"Do some fans really want to believe that all our players are fantastic ..."

Yes, they do.

It’s a little like the fundamentalists in any religion: every jot and tittle must be perfectly correct or the whole edifice of their belief lies in tatters.

Honest enquiry and comradely criticism have no place in that mindset.

In some cases there seems to be an element of instability (Dodd, cough) - though I’m more inclined to believe that rather than dementia, it’s a case of mickey taking.

Michael

I love the site and the opportunity to thrash out opinion and debate with fellow Evertonians.

At the end of the day the Evertonian glass is unlikely to ever be completely full or completely empty but fluctuating somewhere in between. The question is - should we be concentrating on the empty part of the glass or the full?

How many letters have you had from people saying they dont want to get involved in the site because it reflects too much positivity?

You can have my penny’s worth seeing as you’re asking ...

First of all, I love this website. Simple as that. I can’t begin to tell you how much time I spend on this site. I post now and then for sure but I read it a lot! Probably too much!

The guys running the site do a great job and in this day and age to give up your free time like that (even though it is in effect for your beloved EFC) you should be applauded...even Michael ;-)

The range of opinion (good, bad, positive, negative, informative, opinionated, crazy, neutral, whatever) is well-worth reading and for the most part I read every post.

The postings where a game is being followed live are brilliant...a strong plus for the website as a whole.

Now, specifically on the "negative" aspect that Michael refers to: personally I don’t have a problem with anybody having a negative comment per se ... what I do have a problem with is negative comments aimed at "people" — in other words people that post on here.

I’m sure it won’t surprise (or bother) Michael to know that I actually put him in this category ... some of his comments aimed at fellow posters (either the actual posting itself or the person posting) make me wince to put it mildly. Of course it isn’t just Michael... several do it.

For me ... it is THIS kind of negativity that puts me off. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and even if they put their opinion across poorly it is still their opinion ... we really don’t need to be attacking each other on this site. With the odd exception here and there we’re all here for one reason and one reason only... EVERTON.

And, yes, there are times when we all get pissed off with what goes on at EFC (i.e. transfers...or the lack of them) but discussing our opinions (or providing information about) such goings on is fine... I may think Distin is a fantastic signing... YOU may disagree. That’s fine. I think Hibbert should go out on loan... YOU may disagree. That’s fine.

Let’s just discuss the opinions (and news etc) rather than attacking the person providing the opinion/news.

It isn't that long since I "joined" ToffeeWeb so to speak, because I only got myself on line in January this year. The opinions of toffee fans all over the world are very important to me, and I commend ToffeeWeb for accommodating those opinions. Only recently, you have been good enough to publish a few contributions from me, and I have been very impressed with the football knowledge of many posters on here.

I suppose you need to bear in mind the current situation surrounding the future of the club with the proposed move to Kirkby. This is a project which wasn't on fans minds when ToffeeWeb started out. I have learned a heck of a lot from reading posts about the possible move, and also feel great sympathy for both sets of fans in both camps, regarding yes/no to the move. They are all staunch Evertonians with the welfare of their team close to their hearts, and although its a shame that some of the contributions can sometimes descend into (mild) personal abuse, I can accept that because of their shared love of the same thing; Evertonians have every right to express genuinely held and heartfelt opinions.

This is where you and your team come in, Michael, as far as I am concerned, you are all doing a great job, and I dread to think where I would get my daily dose of sensible opinions and gutsy ripostes if it were not for ToffeeWeb. As mentioned above, the level of negativity is bound to have increased in relation to that experienced by other clubs because of the high level of uncertainty swirling around the club at the moment.

Mark Twain said about opinion; "It is not best that we should all think alike: it is difference of opinion which makes horse races."

Michael - Toffeeweb is by far the best independent football website there is. Simple as.

I think for me the one thing that gets on my tits is that certain posters have an inability to hold their hand up when they’re wrong or, maybe (shock, horror!) admit when the Blues get it right. Particularly in pre-season when we all get a wee bit frustrated there is a build up of completely over the top drivel written about the club and in particular our manager.

Sometimes we as Evertonians don’t realise just how lucky we are - we are truly blessed to be blue.

Keep up the good work Michael and the team...

Michael,

I’m gobsmacked! I am the person you are referring to in your blog and I was in the process of responding to your e-mail that you sent me - without informing me that you were writing this piece.

The initial intent of e-mailing you was to say thank you for the time and effort you put in to the site.

I thought although I cannot be certain that what I actually said was that I didn’t want to get invovled in ONLY negativity and I thought at the time of writing that I would try to bring some balance.

The reality of my perception is that:

1. Bill Kenwright is not the root of all evil though not the White Knight he’d like to be portrayed as.

2. The Admin and Marketing Team although not perfect have improved over the past 2/3 years.

3. Tony Hibbert and Leon Osman although not my favourite players are also not the Sunday Leaguers that some people would have us believe.

4. David Moyes hasn’t got himself and the club to the position they are in by accident.

I have never wanted to only hear good things I want people to own their opinions and if people have ’FACTS’ actual facts, then please state them, help people, like me, to understand the issues better but don’t dress up things you want to be true as facts.

And no, I don’t reject the wealth and breadth of knowledge but again when that knowledge is just someone’s opinion then I want just accept it as fact because it jumps on one of the bandwagons stated above.

Finally, if what I wrote to you offended then I genuinely apologise. This is the only site that I regularly read and to you and the rest of the team I offer a sincere thanks. I thought I made it clear that I do not in any way believe that you select articles to publish but I do think that you are very quick to ’offer balance’ to articles that go against what you think, feel or believe.

NSNO indeed!

If a highly paid professional footballer misses an open goal, every fan has the right to complain. If a good fullback can’t cross too well, we can perhaps expect better. If a manager makes us a top 5 team we can still hope for more.

On this site, everyone from the owner through the board downward to the manager and onward to Tony Hibbert are regularly rubbished - not good enough. Even worse, liars and thieves (not Hibbo).

These, of course, are only opinions. The facts will speak for themselves.

If anyone took the pronouncements of, for example, Tony Marsh, as matters of fact, they might as well burn their shirts. Playing Prestatyn in a few years from now.

The background of the possible move to Kirkby (which brought a positive vote from the season ticket holders) sours much of EFC traffic. Blue Bill isn’t a red devil. You wouldn’t think that if you took this site as your only source of information.

For me, I couldn’t give a toss about opinions I think are crap. I find lots of well-informed comment here.

I’m one of the people who would label certain aspects of the site as negative. I think I have been banned from posting in the past, because of it. But for what its worth, I have said in the past the site as far as its general content is, is fantastic, but the editorial stance, at times, and what it cultivates is the problem.

I guess I’d aim this at Michael. For the last few years now, a smug negative ’clique’ has evolved amongst some contributors. The reason I say ’negative’ clique, is because the majority of their input is derogatory towards personel at the club. It's generally a hypocritical clique, who just rehash each others arguments.

You may say, you're unbiased and just want more information about the club. Yet you openly mock people who just think your over-reacting, and when someone goes OTT the other way, a la Marsh et al, it's like friendly banter, because he’s in ’your’ club, ie calm down Tony, or something equally friendly flippant.

In the past, I was called a ’daft twat’ by Michael for not panicing about transfers like everyone else the first week of July, a couple of years ago.

IMO there is a smugness to the pessimism that permeates on here, and that is what is so unpalatable sometimes to other frequent vistors like me, who would visit more, if it was eradicated.

Ther are other sites that can be just as negative, but that is offset by humorous avenues on that site, which ToffeeWeb is devoid of because of the more professional looking journalistic model.

So coming from other sites that I use that have a more balanced feel and humour, ToffeeWeb sometimes can be heavy going.

Do you know I have never come across the term ’moyes-apologist’ on any other site anywhere. Yet it was invented and exists on here — think about that!

Michael, being a relatively newcomer to the internet, I find your site fascinating. I look forward every day to read such diverse opinion that your site attracts. I particularly find the posts by Tony Marsh very stimulating.

TM reminds be of a younger me! He is always wanting Everton to be the top of the tree, but there is always those people who are happy with what we are watching at Goodison.

I also like the posts of the poetic E J Ruane, his Irish prose remind me of those other great irish scholars Swift and Behan. I also like the input from people Iike Neil Pearse and Dan Brierley, even though they spout a lot of shite over Destination Kirkby.

If you Everton fans want to watch a programme where everybody speaks from the same songsheet, I suggest you watch the Liverpool Channel on Virgin TV. There is a show on their called Kop talking. 3 Liverpool fans are in the studio debating the lovable reds. You have never seen nothing like it. For 45 minutes they discuss the reds. It goes something like this:

Fan 1: "Rafa's great"
Fan 2: "He’s Brilliant"
Fan 3: "He’s marvelous"
Fan 1: "I think we’ll win the league"
Fan 2: "So do I"
Fan 3: "Me too" This goes on for 45 minutes, there is no debate, everybody agrees with each other. Then I think of ToffeeWeb, and all the healthy posts.
Carry on Michael, and please Tony add to this debate.

I have two fellow Toffees that I regularly hang out with, go to matches with and debate all things toffee with. Both, like me, are not Liverpudlians nor have we ever lived in Liverpool. The Internet is for all of us an invaluble source of our information about the club.

My personal favoured website is this one. One of my two friends will not touch ToffeeWeb with a shitty stick (ok, ropey metaphor - how can you touch the virtual???!). The reason being is that it is "full of moaners who just go on and on and debate their own navel". Intriguingly the chap in question is always bemoaning the state of the squad, the club, performances etc. My other friend occasionally visits these pages, but like my aforementioned buddy, he prefers Bluekipper as he does cite a percieved negativity on the site.

See, what I think the crux of their issue with ToffeeWeb is really their own expectations of what a fansite should provide - they want fast, funny and easily digested news. They are quite happy to debate, but they prefer face to face interaction. So in this example I am not sure out and out ’negativity’ is the problem, just a lack of desire to grapple with an issue in depth (online). To fully do a topic justice, a critical perspective is required - so the bad as well as the good is debated.

As an aside, perhaps one of the reasons that this site is percieved as the home of the negative is becasue (neck on chopping block time!), well, it is? If other sites don’t offer the opportunity to voice the breadth of fan opinions out there, then perhaps ToffeeWeb with its mission to provide a broad-ranging forum is one of the few forums for the ’negative’ types out there? Just a thought...

Michael, I look on Toffeeweb pretty much every day and I find the diversity of opinion fascinating and entertaining. Though I agree with little of what he says I like to read Mr Marsh when he posts, at the other end of the spectrum Mr Dodd also has his moments...

I think Martin Cutler has hit the nail on the head though - as editor of this great site you set the tone for critical response. Mild sarcasm, irony or world-weary resignation I think most of us can handle, but quite often you can sneer and disdain. Is it really that big a surprise if those who disagree with you might take the same tone? It’s this that really grates with people, not your curiosity, and it’s a little naive of you to bemoan TW’s reputation when about half of your replies end with ’FFS’.

I think Neil Pearse is a good example here - he holds a fairly minority view as far as TW is concerned, yet he’s always civil and never resorts to mud-slinging.

And by the way, if you’re mentioning maddening words as unwanted descriptions of yourself, bear in mind how many people on here are branded ’apologists’ by you and many others!

Michael,

Having read TW for sometime but often been reluctant to contribute I welcome some debate on just how the varied contributions are perceived by the "majority". None of us can be certain who the majority are and indeed what their opinions really are.

However, my own view is that TW is dominated by those with conspiratory theorys and others who have some "totally reliable source inside EFC". This gives them a platform to influence some readers and allows negativity to prevail.

To somehow wish to believe much of the official PR releases from GP makes many people feel slightly stupid and naive.

To summarise then:-

YES, Toffeeweb is often perceived to be a negative platform. Thankfully, the majority remain positive about all things Everton and whilst we may not be entirely gullible there is a general acceptance of reality about where the club stands in relation to others in the EPL.

Whilst I will continue to visit TW I often abort negative streams as I fail to identify with the overridingly negative thread of some fatuous arguments.

Incidently, I think your light touch moderation is just about right. We should have balanced discussions but mostly TW seems to be leaning towards to negativity. It’s not that I personally don’t want to hear TM etc. It’s more that it’s just irritatating and often plain stupid.

Like most EFC fans, I have a number of Everton-related web sites stored in my favourites. The official site, Bluekipper, When Skies Are Grey, just to mention a few, and of course your beloved ToffeeWeb.

And I have to be honest and say that TW is without a doubt the one I visit the most. I choose what is essentially an un-afficiated forum ahead of the official site for my daily digest of information on all things blue. I do enjoy the humour and wit of the likes of Bluekipper — but it's a light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek sort of thing. The real meat is in the varied and enlightening postings in the ToffeeWeb comments and mailbag pages.

So you can believe when I say I appreciate the honesty, banter and opinions (positive or negative) on this site. It makes for a much better read. I find it hard to tolerate the mindless, ignorant few who just post the typical closed mind viewpoints, with no capability to understand the arguments and opinions of fellow blues. But then that's your job to monitor the comments.

If we had a world with no room for opinions and debate, then we might as well just give up altogether.

Keep up the good work Michael & Co.

I look at TW every day (and i contribute when I can) and the thing that I love about this site, and this site only, is that I can join a thread that runs the range of opinion from Marsh to Dodd and everything in between.

I have never considered TW a negative site but I do consider it a realistic site that doesn’t follow the party line and above all else its a site that wants the best for EFC which sometimes means being a critical friend in the best sense of the term.

I think that the overall tone of the posts on the site are negative. However, I think that goes with territory. It is generally the people who are pissed off that feel the need to tell everyone about it. Those who are content don’t have the same motivation. Whatever you think of the negativity and criticism of the club expressed on the site, it is almost certainly not the view of the average supporter.

Let the miserable bastards and the moaners type away, they might be a majority of ToffeeWeb readers, but they are a minority of Evertonians.

I should first point out I’m not the only Chris Jones who posts on here. I’m the one formerly living nr. Wakefield, now in Burton upon Trent.

I appreciate this site and visit it daily. It’s one of around sites whose icons sit on my IE links bar.

Negativity? Yes, sometimes. Some posters do seem to like to howl at the drop of the hat, always ready to slag the club off (justly or otherwise) when things are amiss, others appear to want to preen and say "I told you so" when we lose (but are silent when things are going well).

It reminds me of being in the crowd at a game. Some keep singing their hearts out when we’re getting battered, others moan when we’re "only" 3-0 up and they demand we score more.

People are entitled to their opinions, but just as sometimes at Goodison I want to tell people to shut the fuck up moaning, much the same urge often comes over me on here. But I keep coming back!

COYBB

Positive or negative is missing the point.

Those who damn their fellow blues for being negative, don’t want to face reality. The divide should be characterised as realist vs demented.

Realists: Acknowledge the problems at the club.

Demented: How dare you criticise; you're being negative.

In truth though the "negatives" are the positive ones. They see the problems at the club, they want change at the club and they want the club to be a force in English and European football.

The "positives" are the negative ones. They make excuses for the current regime, and meekly accept that we can’t compete and should be happy our lot.

TW is not negative/positive — it’s a forum for all opinions. The "Positives" just want you to ignore the clubs failings and pretend that everything is hunky-dory; ignore them — publish and be damned, you're doing a good job.

In the interest of fairness, below is my original message submitted to Michael that pissed him off so much!

On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:22 AM, wrote:
>
>> From: Gareth Prytherch
>>
Hiya Boys, Just wanted to say thanks for all of the time effort you obviously put into running the site. I know that you all have day jobs and that you often come in for stick because of your perceived editorial style.

I don’t always like what you have to say but respect is due. Keep going and once again Thanks

Interesting question Michael with no easy answer.

Firstly I’ve looked around a few fan websites and not just EFCs but clubs like The Dark Side and United. No bull, but I’ve yet to come across one as well put together, managed and easily navigated as TW. Add to that the high standard and sheer quantity of most of the contributions, articles and follow up posts, I honestly think the site has to be one of the best of its type in the whole country.

OK opening grovel over. There IS, I feel, a higher level of negativity on this site than other EFC sites and, most certainly more than I sense amongst the wider fan base. This could, of course, be because the site’s very structure lends itself to the knockers being able to have a more dispropportionate say, so do they find a home here more than say at Bluekipper which tends to be a more upbeat magazine type site.

I visit TW daily as there is so much to admire, but do find myself dispirited sometimes at the poisonous venom that can be found here from certain (very regular) contributors. Like more extreme political activists, they represent views that are so far from the majority, yet have an effect out of all proportion simply because they put the time in and stir their pot of poison.

Of course it’s all about opinions, that’s half the enjoyment of being a fan, we’d all do things differently, but some of the more savage criticism here is breathtaking in it’s lack of perspective. I recently found a new EFC site called SOS1878, not in TWs class yet, but well put together and one contributor actually said (I tried to find the quote again tonight but failed) it was a welcome change from "all that negativity on Toffeeweb"

What the answer is I don’t know. Maybe if you have a good, well run, open and well known site you’re bound to attract the eternal whingers and knockers. Let’s face it they would be moaning about something Moyes did at some point even if we did the double of PL and CL trophies in one season and there’s not much you can do about that...

I suppose the old adage of "all that is required for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing" applies. Maybe the more positive amongst us, (the silent majority I believe) who appreciate the fantastic job Moyes is doing, should speak up more?

I liken the aspects of the internet and sites such as TW to the press. People read different papers for different reasons, if you want a Conservative viewpoint read the Torygraph, if you want a liberal paper read the Guardian, if you want a comic with tits read the Sun or the Star etc etc. Other sites serve different audiences, BlueKipper is harmless fun with, IMO, little depth but enjoyable at times non the less.

TW serves the audience that is prepared to challenge and question. That does not mean everything is either correct or appropriate but the audience can make its own judgement. People who can think for themselves decide how much they support or disagree with a viewpoint, that doesn’t make the site negative per se it poses the question and the reader decides. However challenge and question by its nature is inherently more negative in appearance, but as we all know appearances can be deceptive. If people want an open debate you have to accept positive and negative viewpoints with unfortunately more of a slant on the negative. If you want purely positive read the OS and everything in the garden is rosy.

Surely if you think deeply about football and EFC you question and challenge and the role of the editor is to encourage the debate, often through deliberate provocation !!

Gareth, I’m not at home right now and don’t have access to my e.mail but that was not the text that I was responding to. Did it not include the generalization: "All we seem to get on this forum is criticism" — that is what I was responding to.

This is my first comment, so what has moved me to add to the excellent comments above? I guess it’s a suspicion that you editorial people are getting depressed by the amount of negativity you receive each day.

Regretfully, there is too much to be negative about, whether it’s transfers, the proposed new ground, the opening games, the injuries etc etc.

Just before the Cup Final you were getting plenty of optimistic and realistic comments which then lifted our spirits. What is vital about ToffeeWeb and the work you guys do is that it cannot be done by the official site. The official site will always find it impossible to include rumour, criticism of management or players.

So it is vital that you be patient and wait for the good times to roll we’ll all cheer up!!

Michael,

I think the percieved negativity on this site is down to the very different mindsets the Tony Marsh’s and Richard Dodd’s of this world have. IMO a disgruntled fan is far more likely to post than a happy as larry type. They are also more likely to try and make others "see" the percieved problem. Undoubtedly Tony uses Toffeweb to vent his numerous frustrations, something we only feel inclined to do if we are unhappy at what we see going on at Everton. Richard’s posts usually to stick up for Moyes, the board, Elstone etc and thats pretty much it, probably because he doesn’t feel the need to vent his happiness and contentment.

Over the past 5-10 years we haven't had a great deal to shout about and there are things going on at the club that somebody with a distrust of the board (with reason) may scrutinize further than somebody who is happy with the way things are going. Again, I feel this is where a lot of the speculation (usually negative) comes from. It has to be said that the club don’t help themselves in this matter.

I’m an avid reader and the site is excellent if at times ’heavy’. NSNO

Personally, it isn’t the negativity itself that winds me up, rather the melodramatic negative posters. A fan expressing more pragmatic expectation of a player, manager or a match is often accused of grand blasphemy against a literal interpretation of the party philosophy, whilst Tony and his Marsh-inistas seem to talk as if they were the vanguard of a revolution.

Let’s be clear, this is a discussion forum about a football team. We are not dealing with a struggle against an authoritarian regime, we are not attempting to topple an evil tyrant, we only have to deal with bloody Bill Kenwright for Christ’s sake.

Therefore when people start assuming the roles of political martyrs (Grand Censor Michael referenced Communism [good grief] in this latest article!) and giving Trotskian addresses to the indoctrinated flock upon the necessary struggle for truth and righteousness (“Question everything! Trust no one!”) it all seems rather silly.

Sadly, there is a finite amount of success in the game, and although your philosophy of truth, righteousness and a squad of 22 ubermensch is admirable, most people can understand that the obstacles that Everton Football Club must negotiate, though less daunting than the Berlin wall, will likely prevent us from securing footballing utopia in the immediate future. The Marsh-inistas should possibly direct their valiant passions towards aspects of their lives that may benefit more profoundly from them and try to enjoy the game a little more for what it is — a game.

True, Apathy is dangerous, but so is excessive impatience.

This site gives every fan, no matter what side of the fence your on, the opportunity to express their views. It doesn’t tow the "Everything is rosey in the garden" line, and long may it continue.

Michael, first of all commendations for a brave and honest article on a contentious subject - even though I disagree with most of it! Secondly, praise as always for a wonderful site, which I believe gives free access to all Evertonian opinion. Long may it continue!

I don’t agree with your line though which puts together ’negative’ and ’curious’, and then ’positive’ and ’incurious’. To cut to the chase: perhaps Doddy and some others might be characterised as positive and incurious (David O’K’s ’all hunky dory people’). But this is hardly true of all the ’anti negatives’. I really cannot see anyone seriously maintaining that Dan Brierley and Alan Kirwin (the two regular posters I find myself most consistently in agreement with) and I are ’incurious’. I would love to know more about all sorts of things going on at the club (the role of Philip Green near the top!), and like you Michael find it very hard to understand those who don’t want to know.

So there is a whole bunch of anti-negatives who are very curious indeed.

Then, rather oddly, there are quite a lot of anti-negatives who aren’t, er, very positive. Speaking for myself, I believe that the starting point for any serious discussion about the club’s future is our very poor financial position (how ’positive’ is that as an opinion?). I believe that this position has been caused by a combination of poor luck (the Heysel ban, our unfortunately timed poor position at the start of the Sky Prem), and poor management (lots of that in the last twenty years, including with the current regime).

Actually, I find most of the so-called negatives at times ridiculously positive! You guys seem to believe that we SHOULD be able to spend tens of millions on new players, play like Brazil, and occupy a fabulous world class stadium in the city. (In my better humoured moments I have characterised this as a Romantic position. In my less good ones I tend to label it as fantasist.)

But then comes the real divide I think between the so-called positives and negatives: that the only thing keeping us back from this Nil Satis wonderland are the current owners of our club. I and many other anti-negatives simply don’t buy it. It’s just too simple and too convenient (and, again, too positive - as if all we have to do is get rid of Bill. If only....).

I believe that the problems of the club run a lot deeper and are much more systemic and worrisome than the faults of one William Kenwright (or even one David Moyes). Even though they do indeed have many faults. I therefore believe that is both absurd and completely unhelpful to run a consistent vilification campaign against Kenwright, as if he is the only thing preventing us from lording it over the rest of the football world.

To me the negative position is very like a lot of my more right wing friends who get off on blaming the current financial crisis (in the most vituperative terms) on Gordon Brown. It is an unfortunate obsession with personalities versus really engaging with the complications of the real issues. Getting rid of Gordon isn’t going to solve the world crisis; or the UK’s poor competitive position.

Most frustrating of all for me is that the negatives’ relentless focus on personalities is basically of no help whatsoever in determining what it would be best to do from our current situation. There is in the end only one prescription, endlessly and loudly repeated: Kenwright out! This simply ignores the (rather negative) state we are actually in; and does not engage with the options (none that great in reality) which we actually have.

To me, the ’negative’ position is in the end a long and angry refusal to accept the state the club is actually in. Much more comforting to blame it all on Bill and believe that if he went all would be rosy.

Fair point you raise Michael.

Doesn’t it all come down to balance, in some shape or form? I mean, it would be foolish, nay insane, to suggest that all is ticketyboo at Goodison, but it is precisely the same to suggest that all is as bad as some contributors suggest.

When all’s said & done, we are in our best spell for over two decades, we’ve never had such a regular run of European football since the 60’s, we’re best of the rest despite our resources (gates, turnover etc) suggesting us worthy of just half-way.

But the club has problems. It lacks transparency in some ways, athough I don’t think many clubs are transparent in the way some fans demand we should be. Our finances are shot. And there are valid questions about David Moyes’s team selection, tactics, match phiolosophy and substitutions.

Fair dinkum. It’s rough with smoothe, like life itself. I’ve posted on here both negatively (mainly regarding DMs tactics in previous seasons, lack of ambition in games, hoofbal etc), and I’ve posted on here with counter arguments to those who regularly hurl abuse at Kenwright, and Moyes.

I understand how some people think ToffeeWeb has gone negative. It’s simply because there are some contributors who ONLY post negatively. Whatever is happening, their recourse is to complain. If youhad a mate like that, you’d get pissed off with him. ToffeeWeb is our community, so we all have views, feelings and hopes for how it should be.

Nowt wrong with a healthy balance of debate. But it gets personal and it gets incredibly morose at times. One can only imagine how it would be if we had finally got our millionaire owner a couple of years ago and his name turned out to be.....Mike Ashley. No doubt the naysayers would have been creaming themselves in readiness for buying Kaka & Messi and storming through the Champions League. It would never have entered their heads that things might go the other way.

All is not right at Everton FC. But to suggest, as some really do, that all is wrong at this club is a) patent nonsense, and b) turning TW into a whingers haven in the opinions of some.

I don’t see how you can fix it. But I would suggest you re-consider some of your editorial interjections in some of the more obvious polarised debates. You quite clearly usurp your role on occasions in favour of the anti-vote (IMHO). Other than that, que sera sera.

I have not posted anything for a while after getting a few articles posted. Where would we be without TW is all I ask? Having to believe the red tops and the official line coming out of Goodison. I think we are all too long in the tooth for that.

I’m curious to ask Michael, if ToffeeWeb make anything of note from the advert click throughs based on the level of traffic from fans? Does this just cover the server costs and some your teams countless hours spent on TW.

If I saw any of the TW team in the pub, I would buy you a well earned pint. But I’m not, so I will just click on those adverts for you to generate a few pennies for Toffeeweb Towers. And if all fans on the site do this, Michael will see a little flurry of revenue in his affiliate marketing account. Or is it done on a commission of sale basis?

Michael
I am totally with Martin Cutler.

I am totally obsessed with this site and probably give it more hits than all my other net trawling put together.

First of all can I say that despite anyone’s view on the negativity or otherwise of the site I, and I am sure many other posters and fans from around the globe, really appreciate the (UNPAID) work that you guys put in to maintain what must be one of the top fan sites on the web.

As regards the negativity question, I would say most of the negativity is created by the friction of such polarized opinion and character of the people posting.

Some people post what may be seen as totally preposterous rumour.

Some people love BK others, like myself, have no time at all for the man.

Some people, naively IMO, think the only solution for our financial inadequacies is DK; others see it as the route to hell.

Some see Moyesy as the messiah; others think he is totally over-rated and NOT a winner.

While you have such entrenched and diverse views and the frustration of not being able to persuade others of your views, there is always going to be an air of animosity and negativity.

For example, I have the utmost respect for Neil Pearse, Alan Kirwan and Dan Brierley but do not share much of their perspective. However, that does not mean we get into a hateful exchange, yet some posters do seem to get to boiling point quite quickly.

I think it becomes a problem when it gets personal and vitriolic but then that’s where the internet police come in.

One of the other sites that gets a lot of positive praise is Bluekipper and I feel that’s because it is a lot more lighthearted and not as intense but for me it cannot hold a candle to ToffeeWeb.

As you rightly say, freedom of speech should not be taken away and I would certainly not allow the claim of "A negative site" cause you to lose any sleep. The only thing I would suggest is a little more intervention when people get very personal.

Gawd I bet you never anticipated Toffeeweb’s equivalent to "War and piece" with all these lengthy responses.

Anyway COYB

Michael,
I spend probably abut 15% of my day on ToffeeWeb, this includes workdays and I won’t tell you what I do for a job but let's just say if the News of the World found out I spent that much time on ToffeeWeb, there would be a scandal!

It is true there are a lot of sceptics on this site. I am a glass half-full kind of guy; however, there are people on this site like Tony Marsh and that Ciaran Mcglone or whatever his name is. It's almost as if he has a smashed glass that someone has urinated in — never mind half-empty! Are these people really Everton fans?

I hate the pre-season because the sceptics come out in droves like vultures willing an animal (being my beloved Everton) to fall to its knees so they can feast on its misery.

That said, the site is very informative and I love the talk on team selections and debates about form of various players. I love the reports from games as I can’t get to all of them and I really value an honest blue opinion of our performance.

The only thing that turns me off is the constant bitching about money, Moyes, Kenwright and Kirkby. We are a club that is far from perfect but look around on other club sites and they are not laying into the structure of the club all the time and most of them haven’t had a sniff of a cup final or ended the season in a European slot.

I think the message here is great site, really informative, couldn’t do without it but lighten up for god's sake!

Michael,
You banned me for saying that some people on here are negative and that not all of us feel that way. So for me I would say that you occasionally create the sense of negativity by your actions. There is only one site though, regardless of everything, that enables people to "speak from the heart in the moment", which evidently means that so much emotion is squeezed into a few words at a time.

No other site offers the range of emotions and views that this site enables, so IMO, there is nowhere better for any Evertonian to visit outside of matchtime.

Opinions being different is healthy, so to a point is the desire for EFC to win trophies regardless of the mountains that need to be climbed to enable these dreams. Without those dreams we would not have the love for our club, so carry on Michael because it is clear that you are as a site doing a fantastic job in allowing so many people the chance to "belong" to something blue!
NSNO, IMWT

Michael: The site is terrific in general. There are comments that I take with a pinch of salt or that I think "Oh there goes so and so again ...". Often I don't agree with someone. Occasionally OI don’t agree with anyone. Such is life.

To add fuel to the fire, on occasion the editors pop up with a first response on an article they just don’t agree with and take a firm position up front. I think someone above referred to it as jarring, and I can recall two such occasions although I cannot recall the topics.

I think it would be less jarring if it were done by the editors without the special "blue editor font". That is, a personal remark rather than an editorial remark.

I believe editorial remarks — as opposed to op-ed pieces — should be contained to "we already had this chat look here ..." or "this is bang out of order, you’re suspended and / or the thread is closed" type stuff.

In a more general sense, I think to some extent there’s a lack of accountability in general with what people write. I think the login idea is great and could drive a lot of new features. Profiles. Personal editorials. Profile pictures. Search comments by user. Communities of like minded folks (would be just like the Life of Brian with PFJ and JPF and so on...).

Regardless of any possible ways of improving the site, and perhaps the perception people have of the site, I love it; I appreciate the work you do and I hope you keep it running. Just be careful not to bring your personal views too strongly to bear when you’re acting as an editor.

Michael your question was put to ’anti-negative’ posters. I think that is almost impossible to achieve. As a reader of TW over many years, we have had those who ’post positive’ and those who ’post negative’ — many of which no longer partake. The latest demarcation line is between Dodd and Marsh yet on many occasions both are ’Positive and Negative’ in their posts.

I think that football itself perpetuates negativity. From the young age ’mini-football’ right up through to EPL, fans of all football teams mostly see the negatives first. Witness ’phone-ins’, Letters to the Editor, ’Websites’ — all want more even when doing well, all criticise players, managers, and chairmen at one time or another and this trend seems to occur no matter what the league position might be.

We have disgruntled Man U and Liverpool fans as well as Tranmere and Chester all bombarding the local media from time to time, none of them satisfied with their lot. Their position is then countered by fans who see things differently and become defensive of their club giving the positive side of things.

So really it boils down to how this great game of football is viewed by the individual fan and if enough individual fans take the time to contact any media outlet to vent frustrations of a negative nature, then that outlet will be seen as negative, whilst if it is ’vice versa’ then the outlet is seen as positive.

The great thing about TW is that it doesn’t filter out either view and fans of any persuasion are free to submit at will.

The other thing that tends to promote acrimony over negativity and positivity among contributors and I agree with Jay Harris (’personal and vitriolic’ has no place) is those that post claiming to have inside knowledge — unless you are a board member of any club in the world, you will never know the whole truth. All you have to go on as a fan is hearsay and perception, never the truth; without the truth, perception is both divisive and dangerous.

What gets up my nose is when an otherwise excellent debate segues into yet another despairing anti BK diatribe. What this site needs is a ’Billy is a Bastard’ segment wherein that blokes detractors could wallow to their little hearts content while the rest of us skip lightly by.

I have Toffeeweb as one of my favourites at work and check it daily. However, I prefer the match reviews on Blue Kipper and also think they are better placed to inform on “inside info”. Having contributed to both sites, I find yours more fulfilling because of the debate that follows. This is a major selling point.

But the negativity is a problem. My younger brother loathes this site and he is probably more committed than myself as he goes to more matches. The difference might be that he became a fan in 1995 and I was a fan by 1984 aged 5 thanks to the old man. I can identify with the old club motto given that I was exposed to league winning sides. My brother is used to under dogs doing well and cannot understand the criticism at recent successes.

Personally I take the view that we are no longer a well financed club and have to be bargain basement. I have seen the evolution of the club and understand that. I would rather see the back of BK because I think he is incompetent and not up to the standards set by our manager, squad and academy. I would never dream of slagging off those who wear blue. I know people have a go at Ossie and Hibbo but I think they have been doing a good job. Ossie is played out of position but if you look at the stats his goal average over the last four or five seasons might just be better than the likes of Pienaar and Arteta. In fact I reckon he is our top scorer after Cahill in the middle and Tim often plays higher up.

But what is really obvious about Toffeeweb in comparison to other sites is the lack of celebration. When Everton got to the cup final Blue Kipper embraced it. Those boys were mad for it. You guys were cautionary and conservative.

The other thing is that you give Tony Marsh free reign (intentional misuse of a saying) when things are going badly (usually the summer and the start of the season) yet when we start doing well he is deafeningly quiet. It’s almost as if he is your mouthpiece during lean periods thus leading to complete negativity.

This is a great site but it’s a miserable one on which people drag their own chips on shoulders into the debate thus making it a depressing read at times. I hope I don’t feel such vibes when I go to Craven Cottage to see the Yak on Sunday!

First off, I know the "positive" and "negative" labels are silly and don’t capture the nuances of opinions but they serve a purpose for this discussion.

Michael will in all likelihood not make any changes based on responses here — even though I think it’s too negative here I don’t think he can or should change anything. So could the "negatives" just let us have our moan in peace — after all, you lot sure as hell understand the need to moan. Maybe this could be the one thread on TW where you don’t feel the need to have the last word (probably not).

So, there is one problem illustrated by this statement someone made: "The 'Positives' just want you to ignore the club's failings and pretend that everything is hunky-dory."

This suggests that those in the "negative" camp seemingly haven’t bothered to read anything that anyone else has said in the past two/three years. They have every right to disagree but please disagree with what we’re actually saying, not some absurd distorted parody of our opinions.

I don’t want to speak for everyone but by and large:

a) We don’t think everything is fine. A lot of us don’t like BK at all. However we don’t think EVERY SINGLE POST has to relate to BK and how he’s shit because he doesn’t have enough money. We get it. To a certain extent, we agree with you.

A recent post suggested that everything ends up boiling down to "Hibbert/Osman is shite or BK is a bastard." An exaggeration for sure but I can see where he’s coming from — it’s a perception shared by many. It’s tiresome that so many "discussions" become so formulaic and it has kept me away in the past (not from reading the front page and the news but certainly from the comments).

It’s not about censoring opinions or even about positive v. negative ... IT’S JUST BORING. We understand... we semi-agree... but we can’t take every bloody day the same exact moaning complaints and insults about being naive and idiotic for not joining in on 24/7 negativity.

I know the argument is: well post some "positive" articles to counter-balance. However, it becomes exhausting to then watch a stream of comments calling you naive and an apologist and so forth... it’s not much fun and thus some people steer clear.

b) Moyes. Probably the biggest split. Let me state this as clearly as possible: NONE of us are 100% happy with finishing 5th and not winning anything. However, there have been times when a fair number have called for Moyes to go and that’s where we quite rightly wonder, "no other Prem manager has done more with less — why would we sack someone when there is literally not a single other manager who has proven they could win more with the resources we have?"
c) Money. People spend the six months leading up to the window talking about how "I bet that idiot BK doesn’t spend anything" and then after the window we have to read thousands of words about how outraged they are that he didn’t spend anything. For the "positives" it’s just reality: we have no money; we spent no money... what’s to get upset about? Yeah you can get upset that we don’t have any money but does every post have to be about that?

d) NSNO. It’s not as if we don’t agree with this or love it as a motto. It’s just that if EFC were a person we’d be 55 years old, have a shit job, coming off a bankruptcy, and expect to have a 6 bedroom house, a pool, and a Bentley because that’s what we had in our early 30s. We’re making £25k a year — no matter how high our standards, history and expectations, maybe it’s just not going to happen right now. Unless a rich relative dies or we win the lottery, it’s pointless being upset when we can’t buy the biggest house for sale.

If that 55-year-old bloke worked with you, would you want to spend every single day listening to how in the 80s he was super rich and he got laid all the time and he used to be great and he can get it all back if only... if only... and it’s all the owner of the companies fault. Even if you liked the bloke and sympathized with him... eventually you’d want him to give it a rest for a while so you can talk about something more fun.

I’d agree with one thing: the negatives are positive in one way. They’re positive things can be better. A new manager; a new owner; a new right back... it’s an optimism. Meanwhile the "positives" can be negative: most managers are failures and if we got a new one he’d probably be worse; a lot of teams aren’t happy with their new owners, we could get a crap new owner. However, it’s an optimism or pessimism about hypothetical situations.

When it comes to reality, I think that accepting our current state of affairs, hoping for a better future but not ignoring the positives in our present, is a more enjoyable way to watch our team.

However, I don’t want to censor anyone’s opinions — I just wish you lot would give it a rest every now and again so we could have a chat without it all turning into a shouting match.

It’s very us v them: positive article encourages "apologist" insults and negative responses; negative article encourages "stop moaning" cries and arguments.

I think TW is the best site out there however you’d be hard pressed to find a mailbag that doesn’t end up turning into an argument. It’d be nice to every now and again be able to chat in a more amicable manner but perhaps the internet isn’t the place for that.

God knows that was long enough but one more thing ...

Ultimately why do we argue? Even if all the "positives" convinced all the "negatives" (or the other way around), would it change anything for EFC? No.

The arguments really are an utterly pointless waste of time — and I say this as a frequent participant.

We should certainly discuss the games and potential signings (and there will be disagreements) but not everything needs to be an positive v negative argument (and both sides are guilty).

Michael, I think that the response to the current Toffeeweb poll provides the real answer why the site is often unfairly, but understandably, labelled as being negative.

At the time of writing, 84% of your readership have informed, but moderate, views of Everton’s dealings during the transfer window. As the reality is that it’s far too soon for anyone, probably including Moyes himself, to genuinely know how we fared, you’d have to conclude that these respondents represent the “sensible” element of your readers.

The thing is though, in just about any walk of life, reasonable people with mild opinions feel compelled to express them far less frequently and do so far less forcibly than those with more extreme views. My suspicion is that the less opinionated 84% of your readership are, to a large extent, a silent majority. Silent or not, it’s fair to say that ToffeeWeb visitors are actually slightly more positive than might be expected: those that are cautiously optimistic (43%) outnumber those who are a slightly concerned (41%).

However, when you look at those with more extreme opinions, adherents to the Tony Marsh school of determined pessimism seem to outnumber the Richard Dodd’s blinkered idealists by around three to one (12% to 4%). I suspect that these are the people who form the vocal minority which provides much of the non-editorial content on the site. When a similar 3:1 ratio is often reflected in contributions to mailbag threads etc, it’s very easy to understand how an occasional visitor could be deterred by a pervasive feeling of negativity.

Thank you for addressing the main issue with your fine site.

Toffeeweb offers an unusual quality of contributions and - relative to fan site norms - is literate and even intellectual. This is partly because of your standards (and Lyndon’s) and partly down to the contributors you attract.

When your site is put forward for awards and sometimes wins them it deserves them. It is — in general — ’a cut above’. Well done.

But on the question of whether the site is ’negative’ towards the current powers-that-be at EFC (in terms of editorial balance and contributors’ attitudes) I think the honest answer is ’yes’.

Some think that the glass is half-full because we are so much better placed than we were 7 years ago. Some think it half-empty because we have only achieved what we have.

On the whole Toffeeweb is seen as representing the negative, ‘half-empty’ position. Can you change this by accepting more contributions that are positive and fewer that are negative? And if you can — do you want to?

But whatever — keep it up — you are greatly appreciated.

I thought I would make a comment regarding ToffeeWeb being thought of as a “negative“ Website. What I think is the main use of ToffeeWeb, whether intended or not, is for people to “Get it of their chest”.
At the moment, a large section of Evertonians are feeling very insecure about there club. In a word... FEAR.

• Fear that our great club will no longer be challenging for honors;
• Fear that we look around at our rivals and how they are investing huge amounts compared to us;
• Fear that our identity will be dissolved by moving to Kirkby;
• Fear that our manager will leave to Man U;
• Fear that we see that our club is not thought of by the media as a “Big Club”.
• All these concerns are regularly expressed on ToffeeWeb more so than anything else. If we didn’t let it out, we would all top ourselves? ToffeeWeb helps to keep us sane, maybe a web shrink.

  Let's face it, if you go to a shrink, you don’t talk about how everything is rosy in the garden. So, for people who think ToffeeWeb is "negative", have a bit of compassion for those people who are experiencing a great fear for our club, and need to express it for the health of their minds.

I think something that needs to happen on here is a degree of self-restraint when posting. If any of the Editorial Team had to wade through and vet every response to an article / mailbag item, it would no doubt detract from their daily lives, and cease to be fun.

Personally I couldn’t / wouldn’t do it.

The articles and mailbag items on here are self-generated user content. Therefore if it appears negative, it’s the balance of opinion that is motivated to write in. If you disagree, or wish to post something from a different perspective, you’re free to do so.

In my opinion, to simply decry the site as being "negative" is a kop out... (sorry, couldn’t resist).

I’d say most people perceive the site as negative but don’t consider that a criticism. Is it curiosity Michael or would you like a more positive feel or perhaps a bigger community? If you want TW to continue discussing everything EFC, including "serious" issues then you are dong a fine job. If you want positive, then you will have to design a more whimsical site but Blue Kipper and WSAG do an excellent job of that already. If you want a bigger community, it’s not going to happen unless you move away from what you set the site up for in the first place. Stick with what what you’ve got, warts an’ all and most of all be very pleased with what you’ve achieved.

Wow, folks, quite a wealth and breadth of viewpoints and opinions!!! And first of all, a big big  Thank You to all of you who had very "positive" things to say about the website and work we do.  Many many thanks for that.

Some great posts, really, I think. It's hard to write an overall response that address everything raised.  I'll start with a few topics now, and maybe come back to it later in the day... although we're having a big End-of Summer bash tonight, so I may have only limited time to respond today... and tomorrow, there's actually a game of footy to watch.. Hallelujah!!

I agree that the more vociferous will be providing critique rather than support and that is human nature.  I agree that above all else... perhaps together with our penchant for earnest enquiry, sets an overall tone.  Honestly,. it is not something we are seeking to influence from an editorial perspective.  I think I agree with those who say it is an outcome in large part of the kind of site we are, and the level of critical analysis we promote.

I tend to agree with those who lambaste the whole "positive v negative" thing anyway.  At one stage, I was thinking of adding those two words to a list of banned words/topics that include "apologist", "FACT", "Kenwright-Hater" and more.  The terms themselves simply promote the polarization. Maybe a Banned Word list is the way forward!

Encouraging more "balance' or being more selective with what we publish ((moreso than at present) doesn't seem to be that easy... we can only post what people submit; we've tried to encourage certain columnists  but more because they express themselves well rather than for a specific brand of content.

One thing I can do is lay off the blue font Editorial First Response; I have in fact dropped way back on that already, but I'll try to limit it to isolated Editorial moments were it is actually needed.  As long as you allow me to voice my opinion as a user in the thread itself when I want to!

Preventing "all threads" from degenerating into the usual polarized diatribes... I have trouble believing the generalization, but let's for a moment say it's true.  Insisting that people stay on topic often means simply deleting a sequence of such posts — as I did the other day with Cairan — and that in itself causes bad feeling.  But I can try stepping in earlier and nipping the nonsense in the bud.

Matt Traynor mentioned the need for more self-restraint when posting... that would certainly make the job of the moderators easier.  The best self-restraint would be for the regulars to avoid repeating their own particular hobby-horses — plenty of which have crept in even on this thread!!

Some of the Usual Suspects who have run foul of our standards have popped back up on this thread  to have a little dig; fair enough.  While others want even more editorial suppression of the personal stuff.  So I appeal again for those who can't help but attack their fellow Evertonians on these pages: please don't do it!

And finally, for those making the point that I can be scathing in my attacks; for me, it's more a strong writing style and an inability to suffer fools gladly.  We have a brilliant group of people contributing to this site and doing far more than we,  the Editorial Team can do ourselves, and for that we are most appreciative.

Thanks again for the very high quality of feedback on this tricky topic.

The TW editorial team should be very proud of their work, If you guys intended to create a Cyber Pub... Take a bow.


The knowledgeable, the ignorant and the pompous. Idiots and dreamers. The extremely funny, the miserable gits. The positive and the negative. The passionate, the purist, the wannabes. The angry, the calm and the content. The witty, The streetwise, The naive... even the Realist.

You get them all in here.

I do know from bitter experience that if you should ever want to get panned on Toffeeweb, you just have to say ANYTHING complementary about Chairman Kenwright, the club’s CEO, Destination Kirkby or Messrs Hibbert and Osman. I’ll take that a little further and include Manager Davey Moyes after ANY defeat when he can be guaranteed to get a right going over and be told he’s ’taken us as as far etc. etc..........’

What I suspect has provoked this outburst from the Editor, is falling hits on the the site because we all know dozens of ex-posters who’ve just given up on the negativity. Personally, and to most people’s dismay, I’ll just keep on carrying the flag until the message gets through that we ALL support a truly great club!

It is down to people like Doddy why our club will never get back to challenging for the top honours in the game. He seems to be content for the club just to plod along and be amongst the also-rans. He puts up with the lies and bullshit which come out of the mouth of Barrymore’s mate.

I would like to ask him, seeing as he has a lot of friends in high places at the club, Who is the multinational Japanese company = paying for the naming rights at the Tescodome? This is what the CEO Robert Elstone said in the live business blog on the Liverpool Echo webste.

Tony, the only way EFC will get to challenging for top honours is if the bubble bursts on the top clubs, or we get taken over by a billionnaire.

’People like Doddy’ will not have any impact. Same goes for ’people like Tony Marsh’.

Stating opinions, be they positive or negative, on an independent forum for fans, will have zero impact on EFC’s future success. Indeed anything we say on this forum will have no impact on the running of the club at any level — whether that’s ’drop Hibbert!’ or ’the bloody Chang is warm!’

Michael, this site is among best fansites I’ve visited. Stay true to your beliefs and don’t let detractors sidetrack you and your colleagues.

Gareth Prytherch. You’ve said it all for me. Beautifully concise and to the point. Congratulations.

Michael. Over the years I have been reading through this forum, to some extent you appear to have changed. Initially I regarded you as some sort of Headmaster but with the passing of time you now seem to be more of a contributor like the other guys on here and I no longer feel your own posts have any special merit.

That's not to say, that they are either better or worse than anyone elses but somehow I feel let down. Now why should that be?

But congratulations Michael, as a forum, this takes some beating. Unlike some, it is not seemingly the domain of the young, foul mouthed and foolish Keep up the good work. Opinions expressed appear to confirm my own. This is a good site.

Rob stated as fact, above: ’NONE of us are 100% happy with finishing 5th and not winning anything’.

Sorry Rob, but I think you’re wrong; that’s part of the problem. It appears to be an age thing in general, but there are Evertonians who ARE happy in these circumstances (cf R Dodd, ’pragmatists’, ’realists’, ’we know our place’ et al)

I make no apologies for expecting us to live up to NSNO and reserve the right to moan and whinge at the staff, officials and players of the club if I feel they are under-performing and failing. That’s not being negative — that’s being an Evertonian who’s seen great Everton teams and wants a return to those days.

It took me a while but I learnt not to react to those who use arrogant abuse as their chosen style for attacking whatever viewpoint they disagree with. So now, for me, Toffeeweb is up there with When Skies Are Grey as a fine representative of the Broad Church that is Evertonianism and it’s No 1 for news. So, as they say on Bluekipper, great site lads!

Michael,
I am yet another who constantly visits this website throughout the day — more than any other site. I find it fascinating, argumentative, at times aggressive, yet mostly fun to be part of. I rate it the best there is for any fan following their football team.

It would be interesting to find out, however, what opinions each age group has of the site and what their overall attitude/opinion is of the way things are at Everton.... for example, those who were lucky enough to support us through a trophy or title win — are they content with 5th place more than the younger fans?

In other words, are those who have been through the good years a lot more patient with the clubs shenanigans or are they the main assassins on this site?

Does our constant moaning come with our age? Move over Alf Garnett.........

The site is fantastic, so in that sense it is positive. The contributions come from the fan base and, be they positive or negative towards Everton, they are the individuals thoughts.

If Everton won their first two games, if Everton were a well run club, if Everton had a pre-season that was effective, we’d all be positive, much like the site has been in the past when reaching certain highs.

Right now it reflects the zeigeist. So, no, I don’t understand the being ’too negative’ tag. It's not like it's EastEnders is it? They make that depressing, the boys who run the site though post 99% of all contributions, so... so yeah. Right, the F1 is on...

Phil Bellis: [[ Rob stated as fact ]]

I started off by saying, "I don’t want to speak for everyone but by and large" which suggests that I’m not stating facts that apply to everyone.

[[: ’NONE of us are 100% happy with finishing 5th and not winning anything’
Sorry Rob, but I think you’re wrong; that’s part of the problem.
It appears to be an age thiing in general, but there are Evertonians who ARE happy in these circumstances (cf R Dodd]]

Well, even though I said "by and large" (which allows for a couple of extreme exceptions) let’s stop arguing about speculation and just ask him.

Richard Dodd: Are you 100% happy with finishing 5th and not winning anything?

In Toffeweb we trust? Of course we do. The answers to the questions that we pose and the replies to the opinions we hold are essential in any football community. EFC Co Ltd won’t provide any answers because they don’t have to do so.

I’m 62 and have been EFC since 1961. I have seen boards of directors come and go at this club, some of them good, but mostly awful. I thought that in the 80s we had it cracked, but dissapointment followed, sure as night follows day. At EFC we thrive on dissapointment, we embrace humiliation, we grow fat on the often bumbling inability of the club to project itself as a serious sporting business enterprise. Would we have this any other way? Of course not. we are EFC are we not?

The only way for supporters of this club to obtain a balanced view of the state of the club’s affairs (often mirrored by the peformance on the pitch) is to:

Question. Query. Argue. Dissect. Take a conspiracy theory (say DK?) and test it against all threads of opinion and against what little factual information is in our possesion. How we do this and the conclusions we reach is either interpreted as a positive or a negative; that’s missing the point. The most effective interviewer I ever knew, when asked how he did it said: " I ask the questions that most people I know want asked, and won’t take obfuscation for an answer". Surely that’s what TW is about. we aren’t going to get this from the media or the so called ’fourth estate’, wer’e not going to get it from the boardroom either, thanks to the amended Companies Act.

So, sail on TW.............

Q: Is Tony Marsh certifiable?
A: Of course.

Q: Is Richard Dodd BKs love child?
A: Absolutely.

If I were at the game the two people I would have seated either side of me would be Marsh and Dodd. Priceless. That’s what being EFC is all about and what sets us apart from the rest: what TW does is to bring together the strands, resulting in the fine site that it is.

COYB (I think, without prejudice and till proved otherwise)

The ’happy with fifth’ thing is another fascinating debate!

Maybe it was my upbringing, but I was taught something like: you can only do your best, relative to your skills and resources etc.. If you make the very best of your abilities, you have every right to be happy.

So for me it’s pretty simple. Given our resources relative to other teams, I am happy with what we have achieved over the last five years or so. Like most of my non-Evertonian friends, I think we have punched way above our weight, and what we have managed therefore is a real achievement.

However... am I happy with the resources that we have at our disposal right now? With the size and quality of our squad? NOT AT ALL! If we are to compete in the Champions League we desperately need more and better players. That’s obvious!

If I were a Man City supporter now I would be VERY unhappy if the team doesn’t at least make Champions League this year, and win a major title the year after. But it’s just completely unrealistic - GIVEN OUR CURRENT RESOURCES - to have the same attitude as an Evertonian.

Fifth this year with our current squad would be an even more terrific achievement than last year. I haven’t given up hope!

Having read this piece yesterday, I came back to it today to re-read it. It seems quite an odd article to write. Is it an attempt to promote more activity, fishing for compliments, or encouraging those of us who use the site to consider what it is & how we use it? Most curious!

Perhaps the original points & many raised in response could form the basis of a user survey which would probably generate many more responses & so give clearer & more useful data.

Oh Doddy... out off all the intelligent and sensible comments on this thread, along comes you with something that is so off-base it’s laughable. I have no idea what our hit-rates are, never mind worrying a jot about them.

You could not be more wrong... in fact any excuse that would enable us to cut back and maintain quality at the expense of hits would be a bonus, so you (as usual) are plain wrong. I made it crystal clear in the original blog what prompted it. Try reading what I wrote.

Dennis, there’s no need for your conspiracy theories. My curiosity was really a question about the curiosity with all things Everton that underpins our "Mission" as a website.

Based on a number of responses in other threads and in personal e.mails, I had the impression that some Evertonians don’t share our curiosity... that they indeed consider it to be fundamentally "negative". The bulk of the comments are reassuring that that view is very much a minority one, and that most of the respondents fully support our general aims as a website.

The very last thing I was looking for were compliments, and I assure you (and Doddy) there is absolutely no need to generate any more traffic. You’re right on one point, though: the thread does constitute a pretty good user survey; see my earlier more lengthy response @ 06:22:08.

Sorry Rob, wasn’t picking on you, just the presumption that nobody’s 100% happy with the status quo
The question to Richard could be extended to the other happy bunnies and the realists, pragmatists, look-how-bad-things-were-before-Moyseyists.

You are right (i hope) and I agree if you backed them into a corner such fans may concede to be not precisely 100% happy — will you let me off with 95%?

Rob and Phil: your conversation is very close to going off-topic but the cause of its diversion is I think relevant to the problems we have. This is how it happens:

Rob makes a statement for other people, as in: "NONE of us are 100% happy with finishing 5th and not winning anything".

Yet Doddy has already told us how happy he will be with us finishing EIGHTH!

Perhaps we could all commit to making statements only for ourselves — not for other Evertonians. Ironically, Richard Dodd is perhaps one of the worst perpetrators of this annoying tendency.

With our current squad I for one (I speak for no others) will be very happy this season if we finish fifth. There!

Michael - I think Neil Pearse’s explanation (not directly above this post but a few more up) is an excellent explanation of the viewpoint.

I’m not entirely sure where you get the idea that the bulk of comments don’t support the "negative" bent but so be it.
Ultimately I hear it a lot from people (what the actual percentage is I don’t know) and I don’t hear the same thing nearly as often about the mailing list or the GOT forum or other sites/forums. So there is something to that perception and I think if it’s a minority it’s a significant minority.

That doesn’t mean you need to change anything — it’s good to have a different bent to different sites. It’s just a shame for some of us that this is the best site out there but participating is generally too much of a headache.

Sites which give unconditional support are what I call echo chambers in terms of responses and have no inteligent discussion and thus zero interest. Declarations of religious faith rather than discussion points.

Except for 3 years in the 80’s Everton have for 40 years now been a Morris Minor Club with Rolls Royce supporters, we’ve been generally massively supportive but justifiably critical at times and so we should be. As season ticketholders we are massive stakeholders (we finance the club with cash up front) and we have the inalienable right to criticise as long as the criticism is constructive not negative. I believe that Blue Kipper called us a site of whiners? For sure we have our negtive and whining posters but at least we discuss issues of interest such as players form in a constructive manner and offer solutions. I believe that where we fall down badly is the constant undermining of the club management on the basis of nothing that I can see other than misinformed conspiracy theory.

It looks to me as though Everton like few other clubs, and having no sugar daddy, simply operate within their means buying players by clever transfer activity (including selling good players) and fund operating costs like salaries from income. The top three clubs are not run as limited companies and any could be bankrupted. Arsenal are run like Everton but they do it much better mainly through a Wenger inspired production line of very good young French and Spanish players.

Let’s support Everton but never let them or any player be beyond constructive criticism. Enough of this sniping and rudeness about the club’s management unless the fantasy is replaced with hard fact.

Michael, in response to "Oh Doddy... out off all the intelligent and sensible comments on this thread, along comes you with something that is so off-base it’s laughable. I have no idea what our hit-rates are, never mind worrying a jot about them."

You do have Google Analytics on this site




So someone in Toffeeweb Towers knows. ie your statistician.

So in the spirit of everyone being transparent, how much revenue is generated from Toffeeweb.com from the likes of Affiliatesfuture.com and Google Syndication?

See the code on this page:




If it’s good enough for Everton, what about TW? And I really hope you are making a mint out of this site by the way because you deserve it. But as a fan of Everton and TW we would all love to know.

Rob, I guess I conflated things a little there. My original question was this: is it reasonable to be curious about and seek critical analysis of the goings on at the club? Or is it something Evertonians are not interested in, because it’s fundamentally "negative"?

I’m going to generalize with this response but I think the answer I got was, "Yes, it’s appears to be "negative" and there are people that don’t like that about the site, but most of us who use and enjoy the site, like what you are providing." There are exceptions of course, and there are changes that will be considered (see above), but my reading is that "most" are, like us the Editorial Team, curious about what’s going on and want to talk about it.

I believe that by our actions we are now a small team. Not historically of course but reality is what it is. Top six would be mind boggling and over-performance so top 8, a victory over Liverpool, good performances against the other top 4 teams (but gallant failure) and perhaps a good cup run domestically and in Europe. I believe that we have neither the class nor the squad to actually win anything but as long as we can be proud.

In the past I’ve been one of the commentators on this website who has pointed an accusing finger at the editor and cited his seemingly natural deep seated ‘negativity’ about contemporary Everton FC; from the management to the directors, from the chairman to the style of play. I have seen no compelling evidence to alter my perception and still believe that the editor’s editorial decisions and his match reports are at times almost guaranteed to promote and encourage a ’negative’ version of the ongoing Everton story.

Now, before he blows a gasket and reaches for the blue pen or even worse uses the dreaded ’delete post’ button let me qualify this statement with a caveat.

It is an inevitable fact of life that all viewpoints and perspectives are going to be tainted with subjectivity... excepting your own... your own point of view is always ‘objective’. So, ultimately, taking part in a debate or putting a viewpoint on a website you are going to find people who disagree with you... even if you absolutely know that the position you are taking is the only valid position that can possibly exist.

For some people, this will mean that anyone who holds a contrary position and cannot see what is so blatantly obvious is ’a fool’ and as the editor has said further up the page ’he doesn’t suffer fools gladly’.

Bearing the above in mind, it is inevitable that the editor will encourage and support views congruent with his own and views which disagree with the editor are much more likely to be challenged, edited and at rare times even suppressed. I’m not going to name names – but some habitually and persistently negative contributors seem to be granted an awful lot more leeway and freedom to call the rest of us ‘dupes’ ‘idiots’ ‘sheep’ ‘Kenwright’s arse kissers’ ‘tossers etc. Yet, if you respond in kind or try and illustrate the fatuousness of their assertions with sarcasm – you are edited out of the equation quick as you like.

In my opinion, this is why ToffeeWeb does have the reputation amongst some Everton supporters as being ‘full of miserable bastards who hate it when Everton win’ (The words of an Evertonian who I worked with a couple of years ago)

In my honest opinion, I think that ToffeeWeb is a brilliant website and I believe that this is in no small part to the hard work that Michael and Lyndon amongst others put into the site. Amongst football websites it is an absolute gem, in its construction; mission statement; as a forum for the interchange of ideas and as a place to discuss issues, air frustration and let off steam.

However, it could be better and should be seeking continuous improvement. I’d strenuously argue that one of the ways to make the site better would be if the editor could be a little more balanced in his comments; a bit more even handed with what he lets through and with what he edits out.

But... that’s just my opinion...

Michael, no conspiracy theories, just a bit of curiosity ;-)
I suppose I felt that you’d get a larger & more accurate response if you refined these queries & issues into some kind of user survey. Those of us who are inclined to say our piece will post in the thread, of course, but there will be many users of TW who are somewhat more passive, readers rather than posters, & to get a true picture you need a way to access their opinions too.

Didn’t have time to read every post on here but my stance is "being happy with your lot" as a football supporter is a negative thing.

If the be-all and end-all is to finish 5th and reach a cup final, then we’ve got serious problems. Yes, we’ve done well with the resouces but we must strive for better.

IMO everton supporters are a critical lot which help drive the club on. Has anyone ever listened to a phone-in after the shite have been beaten? As much as I hate them, they can’t accept defeat and demand more, that can only drive them on.

It’s got to be said that the Kirkby thing has split the club in two and created open warfare, especially on TW.

Call me what you want but personaly I can’t stomach posts on here from people who defend a decision that will drive a large hardcore support away, me included.

Generally you can only post what you receive. There will always be a need for balance as sometimes there are good things happening at EFC and sometimes bad.

If there are more ’negative’ posts then that should tell you that all is not well at EFC. If, like me, you want to understand more and are not an ostrich preferring not to know, you will want to read more.

If you really had to rely on the OS and Newspapers for info you’d be very under informed. When you read players’ accounts of what really went on in the 70s and 80s for example would you really believe the Club on everything?

Can you imagine if ToffeeWeb had been around when Alan Ball was sold or the Sheedy/Keown Chinese restaurant bust up took place? It’s taken years for the truth to come out and that’s still the case today, but at least now we have more of a chance to debate and see beyond the glossy shite of Ian Ross and co.

Long live Toffeeweb!

Tell me Mike Kenrick, does Mickey Blue Eyes over at Kipper have some axe to bear against ToffeeWeb? I look at both sites and he quite frequently makes quite venemous reference to the negative moaners/whingers on internet websites but stops short of actualy saying ToffeeWeb. It doesn’t matter what that guy writes he will always get a dig in somewhere. I’d be interested in your opinion.

For me, unfortunately I’m a realist where Everton is concerned and recognise that we have a manager who has many shortcomings and don’t think that the sun shines out of his arse, like some other internet sites!

A web site per se cannot be negative, only its contributors.

It is possible that it is perceived as negative by its reactions to poor games, yesterdays second haf was dire however when you come onto this site you are met with "Everton revert to form", not exactly a great advert for our club.

The first half was as easy a half as we have had this season but as usual we seem to be a 45 minute side and can only play well in one half.

We already have knee jerk reactionists suggesting that Moyes should go/be sacked. These are probably the same dead heads that were screaming the same after last seasons poor start.

As many have said, angry/disgruntled people post more, if you don’t feel the anger/abject disappointment these seemingly do then you don’t have that urgent need to post.

The Mail Box has about a 10 - 1 Ration of complaining posts to those hust discussing footy or trying to be optimistic, maybe the ratio is even higher than that.

It is perceived as "Negative", as the topics are not constructive but usually attacking players/managers/board and telling us how shite they are, yet within the same breath suggesting we should be challenging for the top 4 places.

Anybody who would prefer the absence of contrary opinions should really take a long hard look at themselves...

How many times a day do you smile?
How many times do you frown or think negative or give out about something?
How many times does my 3-year-old knock down the Lego tower before he leaves it standing?

Try organising a demo in favour of something like decent stadium catering.Now try organising a protest against a nuclear power plant on your backdoor. See the difference?
Do you accept the Lisbon treaty – Yes or No? Get the point?
Those who are happy will tend to keep it to themselves – especially if you’re a MAN. Don’t vote, don’t write, don’t worry, be happy.

But those who see things as they are, glass half-empty, room for improvement and with constructive solutions to offer will open their mouths or get writing. Human nature dictates our lives. As does character and personal history and background.

Our NSNO motto condemns us to being unhappy, but hey those short moments of joy and success will always remain with us – despite the millions of crap games and losses. Anyway, it’s those precious short moments & memories which keep us stuck to the club for life, make us want more of that drug and unhappy if we don’t get it.

All sites open forums like ToffeeWeb will have plenty of stupid and brainless comments – up to those with brains to filter and be better informed and to spread the informed view and news in a factual way.