I have something to declare.
I cannot organise a protest. Or should that be that all these blues moaning about Bill and Kirkby don’t want to actually protest?
First of all, I would like to declare why I believed a protest would be a good idea:
- It would change the media narrative around Bill; "Good chairman loves the club and has transformed Everton for the better." It’s the Maddock narrative but it appears in a toned-down guise in other publications.
- It would encourage Bill to step up his search to find a buyer.
Perhaps I didn’t fully appreciate the scales of the barriers ahead of me? I am up against a lot of apathy and a lot of PRopaganda, something that I have failed to appreciate.
The Kenwright myth: he is a good chairman who has transformed the club (for the better, I must add), hasn’t come out of nowhere, the club does have a PR department and the fact that the supporters have been acquiescent while his reign of incompetence continues unhindered is a major achievement.
It is also benefiting from the arrival of all these foreign owners, Bill possessing a British passport and being a relative pauper (a millionaire in a billionaires’ league) is almost a national treasure with a British press that is instinctively distrustful of these foreign men of wealth and stature.
The board may have suffered a major reverse, but are yet to face any heat as a divided fan base has yet to put them under any pressure; if anything, KEIOC have had a much harder time... they faced the music from angry Yes voters on Radio Merseyside. Elstone wisely decided to move the debate on and Kenwright sensibly closed the book for good on Kirkby. Very clever... but Tony Barrett was having none of it and with good reason. Still the club is good at PR, but sadly little else.
The club still has a stadium problem that needs to be solved and last season made a loss of £6.7 million despite finishing fifth and reaching the FA Cup Fnal, so expect no signings before player sales under the current board. Then again, past performance being a predictor of future performance, you knew that already.
Despite the PR, they can’t pull the wool over the eyes of all the supporters. Most supporters had a two-week window to discuss and debate with each other the merits of moving to Kirkby, a debate that was framed in the most dishonest of terms as the distance between what was offered to what was truly on offer was revealed. Still, 10,000 voted No and anyone who voted Yes should be forgiven as ultimately the fans vote is a red herring.
What matters is this: Can the board develop and deliver a suitable stadium solution? The answer is No and the truest word ever uttered about Kirkby was (from a Yes voter): “It won’t happen; he will muck it up.” That if anything is probably an indicator of how most blues feel about Bill Kenwright; a man who can’t get things done.
If Kirkby and the financial mismanagement of the club are not bad enough, another charge that can be added is that he has lowered our expectations. We no longer expect the club to compete with the best, only punch above its weight. Under Mr Kenwright, the club is treading water and we are accepting it; we are a bigger club than Chelsea in terms of fanbase, but smaller in every other regard.
If the club was well managed, had a marketing and commercial strategy that brought in sufficient revenues, and had moved into the Kings Dock, we would be competing; alas, we are stuck in a stadium that holds us back financially and the club didn’t even have a commercial presence in its own city centre until this year.
He has had 10 years to get the club in order and he has been a part of the club hierarchy for over 20 years; his reign has been a failure consisting, as it does, of two failed ground moves, the mortgaging of the club's assets in place of a business plan, and from that, a failure to provide the team manager sufficient funds to build a team.
He has made one good decision: the appointment of David Moyes. One good decision in ten years has earned him a lot of good will. If only all our working lives were like that....
The problem with Mr Kenwright and his Board is that they are our problem; they are a barrier to the club's progress. That we don’t want to protest and put this man under any pressure is very revealing; it means that we are either happy with the current state of affairs — which is probably not true... or, more accurately, that we are concerned about the future under a new owner — which I have some sympathy with. I wouldn’t want a human rights abuser (Shinawatra) or an Emirati slave state billionaire running the club.
I have to accept that protesting is now seen as Kopite or Geordie which was not the case in 1998. Ask Peter Johnson.
I would like to end this on a positive note and conclude that things may get better; Mr Kenwright will sell up at a bargain basement price to a billionaire who will give the club the money, drive and ambition that will lead us to glory. Realistically, it will probably be the Fortress Sports Fund, part two, as he seeks to hold on to power and hopes that another ground-move proposal falls into his lap, as Kirkby did.
The sad truth is that Mr Kenwright has no credibility... and — beyond KEIOC and the shareholders that he has silenced — no opposition. The Board have been failing the club for many years... they are not about to do the honourable thing — resign and put the club up for sale; that is why they should be put under pressure to do so. Apathy is the only thing keeping Mr Kenwright at the club; sadly it is also holding the club back.
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1 Posted 07/12/2009 at 08:46:56
Chris - Don’t you think " the chapter is over and the book is closed" has a certain ring to it like "ringfenced" , "cheque in post" etc etc etc. Hope not though, couldn’t go through that Kirkby thing again.
2 Posted 07/12/2009 at 09:02:39
3 Posted 07/12/2009 at 09:23:56
4 Posted 07/12/2009 at 09:33:04
5 Posted 07/12/2009 at 09:55:02
6 Posted 07/12/2009 at 10:36:50
7 Posted 07/12/2009 at 11:35:25
In my opinion they do not have the finances to move ahead with this plan, because if they had then the protests would have been fierce, instead Mr Elstone capitiulates immediately and starts talking about ground share.
A few days later Mr Kenwright categorically states that the book is closed on DK — not the message you want to send to Mr Leahy if you are fully commited to the partnership with Tesco.
The final nail for me was the whole of the ground singing "Fuck off to Norway, the city's all ours" at the Derby game.
8 Posted 07/12/2009 at 12:01:46
9 Posted 07/12/2009 at 12:37:21
Ciaran: Father Ted. Spot on.
10 Posted 07/12/2009 at 20:20:10
I think he never realised how much shit he would recieve, not to mention the fact he would never find the finance which would have made him look the fool to all his Doddys and media chums who sing his praises each day.
11 Posted 08/12/2009 at 02:08:59
You started by saying that you CAN’T organise a protest. Why?
12 Posted 08/12/2009 at 02:25:42
13 Posted 08/12/2009 at 08:56:55
I keep repeating it, yet it still seems to be ignored. No Chairman in the world could make EFC a profit making club whilst in the current stadium, and with the current financial distribution, without reducing expenditure (i.e. buying new players, and increasing contracts).
14 Posted 08/12/2009 at 10:12:38
It appears to me that it should actually read I cannot BE ARSED to organise a protest.
In the early days of KEIOC I didn’t listen to a lot of what they were saying because I didn’t like how they appeared to be going about their business but to give credit where it’s due they didn’t say we can’t protest against DK because the fans are apathetic.
If you want to protest, go right ahead. If your points are valid and you go about it the right way the fans will support you but it’s a bit lame to say that I cannot protest because noone else wants to.
15 Posted 08/12/2009 at 11:40:00
Why not look up the word 'apathy'?
Dan: Propaganda does matter, read Gareth stating that he doesn’t like Keioc holding the club to account while giving the club carte blanche. And not everyone reads ToffeeWeb.
If you think that Bill Kenwright is a good chairman, then try to convince me. Sadly your criticisms of my article are self-serving and selective. You defend the mortgaging of assets; but ignore the fact that he does this because he has been unable to develop the business of EFC unlike other clubs. There is also the stadium failures to take into account.
I have tried to be fair to the man Dan, I have even reigned some of the venom that got me labeled an extreme BK hater. I have even given him credit for the appointment of David Moyes, alas beyond that there is nothing.
Then again this article is not really about the merits of BK. It's the apathy... everyone moans and that's it.
16 Posted 08/12/2009 at 13:13:05
We also have those that believe a billionaire has come in for Everton, and been rejected as the club is ’not for sale’ and scuttled back off to his yacht.
I believe in something completely different, called ’results’. Everton have steadily improved over the years, this is something I recognise which you don’t even mention. People make up the story that Walter suggested him to BK. There is no proven truth in it whatsoever, but the cap fits for some so they bleat on about it. The improvement has been achieved, by all at the club. not just DM and BK, but all those involved. It is the board that have funded the current Everton Squad with the exception of Hibbert and Osman. It is that same board that has invested in youth enough to see the likes of Rooney, Vaughan, Anichebe, Rodwell, Baxter & Agard etc. come through the ranks.
We are the only recent team to break the top 4 in recent history, and finished 5th twice in the last two seasons. And this has been achieved, by just about living within the clubs means. This season has seen us injury ravaged, and slip behind. This is what happens when you have little money.
BK could have pumped another 30 million into the squad in the summer, I am certain he could have got his hands on it. But now you have seen the account figures, how would we have paid it back exactly? How long until we would go into administration? So speaking of moving on, what chairman would be able to provide 10 - 20 million a season for players, and a new stadium without bankrupting the club?
I do think BK should move on now that DK is dead, but I honestly havent got a clue how a new chairman is expected to do any better with the resources available. He will also have his hands tied, unless he bankrolls a new stadium by himself.
17 Posted 08/12/2009 at 13:40:16
Apathy: an absence of emotion or enthusiasm; the trait of lacking enthusiasm for or interest in things generally.
If you tried, you didn’t try that hard, this is the first I’ve heard of your one-man mission to protest against Blue Bill. So maybe the passion you obviously believe you have isn’t that strong.
I also didn’t state that I "don’t like Keioc holding the club to account while giving the club carte blanche". I simply admitted to the fact that their early moves to sway my vote failed because I missed what they were saying because of how they were saying it.
I also accept the fact that I am merely a Season Ticket holder not a shareholder, let alone a major shareholder, and as such I choose whether to buy again next year or not.
Might I suggest that if you are truly passionate about the club being taken over then you start researching very rich people and e-mail them with your big sell.
I have said before that, in my opinion, if somebody who really did have the sort of money we need, really did want to buy the club they would make it happen. I’m damn certain if I had that sort of money I could make it happen.
18 Posted 08/12/2009 at 14:31:56
Can you point out to me all those comments from people who believe a billionaire has come in for Everton and been rejected ?
19 Posted 08/12/2009 at 14:58:04
Do you really think it's David you should be putting that suggestion to Gareth?
20 Posted 08/12/2009 at 16:11:39
In fact that is why I used the term ’carte blanche’, I haven’t forgotten your first mailbag contribution to TW in which you displayed this trait. Gareth you are the only person to go on the record to blame the small shareholders for having their right to hold the board to account.
As for I did try that hard, is anyone else trying?
21 Posted 08/12/2009 at 18:20:18
The response is always, “it’s not our job to solve Everton’s problems, that’s down to the Board”. It might not have been universally popular, but that is what the Board was trying to do with DK, was it not?
If you’re going to slate a proposal for whatever reason, I personally think your opinion stands for a lot more if you have a suitable alternative. But then it’s easier to destroy than it is to create, isn’t it?
22 Posted 08/12/2009 at 18:29:42
Also, neither, Keioc, the small shareholders or the fans hold many levers of powers. It is the board that makes the decisions and either gets the blame or the praise depending on the outcome. Thats the real world.
Well, What would you do differently? is no defence of a bad idea/decision/poor performance.
23 Posted 08/12/2009 at 18:28:21
I can can give you reasons why, if someone has difficulty reading, they should not try to solve their problem by jabbing a rusty six-inch nail in their eye.
It would hurt, it would be stupid, pointless, it might kill them, upset their friends and would make reading worse not better.
I’m not now obliged to give any alternative eye-improvement information or erm...anything!
(I’m not an eye ’expert’ but in this instance, what I’m saying is 100% right).
Personally, I am more than happy if people point out that something is OBVIOUSLY stupid and don’t feel they’re obliged to provide a ’solution’
By the way, why do you refer to KEIOC as ’experts’
To my knowledge, they’ve never claimed to be experts.
So in answer to your question "Am I the only person reading Toffeeweb who...blah blah"
My answer is I REALLY hope so.
24 Posted 08/12/2009 at 18:50:13
25 Posted 08/12/2009 at 19:29:36
What we got was outright opposition to it, which is fair enough if you believe that there was absolutely nothing of merit in the proposal, but along with that came levels of bile and hatred normally reserved for our red friends.
However, I stick by my point that if you’re (and I don’t mean you personally) going to criticise something to the extent that you are opposed to it 100% (as I’m sure those against it have been), your arguments would carry a lot more weight if you have a suitable alternative. I know it’s the Board’s duty to do this, and this is what they were endeavouring to do with DK, maybe not in everyone’s opinion, but I’m sure they felt that’s what they were doing.
Anyway, enough has been said about DK to last us all a lifetime, and this thread is meant to be about apathy. I think you’re right, there is apathy amongst the fans about the Board, but is that because they really hate everything they do, but can’t be bothered about it, or because they accept that things aren’t going to improve until a benevolent billionaire comes along (or even that the Sky bubble bursts and “bigger” clubs i.e. those with more debt, go tits up)?
The recent financial results show that, despite record turnover, we lost more than £6m (OK, I know this is after player amortisation, so to a certain extent, it’s not true loss as it is not based on current player values), and that 62% of the turnover (about £50m) went on player wages.
Organic growth alone is never going to catch us up to the likes of Chelsea and Man City, with their completely unsustainable business models being underwritten by billionaires (for how long….?), nor Man Utd or Liverpool, whose business models absolutely demand constant Champions’ League qualification, without which it’s squeaky bum time, but with the fortune of starting from a position of strength with their noses in the CL trough at the right time (let’s see how that affects Liverpool if, God willing, they don’t qualify for the CL this season).
This, I believe, is the reason why DK was being pursued, to attract the investment (contrary to popular belief on here, I believe BK would gladly be shot of the shares he owns, with a decent profit, obviously, if it meant he could, in his eyes, pass the torch on to someone who can pump millions into the club) the club needs to go to that next level (I don’t think it was about the extra £6m a year that may have come from the move).
The alternative (continued borrowing being underwritten by Philip Green, for example) is a Leeds-like gamble on getting into the CL…
26 Posted 08/12/2009 at 19:30:09
Thanks for caring enough to give me your feedback
27 Posted 08/12/2009 at 19:33:23
I’m not a businessman, Bob, but I know a bad idea when I see it; Kirkby didn’t have enough positives about it and that is before you list the negatives. I am in agreement with Elstone and Keioc on one thing — the club must be facility-led, meaning a stadium that will allow the club to be self-sufficent and competitive. This I believe is the consensus amongst all blues.
Unfortunately, there is little appetite for change and that is probably down to a cultural change amongst the fans. This has happened under Kenwright's stewardship, he has played a key part in this process, managing expectations, making excuses and playing the sentiment card at every opportune moment.
28 Posted 08/12/2009 at 20:26:33
It is the complete failure of KEIOC and its allies to produce anything like this which destroys their credibility. For a graphic example, go to the ’TW on the Board’ thread and see Colin Fitzpatrick’s repeated and pathetic refusal to provide any justification for the KEIOC claim that ’innovative funding mechanisms’ can raise £50M+ of additional funding for a new ground (additional to what the club says it could raise for Kirkby).
In the end, you can’t just continue to say ’we can afford much better than Kirkby - but I can’t tell you how’. After all these years that is simply indulgent and irresponsible.
29 Posted 08/12/2009 at 20:35:34
It is to the team’s credit that they have done that despite the financial back up other teams have received, which is why we’ve reached the glass ceiling and are in danger of falling away (though I do believe that, on paper, our squad is stronger than it has been for some time – injuries allowing!).
I think it comes back to how we’re going to take that next step, because continuing as we have been won’t do it, and it comes back to the 2 alternatives I mentioned above, being bought by a billionaire or taking a punt on borrowing millions. The former appears unlikely at this time (and I don’t want to start another discussion on why we haven’t been bought yet), the latter is exceedingly risky.
This, I believe, is why there’s apathy – the alternatives are unlikely or risky, and while we’ve been performing well over recent years, the need to change isn’t as potent. Maybe a relegation struggle would provide that impetus (though I’m sure we’d rather not go there).
You mentioned the pressure that Johnson was under to quit back in 98, and I think how things have changed even in those 11 years. Our dependence on Sky money has increased (the increase in turnover has just meant bigger transfer fees and bigger wages), Chelsea and Man City have subverted the business models of all other clubs, and the financial trough of the Champions League has only widened the gap between those in it and those not in it.
BK is clearly in over his head, he knows it and the fans know it. The problem is no-one seems to have a way out of it now that DK has gone. Is it BK’s fault that we haven’t made that next step? As the man in charge, the logical answer would be yes, but what else could he have done? Further borrowing just increases the risks of failure. He could have spent more of the Sky money on redeveloping GP over the past 10 years, but where would that have left us on the pitch?
If Philip Green is indeed pulling the strings via his underwriting of Everton’s loans, I think we’re going to see a quick payback (Rodwell to Man Utd?). Maybe, just maybe, there’s the possibility of him being central to another facility-led development within Liverpool. We could do with some help from LCC now though…
30 Posted 08/12/2009 at 20:24:22
Spot on, I left Merseyside 26 years ago and it's clear the drip drip of mediocrity has worn down the fans. As an ipbr />For what its worth I detect the same with LFC fans, god help them if they had to put up with what we have. I never thought in my lifetime Everton would be not about winning trophies but avoiding the drop.
31 Posted 08/12/2009 at 20:53:10
As for funding, the board couldn’t provide evidence that they could fund Kirkby, so your actually holding Colin and Keioc to a higher standard than the club.
Bob: I agree a lot with what you say, but I don’t want the team to lose and get relegated in order to get Bill out. I always want the team to win.
Nothing is without risk, but the club needs finance, ideas and ambition things that Bill and the board lack. If we are to get a new owner Bill has to sell, he can do it at a bargain basement price and get 12 million for his 25% stake or he could build a new park end stand with two tiers putting 8000 on the capacity which will add value before selling up.
Doing nothing and hoping things will improve is not an option. A change is required, but he won’t leave quietly.
32 Posted 08/12/2009 at 21:13:35
33 Posted 08/12/2009 at 21:31:33
I note that this is a very big claim, and if true would utterly change our prospects of securing the kind of ground we all want. So I just ask (a few times): can you give me any general sense of how this major increased in funds would be raised? No answer, except the handwaving gesture that ’thinking outside the box’ would be a good thing. If you make such big claims, you’ve really got to do a bit better than that.
I know the arguments for increased Kirkby revenues were not satisfying to many (essentially: at least the same attendances x higher average prices x increased catering etc. spend per head + increased corporate spend). But at least they were arguments you could disagree with. This KEIOC ’innovative funding’ claim is so undefined and unjustified that you can’t even shake a stick at it.
34 Posted 08/12/2009 at 21:55:28
I can only guess but I suspect that you will become aware of any KEIOC ’alternative’ after the ’current management’ have invited these Evertonians to present any plans they may or may not have.
In the meantime, I suppose that the good readers of TW would be happy for you to express any POSITIVE innovative views/opinions/solutions to the current ’management’s’ (yes, this is not the first) very stick situation.
35 Posted 08/12/2009 at 21:58:34
The board will never have told the truth about DK; because if they did they would not have gotten a mandate. Not perfect, but it's the best that we can do is not going to win a mandate from anyone; you talk it up, muster some enthusiasum for it that's how you get a mandate. Or have you used the "It's not perfect, but.." line in your career on a regular basis and come-up trumps? Somehow I doubt it.
I’m not surprised that some call you an apologist for Bill, I don’t but debating with you has been a waste of time for all concerned.
However, Neil, this thread is not about you, it's about the apathy amongst the fans.
36 Posted 08/12/2009 at 23:08:25
37 Posted 08/12/2009 at 23:32:50
38 Posted 08/12/2009 at 23:44:08
Which went well and worked positively for their public image, obviously.
39 Posted 08/12/2009 at 23:44:17
40 Posted 08/12/2009 at 23:47:19
41 Posted 08/12/2009 at 23:51:31
42 Posted 08/12/2009 at 23:46:37
I’m not going to go into Kenwright's performance as his record of faliure speaks for itself. The other board members are accountable as well but as the Chairman Bill takes the blame and the praise if warranted.
As for questions of what kind of chairman we do need its very very simple. We all know we need a new stadium and money to continue building the squad. That doesn’t come cheap. Bill is right about one thing, we need a billionare or at least a group with such finances.
I’m not a fan of Bill and I know about the conspiracy theory that he wants to remain as chairman no matter what but I can understand why he is having trouble attracting a new owner with substantial resources.
The world economy is still in the toilet. It's not a time when most business men are running about looking to sink their money into something that has such a high risk as a football club. Sure Portsmouth, etc have all had investment but I’m not sure they have the interests of the club in mind.
43 Posted 08/12/2009 at 23:52:35
44 Posted 08/12/2009 at 23:35:00
The simple answer is that no-one has any answers or a roadmap out of our particular set of problems.
What we have on one hand are a board bereft of ideas and no ability, seemingly, to display the kind of vigour demanded by the fanbase to move us forward.
On the other hand we have the likes of KEIOC and the ’angry-of-Wavertree’ mob who offer nothing bar hand-wringing missives of how poorly we’ve been treated by the board and, frankly, fanciful pictures of stadia that everyone knows are unaffordable.
In short you have liars to the right and dreamers to the left — who would want to be associated with either?
The fact that so many don’t want to be involved in this polarised 9-year-olds' playground fight is hardly suprising. The thing that needs to be seen is a geniune, deliverable roadmap that marks out how we are going to develop greater revenue.
If that comes from KEIOC and their ’interesting’ debenture seating concept then let's see it presented, properly, openly, to the board. As it would, surely, go a long way to solving all of our problems. The board's for raising the club from break even to profitability and KEIOC’s for achieving their goal. IF debenture seating is actually as unfeasible as it sounds we can at least strike that off, move forward and evolution is served.
If you want people motivated they need direction. We have no direction currently so apathy is the anticipated result. What will turn this is likely to be some word from government bizarrely enough.
If the NW minister is getting involved in Liverpool for reasons of the 2018 WC bid then there is a window of opportunity, as there was before the capital of culture, to leverage development money for a stadium project. LCC and Everton can both benefit from this focus if they have the wit to exploit it for the Clarence Dock or the Long Lane sites. Whether they do remains to be seen.
45 Posted 09/12/2009 at 00:27:07
Off topic, but Steve Jones make a very interesting point. The WC bid should provide a decent amount of leverage to bring LCC onboard, and unlock some finances to help enable a stadium project. Liverpool city would lose out on millions should a WC be played in the UK, but not in Liverpool. It would also be very sad that this football city would play no part in it. Is this the reason the Redshite held off on their own plans, to try and get some funding? It would make sense. 12 stadiums were used in Germany, so undoubtedly if Liverpool has 2 new stadiums they will be used. Can this be a ray of light to give us some much needed hope? It at least gives us something to put some faith into.
46 Posted 09/12/2009 at 05:01:53
And why do you think people say Kenwright is looking for "investment" ? I’ll tell you why... it's because that's what he said, that's the word he used, on more than one occasion.
47 Posted 09/12/2009 at 05:48:16
"And why do you think people say Kenwright is looking for "investment"? I’ll tell you why... it's because that's what he said, that's the word he used... on more than one occasion."
....which in reality means what? By definition here you are saying that Kenwright has rejected, or would reject, any offer which has been to take the club over outright. Hinting that he just doesn't want to let go the reins. Otherwise what you’ve written is pointless.
If he’s had no buy-out offers, though, what does it matter if he’s only ’talking’ about investment?.
Who would even care what Kenwright says anyway if they were in a position to buy out the club, pay for a new stadium and invest in the team? To someone with that kind of money, Kenwright and his stipulations are a joke! Look at what's happening at Arsenal at the moment or the Glazer takeover at Utd. Money talks.
Then you have to consider that the press would be on the story like a shot. Carson Yeung at Brum, Ellis Short at Sunderland etc - we found out their plans soon enough and those are scarcely top-4 teams are they? The press would have a field day with an opposed takeover at Everton.
I know that some classify Kenwright as the next Machiavelli, but, the power to silence the global sports media at a whim I wouldn’t credit him with. Yet there is nary a squeak of outside interest is there?
If you are not saying that Billy boy has been seeing off covetous billionaires, what exactly are you saying?
48 Posted 09/12/2009 at 07:06:25
And the fact that Everton isnt in the ’loot’ or on e-bay, also confirms the suspicions that BK wont sell, right?
The reality is again, a bit different. If there is a serious buyer out there, now is the PERFECT time to buy Everton. He will be able to get us cheaper than the boards valuation, on the basis there are so many disgruntled fans out there. They put in a bid, and then leak it to the press. The fans would then go nuts and make it impossible for BK to reject it.
49 Posted 09/12/2009 at 08:39:00
The problem is that we are now a business whose business model fundamentally does not work. On the cost side we are having to pay close to top dollar to attract and retain players, but on the revenue side we simply do not have close to the match or non-match revenues of our major competitors. Over all this looms the requirement to find a very substantial sum indeed to replace or massively upgrade our facilities.
It simply does not add up, which is why no-one has bought us.
50 Posted 09/12/2009 at 08:39:52
This is the guy who was prepared to drive a coach and horse through the feelings of thousands and thousands of Evertonians. He knew he would be hated forever, but he still threw millions at the project to try to force it home.
Not many people are looking to spend at the moment million and in the current economic climate. They won't come looking, the club needs to be sold to them by somebody with the desire to do so... can you see such a salesman on our board at the moment?
My arl Honda Accord’s for sale too, I haven't told anyone the price, but I have made it known I’m looking for somebody who will pay for its next service... though
51 Posted 09/12/2009 at 09:15:18
To my knowledge, there has been no bid accepted for a take over. Therefore the club has no valuation. The company is worth what someone will pay for it. As it is a Private Company, there is no listed share price to estimate the value.
You have no understanding of the clubs situation. Suggesting we need a salesman on the board is ridiculous. We have had Keith Harris working on selling us for over a year now. And this guy has brokered some of footballs biggest deals. He has publicly said it is difficult to sell us, why would he lie?
Do you think the board wouldn't sell up, if offered £200 million?
52 Posted 09/12/2009 at 09:33:17
BTW, I want 10 grand for my car, I’d be lucky if it's worth half of that... Think Keith Harris might be able to shft it for me? No? Now you know why he can't sell Everton.
53 Posted 09/12/2009 at 10:52:12
Clubs are clambering over themselves for investment. Lets take Randy Lerner as an example. He was rumoured to view Everton as his first target. If brief negotiations with Kenwright (or Earl or whoever) proved fruitless. Then why would he leak the story? He already identified Villa as a great opportunity so he tried and succeeded there. If potential investors leak stories about failing to buy one club, then the fans of the next club they try and negotiate with aren’t going to be too pleased... as it will be obvious then that they’re second choice. So any talks will be kept very secret.
I’m not saying for a moment Billy knocked back a queue of Billionaires, but I’m not not stupid enough to believe there is something inherently wrong with EFC which means every other club gets investment and we don't!
Quite simply, whatever package Billy and the boys on the board are offering, it isn't attractive! Could this be because they ask for too much money? Could this be because they ask to retain overall control? Could this be because Billy asks to retain some position of authority at the club?
I dont know... but eventually the truth will come out.
54 Posted 09/12/2009 at 10:58:39
Anyway, at least you guys have finally grasped that our situation is so poor that the only way a new buyer can be found is if the current owners virtually give the club away.
55 Posted 09/12/2009 at 10:50:09
I’m actually a member of TBSFIBT (The British Shooting Fish in Barrels Team), so responding to your half-baked guesswork and bluster is like practice.
56 Posted 09/12/2009 at 12:21:49
How lovely of you to come back to me again
I’ve just come back from the aquarium, as it happens, and I think I saw you there? You were the tosser (the omniscient self satisfied Eugene Ruane) with the large harpoon that kept on firing too soon?
I’ll look out for you next time I’m there, maybe you’ll actually have something of substance behind the oh so finely developed “wit”…
57 Posted 09/12/2009 at 13:44:33
You can't have it both ways, how can it cost too much, if he hasn’t put a value on it?
Phil, there is something very different about Sunderland, Newcastle, Spurs, City, Villa, Chelsea. All those clubs have much better facilities than us, and are able to generate much more money. After all, isnt that what a buyer is looking for? From a buyers point of view, Villa Park is far superior to Goodison. But then again, maybe Villa had a better ’brochure’....
And your point about being second best is a bit thin. Would you care if you were fifth choice, if your new owner invested wisely into your team?
58 Posted 09/12/2009 at 16:48:22
For the same money the Arabs spent on City (purchasing the club + player purchases).
They could have bought us a new stadium, and given Moyes a load of cash to spend. At the end of last year our squad and first XI was undoubtedly better than theirs. Better facilities? We have one of the best training facilities and youth academy in the country. Only our stadium lags behind.
Does already having a good manager and strong group of players count for nothing (5th two consecutive years)! What about West Ham, Portsmouth, Birmingham? Why have all these clubs attracted new owners, while we rot on the shelf?
Regards your last point, it’s perfectly valid. How would you take to the new owner of EFC - "Mohammad Al Sheik" who publically admitted he tried to buy Liverpool/Arsenal/City/Newcastle and Villa before getting his hands on us? How could a new owner in this situation ever have the fans onside?
59 Posted 09/12/2009 at 17:42:34
(typed Eugene, in his self-satisfied, OMNISCIENT manner - the tosser!)
60 Posted 09/12/2009 at 18:25:27
61 Posted 09/12/2009 at 19:31:36
I was merely emphasisng your own point: If the price is right, someone will buy.
62 Posted 09/12/2009 at 19:33:55
63 Posted 09/12/2009 at 20:08:34
Nob jokes, indeed....
64 Posted 09/12/2009 at 20:39:06
"And do you think if Kenwright went public and said he’d accept £30 million for the shares he paid £20 million for, they wouldn’t be queueing around the block?"
No they wouldnt. This is the fundamental point that so many just dont seem to grasp. Its not the price of the shares that are an issue its the scale of the investment needed to improve the clubs position. Kenwright could offer the shares for a tenner and serious people still wouldn’t touch because the financial demands required to solve the clubs problems are so much more than the £20-30mn you are talking of here.
Look. We all want the club to be run on a facilities-led model don’t we?. Apart from impatient 9yr olds jealous of Citehs splurge culture I dont know of anyone who cant see where that billionaire-plaything scenario ends and wants no part of it for Everton. To generate the revenue from facilities we need to have them. That means seating uplift, corporate facilities, non-football revenue and all the rest.
Realistically then it means a new ground. If we want to attract someone in that means we need to already have at least some money allocated towards that end and a solid proposal for delivering the stadium. We havent got that kind of brass so we need to look outside for it. The nearest, practicable, source of investment is RDA regeneration money through LCC and that means we need to build a new ground somewhere that meets RDA criteria - it rules Goodison out at a stroke. Even then the new guy coming in is going to have to find a good proportion of the £150-170mn that a fair 45-50k stadium would cost and that is before he looks at the club debt or making a contribution to the purse available for Moyes to play in the market with.
Keith Harris is trying to find someone who is willing to come in and drop, probably, the better part of £150mn into the club to get it to a point of growth and take it to a position where we could knock on the door of the CL placings. Any return on that £150mn is going to be long term after we have established ourselves as a regular CL team, if we can achieve that assuming Liverpools decline continues and Spurs remain the always-bridesmaid team that they look to be. Keith Harris has a nightmare task on his hands and, where he to pull it off, would be advised to set up an ice selling business in Alaska!.
"If potential investors leak stories about failing to buy one club, then the fans of the next club they try and negotiate with aren’t going to be too pleased... as it will be obvious then that they’re second choice. So any talks will be kept very secret."
Sorry Phil I think thats contradictory. Are West Ham fans up in arms about the prospect of Gold & Sullivan throwing money at them despite the fact they went to Birmingham first?. Personally I wouldn’t want that pair anywhere near Everton, but, money talks. If Abrahmovitch decided to pull out of Chelsea tomorrow and declare an interest in taking over at Everton how much would you moan about his prior Chelsea dealings?!.
"I’m not saying for a moment Billy knocked back a queue of Billionaires, but I’m not not stupid enough to believe there is something inherently wrong with EFC which means every other club gets investment and we don’t! Quite simply, whatever package Billy and the boys on the board are offering, it isn’t attractive! Could this be because they ask for too much money? Could this be because they ask to retain overall control? Could this be because Billy asks to retain some position of authority at the club?"
There is nothing inherently wrong with Everton Football Club we have just reached the end of what we can raise financially with the facilities we have. The problem is that the costs of the game are rising and we cant uplift revenue to match so we are falling behind. Other clubs have garnered investment for a whole raft of reasons Ellis Short at Sunderland had a lengthy involvement with the club, Yeung at Birmingham had a personal interest, the new guy at Pompey has been sold on the untapped potential of the only prem club within 100 miles of its stadium etc. None apply to us and none need the investment we do for the likely modest return.
65 Posted 10/12/2009 at 15:02:58
I think you missed my point about "leaking information". Of course if Abramovich sold up at Chelsea we’d welcome his cash. But what if some guy you've never heard of, tried and failed to buy many other clubs first... before eventually getting hold of us. Would you be that impressed that he openly regarded Everton as his 4th or 5th preferred choice?
Also regarding facilities, City don't actually own their stadium. Their youth academy and training facilities are no better than ours. But they’ve had two recent big money buyouts. I think it's too easy to hide behind what EFC doesn’t have (like its own city, no big local rivals).
But saying Pompey are more attractive because there isn't another PL club in 100 miles is ridiculous. Could they have (and have they ever had) a 60,000 crowd? I don't think so. Could Everton? With the right backing and a brilliant new stadium, its absolutely possible.
It takes a willing seller, that's all. Which is the major thing EFC doesn’t have.
66 Posted 10/12/2009 at 17:00:06
In answer to your question I don't think many Villa fans were very bothered that Lerner visited Goodison before Villa Park. I think now a few of them might be able to offer a good object lesson for some on here that a billionaire owner isn't necessarily the answer to all problems.
City don't own their stadium, but, neither do they need a new one and it is starkly obvious that they are in no hurry to buy it for them! They have had two recent buyouts because the first one, with the Thai crook, fell apart and nearly took the club right out of the game. A salutory lesson for those who want Bill to just sell cheaply to the first prospect that comes along.
Pompey have plans approved, and a friendly local authority on board, for a 40k seater ground that would uplift their matchday revenues by more than 100%. We couldn’t even approach that kind of return on investment if we could get our hands on a 60k seater ground and get close to filling it.
It would take PT Barnum to sell us as a financial prospect and that is the bottom line. If someone with an emotive link is willing to put into the club, like Yeung or Short, then we can sell. Without that though understand that this is a tough sell.
67 Posted 10/12/2009 at 18:32:38
When’s the last time you bought anything in the ground other than a programme? Do you have many mates that do buy much?
Do you think charging £4 a pint as they do in London can make the leap to Liverpool?
Do you think the lads in the City will be queing up to buy corporate boxes?
How many replica shirts do you have to sell to build a stand?
If you think that these are hard questions try running any multi-million pound business never mind the lunacy that is a football club. Still, thinking you can all do it better must help some of you sleep more easily... although looking at the time of some of the posts it doesn’t even do that.
68 Posted 10/12/2009 at 20:51:39
For whatever reason — and it doesn’t really matter what the reason is — we missed the boat. We’re not a billionaires plaything. We’re a 20th century football club competing in the 21st century. That’s the reality.
You can point the finger at Kenwright if you like. As a chairman, I personally consider him to be a complete muggins. But it’s not Kenwright's fault that the whole axis of the way the game is financed has tilted. Presumably if the price was right, Bill would hit the legs tomorrow. So it’s fairly likely that it’s not his fault that no buyer has emerged either.
In fact you could even argue — and I’m not subscribing to this viewpoint, just playing devil's advocate — that the successful protests against Agent Johnson have contributed to the seeming lack of interest in taking over the club. Our location, status, debts and the state of the ground have obviously contributed too, but a fan base that barely tolerates "lifelong blue" Bill won’t convince any rich Arabs to make an offer anytime soon.
Football means so much to so many, yet the game's elite level is controlled so casually and by so few that it’s perverse. As an old-style club in a brave new world, we’ve not performed too badly. This season has been bad, bur we’re the envy of most of the clubs that share our position.
Being a bllionaire's plaything; jumping into football's equivalent of the arms race would obviously create other issues for fans to worry about. How comfortable would you be if the club had been bought by the Sultan of Brunei say, and was now loaded with two hundred million pounds or so of debt?
You might have a problem with that; you might not. But that's the reality of that scenario.
69 Posted 11/12/2009 at 21:08:57
"The problem is that we are now a business whose business model fundamentally does not work. On the cost side we are having to pay close to top dollar to attract and retain players, but on the revenue side we simply do not have close to the match or non-match revenues of our major competitors. Over all this looms the requirement to find a very substantial sum indeed to replace or massively upgrade our facilities.
It simply does not add up, which is why no-one has bought us. "
That particular connundrum is not confined to only Everton at all. Practically every club has been in a similar situation or worse over the past 10-15yrs. If BK and other major shareholders were prepared to relinquish ownership of their shares at the current share price, control of the club could be attained quite cheaply in Football club terms. Which was precisely the case when he himself gained control from Johnson for a relative pittance.
I note again that you are quick to try to discredit KEIOC, while completely ignoring yet another stadium relocation debacle which surely dwarfs any perceived misgivings you may have for KEIOC’s performance throughout the whole process. How many more of these very lumpy mistakes will you sweep under the carpet of blind faith before you start questioning the real issues as opposed to a group who accurately predicted the folly? It is you who backed the non-runner, don’t blame KEIOC for telling you so for over 2 years.
DK was never a stadium-led project and was underpinned by pure fabrication..... it was plain to see, and that’s why you won’t see the club chasing the appeal option. So, you carry on defending your YES vote, even after the club jumped at the first opportunity to announce the "book on Kirkby is closed".... with no small sigh of relief! A few days later they invited KEIOC in to discuss various ideas.... I wonder why?
70 Posted 11/12/2009 at 22:14:11
No potential customers + no future customers = death of Everton and their support.
People are talking about Manchester City; they are a growing club... we’re a declining club with a lack of support in the local community. Go round town on a Saturday, you’ll find tonnes of Liverpool tops.
There's many reasons young fans don’t want to go. If you're not a season ticket holder, you have to go to Walton if you want to make sure the ticket will activate. I’ve seen disasters with tickets that have been bought by phone. You go to the box office and have to get a new one.
The leadership at the top of our club are clueless. Who's going to go to a meagastore when you can get an Everton kit from most shops and never have to leave the house? Someone told me we don’t even own the car park outside the Park End.
The media think we’re gutted about Destination Kirkby: total lie. Liverpool quite rightly don’t want to invest in a 60 000-seater stadium when we couldn't even sell half the tickets for a home game. The only way we’d get people in is by putting prices down to about a tenner.
As I’ve said, Liverpool whatever we say are a far bigger club than us and do have more fans than us in Liverpool and Merseyside.
71 Posted 12/12/2009 at 00:39:39
You seem obsessed with trying to discredit KEIOC and now me; it’s a pity you don’t do it on the thread where you attempted to argue the point that a funding element, promoted by KEIOC, wouldn’t work. I have no need to point out to people on here that’s the opinion of a guy who first of all supported DK and still feels the need to stipulate it was a good idea when anyone can see the plan was written on the back of a fag packet.
The Board supported a project that was undeliverable and unsuitable on all levels.
No matter what people’s views, are I feel most hearts are in the right place; everyone wants what is best for Everton, nobody wants what’s simply classed as affordable — a few coats dropped on Stanley Park would be affordable, but it isn’t suitable.
How do you all feel about a new stadium on the land west of Green Lane?
72 Posted 12/12/2009 at 09:25:21
73 Posted 12/12/2009 at 19:03:06
Is that Green Lane, Stoneycroft? If so, my initial thoughts are.......it benefits from having 2 major radial dual carriageways, and the inner ring road all within walking distance, It is a similar distance from the city centre as GP, but more central in terms of the whole conurbation, with the M62 Quite close for the out of towners and away fans.
Downside is no Northern Line connection and only the Wavertree Tech Park Station and that’s 1km away and has far less coverage than Kirkdale/Sandhills, and may therefore affect our Wirral based support. Perhaps far less walk-up potential so far from our North-end roots, and the much more densely populated Walton/Bootle districts but not sure. Has this site been mentioned again?
74 Posted 12/12/2009 at 19:26:31
75 Posted 12/12/2009 at 20:17:23
They could make a start by dispensing with the services of the experts that advised DK was a deliverable project and hiring some that have some vision and savvy about the city and the football industry in this city.
76 Posted 13/12/2009 at 20:24:11
Get a grip man.
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