Michael, I agree with a lot of your sentiments. Not all, but usually most. I have met Bill numerous times and he is always very ebullient talking about Everton. No-one could be in any doubt about his love of the club.

We should all be grateful that he took the plunge and mortgaged (whether or not by Jay’s claimed manner which if true, was a precursor of how the Glazers and Stadtler and Waldorf took over Man U and RS, albeit for a lot less debt).

My big beef with Bill now is that he has managed to divide the Blue fanbase (not just on ToffeeWeb, but on a "global" basis) with this move.

Previously when moves had been discussed, emotions run high because of the sentiment that many people hold Goodison Park in — understandable.

However, the uproar with the Cronton proposals under Johnson quickly saw that dismissed. The club then got an overwhelming mandate for King’s Waterfront, which would have been the most awe-inspiring stadium in Britain — even by the time England’s next World Cup comes around.

Permit me if I may to post a quote, verbatim, from BlueKipper letters (and I’ll email Lavo to tell him to update his referencing, had to manually guess the URL for this!)

QUOTE
Jim Hancock, once of North West Tonight and now a political columnist for the Daily Post, is suggesting that the Destination Kirkby decision will be brought forward by the government to coincide with the Labour Party Conference in September. In order to prove how committed they are to ’regeneration’, the Kirkby project has been given the go-ahead, according to Hancock’s ’well-placed sources’. It ought to be noted that Hancock has spent decades covering the north-western political scene and is very familiar with notable Labour politicians. (Anybody can read about this on page 9 of Monday’s Daily Post. No Link)

One would think the club will be pleased about this. However, the same sources indicate that the Planning Inspector has made a condition of approval a reduction in the proposed capacity — Hancock says "somewhat less than the 50,000 proposed". No doubt this reflects the inadequate transport provisions of the plan. So, the EFC administration will be happy with a ’yes’, but what exactly is the point of us swapping ground for the same capacity? Regards _____ (29/07/09)
END QUOTE
I removed the guys name as I hadn’t got his permission, but anyone can look on Kipper and find it.

Again, people will doubt the validity of this, but as someone who worked in the planning sector a while back, for a companies that worked on a lot of stadium and retail developments, I’d be worried.

I see what you are saying Michael. But if what you, and many others claim about BK (refuses to sell, used the club finances to make the buy out, is only in it for the money etc.) is true and can be backed up by a shred of evidence, I will fully support any fan action to he never comes near our football club again.

But I really don’t see it. I see someone who has made a lot of mistakes in his tenure by trying to be forthcoming and transparent, and has now learnt to keep his mouth shut a bit more regarding club business. You don’t see any other chairman talking openly about club business. I am sure that the majority of other clubs have had deals fall to shit at the eleventh hour. It's all part of business, shit does happen to even the most successful companies.

What strikes me most though, is that if Bill really is as black as he is made out, then surely Moyes, Phil Carter, Jon Woods and the rest would see it much more clearly, and not want to be involved in it. Phil Carter has been with EFC since 1976, so it is fair to say he is a devout Evertonian. I don't think he would stand by and watch EFC go to the dogs. BK himself has been at EFC since 1984. He is not exactly skint, and has a comfortable and consistent revenue stream from his theatre and film company, which is the largest in the UK.

Things just dont seem to stack up against him, apart from the fact that he is a bit eccentric — as you would expect a Theatre Producer to be. Regarding the fact of why no investor will currently touch us with a barge pole:

I am convinced that serious investment in EFC is hinging on DK becoming a reality. It's not rocket science to realise that DK will generate more revenue than GP. £5 million a year on its own might seem very little. But this extra revenue can service a lot more debt. Which, when invested into the team, could bridge the gap between 5th and 4th. CL football has to be the only aim for our club right now. Forget title challenging, we are miles away.

But if I am honest, we needed to be moving into DK this season. It is imperative that we are still knocking on the door of 4th place for DK to be successful. Regardless of people’s intentions, ulterior motives, location outside the boundary etc the basic fact remains simple. We will make a great deal more money if we break into the CL at DK, rather than GP.

I’m in agreement with most of what you say, Dan, with the exception of Kirkby. BK must be a far better business man tan he pretends to be for the faithful Everton shareholders... and you're right: if he was the bumbling idiot he comes over as, then those closest to him would have packed him off ages ago.

But if our revenues are currently £70M to £80M, then the £5M or £6M additional from DK is merely the noise, the variance in the predicted numbers.

And it doesn’t seem to account for the added interest payments needed to finance EFC’s bite of the DK cherry, which would surely gobble up all additional DK income. It just doesn’t seem to make sense from a revenue perspective, although I’m sure Neal Pearse will put me straight on that!

Dan, do you really believe things "just turned to shit"? BK has lied to the fans from day one, things didn't just turn to shit when the Kings Dock fell through, or when the Rooney sale went through, or when we all spent last summer "watching this space". The man's is a Walter Mitty. The promises he was making were just plain false and ultimately proved to be so.

As for the extra revenue from DK, if what Matt tells us is true — and it doesn't half make sense — where will the extra revenue come from?

Question: If DK gets the nod but is restricted to a 40,000 capacity, which set of fans have the biggest reason to feel betrayed, the Yes or the No vote?

"a deliverable 50,000 rising to 60,000" ... my arse!

I am guessing the £5 million quoted as extra revenue already takes into account any payments that must be made regarding stadium capital.

If it does not, then £78 million would take around 30 years to pay off at £5 million per year at a standard interest rate of around 5% (very rough figures BTW, feel free to calculate it more accurately). If this were the case, then I fail to see how the club would even entertain it as a project that would increase revenue streams — let alone convince anybody to go for it.

Anyway, I know I am pissing in the wind trying to change anybody’s mind regarding relocation. But Kenwright’s portrayal as some money-mad antichrist who has done nothing but harm our club is nonsense to me.

The King’s Dock would without doubt have been a wonderful stadium to play in. But let me play devil’s advocate. How would our first team look now had that happened? The Rooney money which many believe paved the financial road to our current team today, wouldn't have been available. Before the Rooney sale, our transfer’s were largely older players towards the end of their careers. Post-Rooney came the emergence of vast squad improvement due to available funding, and shrewd spending. The Rooney money came in on a drip, and consequently the squad also took time to improve. Now the Rooney deal has been fully honoured, we don't seem to have a pot to piss in again. Our on-the-pitch performance in cups and league positioning seems to be the only thing keeping us on an even keel right now.

The Sky money people keep mooting as ’available’ income is most likely already allocated for other expenditure. A club like Everton could easily get a loan in June on the basis that the Sky money is paid in August. It is guaranteed income. If you look at the club’s books, it does show that we put every penny we make back into the club to keep it going. And debt is increasing proportionately with the bigger contracts being offered to our key players. The club is trying to squeeze out extra revenue through merchandising, but this is futile unless you have an international brand.

DK is not the answer to the problems, merely a tool that enables increased revenue if the on-pitch performance is right. A part of the jigsaw. But you try convincing anybody to support a 50,000 seat stadium when your team is mid-table and nowhere near the CL. This could be the case if we abandon Kirkby and start looking from scratch. And even then, we will look at all the same places, with the same conclusion (yes, we cant afford it).

I simply can't see us getting the right investment, if there is no enabling feature that can create a decent return on the investment (ie, a modern stadium with modern facilities). As I have stated several times before, if DK gets the nod you can be sure there will be some serious investment into EFC. Until that decision is made, don't expect anything.

Dan, How can we be sure there will be investment if DK gets the nod?

Would that investment be from people wanting to buy the club, or from someone who just wants to plough a pile of money into a club based in Kirkby?

Dave you are fully right. If it is restricted to 40,000 then it's a complete waste of time. If it turns out to be true, then not a single fan will support it, including me. Nor do I believe the club would persue it should it be capped at 40,000. But I’m afraid I don't take some bloke posting on Blue Kipper as being something I base my perception of what is right for my club on. I do try and use facts. And the facts are as follows:

Wayne Rooney submitted a transfer request. This changed the situation a hell of a lot. BK got the best deal possible based on what he had to work with. The horrible little twat then printed a load of shite in his book about Moyes, which Moyes then won a libel suit for. The same little shit, then kisses the United badge when he scores against our club. Does it really seem he was sold against his will? Of course he wasn’t. He wanted to go, and we got the best deal based on the fact he could have sat out his contract and left for NOTHING.

’Watch this space’. Everton signed Marouane Fellaini for a club record of €15 million after not being able to sign Joao Moutinho, Moyes's prefered target. Fellaini then went on to score 9 goals in 29 games, which is not bad for a first season, and considering he played most games with a back injury. He was also voted Everton’s Young Player of the Season.

Dave, I did try to explain. The stadium and capacity is the most signifcant revenue stream associated with a football club. If you want to generate more money, you need a decent stadium (without 40% obstructed views like GP) with decent facilities. It's a no-brainer, that you will make more on your investment at DK as opposed to GP. Especially if you have ambitions of putting the club into the CL.

I don't know about you Dave, but I was at the Villarreal CL qualifier at Goodison. And apart from the away end, the place was packed. And that was just for a qualifier! You only have to look at the Cup Final to get a view of just how many blues will turn up for big games.

I am convinced that moving to Kirby would be a disaster for the club. Is the redevelopment of Goodison Park a serious alternative? This is a genuine question. Also, are there any other viable options?

Michael, flattered by all the references. I do feel that I am rather pigeon-holed here as Bill lover in love with Kirkby. Neither is true.

I would MUCH prefer a ground share, and I think it is a dreadful dereliction of duty, on Kenwright’s part and others, not to have aggressively pushed for it.

I think Kirkby is, as much as anything, an indication of how poorly the club has been mismanaged over the past 20 years or so, that this is all we can now afford. Indeed it is not The Emirates, it is very sad that it has come to this. But we are where we are, and so wishing we were somewhere better and could afford more is rather pointless.

On all the Bill-bashing, I think where I would fault Bill is that he is a sentimentalist who has not pushed Everton into the 21st century in commercial terms. The idea that going to Kirkby is simply some grand conspiracy to make him rich neither fits his personality nor any facts about the situation. If he makes a lot of money out of Kirkby, then that will be because we have a rich new owner.

If we go to Kirkby and don’t get a new richer owner, with more funds to pump into the club, the whole thing will be a complete waste of time. Kenwright HAS to go if we get Kirkby. (Please feel free to quote me on this in future.)

The main event here is that we have to get a new ground at some point, and Kirkby is the cheapest we are realistically going to get. Hopefully it will attract the new ownership we so desperately need. No owner looks likely to turn up if the first thing they have to do is find a new ground for us (if they can), and then pay upwards of £200M for it.

Dave — your point is spot on, and of course we don’t know whether we will get new investment with Kirkby. But the point is — as Dan and others have said — for lots of reasons, it looks a lot more likely with Kirkby than without.

In essence we are not in a happy situation. We missed the boat on King’s Dock, and that is a huge loss. We have failed to get a joint world class stadium. If we stay at GP we are not attractive to the new owners we so badly need. Kirkby is all we can afford. As in the Irish joke — you certainly wouldn’t start from here...

(And Dave, in answer to your question on another thread — I don’t have a season ticket for GP because I live in London. I am unlikely to get one for Kirkby, although I can imagine that there may be all sorts of multi-year ’deals’ on its opening, so who knows? Wherever Everton play — at GP, Kirkby, a shared stadium, the King’s Dock or anywhere else — makes no real difference to my attendance.)

A scenario I am quite fond of (so not in love am I with Kirkby), is that Kirkby is knocked back, and the resulting crisis sees an aggressive push for a ground share, with Hicks and Gillet definitively saying they can no longer afford to build a ground on their own. Heads are knocked together (perhaps by a new Government), and at last...

Then Everton would for sure be highly attractive to new ownership, Kenwright would go, and a decent amount of new money would go into the team...

And then unfortunately I wake up. Just too unlikely. Not least because our loveable neighbours are just too proud to do it.

My problem with Kenwright is simply that the impression the man gives is that not only can he not do the job — but that he openly admits to all that he cannot do the job. The continual merry-go-round of emotion (which is somewhat to be expected as a football fan) is compounded by the man making promises that he blatantly cannot keep.

The Kirkby debacle is testament to his ability, and he must be saddened deeply that his legacy to the club could end up being that he moved the club away from its heritage.

To my mind, self-awareness is key here, and he if cannot achieve his goals, he should find someone who can.

If DK gets the government nod, is there a date set by which time building the new stadium must commence? I don’t believe that the money is in place to finance this project — it may have been once but not now. If the proposed DK capacity is cut by a fifth then that will give BK the opportunity to retreat with ’dignity’ over the whole sorry affair, claiming that the figures now no longer add up, it’s not the DK dream it was supposed to be, never wanted to go there in the first place etc. Cue much egg on Tesco faces as Elstone, Dark Site and council mutterings recommence over shared stadium — a must if Merseyside is to host World Cup games etc.

I would like to know, where are all these new fans are going to come from? There is going to be a loss of at least a couple of thousand fans, who will not go to Kirkby under any circumstance. What about the people, who will get fed up of the lack of decent transport, and they decide only to go to the big games? The whole thing is a farce, which leads me to believe, there will be a lot of brown envelopes being passed around.

Dan... 40% obstructed views! What?

Is that a misprint or are you counting sitting behind someone with a Fellaini wig?

Phil, the source is from the KEIOC website:

The club's Chief Executive has identified several problems with Goodison Park as it stands:

- 10% of the Stadium seating has an obstructed view of the goal area

- Approximately 12,000 of the 40,000 seats (30%) have an obstructed view of the playing area.

40,000 - 50,000 - - it doesn’t matter. DK is all about corporate clients and it is their money we need.

GP cannot provide it and that is where the money will come from. Cutting from 50k to 40k will not hurt the club anywhere near as much as having to reduce the corporate hospitality suites.

Much as I hate it, the Premier League is no longer a sport but a business and we are in the leisure and entertainment business and the football is just a way to make this happen.

Phil, our award winning corporate facilities we have now are barely half0full for most games, sometimes empty, so just where are these extra blues with money going to come from — especially given the location?

If we start winning regular trophy’s then it will happen, but at the moment that is pie in the sky, Kirkby exec boxes will be empty and that is a fact.

We are going to lose some supporters if we move, it will also discourage far more fair weather supporters and I would just like to know how we intend to replace them. I have yet to hear someone tell me they will start supporting Everton if we move, compared to the good few saying they won't go.

Dan
Now I’m really confused, so the money we got for Ronney funded the redevelopement of the team? DM’s net spend is next to nothing, if the sales of people like Rooney, AJ and Faddy have funded any new arrivals, how come Fellaini is nowhere near paid for and what were all the loans spent on?

Neil I don't see why you would feel flattered. You, more than anyone have staunchly put forward the case for the defence every time BK is criticised and when DK was called in did you not submit several angry posts claiming the No vote was responsible for holding the club back? It just seems strange you have battled for so long and so hard defending a project you yourself have no intention of supporting.

Phil Roberts, if it's merely corporate clients we are seeking, would it not be better to just convert the Lower Bullens to corporate ?
it would reduce our capacity by 4,500 — easily made up elsewhere — but it would rid us of the worst seats in the ground, save us over £100 million and provide corporate facilities people may be interested in — something Kirkby will never do.

Quite right, Dave, it would also reduce how many obstructed views we have which allegedly seem to be used as an excuse for some to watch such major games like the FA Cup replay against the Shite in the pub. Add another tier to the Park End to make up these lost seats and how much would this all cost?The rest of the ground could be done over a period of time and this is what the clueless board should of started years ago.

We do not need a bigger ground yet, our gates prove that; we have a steady hardcore support, even when we where last Champions we only averaged 27,000, so just where these extra 13,000 are coming from to take us to 47,000 — and that is not including the people who will pack it in or turn to picking their games and not get a season ticket.

I'm glad that at least a couple of you appear to have grasped exactly how our revenue will increase with a move to a shiny new modern stadium.

Executive boxes.

The reason why Spurs always gross a lot more money than we do is that they have 120 executive boxes which cost ten grand each to hire. AND THEY’RE ALWAYS BLOODY FULL. So these rich Cockneys generate an additional £1.2 million per home game, effectively doubling their gate receipts. Mutiply that by 24 (including cup games) and there you go.

I’ve sat in executive boxes at Bolton a few times (it's a long story) and the whole area was like a bloody ghost town. And from what I've heard the situation is similar at GP (unless Sylvester Stallone is in town), and that is why unless we move to a more attractive stadium we will always be in the same bracket as Bolton or Wigan when it comes to matchday revenue.

Neil, a groundshare would be far more disastrous than a move to Kirkby. So far the Kirkby move would cost Everton £80 million (which we’re struggling to find). Liverpool’s new ground is in the region of £400million. So where do Everton find the extra money for the groundshare? It’s complete pie in the sky.

I’m also sure the RS would want a 60,000 seater stadium which would be full of their tourist fans for their games. Realistically do you honestly think we’d fill a 60,000 seater? Think about it, the RS get a full house and we get a half empty stadium. We half their expense of building a new stadium but double our own expense. It’s not very logical is it?

Also if we groundshared, how would it attract investment? It would look like we’d be playing at our more successful neighbour’s stadium. I’m sure any investment would just be drawn to them as well as any ’new fans’ because they play in the CL and the press love them. Unlike Inter and AC who are on a par with each other in both size and finances and success, we would be made to look very much like Liverpool's poorer, less fashionable and less successful neighbours. I’d sooner go to Kirkby than groundshare.

Dave W - My ’flattered’ comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but there you go. Most often I feel more as if I am being battered!

On Kirkby... sigh. Whatever I say to make the point that Kirkby in my view might be the best option we practically seem to have, but not the best possible option if we were much richer... Well, I suppose I will keep trying to get this across.

I was in north London the other day, and if you walk down the Holloway Road you keep getting glimpses down streets of a fabulous looking Emirates, just north of Kings Cross, and right near Arsenal’s old home. I would LOVE such a thing for us, who wouldn’t? The problem is that we cannot afford it, not that we don’t all (including I am sure one Mr Kenwright) want it.

On the groundshare, Alan, I have news for you: we are "Liverpool's poorer, less fashionable and less successful neightbours". If we stay in GP and they build their palace on Stanley Park — we will look very much like like this. If we go to Kirkby — we will look like this.

So obviously we will not groundshare with them on equal terms. I think the disparity in our positions will actually look a lot less if we are sharing a ground. Especially if we get a new owner as part of the process.

I think that, with the will, an acceptable deal could be possible for a groundshare (we might put in a third, say), and that in addition governmental and all sorts of other investment would be forthcoming for such an iconic stadium in the North West. And I think a new owner would love to have his new team playing at such a place.

Michael,
Have I missed the bit where someone gives a convincing answer to your question as to whether or not Kenwright increased the club’s debt in order to get a majority shareholding?

I don’t want to come across as too critical Neil, I’m just interested in the practicalities. You’ve not really answered my questions:

Where do we get £200 million from? The RS would halve their expense but we’d more than double ours. It’s totally impractical.

How would you feel about supporting Everton in a ground with 20,000 empty seats compared to the RS getting a full house?

Mark my words, a groundshare would be very much billed as ’Liverpool’s new stadium’ and we just happen to play there. I hate them lot and I hate to admit they’ve got more pull on ’fans’ than we have but it’s crazy to think a groundshare would in any way help Everton become more successful than them. I’d stick to being pro-Kirkby, Neil, it makes more sense.

Dave, fair play. I was unaware that Fellaini is nowhere near paid for. Can you provide some evidence about this? I have scoured the internet, but can find nothing to suggest this. All I can find is the Echo site saying that €15 million was the initial payment, rising to €16 million on appearances.

Rooney’s departure certainly paved the way for new signings. I am not sure if you knew, but AJ was signed after the Rooney departure. So you answered your own question mate.

Dan.

’£5 million a year on its own might seem very little. But this extra revenue can service a lot more debt.’

As per the CEO:

’47,000 every other week inclusive of the corporates selling out.’

In this case, based on the almost (and I’m being kind here!) non-existent research the club have undertaken and the huge potential transport difficulties highlighted both prior and during the Inquiry, a "Build it and they will come" mantra seems to me at least to be at best incredibly optimistic and at worst bordering on commercial suicide.

Alan, on the groundshare issue, Everton Football Club would almost certainly not put up £200m. Neither would Liverpool Football Club. The groundshare deal would be a three-way party between us, the RS and the council, who can advertise an iconic football ground for Merseyside and the North West, to be used by the Football Association for the FIFA World Cup in 2018. It could also be used for major events like concerts, conferences. I have no idea how much we would put up but my guess would be between 25-30% of the project costs, which going on your £400m estimated cost, is roughly the same amount we’d have to stake for Kirkby.

Matt, Dave et al.

You’ve got it wrong on the capacity, my reading of what the reduction in capacity at Kirkby really means is that the new ground would still hold 50,000 seats but unless and until the transport is sorted to Knowsley Council's satisfaction the capacity will be capped at 40,000, that's a completely different thing to what the keiocs are peddling which is a ’smaller’ ground — which is patently wrong.

Interestingly in the very same blog from James Hancock he mentions that the Labour Government at the same time as announcing DK approval will defend Merseytram against the Conservatives who want to abandon it — make of that what you will... but it's looking good.

What's the difference in having 50k seats and only allowed to fill 40k.... and having a 40k stadium? Other than the former looks like an empty stadium and costs more to run.

Also, the point being made... is that the capacity needs to be full every matchday in order to make the paltry £6mill a year... so again... if we can’t do this then what would be the point?

If this is a stipulation on the Kirkby plan then it is an excellent out for Mr Kenwright... let's hope he (or his paymasters) have the sense to take it.

If the will was there I still think we could do something at the Waterfront or Walton Hall Park, I personally loathe the concept of groundshare though. However I believe the planning inspector has despatched a positive report to the government.

’Maddison’

What exactly is ’looking good?’

The ’deal of the century, the effectively free.......world class stadium.....with the best transport in the UK’ or a ’pup’ bought out of desperation and sold, as you yourself underline, as something it was never going to be?

As for the 10,000 empty seats: how’s that going to work?

Will they close one whole end? Maybe 2,500 behind each goal and 2,500 on the longsides? Make the ’gaps’ in the corner even bigger? Jesus wept!!

Given that Everton FC is something we all profess to love I’m loathe to bring the term ’vindication’ into this debate but fuck me, I’m glad I voted ’NO’ to this debacle.

Jimmy, Bolton and Wigan have new stadiums and It has been stated many times we have one of the poorest fanbases in the country. So, unless we start doing well in the Champions League and winning league titles, we have no chance of filling as many corporate boxes as Spurs and Co.

And as I have said before, our corporate facilities have actually won awards and yet the are still empty most home games, so why will Kirkby fill these boxes we cannot fill now?

I’m glad I voted ’YES’ Neil and I would do so again. I’m also glad the indications are looking good for both a positive decision of a DK go-ahead and a Tramline to serve our new ground.

By the way I am not accepting that the new ground will be capped at 40,000, I believe the incentive is there for Everton with the help of Tesco and the government to get the transport sorted out in time. So the reduction in capacity is a red-herring really.

It looks like you’re a ’pezzy’ (pessimistic) and I’m an ’opty’ (optimistic). Let's leave it at that.

Since Day 1 I’ve been pretty much all for the idea of groundshare... but fuck my old boots, Alan Clarke — you have gone and turned that around in the space of three or four paragraphs.

Shit the bed.... you thought of running the club?

I’m off to read the rest of your posts.

Benjamin, The Conservatives will win the next election and, when they do, money will be spent on a new tram / train link joining South Parkway to the Airport. This will enable the Norwiegen and Irish Kopites even better access to the match and leave us city-based Blues, apart from those from Fazakerley, still with no idea how we are going to get to our new ground. Some of us will get there whatever... but some will give up and we will start to lose our fanbase.

Graeme, the general election won't be until May or June 2010, I believe Merseytravel already have the steel and planning permission until next year. I’ve a feeling all will be signed and sealed in the next few weeks. Too late for the Tories to scrap our Tram and therefore force us to have 10,000 empty seats in our new ground. That ’Tram-Train’ link is an entirely different project altogether and is a few years off to say the least. Merseytravels priority is the Merseytram which we should all be grateful for.

Benjamin, You may be correct. How cynical of the Labour party to block something and then later give it the go ahead for at the cost of a further £100 Million just to win some votes at the next election.

Graeme

Thank God someone’s come out and said it - it’s a mind boggling problem.

Forget exploration of our universe, a cure for cancer, an end to global poverty and starvation.

HOW ARE WE GOING TO GET FROM LIVERPOOL TO KIRKBY!!!!!!!!!

HOW?!?!?!?!

Gerrard ’Maddison.’

You are still having ’those’ feelings I see.

Sometimes reliability is refreshing.

Do us a favour......while the Government are ’sorting out’ Everton Football Club’s transport problems, can you also ask them to pump a few mill’ into the managers written off transfer kitty. Cheers.

New Labour may or may not (I’m going for not) attempt to use ’Line One to Kirkby’ as a very blunt instrument to attack the now unbeatable lil’ ol’ Tories but, as has been proved, even when their bubble was well and truly intact, they came to the conclusion that it was a ludicrous idea then and, even if they had the will, means, time or inclination, they will never build it now.

Or do you have ’a feeling’ it will be PM Brown’s parting shot: "They may take me but they’ll never take Line One to Kirkby....."

You’ve been missed, ’Ged.’ :)

No wonder so many pro-Kenwright & pro-Kirkby supporters are one & the same, they’re all living in the same fantasy world as Kenwright. The idea that a new stadium in Kirkby is going to be some kind of panacea for all the club’s ills is just too ludicrous.

The more likely scenario, should this proposal proceed, is that the club is burdened with huge debts for a white-elephant stadium that’s regularly half-empty & our struggles to remain in the Premier League back in the 90s will seem like a joy-ride.

Dan, Of course I know AJ came after Rooney, but we sold him for a £2m profit too. The club themselves say they had to borrow the money for the Yak and Fellaini didn't come in until we recieved the Sky money, so when did we spend the money we got for Rooney?

DM has come very close to ballancing the books in the transfer market — I think I read he averages about £4m a season £ although I stand to be corrected.

I’m not disputing Rooney had to go, especially once he made it known that was what he wanted. My original point was about BK saying he wasn't for sale one minute, then letting him go at a discounted price the next.

Peter, thanks for suggesting some practicalities on the groundshare stadium funding issues. I didn’t realise Liverpool City Council had that much spare dosh lying around. I had heard through a friend of a friend that LCC were the reason the Kirkby decision was being held up. They hold some power up at government level and are apparently really pushing the groundshare issue even though both clubs have said they’re not in favour of it.

I’m glad you’ve come round to my way of thinking Greeny, tell your friends too. I also wouldn’t want to have to disinfect my seat before every home game too. Getting the smell of red shite off your seat would require a fair bit of elbow grease.

Of course DK will get the go-ahead and this will enable Blue Bill to attract the funding he has been working all-out for AND remain as Chairman.

How come ? Because he’s the very best in the business — that’s why!

Richard, As you know, Rupert Benjamin Gerrard Maddison-Tarlington-Madden is a composite entity with some weird agenda of his/her own but you, we are led to believe, are a real person. That saddens me... deeply.

Yes Dave, when BK made that statement he was not for sale, at any price. But then he handed in a transfer request. This changes the situation dramatically. Would you have prefered Kenwright to reject the transfer request, play him in the reserves and then lose him for nothing when he is out of contract? Come on Dave, for all Kenwright’s failures you really cant blame him for this one.

And Dave, where do you get your insider information from? I have asked for the source that states Fellaini isn’t paid for, and you ignored it. And where is it stated that the Yak was funded by a bank loan? I am quite happen to explain any of the points I made, but you keep coming back with more questions.

According to most sources on the net, Moyes has spent around 25 million net in 6 years. Averaging around 4.2 million per season. This figure also takes into account the sale of Rooney. I dont think its a coincidence his net spend is identical to the amount we got from Rooney. So I repeat what I originally said: The sale of Rooney has bankrolled our current squad and got us where we are today. Now if you want to disagree then that is fine, but please back it up with some facts. If I am wrong, then I will be quite happy to accept it.

Sorry Dan
I didnt reply as I hadnt revisited this thred until now


I didnt respond to the question regarding the Fellaini and Yak deals because I’m doing it from memory and need to do a bit of research, but I promise I will come back to you on this - My boss is making sure I dont get the time
I seem to remember Robert Earl underwriting a massive lone.

Your missing the point I’m making about Kenwright and the Rooney deal.
I dont blame Kenwright for it happening, but I definiely blame him for the incredibly generous Terms he allowed the richest club in the world to get him for

Come on Doddy, come clean. What is your relationship with Kenwright? Your support for him becomes more an more ridiculous to the point where you have to be considered a wind up.

No worries Dave, I am based in China, so I have plenty of time to discuss this in the evening, as it is morning time for you. I found this extract of the deal from the Telegraph:

After the two £10 million instalments that United are set to pay Everton, they will also pay £3 million when Rooney has completed three years of his current contract at United. The next £4 million will then be paid according to United’s success in the Premiership and the Champions League as well as the England caps earned by Rooney.

Should United win the European Cup with Rooney in the team, Everton will earn £1 million, while a runners-up place will cost United £500,000. United will have to pay £500,000 if they win the Premiership or £250,000 if they finish as runners-up. A victory in the FA Cup for United would earn Everton £150,000.

Rooney is understood to be earning £55,000 a week on his new deal at United and Everton will be paid £1.5 million if the deal is extended. They will get £500,000 when he reaches 20 England caps and the same amount again when he reaches 40 caps.

Given the transfer market in 2004, I cant see how it was a bad deal at all to be fair. I didnt even know about the England cap’s part of the deal. Does anybody know how long these payments have to be made? Up to now, the deal has been worth 27 million. Thats not bad considering he had put a transfer request in.

Here’s what i understand about Bill Kenwright and True Blue Holdings purchasing Everton FC.

He did borrow to finance the deal. However, he didn’t borrow much against Everton’s assets - he couldn’t. Largely because the only asset Everton had at the time was a stadium - which was mortgaged some time after. (had he borrowed against that, he wouldn’t have been able to mortgage it).

I know that he remortgaged his family home and borrowed against some of his theatre work to finance the club (via directors loans) and I know that he borrowed from other investors and business associates. I can qualify my knowledge of this and True Blue holdings’ transaction/business plan and would be willing to do so. Mike - if you want this, please email me.

The problem with what BK done to purchase the club was that it left very little in the way of disposable income because it had already swallowed up his available resource - something which he openly admits.

Hi Dan, a Guardian report on 10/7 last year gives details of two more mortgages from boutique Edinburgh Bank Adam Company, these were on top of the money borrowed from Barclays the year before. The club have 12 different outstanding loans, the largest being a £30 million loan taken out with Prudential — which will eventually cost £68 million.

I know you believe the Rooney money paid for the transfers but the club had been borrowing against future TV money for some time before the deal, the installments paid by Man U must surely have already been spent before we recieved them. I don't believe the tranfers of AJ the Yak and Fellaini would have been possible without the loans.

BTW what brings you to China?