I had a chat with Duncan McKenzie on Saturday. We spoke about how flair players and entertainers are very hard to find these days. What would the going rate for Duncan be today?Would he even get a game for Everton under Moyes? Makes you wonder...
The saddest thing of all for me is that someone of McKenzie's ability and genius is now reduced to selling his new book, Last of the Fancy Dans, from the boot of his car to make a few bob while mediocre carthorses are paid £100k plus a week in the Premier League.
The performance on Saturday typified what we have become under David Moyes. A team of Carthorses clueless in all departments, playing a style of football that makes me cringe. What would we give to see a McKenzie-type player out on the pitch at Goodison these days?
Moyes is a COWARD when it comes to making decisions regarding team selections and tactics. 4-5-1 at home to a pub side like Wolves is a fucking disgrace. That long-ball shite we play is also a fucking disgrace.
When will Moyes realise that we actually look half decent when we get it down and play? Don't get me started on Osman again either.... I just don't get it.
I had two Wolves supporters sat behind me at the game and one of them said we deserved to be in the Championship with them. I didn't know whether to chin him or shake his hand.... Honesty can be brutal to hear at times.
What's happening now at Everton is simple for all to see. The performances never really change — it's just the results that differ. Sometimes we score a few and win and the result ends up glossing over the performance. Shite or not, the fans go home happy with a win.
I want more from a side who many of you claim is the best we have had for over 20 years. If this is true, then what the fuck is going on out on the pitch? Is this really how you want Everton FC to perform? Moyes is making us unbearable to watch and I hate him for it.
The late equaliser on Saturday has yet again papered over the cracks and has saved many of you from having to come out and defend Deadly Dave's weird outlook on how football should be played.
At a club like Everton, where flair and guile is being replaced by graft and hard work, it seems pointless to carry on. Where will it lead us to? We certainly wont finish in the top six this season and as for winning a cup — don't make me laugh.
For those of you out there who predicted Spurs and Man City would be crap again because they always are and we would finish above them, don't you look silly now? Moyes is having your kecks off... He is kidding the life out of you. Moyes is Bully Boy PE teacher who can't hack it at this level. Simple as that.
If I see another long ball game like the one I watched yesterday I will chuck myself off the Top Balcony. Watching Everton play like this is as much fun as watching a Snooker match on a Black and White portable telly using a wire coat hanger for an aerial. It's never been this bad in all my lifetime.
So once again, I ask you Moyes devotees: Is this what you wanted us to become? Are you happy with the style in which we now play. Can you see it changing any time soon? It's been like this for 8 years now...
If, like me, you want to see football played in the correct manner, the only thing to do is go on YouTube and watch Duncan McKenzie keep hold of the ball for about ten minute versus Stoke all those years ago... You won't see anything like that as long as Moyes is around — that's for sure.
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1 Posted 18/10/2009 at 18:00:42
2 Posted 18/10/2009 at 18:22:03
I couldn’t get to (lucky me) the game, so listened to it on the radio, and even Ronnie Goodlass was bemused with the starting 11, it showed Wolves too much respect.
At the end of the day, the man lacks any bottle, FFS, you've got Sunderland going to old Trafford and playing 4-4-2, and at the end of the day, should have won the game. I just wish, that now and again he would suprise us, and grow a pair of balls... I won’t hold my breath though.
3 Posted 18/10/2009 at 18:38:50
4 Posted 18/10/2009 at 18:39:09
I can’t see how bringing up this shameful episode in our history sheds any light on the present situation.
5 Posted 18/10/2009 at 19:01:19
6 Posted 18/10/2009 at 19:04:30
7 Posted 18/10/2009 at 19:05:23
If you're not arsed then dont comment. Simple as that.
8 Posted 18/10/2009 at 19:16:24
9 Posted 18/10/2009 at 19:08:05
I’m not so sure that it’s 100% Moyes or whether it’s because we simply don’t have the players to carry out his wishes. The Premier League is a very tough place now and unfortunately staying up is the only success factor.
As a long time supporter it is painful to see Everton play now but the game has changed and only points matter. Chelsea, United and Liverpool were all absolutely shite on Sunday though and equally painful to watch. Maybe football has changed so much now that we are never again going to see the joined-up football that we want to see.
I watched Barcelona and, despite their multitude of stars, it was 0-0 at home and poor to watch. It may be that pitch size and fitness have driven attractive football away for ever... maybe the answer is 10 man teams?
Moyes at United? Not a chance on this planet, he is a good hard working honest man without a shred of vision. Birmingham or Wigan, yes... but a top side — never!
10 Posted 18/10/2009 at 19:25:40
think I speak for most people on this site who are just fed up with the constant negative shit you post on this site Tony Marsh. I will like many others make judgement in January when hopefully we will have a fully fit squad then see how we do. Not many teams can cope in this league when their 3 best players are missing (Jags, Mikel, Peanuts) look at the shite yesterday — they couldn’t even mark a beach ball!!! LOL!
11 Posted 18/10/2009 at 19:43:36
12 Posted 18/10/2009 at 19:49:50
13 Posted 18/10/2009 at 19:58:21
First it was Jags, then Neville and now Heitinga... ’kin ell!!!
We are destined for a lifetime of daft positional picks from Moyes... god save us.
14 Posted 18/10/2009 at 20:04:59
Another ’sledgehammer to crack a nut’ statement that just distracts from the point you are making.
Using words like ’COWARD’ won’t help you win the argument. Personally, I think there is some truth in your views on our tactics, but the extreme way in which you put everything just makes you seem like an alehouse 'arl arse who loves to moan, whether they are right or not.
You know the sort, we’ve all seen or had to put up with them.... "Modern players — they’re so slow. In my day, Alex Young used to take a corner, run out to the Winslow, down a pint and still have time to meet his own cross and head it into the net! And those balls were like rocks you know, especially in the rain, etc, etc’’
Tony — tone it down.
15 Posted 18/10/2009 at 20:46:02
Moyes does not know what his best 11 is... or how to play them. If he does, then why does he only chase the game when we go down. He changes it at half-time or mostly with 25 to go.
IF, and it is true, we have the best squad for 20 years, why doesn’t he let them play? He will always, unless forced by factors beyond his control, like when we played 4-6-0 and didn’t look too bad, well better than this shite.
He wins the Manager of the Year awards on a combination of anti-SAF- Wenger-Mouhrino bias (nobody likes the whinging fat waiter) and the fact that people know that he does do (to the outsider who doesn’t have to watch it every week) seemingly quite good considered the lack of cash.
And to all the apologistas, putting a spoon on a dish of shite and calling it chocolate doesn’t fool me.
IT’S STILL SHITE!
16 Posted 18/10/2009 at 20:53:06
Somebody say something funny... Derek? .... EJ?
17 Posted 18/10/2009 at 21:28:06
Not as silly as you Tony. Last year and the year before oh and the year before that, when you came on this website and said we were total shite and would finish nowhere, we did in fact end-up top 6 in each of those three years. Did you not write a very similar article early on last year? But then again, all your articles merge into one after a while.
As for your comment "It’s never been this bad in all my lifetime" you won’t be reading this now then will you as you will be in bed as it is school in the morningas you must be 7 and a half.
This is because you clearly weren’t around in the Walter Smith years and you certainly weren’t born during Mike Walker’s short reign or indeed Kendall’s third spell in charge. Whilst you are entitled to your views (or should that be view as you only seem to have one), statements like the one above are quite clearly not true.
18 Posted 18/10/2009 at 21:38:52
Moyes is better than any manager we have ever seen at this football club regardless of zero trophies, that is a total irrelevance because at the end of the day he is better than Smith and thus it makes him a great manager instantly.
Don’t worry, he is still learning and will get it right eventually. Hey his supporters are never wrong ever.
So, Tony, you ought to take a hike and live in the real world because playing one up-front at home to the mighty Wolves is good tactics — especially from God himself.
[Bullshit of course...]
19 Posted 18/10/2009 at 22:14:02
20 Posted 19/10/2009 at 00:41:23
Yes we started 4-5-1 because it has been working for us the last 3 years we have gotten into the European places, it seems to work for Arsenal, Liverpool, Man United and Chelsea, the difference is that they have the midfield to back up the one up-front.
I have not read Marshy’s post, it’ll probably be calling Moyes a shithouse, blaming Ossie and Hibbert, etc etc.
It would be nice just for once if he appeared after a victory and not to say we were lucky or we won ugly. He was notably absent when we beat AEK Athens, Hull and Blackburn within a week, yet here we are on the back of a small unbeaten run and we are apparently shite again.
21 Posted 19/10/2009 at 00:55:42
22 Posted 19/10/2009 at 00:56:08
But that doesn’t excuse the team selection at the beginning nor the hoofball being played. It’s notable that the goal came from proper football not ’lump it and hope’ so why can’t they do it all the time? The lack of movement is heartbreaking to watch. Now when Yobo is about to do a 50 yard pinpoint pass to the opposition CB, I let out an audible sigh of despair. So I am sighing almost every bloody minute of the game.
23 Posted 19/10/2009 at 01:08:50
24 Posted 18/10/2009 at 20:42:25
"Well... no actually. He wouldn't fit in at Chelsea."
Of course he fucking wouldn't. He wouldn't fit at any club who aspire to good football and success.
I'm heartily sick of Evertonians who talk of a great job done with no money to spend. In relation to previous managers, he has had a huge amount to spend. We should not compare what he has spent with the rest of the league. We should look at his spending and ask has our football improved. It hasn't. We play dreadful, negative, safety-first, fearful football.
Can anyone truly say that when David Moyes was offered his hugely inflated contract, he was the best we could have done? David Moyes will never see us relegated. Unfortunately he will never see us win a trophy. It has been his good fortune that we do not have the resources of some other clubs because his safety net would be gone.
25 Posted 19/10/2009 at 01:09:23
In both of those games, the home teams showed grit, enthusiasm, pride and skill in taking the game up to their more illustrious opponents. Some spectators may have been disappointed with the final scores but no one could deny they had been treated to a football feast.
Compared to the usual crap dished out under ultra cautious Moyes, those two games were a pleasure to behold. Davey boy was at the Wigan game, most likely planning ways to nullify the flair players and how to drag them down to our level.
26 Posted 19/10/2009 at 01:59:49
Two holding midfielders of which one is a right back. Osman who is a central midfielder so everyone keeps saying on the right.
Fellaini who would offer a little more creativity than Cahill on the bench until the last ten minutes or so.
Yes, I agree with you regarding how far Moyes has taken us, but the end is nigh... he can take us no further, he so defensive-minded that we are dire, motionless, boring, ugly and just frigging shyte to watch.
We don't grind the wins anymore because even the dopey half-arse managers have sussed how we play.
I am 44, have seen the glory days and have seen the low points (2-2 against Notts County at home and Kendall played with a gate of 9,000). We do have a good team but Moyes and Round are strangling them. It must be a part of everyone's contract, they must play out of position.
He is without ideas, I bet Man Ure, Chelsea, The Shyte, Arsenal, Spurs, Man City, and Villa are shitting themselves when they have to play the mighty Everton.
Also heard silly arse comments regarding we should make our judgements in January when everyone is fit, great call... we might have nothing to play for by then.
Tony, once again, I agree with you, we are dire. Oh I believe Moyes is trying to sign the beach ball so he can play it at left back... It has been a very hard day
27 Posted 19/10/2009 at 09:08:15
He made changes at half time because plan A wasn’t working not after 60/65 mins like most managers.
Teams playing us know that all they have to do is stifle our left side and we are spent as an attacking force. I would have prefered to see Gosling come out for Ossie second hald to make a little bit of a change, then I realised that Gosling is as slow, if not slower than Ossie.
Fellaini was obviously suffering from his surgery on Wednesday, that is why he was on the bench.
I thought Rodwell had a very quiet game but it's the usual story on here, it’s all Moyes’s fault, he is tactically inept, blah blah blah.
However the biggest problem we had on Saturday was Yobo, he was the only one playing hoofball, everyone else was looking for a pass (which didn’t show because the midfield were rooted to the spot and not looking for space). Usually we would pass it between the back four then Yobo would either take too long and get closed down or just hoof it. I missed the goal but I hear that it was Yobo arsing about that caused it... from their hoof ball by the goalie.
They were a poor side but they played like we did a few seasons ago, they held a high line and put our defenders under pressure all the time. Like most Championshiip sides before them, they will tire and start losing a lot of games due to the physical strain that kind of play puts on the body.
We were poor on Saturday as a team, not just as a manager!
28 Posted 19/10/2009 at 09:18:42
I’m not going to start on about what is right or wrong with your views on Moyes, team selection, etc., but I would like to empathize with your comments about McKenzie. He was a great entertainer who would still walk into most Premier teams now.
But the fact that he was selling from a car boot reminds me of a TV programme that was on a few years back, when Beckham was still at Utd. Gary Neville was pictured in his home, a fabulous barn conversion in the Lancashire countryside. Whichever way you look at it, Neville was a decent but journeyman full-back who might never had got as many caps as he did where it not for the fact that he played for Utd.
In the week that the programme aired, Ray Wilson, the finest full back I have ever seen, was reported to be selling his World Cup Winners medal. What a contrast in fortunes. I often have a walk past the players carpark at Goodison and can’t help but think that that is what is wrong with football these days... far too much money for very average players.
29 Posted 19/10/2009 at 09:10:20
30 Posted 19/10/2009 at 09:50:10
31 Posted 19/10/2009 at 09:48:17
8 years and still clueless? How about 8 years and still restrained with the kind of budget that even Hull and Sunderland fans are laughing at.
Once again I will ask a simple question. If our players are as useless as Tony makes them out to be then how is Moyes supposed to make them win things? Surely if you have piss poor journeymen players then your expectation should be quite low, yet Tony has a hissy fit every time when we don’t win games.
It’s one or the other, either our players are very good and we are frustrated with their performances or they are yard dogs and we shouldn’t be surprised that we are not brushing these "lesser" teams. It can’t be a mixture of both to coincide with our monthly rant (still find it funny that he was missing when we were winning games 3 or 4 nil).
32 Posted 19/10/2009 at 09:40:17
Against Wolves, who were we missing ?
Arteta (long term)
Fellaini (surgery a few days before)
Neville (long term)
Jagielka (long term)
Vaughan (long term)
Anichebe (long term)
And who did we have available:
(our recognised mid-field, 2 are kids, 1 is new to the league)
We had 14 out-field players of which 6 were defenders, 2 are kids.
Having seen the highlights of the match, and the outcome, the only change that I would have made is:
Played Jo instead of Hibbert: Jo as a left-sided mid-fielder (solely on the evidence of the cross that led to the goal), played Bily on the right. Osman as the central mid-fielder, Rodwell the defensive mid-fielder and Cahill linking up between Osman & the forwards. Yakubu, Fella & Gosling as the impact substitutes.
Yes, I agree Moyes should have been more ambitious even with the players at his disposal, but I would still give him the benefit of doubt, given the quality of players missing, and also the quality of the other teams now. There are no easy games in the League (Wigan v/s City, ManU vs Bolton, etc). When more of our players are back, and if we continue to play horrible, I will agree with you, Tony, but not yet.
33 Posted 19/10/2009 at 10:05:40
The last few years have raised our expectations but unfortunately we are nowhere near as good as people like to believe we are.
34 Posted 19/10/2009 at 10:11:38
35 Posted 19/10/2009 at 10:31:27
I am off to Florida (Kissimi) for a fortnight on Thursday. I was going to ask for any bars that may show the games. But know what? I don’t care, 2 weeks away from that shite will do me the world of good.
As for Moyes winning Manager of the Year, this does not equate to the team winning trophies. It’s a insult to suggest it does.
36 Posted 19/10/2009 at 10:57:31
best Premier League manager? What's he won for us? Joe Royle won the cup, and he also saved us from relegation. Also he has never been treated so badly by his chairman as Walter Smith was, in fact he has been mollycoddled by comparison.
You don’t need loads of money to play football on the floor where it should be played. I know he has been restricted from buying the better type of player, but be honest, if he would have had the cash, do you think he would have bought players with flair and imagination, players that took the game to the opposition? I don’t. It would be more emphasis on defence.
The man is boring the pants off us all.
37 Posted 19/10/2009 at 11:17:23
38 Posted 19/10/2009 at 11:37:05
They both laughed and said, why would he want to go to Everton? He’s an attacking midfielder and Everton don’t use their midfield to attack. He’d end up with a creak in his neck from watching the ball constantly travel aimlessly over his head.
Sad to say, I couldn’t really argue with them.
39 Posted 19/10/2009 at 11:44:05
The only reason we played Heitinga & Rodwell was because Fellaini wasn’t fit enough for 90 minutes, otherwise we would have played him & Cahill in the middle (hardly the most defensive line up ever).
As for the assumption that 4-5-1 is negative, well Chelsea have played it for ages, as have Man Utd, Liverpool and many others. We have had a lot of success and played a lot of good football playing that way — but why let the truth get ni the way of a good moan hey!
40 Posted 19/10/2009 at 11:53:00
I don’t think anyone is saying that the team is not capable of playing decent football, just that they don’t do it on any regular basis, which is extremely frustrating.
It doesn’t look like we are destined to win anything any time soon, but is it too much to ask to be entertained.
41 Posted 19/10/2009 at 12:46:41
The numbr of times I have read scored 11 and conceded 1, or three unbeaten with reference to beating a second string Hull team, AEK, a team who would struggle in the championship and the mighty Blackburn Rovers... What about 1 point from the new boys to the Premier League! Wow — that's progress for you!
Osman and Hibbert are disgraces to Everton FC, they should never get anywhere near the reserves, never mind the first team. Moyes is scared of attacking flowing football.
I bet very soon someone will quote "our season did not start 'til we played Man U on 26th October last season and look where we ended up". If people do, then they really have shown that they will accept shite and we will never get any better!
42 Posted 19/10/2009 at 12:41:20
Tactics were poor first half and taking Hibbert off at half-time was the right move. Without our creative players we are one-dimensional which would be the same for any team in the EPL quite frankly.
So, Mr Marsh, some potentially valid points about tactics got lost ,as usual, in the now obligatory anti-Moyes tirade which is involved in all your articles. That statement doesn’t make me automatically pro-Moyes either; I think he’s made some poor tactical errors this season following a forgettable close season.
I suppose my main complaint about the articles you write is that you always seem to want to make a divide amongst fans. "If you’re not with me you must be against me" seems to be the message. In line with others who contribute to this site, I find this "us and them" approach to a dialogue with fellow supporters overly and unnecessarily negative.
By all means have a go if you must, but stop creating an "us and them" when there should only be an "us".
43 Posted 19/10/2009 at 12:41:03
My heart sank when I saw our starting line up, as why oh why we can’t start 4-4-2 against this level of team, and actually ask questions of their defence is beyond me.
That said last summer’s lack of ambition just about did for me, so I don’t get angry anymore as I’m just resigned to falling behind more ambitious teams & dropping down the table now.
By the way, can anyone on here ’in the know’ tell me definitively what Heitinga was signed for? I appreciate players take time to adapt BUT he looks bloody awful! At one point he just gave up chasing a player and sat on his arse... Summed up the game for me.
44 Posted 19/10/2009 at 13:03:30
45 Posted 19/10/2009 at 13:11:05
You won’t win any points on here spouting your common sense and a realistic outlook, by golly no.
As both of us have mentioned, the teams fighting for the Premier League over the last few years have all stuck with 4-5-1 (probably 4-3-3 as their players are so good); however, if our manager follows suit, he is a "coward" not just a coward but one in capital letters.
46 Posted 19/10/2009 at 13:11:25
The second half was a bit closer to how I expect Moyes to set the team up... and apart from that school boy defending for their goal (Yobo, Distin and Heitinga all to blame), we should have easily won the game.
Tony — you can’t assume that City and Spurs will definitely finish above us this year... I’m sure you said the same about Villa, and a couple of other teams last season. Having said that, we would’ve almost certainly picked up 3 points on Saturday had we started with the team that finished the game (but Saha instead of Jo). Moyes must take the blame for that.
47 Posted 19/10/2009 at 13:44:41
I thought we where once the School Of Science and had a midfield christened "The Holy Trinity"! I thought we played it on the carpet with skill and vision — The Golden Vision in fact. I actually believe the Nil Satis motto meant something to our fans. Well I was wrong. They don't give a shit about the style of football we play; as long as we scrape a win here and there they are happy.
It's a disgrace for those of you who shout about our history in one sentence then defend Moyes in another. The two just don't go together. Keep faith in DM if you must but PLEASE don't waffle on about the club's great past because it's very silly.
The standard which you ask from your team and manager is slipping by the week and will only get worse. Moyes has steadied the club and we have avoided relegation a battle, I agree... BUT the entertainment value has long gone and the fans' passion is dying slowly. If you think that's okay then I pity you.
Without passionate fans and a side to be proud of watching, we are nothing as a club. All the history and David France collections in the world don't mean a thing if we give up on the game and accept SHITE like we get now. Fans are walking away because of it and yet some still defend it... WHY?
God only knows how bad it will get if Kirkby ever gets the nod and Moyes is still here. Very scary thought indeed....
48 Posted 19/10/2009 at 14:27:22
49 Posted 19/10/2009 at 14:40:32
50 Posted 19/10/2009 at 15:12:05
Again you are flip flopping.
Moyes isn't a coward, he stands up week-in, week-out to face the fans. A coward would be the kind of person that comes on slagging off the team when we draw a match but then disappears when we go on a good run. Remind you of anyone?
If you are going to carry on this cowardly berating of the team and manager, at least be consistent.
51 Posted 19/10/2009 at 15:16:04
52 Posted 19/10/2009 at 15:23:49
My concern is if some people got their wish, Moyes goes, we get someone else in like say Martin O’Neill [purely for examples sake by the way], we then play much better football, and still finish 5th or 6th. We’d still be in the same boat, playing better football, but not progressing any further than the negative stuff from Moyes.
I personally believe Moyes is the right man for us, though I am equally frustrated by perfomances like the one on Saturday. Moyes has a lot of faults and it has been well documented here what they are, but let’s be honest, he has a lot of plusses to his name as well. I also don’t think my point of view on this is a ’disgrace’ and Tony Marsh would no doubt say it is.
53 Posted 19/10/2009 at 15:30:31
However, therer is a key word there — HISTORY. It is gone, football has changed so much since the days of Ball, Young even Sheedy & Gray.
Back then, you didn’t need to be a very rich club to compete (which we were by the way!). Now football is about results first & performance second. Davey readily admits we are not playing at our best, but one of the key ingredients of Everton since Davey took over has been the ability to get results when we aren’t playing well or have key players missing.
On another day we would have beaten Stoke handsomely (we had about 25 shots on goal that game), and we probably should have beaten Wolves but for a defensive disaster. However, in both those games we have shown the character to come back when clearly struggling.
I will stick with Davey if you don’t mind, as 3 consecutive top 6 finishes is reasonably acceptable given our recent history. I do expect more but am also realistic to not expect to beat teams just because we won the Championship once — that’s what a lot of Liverpool supporters do and it's not got them very far yet!
54 Posted 19/10/2009 at 15:43:42
I don’t say that someone should support someone else, I may have said he sounds like a redshite sometimes.
The fact remains we are not as good a team as Tony likes to suggest and to use as a rod to beat Moyes with.
He is a contradiction in terms, I fear I am repeating myself but it is such a valid point I have to to try and make it sink in.
If our players are so poor, as suggested, why is is so frustrated when we lose, I did say don’t win because it is rare he turns up after an unbeaten streak.
55 Posted 19/10/2009 at 15:46:13
Lighten up Tony you can’t be as deflated as the RS — I just hope they DON’T bounce back.
Up the Blues for Thursday
56 Posted 19/10/2009 at 16:16:00
57 Posted 19/10/2009 at 16:38:15
58 Posted 19/10/2009 at 16:43:58
59 Posted 19/10/2009 at 17:46:53
60 Posted 19/10/2009 at 17:51:23
61 Posted 19/10/2009 at 19:20:06
As a family of five season ticket holders attending all home games & spending over £2 grand a season, I expect some kind of entertainment for my ’hard-earned cash’.
Saturdays turgid approach to what is a simple game to play is unacceptable. The 120-mile round trip has become a chore and will not be happening come next August!!!
Please, Mr Moyes, think about sitting with the fans for a game or two and see what we have to put up with, it's utter garbage!!
62 Posted 19/10/2009 at 20:31:08
I know, why don't we play some of that fantastic passing game Tony Mowbray's West Brom played last season eh, cos that got them to... errr... the Championship!
Sometimes I despair reading the abuse aimed at DM by fellow Evertonians, I really do. I'm not saying we play like Brazil, far fucking from it, but DM plays to our strengths and to a system that has got us to the verge of breaking the Sky 4 and consistently finishing in the top 6.
I didn't hear anyone complaining when our style of play got us to the brink of Champions League football and, barring a dodgy refereeing decision, who knows what fortunes that extra money and exposure would have brought our club? Some folk on here need to back up and take a look at some of the rubbish they are writing. IMWT
63 Posted 19/10/2009 at 20:53:13
I too remember the School of Science, it was the time before money ruined our game, and let’s remember which teams occupied the top league... they included Sheffield Wednesday, Derby, Nottingham, Crystal Palace, Northampton, Coventry etc. Both Derby and Nottingham were European Cup winners, teams with a history, so history is simply that... the past!
Do I like the way we play? Well, sometimes, yes I do, this team has played good stuff at times. Do I like THE FACT THAT WE CAN’T MAKE THE TOP FOUR... no I don’t, but hardly the manager's fault... If you want to lay the blame for our lack of success then it has to lie with the board.
64 Posted 20/10/2009 at 09:15:54
I do sympathize with your ongoing frustrations on how Everton FC have been playing during the Moyes era. Just remember though, there are always two sides to every coin. For now though I don’t want to agree or disagree with your comments. What I would like to do is set you a challenge here because I think there are a lot of Evertonians out there who would be interested to here your answer. My challenge to you is this;-
If you owned Everton FC and initially had say £150 million to spend on a team,;-
(a) Which present day players would you bring in from anywhere in UK, Europe or the world.
(b) How much would you predict you would have to pay to get those players.
(c) Which current Everton players would you definitely rid of (I suspect we know the answer here already)
(d) Which current Everton FC players would you definitely keep.
(e) Who would be your ideal present day manager who you would bend over backwards for to get to manage the side?
Once you have responded here to my challenge then maybe we can discuss how reality sits alongside fantasy.
This is not a trick question Tony, - i genuinely want to hear who you would have on the payroll and who would manage them.
65 Posted 20/10/2009 at 10:27:05
Seeing as youv’e just sacked my 2 prospects, how about Guss Hiddink ? Andy Crooks came up with a decent one ,Glen Hoddle, although I personally wouldn’t have a English manager. They never win anything. Someone else, on another thread mentioned the manager at Wigan, he seems to be getting it together, just after a couple months as well.
66 Posted 20/10/2009 at 10:22:29
There’s one line that sums it all up: "The performances never really differ - it’s just the results that differ." I feel we’re stuck. Moyes is an effective manager. We’ll never go down but I’m resigned to us never winning anything under him. Moyes’ tactics are to not lose, he rarely goes for the jugular in a game hence why we don’t beat Wolves or Stoke but we don’t lose. It’s now acceptable amongst the majority of us because we do okay. The only way anything will change is if Everton go on a horrendous run and are threatened with relegation (which none of us want) or an Evertonian billionaire takes over. We’re stuck and there’s nothing we can do about it, it seems, except moan on here.
67 Posted 20/10/2009 at 10:48:48
I’m not moaning. I simply want the author of this article and all those other disgruntled Evertonians to put in writing which playing personnel and which manager they believe would take Everton FC to the next sage of progression which would make us all happier.
Only then can we compare our wants with reality and thus start a debate rather than a moan.
68 Posted 20/10/2009 at 10:57:52
Seriously, Moyes has his faults and they’ve been on the surface the last couple of weeks...but Glenn Hoddle?
69 Posted 20/10/2009 at 11:10:34
70 Posted 20/10/2009 at 11:22:28
Eileen Drewery as Assistant Manager? How about Keegan or Graham Taylor? They both used to manage England you know! In fact, let’s have Dutch Steve McLaren!!! :)
You’d think we were bottom of the Championship reading some of this.
71 Posted 20/10/2009 at 11:37:46
Maybe you weren’t listening..or have selective memory...the year we finished fourth our football was truly horrible...
Winning truly scrappy games 1-0..not much has changed...
My kingdom for an Arteta...
72 Posted 20/10/2009 at 11:29:13
B I N G O !!!! Precisely the point I am making!
If we don’t have the resources and finance to go forward then the next best thing is to stand still as going backwards in NOT an option.
David Moyes is the best “Stop gap” around. I doubt you’ll find a better manager anywhere to stabilize a club. He won’t allow us to slip backwards into the championship but on the other hand he probably won’t win us any silverware either due to the current financial restraints upon the club.
I’m not happy with this situation, but I am a realist and so understand why it is.
Unless we get a rich sugar daddy on board we will continue to look thro the restaurant window at the fat pigs inside stuffing themselves (Man U, Chelsea, Man Shitty etc etc) whilst we go hungry outside. So those who question DMs achievements need to see the bigger picture.
73 Posted 20/10/2009 at 11:57:34
We don’t need stabilised...we need on pitch improvement.
And playing silly beggars and football manager with Mr Marsh...does not, and will not prove any point you are trying to make.
74 Posted 20/10/2009 at 12:46:42
The bigger picture is we’ve a shit skint chairman and a shit manager. Our club is becoming more and more rotten.
75 Posted 20/10/2009 at 13:06:51
What about Roberto Martinez ? he has hardly had time to take his coat off, but he already has Wigan playing better football than us, he served his apprenticeship playing the right way too
76 Posted 20/10/2009 at 13:41:55
I respond as follows.
Alan: You have not interpreted me wrong. We are on the same wavelength I believe. DM should not be immune to criticism over the style of play that we see under him. I’m not particularly fond of it myself. Playing just one up front at Goodison is not what most of us want to see. It gives out the wrong messages to the opposition as well as creating some boring football at the same time.
The other side of the coin here though is that whilst the likes of Arteta, Pienaar and anyone else with a nouse of creativity are injured, we have to manage a way of playing football which isn’t necessarily nice to watch but also allows us not to lose (too often).
With DM, after seven years of being at the helm during financially restrictive times, you know what you are getting. In more prosperous times he probably would not be the man to lead us as his attacking tactical awareness is somewhat limited.
Ciaran;-….. “And playing silly beggars and football manager with Mr Marsh...does not, and will not prove any point you are trying to make.” — why not Ciaran? If people are unhappy with what is served up in front of them and if they are always willing to criticize, then offer an alternative which is realistic instead of just coming out with headline grabbing statements. “realistic” being the key word here Ciaran.
Maybe you would like to offer an alternative to the current reality? — No money, no resolution to DK and a ground that urgently needs attention and money spent on it. Unless you can offer a positive and realistic alternative then please don’t belittle those who see the bigger picture and how it effects our current status.
77 Posted 20/10/2009 at 14:22:40
Because whether Tony can spend 150mill on a paper team is fucking irrelevant to whether Moyes is doing his job properly or not!
And I can’t believe you have the gall to use the word ’realistic’ while pursuing the caveat that a fan cannot criticise a shit performance without engaging in some kind of ludicrous fantasy...
There is no such thing as constructive criticism in a forum such as this..just criticism..and we are entitled to voice it without ridiculous qualification.
78 Posted 20/10/2009 at 14:54:43
79 Posted 20/10/2009 at 15:25:29
The only thing more turgid, boring and depressing than watching us play like we did on Saturday is knowing that the only active threads discussing it will centre around Tony Marsh re-ordering the words from his last 50 articles and the usual suspects shouting down anyone who tries to raise the analysis above "Moyes is shit", "Osman’s shit", "shit football", "Billy bullshit" etc. etc. ad. infinitum.
I have no problem with people having their say and criticising those who they perceive as overly accepting of the status quo, but we know you think these things. At least offer us something from a different angle before you drive everyone away from the website due the a lack of meaningful debate brought on by the repetition of the same tirade time after time after time.
80 Posted 20/10/2009 at 15:24:50
How else can you explain 2 sets of fans who revel in being ’’amongst the most knowledgeable anywhere’’ descending into, after an admittedly less than satisfactory weekend losing it like this?
Whilst on here, we have people calling for Glenn Hoddle to be our manager, in the Echo there are Reds calling for Benitez to go and be replaced by .... you’ve guessed it.... King Kenny - the ultimate cheque book Manager!!!
Both Clubs’ fans have to face it that with the current economic situation in the Premier League, they both rely too heavily on key players - us on Arteta and Pienaar and them on Torres and Stevie Me. Without these key players both teams struggle to be creative or asy on the eye.
Wolves did to us what we have done many a time in the past. They ran and ran, fought for everything and caught us on an off day and escaped with their point.
Hardly time to slash your wrists.
81 Posted 20/10/2009 at 14:57:35
We all have different toleration levels, but as the years go by, eventually, the same question will occur to ALL of us.
That question being ’So is this it....forever!?’
’It’ being clowns like Kenwright and Wyness. It being no REAL ambition, no CL, no titles, no trophies, no investment, Kirkby. It being Moyes hoof-ball, 4-5-1 at home, bringing on defenders at 1-1 etc etc etc
Actually, l get the feeling Moyes might feel the same way.
I saw a snippet of him talking on Sky last Friday and he looked at death’s door.
A red weeping eye, gaunt as fuck (medical term), unshaved and generally looking goosed.
Might just have been a dose of flu of course, but I imagine seven years of Kenwright would lower (then kick the shite out of) anyone’s resistance.
82 Posted 20/10/2009 at 15:51:00
You might be a first time poster (jk) - such ’logic’ and ’clear thinking’ is rarely welcomed by TW.
Note how your post does not randomly criticise or hold individual players to account in what is a team game. Addressing these points will help you fit in much better
83 Posted 20/10/2009 at 16:09:23
You are of course right, we should all refrain from any analysis of the football being played on any individual basis...we should of course remain abstract and use phrases such as ’it’s the taking part that counts’..
The world will be a much better place with your ’clear thinking’ and ’logoc’ pervade...Kismet will flow and we’ll all hold hands, wear grass skirts and sing kumba ya..
We’ll be none the wiser of anyones opinion..but what the hell...as long as we don’t go offending any mega-rich footballers by publishing the fact that we think they’re shit...
84 Posted 20/10/2009 at 16:29:18
I think you’ll find we have more chance of us offending each other than offending the players. You only have to criticise the wrong player to upset a fellow blue - yes I know, guilty as charged - but I dont think any of the players give us a second thought when they are counting their not so hard earned
85 Posted 20/10/2009 at 17:08:49
Thank you for you well thought out response. You make a lot of noise, but not much sound.
Every fan has a right to criticise, I accept that point, but sometimes it gets tedious listening to the doom and gloomers who criticise but offer no alternative. So why not offer a constructive alternative to David Moyes and the current state of the club and its hardware rather than creating glorious sound bites that have fuk all substance behind them.
All my points made today were meant to be constructive, including asking Tony Marsh to give us in insight into which personnel he believes would progress this club, but once again you like to take the high road and belittle anyone who has an alternative to your opinions. Your in danger of becoming like a Sun headline – a great sound bite but fuk all behind it. So I ask you once again – offer an alternative. Which players, which manager do you feel would take us to that next level of progression. Its not a difficult question so please feel free to answer.
86 Posted 20/10/2009 at 17:02:49
incidentally , I too was not impressed with McKenzie’s book but having said that , I loved his time at Everton , a one off
87 Posted 20/10/2009 at 17:18:13
Lee,I don’t believe there has been any over reaction.I find it incredible that David Moyes feels the recovery will take longer this season.It’s as though our abysmal start to the season and the Lescott fiasco are the result of some act of God totally unconnected with himself or his partner Bill Kenwright.We have better players,even allowing for injury,than Wolves ,Stoke and Fulham but approached those games as though playing Real Madrid.
88 Posted 20/10/2009 at 17:27:46
Why not offer a constructive alternative to David Moyes?
That’s about as sensible as suggesting someone makes ’a lot of noise but not much sound’.
89 Posted 20/10/2009 at 17:31:50
90 Posted 20/10/2009 at 18:55:55
Over the last few years, many people have come on here ( usually after a bad result ) and called for Moyes’ head. Many have come up with suggestions for a new Manager. Names that have been put forward include Allardyce, Mark Hughes (oh the irony! ), Coppell, Pardew ( yes really ), Mourinho ( lovely thought ), Sven, Steve Bruce and now Hoddle.
None would have done any etter than Moyes. Even Mourinho would struggle with no budget and actually Chelsea were piss poor to watch for a team that cost £250m to assemble. Sven oversaw an 8-1 defeat at the Smogmonsters in his time in the Premiership.
Dave Wilson’s suggestion of Martinez is an interesting one, but it’s a bit early to say that Wigan are the real deal and we actually beat them a few weeks ago.
If I was looking to replace Moyes, somebody like Martin Jol would be good, but even then he is a Manager who likes to buy and sell with impunity and could he survive on £4m nett a season?
Too much kneejerk reaction on here these days. An interesting interview with Elstone over on Bluekipper for those tired of this.
91 Posted 20/10/2009 at 20:40:41
92 Posted 20/10/2009 at 20:43:18
I also think it’s pretty daft to expect someone to engage in such fatasy to validate their current criticisms of our team....and contrary to what Tony says - it isn’t simply a question.
As for Mr Elstones interview..same old shit.
Tesco are paying 40% of the stadium costs even though they’ve categorically stated they won’t be doing this, and completely avoided the funding issue in the enquiry...
Elstone also re-iterates the party line that Goodison cannot be refurbished and that any work done would not increase our bottom line turnover - while conveniently ignoring the fact that Kirkby is unlikely to affect our turnover as well..
Oh aye, and they spent all summer trying to improve the first team with our invisible pre-Lescott budget....oh, and the obligatory ’Kenwright’s a master negotiator’ statement...
That and an assortment of other bollocks..There’s nothing interesting about it.
93 Posted 20/10/2009 at 21:03:30
You started and finished your article talking about Duncan McKenzie. You tried to use the fact that he had been an Everton player as a criticism of the present manager. If this was irrelevant to what you were saying it wasn’t clear to me. If that makes me a ’smartarse’, well, oh dear, never mind, what a shame.
ps - thanks for sorting something out for me. I’ve been wondering for weeks now who Diniyar Biltaletdinov reminded me of. Answer? Duncan McKenzie, much as I recall him back in, what was it?, 1975.
94 Posted 20/10/2009 at 22:12:03
However, it is interesting to read, if only for the fact that reading between the lines you realise that they really fear it’s going to be rejected. Up until now the talk by the Board has always been when not if we go to Kirkby. Just an interesting shift which suggests they definitely fear the worst ( for them ).
There is also the admission that only Evertonian businessmen are utiising the corporate facilities and that they are economising a bit in the recession. It makes me wonder why he thinks that would change just by going to out of the way Kirkby.
And he admits that the transport plan is everything, although it is quite incredible to discover they have left doing anything about it ’on ice’ till they get the verdict! As they would want to be in there by 2012, that leaves not a lot of time to put in any infrastructure improvements that will be needed to avoid Knowsley Borough Council capping the capacity at 40,000 and us actually moving to a stadium that will have less seats available than the current one at least to begin with and maybe forever.
He also revealed that plenty of people have approached the Club about buying it, but ’95%’ were unworkable. Of course, you do then wonder about the other 5%, but presumably none of them were prepared to pump in tens of millions for just a seat on the Board while BK, PG and RE made all the decisions!
Like you I’m not really interested in Bill’s notional negotiating abilities in drawing small change from down the back of the sofa ( an extra few million ) from oil rich multi-billionaires. Most of us could have pulled that off I think.
It’s also gratifying to discover that Jags is the most popular shirt name even though he’s not even playing. Recognition of the superb season he had until that injury in April.
All in all, quite a revealing update on the continued inertia at Goodison off the pitch and a bit more interesting than people saying that we are playing shite on it, but not prepared to even suggest any solutions because apparently ’Moyes is going nowhere’. Almost as defeatist as Elstone and redevelopment of Goodison Park really.
95 Posted 21/10/2009 at 09:02:19
They won’t, so to call my avoidance of such a pointless exercise ’defeatist’ is a little silly..
I also happen to think Moyes is a decent manager...I just wish he’d learn from his mistakes...
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