of a Stadium proposal because we didnt have the finances to do anything else.
Thanks Bill,
27 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:32:40
Whatever your personal belief on the proposed relocation issue the board of Everton has an obligation to take decisions that are beneficial to the club and its shareholders, not Tesco, Knowsley or indeed for the personal benefit of the individual board members.
What was proposed last year left many people confused, the finances did not appear to add up and the benefits to the club and its fans appeared to diminish on a daily basis, yet the fans were asked to vote with there head and not with there heart on this major decision. The subsequent publication of the DTZ report, an inclusive element of Tesco?s application, highlighted the facts surrounding Everton?s involvement and the stadium; it clearly wasn?t what was promised.
The time has arrived for Everton to cease the theatrical spin, start taking highly evaluated decisions for the benefit of the club and stop treating its fans with the contempt they simply do not deserve. A simple observation; following last nights bad news there will be an attempt today or tomorrow to mask this with some good news.
Lets hope the club?s PR department stop talking about non-existent investors; whilst others clubs have interested parties that have names, Everton have generic American, Indian, Russian and Dutch that are conveniently anonymous individuals that are never ultimately revealed.
Let?s hope that the club enter into meaningful dialog with LCC and other interested parties; the recent appointment of Robert Elstone may herald a new era of real approachability and an end to one that systematically misinformed the fans leading to a split in our ranks between those who question the board and those who believe the board.
And finally let?s hope that supporters can put their differences aside on the Kirkby issue and demand action, in whatever form is necessary, to move the club forward in a sensible, innovative and deliverable manner.
28 Posted 07/08/2008 at 10:09:41
29 Posted 07/08/2008 at 10:11:16
30 Posted 07/08/2008 at 10:12:48
Nobody really cares WHY it was called in, most people just want to know where we go next with no apparent "plan b". You can come up with excuse after excuse about why it was called in, it is pretty irrelevent. WE JUST WANT TO KNOW WHERE OUR CLUB IS GOING NEXT. (and dont give me the Goodison Park rufurb cos there is more chance of the Amy Winehouse getting clean!!!)
31 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:39:48
Yes, I’m pleased with the decision to call the project in, but it’s more a sense of relief I feel than anything. As has been pointed out here and elsewhere, this decision was NOT made due to the efforts of groups such as KEIOC - the project must have serious flaws in it for this decision to have been made, as these things are looked at dispassionately by those who make these decisions.
For me, the project was always wrong from day one, with a complete lack of detail (again - the only "details" I have seen have been from alternative proposals) and the fact that the project was scaled down significantly (e.g. no concerts, etc.) with no official mention of this to fans etc. indicates to me just how desperate the club were.
Not to have a go at them, but those who have admitted to voting Yes have never been able to demonstrate to me and SOLID reasons for why they did so, other than the "feeling that we need to progress" - and the reason for this is that no SOLID information was ever provided - so how could they ?
I honestly think that if the ACTUAL project, as actually ended up being proposed (i.e. real costings, no concerts, no transport, etc. etc.) had actually been presented to the fans then the result of the vote would have been very very different.
Destination Kirkby was was always Desperation Kirkby to me, and I hope that now, somehow the rifts between the fanbase can be healed, the club can stop treating us like idiots, and between us we can all look at more realistic ways of moving our club forward - both on and off the pitch.
(PS - Great article Lyndon)
32 Posted 07/08/2008 at 09:43:13
Lets get on with steady improvement and lets make Goodison a fortress,We moan about the chairman ,manager , players etc. Lets do our bit to make Goodison special and maybe one day the yanks etc will milk the shite and the rest of them and we will be back to a level playing field.
33 Posted 07/08/2008 at 10:31:38
I hated the idea of going to Kirkby, I felt it was wrong for so many different reasons and am glad that it looks highly unlikely that we’ll move there now. To me Kirkby represented a path to guaranteed mediocrity.
There is no doubt in my mind that those in positions of power at EFC are not up to the job and the lack of transfer activity (apart from depatures... including Wyness) speaks volumes regarding our financial well-being.
Too often we have taken the option of the financial quick fix regarding matters off the field and Kings Dock was a golden opportunity missed that those in power should have been held accountable for.
I fear that Kenwright has nailed our future to the sinking ship of DK and there needs to be an urgent rethink... but Bill doesn’t seem to ’do’ rethinks.
Bear this in mind... we finished 5th in the financially strongest league last year. We almost reached a European Final, We were semi-finalists in a domestic cup competition... and we’re skint
How?
34 Posted 07/08/2008 at 10:17:24
After three votes (in 1997, 2000 and 2007) - all of which were recorded in the club’s favour - we are no further on in terms of a stadium solution. That fact in itself is why the call-in news is not a cause for celebration. Utterly wasted years.
And the fact that the club gained three majorities in its favour, but still hasn’t been able to progress on its plans, also demonstrates how distorted it is to blame groups like GFE or KEIOC for the demise (presumed) of each of the plans from the "Johnson Dome" to the King’s Dock to Kirkby.
The three plans failed because each of them was intrinsically flawed.
Everton has to get the next one right. If it is right we’ll all just know it. Instinctively. There won’t be any need for a vote.
This is the blank-sheet of paper moment (again). The club has an EGM coming up: it should use that forum as a force for good.
35 Posted 07/08/2008 at 10:01:31
on the Liverpool skyline at Kings Dock ....... that would’ve put the RS and their new ground well and truly in the shade ........ oh well.
36 Posted 07/08/2008 at 10:29:43
The answer is we are stuck where we are with the same amount of money coming in from the stadium. Sky money goes up but then it also does so for everyone else, and prices go up - no improvement in competative advantage overall.
We will now fight for 5th place with 5 better funded teams (Villa, Spurs, Newcastle, Portsmouth, City) and we cannot seem to attract better players to build on past progress.
We have the best asset of all 5 competitors - Moyes - but if we cant match his ambition or that of the top players (and Kenwright has just admitted we can’t) something will have to give.
37 Posted 07/08/2008 at 10:56:06
38 Posted 07/08/2008 at 10:37:14
What of the alternatives should it finally fail? A number have already been aired by the KEIOC group and others and all within the City boundaries. I have come back to live and work on Merseyside after many years away and am struck by the large acres of semi-derelict land, on former and little used dock locations, now owned by Peel Ports (an ambitious and PR oriented company) which suggest locations for a foorball club with deep roots, as Liverpool FC, in the world famous port city now celebrating its history and cultural achievements. Brian Towers
39 Posted 07/08/2008 at 11:02:47
Nice to see someone else that is on the same line of thinking that i am. I mentioned earlier i am not a yes nor no voter however, I cant see us progressing if we stay at G.P. And i have a horrible feeling that Mr Moyes is along the same line of thinking and that is why he still has an unsigned contract in his "in tray". I hope there is a silver lining to this dark cloud!!!!!
40 Posted 07/08/2008 at 11:08:14
Not sure where you ascertained that I was speaking on behalf of KEIOC, I was merely commenting on the excellent observations contained within Lyndon?s article. As a chartered town planner I think you know that Tesco?s Mr Katowsky or whomever they appoint will have quite enough on their hands when the experts already appointed by Liverpool, Sefton, West Lancs, St Helens, Grosvenor and ING have finished with their application. It certainly won?t be the cursory examination and party line nod of approval that the tame Council in Knowsley gave it.
41 Posted 07/08/2008 at 11:34:13
42 Posted 07/08/2008 at 11:23:56
43 Posted 07/08/2008 at 11:53:40
Lets hope this shoddy effort, from start to finish, at a future proposal is now put to bed.
Were better than that, and always will be.
Here’s to a good season.
Davo..........
44 Posted 07/08/2008 at 12:09:15
45 Posted 07/08/2008 at 12:11:49
Ron, get back in your cupboard.
46 Posted 07/08/2008 at 12:38:08
47 Posted 07/08/2008 at 12:31:55
The media slant on this seems to be following the " the fans lobbying against the move " angle and poor old EFC may have to start from square one with a whole load of more cost. Our board of directors are wholly to blame for this debacle, they have been reckless and incompetent in persuing this scheme from the day BK agreed to an exclusivity deal ( if indeed it ever exsisted ) being led along the path for a good shafting by Tesco and KMBC arrogantly believing it would sail through planning. I dont believe the board were not aware of the scale of the project and its implications, which have now reached a public inquiry. More years and money wasted, while costs just rise and rise. My anger towards the board is huge.
It is they alone who are resposible for this and EFC not moving forward, NOT THE FANS !
48 Posted 07/08/2008 at 13:06:09
49 Posted 07/08/2008 at 12:58:55
One of the main things this episode has done for me is further erode the trust in the present board. If the blame falls mainly on the now departed Keith Wyness, I hope that reflects the main source of malaise at board level, and that a new CEO is brought in better steer the ship.
COYB!
50 Posted 07/08/2008 at 13:04:00
Paul, the reason that the Loop Stadium won’t happen is the same reasion that building at all of the other mooted sites won’t happen. We are broke. That’s the reality.
I voted yes, for that reason, and I’m torn between relief and despair at the moment. In the end, I actually think that Lyndon’s analysis might be right, that we have sacrificed short term gain [on the pitch] for long term gain [remaining in the city]. I think that there will be some very hard times ahead. Meagre rescources secure mediocre players, but then, having supported this club for nearly thirty years, mediacrity is something that I’m used to, and I’m sure I’m not alone.
We can only hope that those in charge of the club in the future have the understanding and vision to deliver both on and off the pitch, whoever they may be.
51 Posted 07/08/2008 at 13:29:41
52 Posted 07/08/2008 at 13:26:26
53 Posted 07/08/2008 at 13:42:04
54 Posted 07/08/2008 at 13:39:00
Now let’s just hope that this ridiculous vitriol is going to stop soon, though I wont hold my breath.
55 Posted 07/08/2008 at 13:55:14
56 Posted 07/08/2008 at 14:18:43
If Bill offered his shares for £0 do you think someone would take them off his hands?
What if he asked for £100 a share?
What if he asked for £5000 a share?
At some point there will be a value that someone is prepared to pay. That is how much the club is worth.
Any new owner will either pay less money for the shares and have to sort out the ground OR pay more money for the shares and get the Kirkby package sorted out for them.
Either way as owners they pay the same, it shouldn’t make us any less or any more attractive to people taking over.
If BIll can’t find a buyer it simply indicates he is asking for too much money for his shares.
It is like me putting my house on the market for £50000000 and then saying I’ve been seeking a buyer for 5 years. It might be technically true put it was never going to sell at that price.
57 Posted 07/08/2008 at 14:13:53
Thank you for reminding all the no voters and KEIOC crowd about why the objections were made and the basis for the call in. Believe it or not the Government are not actually interested in Everton FC and were they may or may not play, and whether it is in or outside the Liverpool boundary. They called it in because it challenged planning guide lines in respect of retail, and that is why all the local authorities objected.
Everton may or may not survive this decision in a state to challenge in the premier league, but if the development as a whole falls what chance of much needed development in Knowsley, which like other areas of Merseyside desperately needs it.
Final point in respect of the "vote". If another option/s are ever on the table again for a new ground, where ever they may be, I really hope that the club do what all others clubs in the division have done, and that is to make the decision without taking a vote of the fans. Our vote did not help and it has divided the fans.
58 Posted 07/08/2008 at 13:39:04
I’d rather become a redshite than join them in anything - including ther fake call for unity.
I just wonder what will become of this great club of ours?
Very few m/billionaires buy clubs to build stadia, unless you’re the idiots across the road, and they can’t even find enough money to build an even smaller stadia in America.
I can’t think of a more luddite way to stop Everton’s progress, apart from going to the loop and being landlocked for a thousand years in a stadia smaller than Goodison, but hey, its within the city boundary!!!!
Jesus.
59 Posted 07/08/2008 at 12:49:39
60 Posted 07/08/2008 at 14:38:46
Well done author :)
61 Posted 07/08/2008 at 15:02:17
Don?t be so sure about project Jennifer or Tesco building a supermarket on that particular site. A Bob said, Times they are a-changin?.
62 Posted 07/08/2008 at 15:38:40
My question now is the role of Liverpool City Council. They have been given an opportunity to demonstrate, with the breathing space provided by the call-in and free from the shackles of exclusivity periods etc, that they are serious about supporting Everton to stay in the City. Kirkby is not the answer but the status quo is also insufficient in the long term. Now is the time for Plan B.
63 Posted 07/08/2008 at 15:28:02
A real masterpiece approaching the levels of the Gettsyburg address.
I wholeheartedly agree with every word and would not wish to add or take anything away.
This has been a real watership in our development as a club and I now only wish for a more "commercial" board to take us forward on a united front.
64 Posted 07/08/2008 at 14:28:08
The point of this being that Tesco have previous on this and all parties concerned must have expected a call-in. Given the relationship between Tesco, Kenwright and the Labour Government don’t be suprised to see history repeat itself in Kirkby and the Government over-rule its own inspectorate. The only concern for Everton is the increase in costs caused by the delay but I wouldn’t be suprised if an agreement exists for Tesco to underwrite this in the event of a call-in. They are dead in the water without the stadium and it’s ’community use’.
65 Posted 07/08/2008 at 13:42:43
The question now , is where do we go from here ?
66 Posted 07/08/2008 at 15:27:46
There is an internal wobble in the logic when Lyndon Lloyd suggests that not only success on the pitch but also "a truly magnificent stadium" - presumably sited anywhere within reason - might generate new Everton support. He concludes that the latest proposal for the Kirkby stadium "doesn’t appear to offer much, if anything, more than could be attained by redeveloping Goodison Park".
Perhaps so. I guess that the owners decided a long time ago that GP couldn’t be satisfactorily redeveloped, but (and I may have missed this), does anyone else have a realistic plan for how this might be done? There can’t be an Evertonian who wouldn’t prefer this option. So what is it?
PS - Andy Myers is quite right. Everton fans will never be given the opportunity to vote about anything again.
And I guess that Chad Schofield is referring to the "ridiculous vitriol" of the Keep Everton In Liverpool - sorry, mustn’t mention that word - err - Our City campaign. Surely all that stopped yesterday.
67 Posted 07/08/2008 at 15:41:23
No true blue would say that. It appears you’re already a redshite.
68 Posted 07/08/2008 at 16:48:12
69 Posted 07/08/2008 at 17:10:56
Why do we think it?s all doom and gloom staying at Goodison. We were at Goodison last season and finished fifith. A slightly bigger squad and we could have finished fourth again. Come on, get behind the manager and the team. Kirkby is dead and buried and let?s hope whoever buries it, forgets where they put it!!!!!
It's time for the fans to put this behind us and unite!!!!
70 Posted 07/08/2008 at 16:44:12
71 Posted 07/08/2008 at 17:42:07
72 Posted 07/08/2008 at 18:06:53
Just shows you what you can do if you stick together, trust each other and try and do things in the right manor.
73 Posted 07/08/2008 at 18:21:35
great article, and I agree with much of what you write, however.......how are we as a football club going to afford to either redevelop Goodison or move elsewhere.
I have posted before re a club in a similar circumstance as us, namely Tottenham......it is projected that the cost to redevelop there is 300 million pounds, and that is with them vacating White Hart Lane for 2 years and playing elsewhere!
We can’t afford that, we can hardly afford DK.....so how do we progress as a club and grow?
If DK is called in then what happens?....we get a fairy godfather.....or mother with billions or do we stay at our spiritual home and become less fashionable than we are now?
If you’d have seen most news stations last night we hardly registered a few seconds of airplay.....now just imagine if that had been say Liverpool?....it really would have ben big news.
I love our club as we all do, but we need to progress and quickly. DK was a sacrifice, to me one worth taking in the hope that our great club could progress, rebrand, move forwards.
I fear that by not moving......or redeveloping properly(again.....we have little cash!), we will lie stagnant and become less and less competative.
Where else will we be given an opportunity to build a 50000 stadium costing less than 78 million?
74 Posted 07/08/2008 at 18:49:14
have a look at this-http://www.toffeeweb.com/club/goodison/hughes_redev.asp
these were drawn up by Tom Hughes and i think they’re genious, he made the effort to try and prove goodison could be satisfactoraly redeveloped which is more than the board has ever done.
p.s. great article Lyndon
75 Posted 07/08/2008 at 18:20:13
For anyone who thought that Kirkby was a stepping stone to the Champions League can I draw your attention to an interview that Radio Merseysides Gary Flintoff did with BK after the AGM (2006 I think). GF asked if the stadium would enable EFC to break into the top 4, Bill’s response was ’my heart says yes, my head says no, that will take a major investor’.
For what it is worth I don’t think it will go to a public inquiry. Tesco will withdraw their application and re-submit an alternative scheme (without EFC but with some sporting/leisure development). Tesco’s will have a Plan B, their shareholders will not be prepared to wait perhaps 2/3 years for a return on their money.
76 Posted 07/08/2008 at 18:59:44
The reality the day after is that, in an increasingly competitive football world, we are a less attractive club for investors to invest in, for top players to play at, and for top managers to manage. All the fine words in the world don’t change this. I for one am not at all relieved or calmed.
77 Posted 07/08/2008 at 18:40:02
This has put us back years. So when do we think we will be in a new stadium able to compete with other top prem sides... 10 years... 15, maybe?
We have, in my opinion only two ways to go. 1. redevelope GP and its surroundings calling it ’the gateway to the city’ which it is.
2. Groundshare
78 Posted 07/08/2008 at 19:18:17
79 Posted 07/08/2008 at 19:30:42
80 Posted 07/08/2008 at 19:50:03
I fear we cannot afford the necessary 200 million needed, unless we get a great help from somewhere......LCC perhaps?......joke!
I fear our margins are extremely close to the bone, in an ideal world we stay nearby or at the old lady....but we just can’t afford it!.......hense DK!
I would have no problems sharing, if we could afford......and not to be the poor relations in the deal.......it would have to be an equal share.
81 Posted 07/08/2008 at 19:59:09
LCC of course have comprehensively screwed us over Kirkby, so we can expect nothing from them.
In any case, why would LFC have any interest in rescuing us from our current plight? There will of course have been huge rejoicing at Anfield yesterday at the prospect of their rivals remaining utterly impecunious firmly in their shadow in an ageing GP.
I do not see any good options for the club right now to be honest, now that Kirkby has gone. I only think some form of groundshare now is the best.
82 Posted 07/08/2008 at 19:51:36
I’ve just given the PDF file a once over. And I do recall it. And I am struck by exactly the same feeling now. It would be glorious, but where do we play our home games for the next four or five years while its happening? Wigan?
Everyone of us wants to take GP into the future. Can it really be done?
83 Posted 07/08/2008 at 20:02:38
This has cost the club, it has hindered our progress- warren Bradley a ’so called Evertonian’ has helped to do it, and yet, unbelievably some of you seem all to eager to jump into bed with the traitorous twat. HOORAH your logic defies belief
Go on then call me a kopite too, i have after all had the temerity to disagree with you.
84 Posted 07/08/2008 at 20:05:24
my sense of pride says we must be an equal partner....if offered, i don’t want us to go begging to the rs!
I would be gutted to leave Goodison for DK, with all our history etc but I feel it is the only way we will progress.
Re the other options.....can we really afford them.....nope!....
even the much vaunted Kings Dock was at least 35 mill for 49 % of the project, great looking stadium agreed......but a potential money spinner......debateable!........and the 35 million was 7 years ago......a lot of dosh!
Anyway, let us hope that for a change we find that fairy godmother with the billions that we all pray for......otherwise......
85 Posted 07/08/2008 at 20:20:14
Don’t believe the hype!
we haven’t got the money!!!!!!
....well, for one stand perhaps!
86 Posted 07/08/2008 at 20:31:03
the beauty of the plan is that we could continue to play at goodison during the redevelopment, with the capacity rarely dropping below 40,000 as much of it could be built during the close season, with those bits open while the stand is finished. we wouldnt have to move.
Colin-unfortunately your right, the board dosn’t have the money to build it all at once, but even by building one stand, the increased revenue could be used to help finance the rest of it. The park end stand would have to be done first, so by building a hotel in the land behind it, which would also increase revenue. If the whole process was slow and controlled over many years we probably would be able to do it. this is the way the board and BK should be thinking, not just the quick fix option.
Also i would like to point out there was a lot of talk about BK selling up as soon as the DK plans were passed, so why couldnt he get planning permission for a redeveloped goodison (the council couldnt refuse after all this), maybe start building it and then sell up.
87 Posted 07/08/2008 at 20:47:19
I have been a bit of a train spotter and looked at the Tottenham fan sites. To redevelop their ground will cost 300 million!
Now perhaps there is London weighting in this with larger wage costs etc, but not much!
So, yes the only feasable way to redevelop would be as you say, and I do believe the Park end was bulit with a view to further redevelopment....but that is not the prolem!
It is the rest of the ground that will be very expensive to redevelop and improve.
DK really is a great deal for Everton.
88 Posted 07/08/2008 at 20:47:33
however i think they need to be seen as a really serious alternative by the board. Maybe we should use Tom Hughes and his plans at the EGM, as a sign that goodison can be redeveloped, and that is where the board should be focusing there energy, not at this bloody public enquiry and the shambles that is DK
Im probably gonna get slated for believing goodison is not beyond hope
89 Posted 07/08/2008 at 20:32:12
To a lesser extent, were Spurs and Portsmouth more attractive to Joseph Lewis and Alexandre Gaydamak? Or is it really the case that BK is not looking hard enough?
90 Posted 07/08/2008 at 21:00:58
There is still a complete refusal by most posting here to accept reality. We were going for Kirkby because that was a very good deal given the limited amount we can actually afford. Other options are either unaffordable (the Loop etc.) or financially unattractive (redeveloping GP).
It really is not helping the club to continue to tell each other nice fairy stories about options which we don’t have or which won’t help.
91 Posted 07/08/2008 at 21:07:02
92 Posted 07/08/2008 at 20:59:32
You're partly right, DK is a great deal, but it?s not a great deal for Everton. In the short term it might have been fine, but imagine in 10-15 years time, if at Kirkby, we still don't win anything or have any success. With higher ticket prices and the transport issues, people will stop going. If attendances fall, the club will not be able to pay players, or get will get so much into debt that we start on a downwards spiral with finances and relegation and end up in League 1 or 2, with a 50,000 capacity stadium. If we were in the city of Liverpool people would still come, because it wouldn't be a problem getting there.
Also with regards to Spurs, if redeveloping their stadium is so expensive, why wouldn't they just go for a new build on another site, it would be cheaper. DK was only doing to cost £130m, why would they redevelop???
93 Posted 07/08/2008 at 21:11:49
I am aware that we have been looking for investors...so far to no avail!
It’s great to dream, but I think as a club reality has to take hold, we must move forwards somehow. My ideal would be a fantastic redevelopment at the old lady, but......there is only one value for money option that we can afford!.
94 Posted 07/08/2008 at 21:27:02
95 Posted 07/08/2008 at 21:23:07
Why would DK be short term, Lyndon is not always right!
When the city develops it may envelop Kirkby in the future and if the shopping complex works it will attract more people to the ground, which incidentally will have a club shop attached.....how many people go close to our ground and stop now!......not many!
As far as transport is concerned, the majority of us have transport, soccer buses will work overtime and I?m sure there will be prking found nearby...like at Man Citys stadium, just off the main drag. The transport is not insurmountable and is a tadge of a red herring. It is not that far from Goodison Park.
To answer your last point, it will cost £500 million for the new build!,hense the probable redevelopment!
One final point, if redevelopment was the way forward.... why are the rs moving?....
96 Posted 07/08/2008 at 21:44:01
That was the best article I?ve read about DK, Lyndon. What?s more there have been many really excellent posts from concerned Evertonians.
Personally, I hope to the heavens that the Kirkby option is dead. I wish no disrespect to the people of Kirkby and, if that is what they want, I hope their Town Centre is redeveloped and brings jobs and prosperity to the town. But not with our club. I think it would be a disaster if we leave this city.
Whatever our views are, I believe we have those views because we want the best for our club.
Brian, your post was really cogent and I wish you many more years of watching the Blues at Goodison (or anywhere else in Liverpool) brilliant.
Ajamu, you have denigrated fellow Evertonians who have consistently laid down their arguments in a clear and logical way, against the the proposed move. You call them "Spawn of the Devil" and "Redshite." No emotion can excuse that. Consider what you?ve said.
97 Posted 07/08/2008 at 21:45:31
I believe that DK is short term, if you don't thats fine, you're entitled to your opinion as i am to mine
However, I can't see Liverpool developing, it did that a hundred years ago and look what happened. You make a fair point about the club shop, but maybe the club should have one in Liverpool 1, not just by the stadium.
With regard to transport, we saw what happened when just over 100 cars took to the streets of Kirkby, imagine 5,000 cars. All the parking is at least 20 minutes walk to the stadium. That?s fine for most but what about the old and the young? You're right the transport is not insurmountable, it is just a big problem right now.
OK point taken about Spurs, but to your last point, I don't believe redevelopment is the ideal way forward, but it is our ideal way. Your point about LFC is completely geographical. Clubs redevelop so they don't have to move too far away from whey they were, but in Liverpool's case they are only moving across the road, so it?s not an issue. If we had the money and could build on Stanley Park (or the loop for that matter) I would happily go for it.
98 Posted 07/08/2008 at 22:10:15
It?s all about opinion, we all want what?s best for the club.
I am just hoping that our billionaire is found....and we don?t look at the loop....just awful......in the middle of a roundabout......horrible!
As a postscript, it looks like the rs can?t afford their new thing.....maybe we?ll have a chance to share after all!
It's been good to talk!
99 Posted 07/08/2008 at 22:15:30
All the common sense reasons why DK is wrong for Everton FC neatly captured.
I just hope that the Club can be ?big? enough to swallow their pride and talk to the likes of Bestway, LCC, Sainsburys etc whilst commissioning a proper professional evaluation of the options of redeveloping Goodison. Oh, and be prepared to be a bit more open with the fans. The Cloak & Dagger stuff and lies have to stop.
Regardless of what happens this has been an appalling piece of PR that has polarised the fan base and made the people in charge look stupid.
100 Posted 07/08/2008 at 22:17:13
Redeveloping GP still looks to be the best plan B but I think we should be far more ambitious than Tom Hughes blueprint which for me is far too small to be much more than a lot of seats piled up on top of each other. Building the Kirkby stadium on GP?s site is much more like it in terms of size - but the Kirkby stadium is three times the size of GP.
LCC have said they will be cooperative so let us go to them and ask for the school (already hinted at by Bradley) and the 30 or so houses adjoining giving us the whole of the area between Goodison Road and Stanley Park. £10 million should do it. THAT is enough room on which to build a new ground to be proud of.
Unfortunately the pitch would have to move sideways so the first stand to be rebuilt would be the Bullens. 2 smaller stands at Portman Road were rebuilt using prefabb?ed stands in one close season for £22 million in 2000. The New Bullens Road would have to accomodate twice as many seats with steel twice as expensive - final price at least 50 million?? So only £60 million to get to the first stage. Assuming we get the land quickly we could have the first stage done before Kirkby is now likely to start. Couldn?t we? If LCC are serious call their bluff NOW.
101 Posted 07/08/2008 at 23:09:57
Amen to that
it has been good to talk, we’re all hoping for our billionare.
your right about the rs’ carbuncle. They cant afford to build it.
102 Posted 07/08/2008 at 23:13:06
fantastic idea.......but that is one stand for the price of DK!
And we’d have to move out for probably 2 seasons, this is why DK is such a great deal and where the redevelopment option falls down!
it’s all down to money, we have to be careful not to lose the golden goose.
...and would LCC play ball?
103 Posted 07/08/2008 at 22:37:44
Moving to Destination Kirkby would make us a mediocre side like Wigan in their retail complex, the only thing that would be missing is the pathetic music played after a homeside goal.
I really do hope that Everton FC can invite Liverpool City Council and Bestway for a lunch time meeting at Goodison park and come up with a plan for the future, only if Goodison Park is not an option to us. But with our board most are likeley to take there money and run.
104 Posted 07/08/2008 at 23:25:10
We both have different views, but it was good to chat without the petty squabbling!
goodnight
105 Posted 07/08/2008 at 23:28:19
Before I go to bed....tadge unfair re the board, agreed the PR has been extremely poor but the new boss appears to be adressing this, I believe he is extremely capable.
I feel there is now much onus on LCC to help with a solution as they have ben the main impetus re the DK being called in!
I don?t believe BK has taken a penny out of the club!
Oh yes, the new stadia is far far better than Wigan....no comparison!
Good night.
106 Posted 07/08/2008 at 23:26:13
107 Posted 07/08/2008 at 23:39:20
No need to be rude!
I agree there are far more educated people on this site than I; however, I and most of the Yes voters voted with our eyes open and a reality of the situation we are in!
We can all fantasise about a magnificent stadium that the whole world are jealous of, but it just won?t happen..... just like the fact I won?t grow another 6 inches and the tooth fairy isn?t real. There has to be a realism here and sometimes it is all fantasy.
Lies... has always been a harsh word, yes the facts have been stretched.... but lies?
You can list them.....?world class?... well define that?...... a potential 57,000 stadia is getting there!
?Deal of the century?....... well if £35 million or near..... it?s certainly close!.... a bargain in today's money!
So, instead of dissecting every word, cough or fart from Everton just look at the project, it really is ok!......and great value.
You must remember that it wasn?t the stadium called in but the size of the project, and why?.....well because a neighbouring council felt threatened by the potential success of the scheme and complained to a government straining to appease its traditional voters.......a political decision....surely not!!!!
So the project is good, it?s just the location. This is the Kirkby that allthe newspapers say is in Liverpool, and you never know in a few years time it may be!
I?m not naive, please don?t assume I am because you disagree with my opinion, as I stated before. We all want what is best for our great club!
108 Posted 07/08/2008 at 23:47:21
109 Posted 08/08/2008 at 00:01:56
Excellent article!
The remaining stalwarts of the pro-kirkby camp have not been able to respond to the pertinent issues covered.
Colin,
The Spurs comparison is a bit off the mark for several reasons as we have discussed before. Firstly, you are quoting the figures for one potential solution, although it should be noted that even with these figures redevelopment has been shown to be just over half the price of relocation to achieve the same capacity. Secondly, Spurs are hoping to create something of a similar standard to the Emirates hence the inflated prices...... not the meagre £2k per seat of DK. Thirdly, You haven’t stated if the £300m includes the whole development which for one scheme proposed included residential and commercial developments alongside the stadium. I believe there is other potential solutions including the redevelopment of the East stand only to bring the capacity upto mid 40’s or more, and/or the extension of the West stand. Therefore, your analogy falls apart on several levels.
The fact is, EFC were expected to fund approximately 3 out of 4 of the much more basic stands at DK. 1 or 2 much higher quality additions at GP can be afforded for the same amount, combined with a much higher rate of return enabler at the Park end (since it will be built on our land).
The Transport issues will not go away. You cannot simply brush off the logistical constant that peripheral Kirkby has only a fraction of Walton’s Public transport capacity and a fraction of the number of traffic lanes serving it..... nevermind the Loop which eclipses both put together several times over. The transport issues have been a major stumbling block with the club’s transport consultants unable to demonstrate viabilty to date and are mentioned in the letter calling the project in. As far as using Man City for comparison you conveniently omit to mention that COM stadium is right on top of the city centre, clearly visable from Piccadilly Station, and is not competing with a drive-thru retail park surrounding it. Also as far as having to move out while redeveloping...... How many clubs have had to do that in England? Only Celtic had to do it when they had a stadium with 3 large terraced sides and only 8,000 seats and even then they didn’t have to stay away till it was finished. We do not have their problems as has not the vast majority of clubs in this country who have redeveloped their existing homes.
110 Posted 08/08/2008 at 02:23:48
I am still wondering though how we pay for redeveloping Goodison... everyone who promotes this idea fails to mention any sort of rough plan of how we find that sort of cash. Any idea’s?
I’m a yes voter who’d much prefer to stay at a redeveloped Goodison. I just dont know how we could possibly even come close to paying for it.
111 Posted 08/08/2008 at 03:12:03
If we have been able to secure loans to the tune of £78m+ for "pie in the sky" DK which breaks every rule in the planning book as demonstrated by the call in.... what can be secured on GP which exists, is real and not a figment of Terry Leahy’s imagination? Outlay for redevelopment can be done incrimentally as and when capacity/facilities are required. This can never be the case for relocation. History is a major asset, our entire "goodwill", we have none in Kirkby!
112 Posted 08/08/2008 at 04:43:37
so you are saying in your opinion a bank will finance a new goodison on a construction loan on a stand by stand basis?
Question, if this is the case, then most construction loans are short term 3-5 years which need to be refinanced once a going concern is established? Tom, what do you estimate on a stand by stand basis the cost of redeveloping Goodison... presumably if they were to do this they stand would have to appraise so they could take out a 30 year loan once the construction loan was forfilled?
Editorial Team
113 Posted 08/08/2008 at 05:04:54
I understand what you’re saying Neil, but a) who says we have to have a brand new stadium when redevelopment is an unexplored option? and b) just because it’s the cheapest or most affordable option doesn’t make it right or even acceptable, in my opinion.
With this deal, Everton have accepted the absolute bare minimum — they’ve settled for a Championship-level stadium, waived the rights to any significant non-football revenue, and allowed Tesco to shunt all matchday parking to the other side of the M57. As I said in another thread, if you pay peanuts you get a St Mary’s-alike on a Tesco car park and I don’t agree that the fact that it’ll only cost £78m to move there is a good enough reason for accepting such a spartan deal.
To reiterate what I said in the main article, I only see two benefits of Kirkby — increased capacity and new facilities. I’d also add the fact that, yes, it would make the club more attractive to investors but it’ll have come at a massive price and we’d have effectively put the cart before the horse — i.e. sold our soul to secure a takeover when one of the biggest reasons for wanting owners with bigger pockets was to afford a top-class stadium.
On the topic of investment and takeovers, Andy Myers said above that there hadn’t been a sniff of interest in five years but that isn’t true. The Fortress Sports Fund did actually exist... Kenwright just had no intention of selling a majority stake to them. Similarly, there have apparently been at least two rounds of talks with another Geneva-based entity, the GML Company in charge of Khodorkhovsky’s assets, and I’m told there was a serious approach from a Lebanese tycoon but he was rebuffed because Kenwright wanted to keep ownership of the club in Liverpool. (Don’t get me started on the irony of him taking the club out of the city!) Oh, and don’t forget Thaksin Shinawatra and Lakshmi MIttal who both publicly declared interest, albeit vaguely before investing their millons elsewhere.
Finally, to address another common point, as an ordinary fan I don’t have the answers regarding the feasibility of redeveloping Goodison. Only the club can produce a fully costed alternative plan to Kirkby, be it on the current footprint, the Loop, Walton Hall Park or anywhere else; that they didn’t produce one at the time of the vote suggests that they didn’t want any other options on the table.
What I do believe, though — and I’m not saying it won’t cost more in the long run than Kirkby just that it could be more achievable — is that by far the most affordable option open to the club (assuming it is logistically possible) has to be to redevelop Goodison piecemeal along the lines proposed by Tom Hughes — where capacity doesn’t drop below a certain level and there is no disruption to the team’s ability to play home games during redevelopment. The result would be increased capacity, provide brand new facilities, and, once any borrowing had been paid back, provide reliable revenue streams... basically what’s on offer in Kirkby but on our terms in our back yard.
114 Posted 08/08/2008 at 05:27:01
I suppose we will get full details of all those other viable alternative sites located within "your" city.
Or maybe not.
[I am from Bootle; Evertonian for over 40 years]
115 Posted 08/08/2008 at 07:13:37
I note also that ’the fantasists of the Loop’ have now returned in some force. When are you guys ever going to understand that the problem is that - without the enabling support of Tesco / Knowsley - WE CANNOT AFFORD THESE OPTIONS. We can look at them until we are blue in the face - we still won’t be able to afford them. And those who think that Bestway are the equivalent of Terry Leahy’s Tesco must be living on the moon.
We are now down to hoping that,as the value of the club will have significantly fallen after the DK call-in (funny that), we are now attractive to somebody who wants to pump some money into us. Of course, by far the most likely thing they will do (unless they are a true multi-billionaire) is to continue to try to secure Kirkby. It remains the best option that we have to generate increased revenue at a reltively low cost of investment. But it is almost certainly now unaffordable by BK and the current regime. And probably too uncertain for anyone else to want to buy into either. Not very happy times ahead.
116 Posted 08/08/2008 at 07:29:42
The answers and the blame lies solely at the feet of Kenwright.
117 Posted 08/08/2008 at 07:46:58
The question is not: who shall we blame? Where in hell does that get us? Let’s throw out Bill after Keith, DM will no doubt follow, and then we can all sit mouldering in GP together with no money agreeing that it was all Bill’s fault. Whoopee doo!
The real question is: what are the best options of the ones ACTUALLY available to us, here now in August 2008? We want options that will generate more revenues and attract a new owner. Kirkby was going to do that; now we are in the shit. That is the point. Not worrying about who to blame. We don’t have the time or luxury to indulge ourselves in such childishness.
118 Posted 08/08/2008 at 08:56:48
That was to no one’s benefit but Tesco and is apparently still in place (according to the Daily Post anyway).
119 Posted 08/08/2008 at 09:14:35
120 Posted 08/08/2008 at 11:38:16
Kirkby will attract a new owner- conjecture. No evidence to back it up.
Kirkby would generate more revenues-true up to a point £10million if the ground was operating at 95% capacity. The clubs non footballing revenues would have been severly curtailed at Kirkby- only 6 non-sporting events allowed, attendences fixed at 7,500. 100 free uses of conference facilities given to KMBC.
Sounds like they gave away the shop.
Another thing Neil the club is not in shit. It now has an opportunity to look at new options.
121 Posted 08/08/2008 at 12:15:14
One thing I’m still baffled about though is who actually voted yes to Kirkby.
I know a lot of Evertonians and yet don’t know a single one who voted for this turkey and I still find this extremely baffling.
122 Posted 08/08/2008 at 12:33:34
You need to read the full thread above to see many who voted yes. I know the Liverpool Echo (Lib Dem propaganda rag) and the BBC interviews with fans last night outside goodison only seemed to throw up people who are delighted with the call in but remember that the majority of people who voted (and we can argue until the cows come home about how the vote was run) came down on the yes side. I am absolutely certain no voters would not be questioning the vote if the result had been no!!!
123 Posted 08/08/2008 at 12:33:02
"note also that ?the fantasists of the Loop? have now returned in some force. When are you guys ever going to understand that the problem is that - without the enabling support of Tesco / Knowsley - WE CANNOT AFFORD THESE OPTIONS. We can look at them until we are blue in the face - we still won?t be able to afford them. And those who think that Bestway are the equivalent of Terry Leahy?s Tesco must be living on the moon."
Fantasists? Are you sure? Is that like believing the transport in Kirkby will suffice? Or that this is a top class stadium? Or that the whole of Lancashire is full of latent blues waiting for the Kirkby utopia? Everything we predicted as come to pass. This scheme, hardsold to us as a no-brainer isn’t even a starter, yet we are the fantasists?! However, this nonsense about comparing Tesco and their boss to Bestway means what exactly? What has this illconceived partnership and its enabling really yielded..... the cost of one new stand!? Deal of the century? How could this pitiful return ever have precluded redevelopment or the Loop? Bestway have been involved in developments at least as big as DK, they are also a private company who can invest as much as they wish unlike Tesco PLC, their owner is also worth more than EFC many times over with Terry Leahy’s wealth in his petty cash. Tesco’s wealth and Leahy’s Evertonian credentials have been repeated ad nauseum yet have produced nothing but an enabler for his company to build their biggest store in a place that will never warrant such. Enablers near city centres have much greater scope and value has demonstrated by the Kings Dock where 90% of the stadium was financed on a tiny land package. No-one wants skyscrapers or penthouses in Kirkby. The Loop has large council owned packages around it and sits between several large redevelopments including the £multi-billion city-centre schemes. It also wipes the floor with DK in terms of transport, profile and desirability. Bestway predicted last year that EFC’s contribution would be approx £60m for a HOK designed 55,000 seater given the levels of development they could realise..... to not have explored this option fully regardless of exclusivity beggers belief, and points to the whole nature of DK and how we have arrived at this point.
124 Posted 08/08/2008 at 13:35:20
Writing off DK at this stage is, in my very humble opinion, premature.
125 Posted 08/08/2008 at 13:49:12
I fear that on your "everything we predicted has come to pass" you might be on the wrong side of that one too. My prediction has been that we will find it very difficult to secure the new investment and owner that we need without a new stadium deal as attractive as Kirkby. Again, I hope I am wrong. But I am certainly right so far.
126 Posted 08/08/2008 at 14:36:00
1) we need a willing commercial funding partner (we cannot do anything alone) on a scheme from which we would both benefit (no one will do this with us for purely altruisic reasons)
2) it must be within the range of what we can afford to pay (we are skint and in debt and no billionaire take-over in prospect any time soon)
3) we need local authority help to accommodate us with land and planning permission and positively disposed to us as much as to our near neighbours.
To do anything about a new stadium all these conditions must apply.
Is this right? and can this be achieved within the LCC boundary?
Or are we doomed to decline and degredation at beloved but nackered GP? (no inquests please)
127 Posted 08/08/2008 at 15:41:59
128 Posted 08/08/2008 at 17:33:38
Bestway are the 17th biggest privately owned company in the UK. Bigger than Littlewoods who used to own both us and LFC. How many Football clubs have been taken over by PLC’s, hence my reference to the constant referral to Tescos as being meaningless. Bestway via their property group were major developers on the likes of Cheshire oaks and Bluewater. The former of similar scale to the retail offering at Kirkby, with the latter significantly larger than DK in every respect. In otherwords they are more than capable of and familiar with developments of this scale. Out of town single-storey retail sheds are nowhere near as land-efficient and therefore effective investment generators as downtown developments. Whether or not we will now "see" is totally dependent on the club and how many bridges it has burned and its receptiveness to looking at the options, as ever it was! No doubt the shifting economic climate will also now affect issues in the same way that the club are already stating regarding expected cost increases. This should have all been averted over a year ago, however the club knew that if the Loop or redevelopment had been allowed to grow legs (just a few weeks work as opposed to Tesco’s 18 months-2 yrs), then Kirkby wouldn’t have won the vote and that was their only (misplaced) objective. As it was they only secured the smallest majority to date of any vote, and that was based on a whole series of deceptions, all now discounted. So, to be honest, I’m not sure what you think you’re still right about. Lyndon posted his summary of the main issues and no-one has been able to dispute his analysis as shown throughout the responses. If Kirkby fails on just one thing...... say: Transport, the outcome could be catastrophic for our club (even the greatest stadium in the wrong location WILL fail). Throw all the other reservations in, and "could" turns to "would" IMO.
129 Posted 08/08/2008 at 18:59:53
Whether I am personally "right" or not is not the main event here, and I would rather focus on the issues. I really would be absolutely delighted if I was proven "wrong" and we found a new stadium we can afford in the city.
The most critical issue in my view is how we attract a new owner and substantial new investment. We can (maybe) survive as a Premier League club without it - but we certainly cannot survive in the medium term as a top ten club, let alone dream about the top four. That is surely clear to us all.
What concerns me is that we need a new stadium at a reasonable level of investment to attract this new owner. I believe that failing to secure Kirkby has severely set back our chances of attracting this new owner and new investment. I do not see any other affordable options that will make us sufficiently attractive. And there is plenty of circumstantial evidence (apart from being common sense) that Kirkby would have increased our attractiveness, and may have even quite quickly brought about the change in ownership.
Of course I hope I am wrong about all this and the new investor is already poised in the wings!
130 Posted 08/08/2008 at 19:55:21
I wondered when you were going to enter the fray!
Anyway re Tottenham, I think it is a valid argument, it will cost at least triple the cost of DK to revelop Goodison. Where are we going to get the money and loss of revenue when redevelopment is taking place?!
The loop is extremely crap, if you want our ground in the middle of a roundabout, with the traffic problems that this in itself will cause, you must be crackers.....and Bestway as a partner.....be realistic!.....
To me the only viable alternative, if we could get the necessary! grants and help from LCC.....
.would be the shared stadium option, but where will mwe get the money?
It’s all very well dreaming, but we are skint!...we are almost at the begging bowl stage, we are mortgaged to the hilt, assets have been stripped to fund the signings and players we all want for us to compete......what are we to do?
Spend more money on an antiquated stadium, redevelop her, bearing in mind any changes mean.......a new stadium.....
So we redevelop and inn time this costs, say, an optomistic 200 mill or we move to a purpose built stadium for 50 mill or thereabouts.
But....the new stadium is slightly out of town on a brand new shopping complex, which potentially will have thousands of shoppers arriving each week.....oh....and there will be a club shop there too.
So, thousands of people who ordinarily would not come to Goodison will see our new ground, and potentially go into the club shop....and look around, and become interested in EFC.
How many people visit Goodison now, probably us diehards and a few curious tourists who don’t stop their cars and drive past
I am all for being sentimental, but please get real. I have had some of the greatest nights of my life at the old lady, but hey we have to move on!
Lyndon, to describe DK as a championship stadium hints at desperation for your argument and does no favours, poor judgement.
We need to build a new stadium and still have sufficient funds for new players, DK does this.....the other options do not!
131 Posted 08/08/2008 at 23:00:04
A stable core of dedicated player, with a strong team spirit, we?re even scoring plenty of goals, progresson in domestic cup and in Europe, teams fear coming to Everton, new top-training facilities, new assistant manager. We need to stop the gloom, and get behind the team, show our support. The club is not going backwards, its more of a question how are we going to progress even further, with DM taking us there.
The answer clearly is investment, to enable EFC to buy players to get us into the CL. I think the stadium is not the core of the problem, it is in my opinion management?s inability to attract investment, and secondly BK?s desire not to relinquish control over the club he loves.
132 Posted 09/08/2008 at 01:33:04
As I said, you’re not comparing like for like. Spurs were talking about a £500m stadium relocation development or a £300m redevelopment (there are I believe other smaller schemes being considered too which will cost nothing like this sum), we are talking about £100m construction cost at Kirkby. You haven’t said if those Spur’s figures were inclusive of anciliary work residential/commercial etc and infrastructure, but suffice to say that £500m represents over £8k per seat as opposed to £2k per seat at Kirkby. This disparity is glaring. HOK are the world authorities in stadium design therefore I would take their opinion over the clubs. The Loop is already completely accessible along its Scotland Road edge by foot with just Juvenal street side required bridging for further access. Kirkby boasts just a few percent of Liverpool city centre’s public transport capacity. That’s why most major modern stadia worldwide are now being built downtown or close to it. Out of town was tried in the US 40 years ago and failed (in the home of Auto-culture)!!! We live in a city with the lowest car ownership. Just 38% of families have access to a vehicle. Just one new stand at GP could yield greater capacity than Kirkby and much higher quality facilities than the Barr effort. Have you ever been to Warrington’s rugby stadium? If not, I suggest you try it ASAP, then compare to the Emirates, or GP. Incidentally, even Highbury had more boxes than DK.
133 Posted 09/08/2008 at 03:51:19
Look at the QPR board, look at Portsmouth's spending this summer. Uefa Cup again, still no investors. Fuck off Bill ? Pull the other one!
134 Posted 09/08/2008 at 19:37:54
Your argument, educated as always still does not state how on a money for money basis there is anything to touch DK! And that I think is the flaw to any argument against, the project is cheap because we are being given so much, whether by expertise, materials or land, and money is crucial.
I have mentioned Tottenhams example just to show this, I know the schemes are not similar but the principle is the same.
Any other scheme would be well in excess of 100 mill possibly 200!
Even the academics are now saying it is a great deal!
Dave, the club have actively been looking for investors, but surely we don’t want to be in the situation Man City are in or more recently Birmingham City. It has to be right!
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1 Posted 07/08/2008 at 08:01:08