EDITORS BLOG
On the derby scrap and Seamus Coleman
Although it's against Chelsea — and I've pretty much stopped expecting us to beat any of the Sky Four now, preferring to be surprised now when it does happen — I'm glad our next game after the derby defeat has come around so soon because it'll be nice to reflect on something other than the crushing disappointment at Anfield on Saturday.
The new adage that it can be harder to play against 10 men than 11 these days certainly seems to hold true but the fact that our attempts to break Liverpool down were so weak and so bereft of any guile has me genuinely concerned, particularly for our hopes in the Europa League.
A couple of things said in the aftermath of Saturday bemused me, though, first of which was the contention by David Moyes and that objectionable arsehole, Steven Gerrard, that fans love to see a good scrap on the field during a local derby.
Now, perhaps I'm in the minority but what possible joy can you get from watching two teams assault each other with their studs? Where's the fun in wincing through every full-blooded tackle in fear that your best players are going to get seriously injured... and then have those fears confirmed with Marouane Fellaini getting hauled off on a stretcher?
The derby wasn't always this way but as the atmosphere off the pitch gets increasingly bitter and as the two teams get closer in terms of ability, the more the players seem to start these games under the mistaken impression that damaging opposition players physically is evidence of a burning desire to win. If I wanted to watch a kicking contest, I'd watch Ultimate Fighting Championship.
Now, while I can't deny that those YouTube clips of Tim Cahill pinning Xabi Alonso to the ground by the neck in a Goodison derby a few seasons back don't elicit a wry smile because of how much I can't stand the Dark Side, at the end of the day, I'd far rather we played the bastards off the park like we did at Arsenal a few weeks back.
And, yes, I say that fully cognisant of the fact that Liverpool wouldn't let us play that way in the first half. Jamie Carragher's freight train-esque poleaxing of Steven Pienaar set the tone early on and though he was no angel himself (I think his tackle on Mascherano was more clumsy than malicious, however) the South African was kicked from pillar to post all game with very little support from Martin Atkinson.
Moyes's other confusing comments after the game concerned his players. Having made so much in the build-up to the game of his team's "top-four quality", he ascribed the Blues' failure to overcome a 10-man opposition to a lack of "special players in forward areas."
And yet, while Liverpool had perhaps their worst offensive line in recent memory, one that troubled Tim Howard just twice all game, his was a side boasting Louis Saha, the team's top scorer and a very special player when he's on top form, Pienaar, one of the jewels in Moyes's crown, an admittedly less-than-sharp Mikel Arteta, Landon Donovan, and, by the manager's own boasts, an in-form Tim Cahill.
Donovan especially impressed with his willingness to rise above the physical scrap and was perhaps the only forward player to emerge from the game with any credit for Everton. Yet since the Manchester City game he's been wasted on the right flank because of the near total lack of attacking ability shown by Phil Neville recently. Donovan has been criticised for his positional sense in recent matches and was slated after the cup defeat to Birmingham for coming inside too often. Well, I think if every time my fullback got the ball, he completely ignored me and chose instead to lump into the box, I'd want to go inside to look for the ball as well!
Which brings me to my current bugbear with Moyes and that's the refusal to play Seamus Coleman. Yes, I've heard all the arguments about his youth (he's 21, FFS), his inexperience (he's played in Lisbon and in Athens, brought us back from the dead against Spurs and not shown a shred of fear doing it), and his supposedly shocking display in the first game against Benfica. On the last point, as I've said before, I must have been watching the wrong game because apart from being caught out badly for Di Maria's first goal ( in retrospect, and even that's a harsh assessment), I don't recall him doing all that badly — to the contrary, I thought he did pretty well for his first ever game and for playing on the wrong side of defence.
The other refrain from those who would stand resolutely behind Moyes on this issue is that the manager must know which players are his best in each position but I was one of those bleating about him perservering with Joleon Lescott at left back when I believed that Leighton Baines was better and it was months before he was finally given the chance to prove it... and he hasn't looked back.
The fact is that to these eyes, Coleman has shown himself thus far to be the equal of Tony HIbbert defensively and superior to him and Neville going forward in every measurable way. He's done more than enough to warrant a starting berth and I, for one, hope he gets it before Donovan goes back to the US not having had the opportunity to really show us what he's made of.
Lyndon Lloyd Posted 09/02/2010 at 21:21:59
Reader Comments
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2 Posted 10/02/2010 at 05:14:31
Kid pushes up beautifully. Give him a chance. Especially since we can’t seem to even muster a single shot, up a man, against the Devil’s team.
I was disgusted Saturday. Not since the 6-1 opener against Arsenal was I so sick to my stomach. Even the Hull game I wasn’t this distraught.
Everyone’s said it all. Why beat the dead horse.
Look ahead, think attacking football, and play Seamus!
3 Posted 10/02/2010 at 06:04:22
4 Posted 10/02/2010 at 07:37:27
I was cursing, while sitting on my Sofa in Malaysia watching the live game, and watching how terrible Neville was going forward, and Donovan was working his socks off. Kept texting my friend and saying "why doesn’t Moyes bloody put Seamus on??!!"
5 Posted 10/02/2010 at 07:46:32
I still can’t really get my head around what happened in the derby, and probably won’t until I inadvertantly bump into Stevie G La...and kick fuck out of the slimy shithouse!. After all, I only have to be concerned when he looks at me that he’s going to attack me before I nail him... don’t I?
6 Posted 10/02/2010 at 07:59:17
As much as I admire Moyes, his downfall is his clear favouritism with certain players (Neville, Osman and Hibbert, as if you didn’t know already like! God forbid if all three play against Chelsea tonight), in which with Fellaini being superb of late, Neville HAS to be played somewhere, in the eyes of Moyes.
Who knows however, with Fellaini being injured, Neville should hopefully be moved into centre midfield, with hopefully Coleman coming in. However it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if fucking Hibbert walks straight back into the team.
ps: Just a quick footnote on the derby — yes, we were awful, but YET AGAIN them twats get away with murder (the two bell ends Carragher and Gerrard being the main culprits again), and YET AGAIN an awful lot of luck was required in order for them to win.
Mark my words, the day will come soon where we will not only beat them by 3 or 4 nil, but it will be so convincingly as well.
COYB
7 Posted 10/02/2010 at 08:55:22
8 Posted 10/02/2010 at 08:58:36
9 Posted 10/02/2010 at 09:22:22
Talk about damning with faint praise
10 Posted 10/02/2010 at 09:22:35
Addressing the fact a pretty strong Everton team wasn’t able to break down, or even draw with, a 10-man Liverpool is the issue. But having said that I do think we have improved a lot from our 2009 form, the issue is going to be maintaining that momentum over the next month.
Whether or not Coleman plays is a sideshow. He may get on the field, at some point anyway, against Chelsea since Moyes may move Neville into midfield. But we need to accept that Moyes believes (probably rightly, in any case he’s in the best position to judge) that Neville offers a lot to the team as a leader and player, and should usually be on the field when available. Besides, Coleman may be a somewhat better attacking option than Neville at RB, but attacking is only a component of a RB’s job, and not the most significant one.
11 Posted 10/02/2010 at 09:31:33
As we are more than likely not going to win tonight when the Champions Elect visit our sacred turf, could you possibly try and get just a little something positive out of the game?
Could you please give young Seamus Coleman a start at right back and tell him to have no fear, get forward, support and blend with Donovan and push Chelsea back on their left.
Yours sincerely,
A desperate Everton fan who just wants something good to talk about tomorrow morning at work.
ps: I’d rather loose 3-0 but see something positive (Coleman playing) than 1-0 and fall asleep due to boredom.
12 Posted 10/02/2010 at 09:54:05
I’ll get me coat..
13 Posted 10/02/2010 at 09:29:29
I agree with you 100% about the physical nature of the game. Thuggery should not be confused with real passion.
On the question of Seamus Coleman. As an Irishman (albeit living in Oz), I’m delighted that we have Seamus in the team and I’ve been proud of his recent barnstorming performances. I don’t quite share your full confidence in his defensive abilities — he may well be good but I don’t think that he’s the finished article yet.
Personally I wouldn’t start him against Chelski because they are just ruthless. I think he is ideal coming off the bench when we are chasing the game, I thought that's he should have been brought on against the RS as they were hardly mounting an attack and we desperately needed some penetration, especially down the right.
14 Posted 10/02/2010 at 09:45:18
Yes, had a little chuckle at that myself.
A few mugs and I really do mean mugs, jumped on the idiotic Jim Beglan band wagon after last season's cup final. "Chelsea targeted our right side" they claimed, "Hiddink is a genius"
Strangely chelsea seem to be targeting everyone's right side, every team must have the same weakness... or could it just be they have a wonderful left-sided player and probably the best attacking left-back this country has seen for years?
Coleman should have been introduced the minute the shite went down to 10 men on Saturday, we all want to see him given a run, but that doesn't mean he should be thrown in tonight. He could get murdered and have his confidence distroyed. Big Vic must be brought in to give muscular protection to whoever plays right back.
With Fellaini out, we are back to Seven Dwarfs formation, not ideal against the Chelsea power houses, passing and more importantly movement has to improve a thousand fold on Saturday's gutless no-show.
Not impossible...
COYB
15 Posted 10/02/2010 at 10:27:52
Our younger players are still considered not quite ready until they are fed up with bench warming... Rooney was kept under wraps but he was thrust in straight away at Old Trafford...
Dithering Dave is well named I'm afraid and our kids will be bench warming so long as our familiar figures are not injured.
Rodwell is supposedly going to be the next Rio Ferdinand, but now we have signed Distin and Senderos when it's pretty obvious that what we really need is a good goalkeeper and a decent wide player.
16 Posted 10/02/2010 at 10:55:06
I would have had complete confidence in Coleman coming on both from a defensive and attacking point of view. David Moyes said himself in an interview after the game that we possibly needed more width. If it wasn’t Coleman who was going to provide it, I’m not quite sure who else on the bench was going to so I found that disappointing.
I’m not sure Coleman should necessarily start tonight due to the reasons Dave’s said plus there’s more pressure tonight after the no show of Saturday. It’s about picking the games and I thought a ten man shite with a crap left hand side was the one. I’m a big David Moyes fan but thought Saturday was an opportunity missed. Of course, Coleman may not have made one iota of difference but sometimes fortune favours the brave.
Anyone remember a 16-year-old, bit rough around the edges, coming on against Arsenal a few years ago?? That seemed to go OK (well... until he left!).
17 Posted 10/02/2010 at 11:09:50
The lads got potential — but I think we’re getting a bit carried away...
18 Posted 10/02/2010 at 11:13:01
Let's be fair he was absolutely torn apart in his debut against Benfica. Seriously slaughtered and at fault for most of the 5 goals.
He then made a brief 10-minute appearances against Bolton. Maybe not his fault but during that 10 mins, Bolton scored a winner.
In fairness he looked a lot better in his 90 minutes against AEK Athens.
And then he had a great game in the draw against Spurs even contributing towards the goals.
He looked fairly decent in the very young side that was beaten by Bate Borisov.
And since then there have only been a couple of late substitute appearances against Carlisle and Man City.
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not having a go at the lad. He looks like he might develop into a decent player but I’m sorry, I don’t see any reason to pick him over Neville.
Neville has 59 Caps for England, played over 300 times for Man Utd and is Captain of Everton.
How can you seriously say Coleman with his 1 awful performance (Benfica), 1 great performance (Spurs) and a couple of promising sub appearances should be picked over Neville?
For me, Coleman is the future; for now I would loan him out to a Championship side. Let's see how he does playing for Preston or Sheff Wed for a couple of months. If he does well then you can make a case for dropping Neville.
19 Posted 10/02/2010 at 11:25:16
With Fellaini out I’d move Neville to midfield and play Coleman.
Lets see how he does against Ashley Cole and Florent Malouda.
20 Posted 10/02/2010 at 11:33:35
But.. what would we do without Cap'n Pip, eh? Moyesie's general, I am told.
21 Posted 10/02/2010 at 11:28:57
What absolute bullshit Trevor Lynnes; talk about rewriting history.
Would this be the 16 year old Wayne Mark Rooney who had 37 appearances for Everton in 2002-3; 40 appearances in 2003-4 as a 16/17 year old and only 43 appearances for Manchester United 2004-5 despite them playing more games EG Champs League and FA Cup...
But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good prejudice...
22 Posted 10/02/2010 at 11:43:38
Fucking unbelievable some people...
23 Posted 10/02/2010 at 11:14:30
24 Posted 10/02/2010 at 11:58:04
25 Posted 10/02/2010 at 12:00:14
On another note, the Fellaini loss cost us the match imo... and could lose us many more until he comes back.
26 Posted 10/02/2010 at 12:34:29
I can’t see any other option but to put Neville into Fellaini’s position and bring in Coleman at right back. This, surely, must be the logical change?
Starting with Arteta will give no protection to the back four and against Chelsea we need a balanced team and a great all-round performance to go with it.
But whatever the 11 we put out, I must confess to fearing the worst tonight — and sadly, a continuation of the backlash on here soon afterwards!
Prove me wrong, boys, please...
27 Posted 10/02/2010 at 13:11:02
28 Posted 10/02/2010 at 13:24:52
Sure, start with PIP, he is our captain, but come on — they were a man down, we were not facing Benfica... it was time to go on the offensive.
But what does he do? He puts on two donkeys in Anichebe & Yakuba who are unfit; what did they produce? Nothing....
Seamus would have meant keeping the same system without suddenly reverting to 4-4-2, hit 'em high — and would have kept us on the front foot.
Absolute garbage substitutions (that's my beef).
29 Posted 10/02/2010 at 13:31:39
So far as the "mistakes" which other contributors allude to when referring to Seamus Coleman, can you honestly expect the player to improve without being played regularly? He’s hardly had a chance to prove himself. After Saturday’s debacle, can we really do any worse?
Believe in the the youth at EFC — they are our future!
30 Posted 10/02/2010 at 14:00:53
I have noticed a few things about Neville. He is, in my opinion, like a lot of seasoned pros, becoming increasingly reluctant to head the ball and was principally at fault for the goal. Also, since coming back from injury, before which he seemed to be playing the best football of his Everton career, he is steadfastly refusing to overlap and instead constantly playing meaningless hoofs forward. I think he is probably still well short of 100% fitness.
The point about Coleman I suppose is that we don’t really know how good he is defensively overall but we do know the boy can attack and some. I’m all for giving the lad a run in the team, we have nothing to lose.
I would also like to commend the article from another point of view and that is that, as a coach of a local football team, I don’t want to see that tripe and random violence on display again. Some of the tackles were deplorable and I take no pleasure from seeing Pienaar or Fellaini going over the top. Sure it has to happen some time that you will find yourself on the pitch and it’s every man for himself but I found the statements of all concerned after the game deeply demoralizing.
I just wonder what would have been said by the RS if we had won the game 1-0 which could easily have happened given the margins concerned in the game. There would have been no "these things happen, the public expects etc." The refereeing was shameful really. At least two others should have walked, including Gerrard twice.
31 Posted 10/02/2010 at 14:22:03
Hibbert and Osman were having terrible games in the cup final and Chelsea relentlessly attacked down that side. If Hibbert and Osman put up any kind of resistance, Chelsea would’ve looked for other avenues of attack. Chelsea certainly didn’t target Hull’s right side the other night.
Do you try to squeeze a defence of Osman and Hibbert into every comment you post? You’re kind of like the antithesis of Tony Marsh.
32 Posted 10/02/2010 at 14:50:46
Chances are, neither of them will play on the right tonight, think Chelsea give a flying fuck? Chelsea have world class players down their left side and they will look to get at us whoever plays there, just as they do every time they play, whoever they play against. You see that's how the game works lad, most teams try to utilise their better players
Try to understand the thread, this is about Coleman; everyone wants to see him given a run, I merely question if tonight is a good game for him to start.
33 Posted 10/02/2010 at 14:12:32
Just Like to add that just because Phil Neville is a "leader" and "captain" does not make him a great player.
Where was all this "59 caps" and "300 games for England" when Kuyt scored a 4th Division standard goal?
If Coleman had done that, his detractors would have been pointing out his inexperience, lack of defensive abilities etc. Time for Pip to be rested and make Heitinga captain.
One other point is that I think we were very premature in letting Lucas Neill go. He seemed to bring a steadying influence to the defence and partnered Heitinga well.
Editorial Team
34 Posted 10/02/2010 at 15:20:54
And I should also clarify that I don’t think Seamus is a wonder kid or even the best right back we could buy, but on current evidence he is the best right back we have at the club. To reiterate a point made further up the discussion, he’s not going to get any better sitting or prove anyone wrong or right by sitting on the bench.
The biggest argument for keeping Neville in the team seems to be experience and leadership, to which I’d ask, where were those qualities on Saturday and to what detriment to our ability to pose a threat down the right?
I may well be wrong about Coleman but I’m not going to stop griping about this until he’s at least had a chance to prove himself one way or the other.
35 Posted 10/02/2010 at 16:03:36
Still don’t agree with you though!
However, if giving Coleman an extended chance didn’t result in Neville moving to midfield, then I’d be all for it...
Editorial Team
36 Posted 10/02/2010 at 15:52:44
Like I say, I must have been watching a different game and this contention that he was mauled in that match just bugs me because he wasn't. Watch the goals — four of them are from open play and all come down the Benfica left (remember, Coleman was playing out of position at left back); the other is from a corner headed off the opposite post to the one Seamus is covering.
Apart from the first (where, let’s face it, he’d have to be 10 feet tall to head it away), I think you’d be hard-pressed to blame Coleman for any of those goals let alone "almost all".
Now Distin, on the other hand...
37 Posted 10/02/2010 at 16:14:28
Roy (shithouse) Keane said to the players of the first team he "managed" (l’ve fogotten who they were!) something like "you’re not playing against reputations, or grounds, you're playing against 11 men". (Or even fucking 10!) Perhaps if we got past this mental block we’d do better!
Also, maybe someone could enlighten me: have we ever scored a goal from Phil Neville’s repetitive ad nauseam ball into the box from the right wing?!
And as usual Moyes has said we can win tonight even though he knows Drogba’s playing! l’m making my way to behind the sofa as soon as l send this!!
38 Posted 10/02/2010 at 16:50:03
Regarding an extended run for Coleman, do you think the timing and opposition are a factor? Would you like to see him start tonight?
39 Posted 10/02/2010 at 16:55:42
But right now I’d play anybody RB in place of Phil Neville as he’s playing so badly.
You always know he’ll have a bad game when he goes to the media with"All the players are really up for it".
Editorial Team
40 Posted 10/02/2010 at 17:18:52
But if Neville is moved into midfield and Hibbert isn’t fit then, yes, I’d say play Coleman because he’s a better option there than Heitinga. I think Heitinga has been magnificent at centre back but not so much at fullback and, seeing as we’re at home and the onus will be on us to attack, we’re going to need someone with Coleman’s desire to get forward if we want to win this one.
41 Posted 10/02/2010 at 18:19:06
42 Posted 10/02/2010 at 19:22:09
I’m not saying he should start every match but when the onus is on us to go forward and make something happen it’s just obvious.
Neville had the ball as much ar more than anybody and was emabarrasing in his complete lack of ideas. They could have 5 players sent off and defend against the likes of him.
Rafa is not completely stupid. - he will have told them to sit back, watch Donovan, hack Pienaar with his yellow, and let Neville have the ball just as long as he likes, wherever he wants it. That makes it 10 v 10. The last thing he wanted would be for Pip to be substituted.
Coleman would have changed all that and - come on Moyes - , if it’s obvious to me . . . .
Yes I like and respect Neville AND appreciate his experience ans skills in some games - tonight maybe. But not 11 vs 10 against a defensive machine, worse sttill at 0-1.
Be ruthless Moyes. Get it right.
43 Posted 11/02/2010 at 00:47:12
44 Posted 11/02/2010 at 12:37:33
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1 Posted 10/02/2010 at 00:39:15
I suppose it’s easy to be an "armchair critic" but the decision to bring on Arteta confused me the moment it was made.
COYB