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What we call a caterpillar.....

By Peter Stone :  25/04/2010 :  Comments (142) :
....God calls a butterfly!

For anybody confused about reality and fantasy, please follow this link: I'm told it's a lot more fun than FM and might clearly might offer certain contributors an alternative dimension to "express" themselves.

I'm sending in this post because I love following the new Live Forum on ToffeeWeb. It's the perfect accompaniment to watching the game "live" (I live abroad and it's usually via a ToffeeWeb recommended stream) and it really feels like I'm celebrating/commiserating with fellow blues. The passion is undeniable; however, I sometimes find some comments descend into what I perceive as abject negativity — so thought I would pen this post.

A few years ago, David Moyes explained a strategic development plan, that he only had one possible option to develop a decent football team (over several years) because of the tight financial restrictions. Most years he's added a "marquee" signing and sourced quality signings at ridiculous prices... Cahill, Pianaar, Jags, Arteta, Saha et el.

Over time, this has seen us morph from a team of developing "grinders", tough-to-beat, 1-0 exponents, to this season. A season of gestation, where the team we are currently watching — recently (and ever-frequently) are compared to Arsenal and even Barcelona! A team capable of playing exquisite one-touch, pass and move (joined-up) football and (dare I say it?) touching the ideals of the School of Science itself!

So, whilst I share the angst and frustration of watching every game we play right now, I find myself salivating at the prospect of having an injury-free season where we can start to play anything like a fit first choice eleven. If anybody thinks this is anything less than the consequence of an unbelievable amount of hard work and fastidious planning on behalf of DM, then I suggest some corporal mortification should be administered!

Several times this season, I've found myself relaxing into watching how this team play. Whilst realising we're not the finished article, wanting a speedy winger, a threatening right flank, another striker, etc, I love the way the whole team ethos is now about playing cultured football. I think DM has always wanted his teams to play this way, it's just taken a long journey to get the type of players that we have now — that allows this to happen.

This isn't FM, it's not fantasy football, it's real life. Think about any situation you've been in where you have to change a difficult situation into a positive process. In most of our experiences I often find myself wondering if the contributors who spout such obtuse rhetoric have ever been in a similar position themselves... I guess the answer is self-evident?

My instincts tell me that everything DM said he would do is happening. He appears to be one of those few people that actually walks the walk as opposed to just talking the talk. I think we're incredibly lucky to have a man who is not just talented and dedicated, but is principled and dignified — a rare species indeed.

So here's to grabbing another 6 points, not picking up any more injuries and putting this season to bed as a "what-might-have-been". Let's just get a decent pre-season in and start the next campaign with most of our players in rude health!

Happy times ahead fellow blues — NSNO... Oh and one more thing: Happy Birthday, Davie Moyes — and thank you.

Reader Comments

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Chris Wilson
1   Posted 26/04/2010 at 00:02:49

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Yeah, I have to agree with you Peter. It does get frustrating when you see some of the comments not just on the live posts, but even the columns such as this one. It got so bad that I bipassed Toffeeweb for a couple of months because some of the fans are (in my opinion) a tad unreasonable.

I think Moyes gets harshly treated at times — not that he's above criticism, but there are some who have obviously never liked him and want him gone. These are same people who think we should have Joe Royle back because he won our last trophy... 15 years ago... and of course the game hasn't changed at all right?

But I did get pissed off when we finally get the best of Chelsea and Man U and all some of those fans (who would be unhappy winning the Lottery) can say is "Well, it took him long enough." I understand you can't please everybody, but good God.

Chris Dawson
2   Posted 26/04/2010 at 00:19:38

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Hear, hear!!! Definitely room for optimism, but also for improvement over the summer. Can't wait... COYB
Andy Crooks
3   Posted 26/04/2010 at 00:17:40

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Peter, where do I begin? Well, let's start. Under David Moyes we have won... zero.

Under David Moyes we have played some of the worst, negative football I have ever seen at Goodison Park.

The last two summers have been examples of utter ineptitude by Moyes and his partner Bill Kenwright.

Last season, which we are putting down to "what might have been", is because of the ineptitude of Moyes and Kenwright. Do you really think this summer will be any different?

We are deservedly in eighth place, we look unable to strengthen the squad.

Why do you think there are happy times ahead? A regime change is needed.

Tony J Williams
4   Posted 26/04/2010 at 00:30:40

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Andy, how is Moyes inept? Should he have foreseen the unbelievable injury list before it happened and bought replacement players with this mythical pot of cash we don't have? Perhaps losing only 2 games for the second half of the season is now being inept. Strange one that, even all of the teams around us have lost more than we have in the second half of the season.
David Booth
5   Posted 26/04/2010 at 00:50:58

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Please Andy Crooks: the only thing inept is your accusation. Are you really an Evertonian?

Who would you like to see replace Kenwright and Moyes in this 'regime change' of yours?

Oh, and while you're at it, best tell us which players you regard as inept too. Presumably there must be a lot of them to brandish the term so sweepingly against a team that's only lost twice in the last 23 games?

We're all frustrated after a season that has 'what might have been' written all over it - but surely you can see the reasons why AND the reasons WHY things are clearly changing.

Brighter times are clearly ahead...
Ian Tunstead
6   Posted 26/04/2010 at 01:23:12

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Couldn't have put it better myself Peter. Great post! Finaly some realism and positivity on here. I also hope Moyes has a happy birthday; he deserves it.

There will always be delusional people like Andy in the world who are never pleased and have no real concept of reality. What Moyes has done for Everton is miraculous.

He has turned this sinking ship of a club around and improved the team beyond recognition. We are now a respected team improving year after year. It is only a matter of time before Moyes wins a trophy, and I get the feeling once he gets the first, the rest will start to fall into place quite easily.
Paul McGinty
7   Posted 26/04/2010 at 02:07:41

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I guess Andy's not taking advantage of the early-bird season ticket discount then...
Gary Sedgwick
8   Posted 26/04/2010 at 02:36:31

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Damn good link!
Brendan O'Doherty
9   Posted 26/04/2010 at 03:54:13

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Agree with your post Peter. One particular contributor to today's Live Forum slaughtered Rodwell, Pienaar, Anichebe, Gosling(!), Yakubu,... too many Everton players to remember. I mean, what is the point of supporting your team if you can't get behind your own players? Abject support from some people.

David Moyes inept? Fucking shameful comment coming from someone who clearly doesn't know the first thing about football.
Jamie Sweet
10   Posted 26/04/2010 at 04:52:42

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I truely believe that without David Moyes, Everton would not be a Premier League club any more.

I simply can't understand those who do not acknowledge what he has done for us given the squad (and budget) he had when he took over.

He isn't perfect and yes he has made mistakes along the way... but show me a manager who hasn't. There isn't one.

The squad he has assembled, slowly but surely, which as Peter quite rightly points out, is the only way it could have been done — is one that every Evertonian can now be very proud of — and we're playing some of the best football in the league right now. Do we have David Moyes to thank for this? Too fucking right we do!
Dave Wilson
11   Posted 26/04/2010 at 07:31:54

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Strange reaction to comments made by Andy Crooks. Particularly when half of what he says is irrefutable fact.

We haven't won anything under Moyes and some of the football we have played under his management has indeed been really ugly. Who can argue with that? ... And both Kenwright and Moyes have been inept in the past... ALL of that is true!

That said, I still side with Peter in this debate. The David Moyes we see now is a far better manager than he was 5 -6 years ago. He has grown and matured as a manager, his decisions are far more assured, he isn't nearly as negative as he once was and we are playing some of the best football we have seen in years.

This is a talented squad, Moyes must be given credit for having assembled it. He must also be given the opportunity to see how far he can go with it.

Yes, we are likely to finish 8th this season (another fact) but I fully expect us to improve on that by AT LEAST 4 places next season.
Richard Parker
12   Posted 26/04/2010 at 08:54:08

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Hopefully we'll find out how good this side and this manager really are next season. I just hope that the books are in good enough shape to hold on to everyone.

If we can find enough change down the back of the sofa to buy a pacy right winger in the Donovan mould and all the rest are fit, then I'll be highly optimistic pre-season.

I think the most important thing is that with a fully fit squad, Moyes is going to have serious options on the bench to change a game.

Moyes has done well. He could have done better and hopefully next season will be his chance. It's not gonna be easy, no doubt Spurs, Man City and the Shite will throw buckets of cash at their squad, but our record in 2010 speaks for itself.
Alan Kirwin
13   Posted 26/04/2010 at 09:34:18

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Dave Wilson - liking your posts dude.
Colin Potter
14   Posted 26/04/2010 at 09:23:28

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I agree, the football Everton are playing is getting much better, after 8 years, and maybe, just maybe when we win something, I will start to believe in Moyes. Until then I'll take every match as it comes.
Ciarán McGlone
15   Posted 26/04/2010 at 11:10:27

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I think we all are midly optimistic, at the very least... but to suggests that Moyes is some sort of god, and that those who have criticised him are to be villified, is ridiculous.

He has his problems, and my god — does he not repeat them ad-infinitum! I could be argued that our best spells under Moyes have come about by him being forced into playing a formation or player (or dropping a player) because of an injury or some other matter.

As for integrity, I'm still awaiting an explantion of the Ferguson-Howard-Moyes agreement...

I'm happy enough to accept it's generally an upward trend... but sometimes the effusive blinkers really need to be left at home.

Tony J Williams
16   Posted 26/04/2010 at 11:37:21

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No Ciaran, people who call him inept are vilified by some or the usual "shithouse/coward" reference are the phrases picked up on.

Criticism is criticism but calling a moderately successful Premier League manager 'inept' is a tad daft, don't you think?
Dave Wilson
17   Posted 26/04/2010 at 11:57:40

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All three of us in accord?

Ha Ha — I knew if I lived long enough...
Ciarán McGlone
18   Posted 26/04/2010 at 12:07:26

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If you're referrring to Andy's post, then at least do him the courtesy of reading what he's written.

He refers to the last two summers as being highly inept... Are you suggesting this is incorrect?
Ciarán McGlone
19   Posted 26/04/2010 at 12:10:26

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Miracles happen, Dave...
Mike Allison
20   Posted 26/04/2010 at 12:58:34

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Yet more failure to understand the meaning of the word 'fact'. Look it up guys.

The only irrefutable fact on this thread is that we have won no trophies under Moyes. The rest is subjective opinion, no matter how strongly you believe it.
Tony J Williams
21   Posted 26/04/2010 at 12:56:19

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Ciaran, I repeat my question then, why is he inept? He wanted players, didn't have the money to get them. He didn't want to sell Lescott but he was forced into it by the "player power", ended up selling him and buying players to replace him. How is that inept?
Ciarán McGlone
22   Posted 26/04/2010 at 13:31:15

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I'll answer your question, just as soon as you answer mine, Tony.

By the way, you're not repeating your question, you're asking a whole new one.
Martin Mason
23   Posted 26/04/2010 at 14:03:56

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I've criticised Moyes but genuinely believe that the summer messing wasn't primarily his fault. He's had many reasons to walk but he's at all times acted with dignity. He's steadily learned and built an exceptional but shallow squad on a budget. He's made his best moves when being forced into them and he labours with players who are playing badly that's true and he has been terminally negative but in the end the penny seems to have dropped. Getting it right needs lots of luck.

That he hasn't won anything is the ultimate red herring. I believe that he has done brilliantly for the club and not only kept us afloat but saved us from what looked like inevitable relegation and eventually into a very stylish team. Not the finished article but a credit to the manager nonetheless.
Ciarán McGlone
24   Posted 26/04/2010 at 14:24:21

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A far more balanced assessment. You're spot on with the general position.

But on a side note, I'd say Moyes has to take some of the brickbats for last summer... including the rather pointless trip to America, his contract huff... Home office hearings for players who'd never heard of us... and his general inability to get business done and dusted early.

Not to mention the Lescott affair, which I think he handled particularly badly — by taking it as some sort of personal insult...
David Booth
25   Posted 26/04/2010 at 14:48:33

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Time some of Moyes's critics stopped using the fact he's 'won nothing' in an effort to assert their argument...

Wenger's won nothing for five years, Ferguson could end up winning nothing meaningful this season, as could at least 17 out of 20 Premier League managers.

By definition does that make them inept? Is Redknapp inept, or O'Neill, or the likes of McLeish and even Coyle?

And if the fat Spanish waiter goes on to guide his band of rejects to win the Europa Cup, does that mean he's not???

Sure, we'd all like to have done better. We all know we're capable of better. And for the last 23 games, we've shown we ARE better.

Interesting that those of us who tend to see the more positive aspects of being an Evertonian can usually still appreciate the constant need for improvement — while those of a more negative disposition seem unable to focus on anything other than what irks them.

Yes, the Summer was far from good.

Yes, the Lescott saga was clearly not the best preparation for the new season (but boy did we get a great deal).

And yes, the first third of the season was dreadful. But somehow, the injuries we had — which were quite unprecedented — are now simply brushed aside as just an excuse.

But look at what's been achieved since, with a full squad to choose from.

If we start next season with such a combination of misfortune filed away under 'experience: not to be repeated' and have the likes of Arteta, Baines, Cahill, Jagielka, Fellaini, Heitinga, Pienaar and Saha fit and raring to go — and still we stumble and stutter — then you can justifiably have a go at Moyes.

But bearing in mind where we started and how we've finished, I can't see where all this dissatisfaction is coming from.
Tony J Williams
26   Posted 26/04/2010 at 15:04:31

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How have I not answered your question, Ciaran? I have put the points across as to why I believe he wasn't inept, ergo an answer to your question.

How is "How is Moyes inept?" a different question to "Why is he inept?" — unless you want to be pedantic and say it has different wording. It is the same question in asking for reasons why Andy thought Moyes was inept.
Ciarán McGlone
27   Posted 26/04/2010 at 15:31:37

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'How is he inept?' was your second question. Your first question was whether it was daft for Andy to call him inept. Two different questions, requiring two different answers.

Is it daft to suggest Moyes was inpet last summer? NO.

Why was he inept? I cannot believe anyone can honesty think that Moyes did not show a degree of ineptitude in his approach to last summer.. .from his contract, to Lescott, to pre-season, to failing to get players...

I agree that there may be a failure to appreciate the complexities of other factors... but that's what he's paid £4 million a year to do.
Michael Kenrick
28   Posted 26/04/2010 at 15:40:38

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I think Ciarán is on the right track here. We moan enough about players being paid a huge wedge and not performing... that's been my issue with Moyes for a long time now.

And before you ask for the areas in which he has not performed, read Ciarán's posts. He nails it.

Yes, he's done a compentent job building the team, but constant negativity and underplaying the potential of this team, playing horrible negative tactics for far too long, has I believe imbued a persistent lack of self-belief that has even been adopted by his supporters on here who don't think we are capable of staging a decent challenge for the title.

That part is simply astounding to me. Surely the record of the last 27 games or whatever (I believe we have lost 4 in that time, not two) demonstrates what we could achieve if only Moyes and the team could do a little bit better. That's all we're asking for here — not an order of magnitude improvement, just enough to convert draws into wins. It really is not asking a lot.

To have wise-arses come on and chime in that "you can't expect to win EVERY game" and to dismiss concerns about yet more dropped points or hair's breadth victories when we should by rights be blowing teams out of the water... well it's frustrating that you don't seem to get it.
Tony J Williams
29   Posted 26/04/2010 at 16:12:59

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What rights are these Michael? We are a half decent side that has once again become difficult to beat, even though of late we have the propensity of throwing away a lead.

Our actual link up play is getting better but I don't see us as a team that has the right to beat other teams, I reserve that view for the Man United's and Barcelona's of the footballing world and even then it's a bit condescending of other teams.
Tony J Williams
30   Posted 26/04/2010 at 16:21:50

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So Ciaran, a manager cannot negotiate his contract then? It's seemingly ok for Pienaar et al to do it.

I agree with his handling of Lescott, if Man City had put forward a decent offer at the start of the transfer window, it would have been done quicker or are you suggesting that the way it was approached by City was fine but it was Moyes's fault?

What because he didn't play any teams you want to see him play? Or should he have perhaps pushed his injured players back sooner?

Failing to get players? Again how is that his fault? He had no money and the second he did he went out and bought three.

Ian Tunstead
31   Posted 26/04/2010 at 16:02:03

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Michael, you contradict yourself by saying "Yes, he's done a compentent job building the team" but then you go on to admit the team he has built is "capable of staging a decent challenge for the title." Surely your first statement is a massive understatment? How can you not give credit for the team Moyes has built but instead criticise Moyes for not challenging for the title?

As for "constant negativity and underplaying the potential of this team, playing horrible negative tactics for far too long," Moyes had to deal with the cards he was dealt, he inherited a poor side with little creativity or quality. It wasn't possible to try to outplay the majority of teams during early season due to the fact that the players we had at the time struggled to string 3 passes together unless it was backwards or sideways.

Moyes had to win by what ever means possible even if that meant winning ugly. He played to the stregnths of his players and got the results to punch above our weight on a number of occasions. Now he has brought in the type of players with ability to play the style of football we all want to see. Moyes has always wanted his teams to play this way, as well as get results, as do all managers, but sometimes it just isn't possible.

You say that if the team "could do a little better...just enough to convert draws into wins. It really is not asking a lot." Well it is a lot to ask for when your most instrumental players are injured or missing. Those draws against West Ham, Wolves and Villa probably would have been wins with a fit Fellaini or Arteta in the side.
Ciarán McGlone
32   Posted 26/04/2010 at 16:53:23

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He arranged a Home Office hearing for a player who knew nothing about it. And it wasn't a simple matter of 'negotiating his contract' – his demeanour was quite obviously sour in every single respect during the summer... If you think this is a professional way to manage a Premier League team then I guess that's where our differences lie.

As for Lescott... Moyes spent 3 months throwing his toys out of the pram and consistently stating that he was going nowhere, when we all knew he would eventually go... You could argue it was a negotiating tactic – but I find that very hard to believe.

The pre-season was Mickey Mouse... It's not a matter of 'who I wanted them to play' – it's a matter of making the appropriate steps to get ready for the coming season. The American tour looked like a second summer holiday for the squad; I'm surprised we didn't just go to Disney World. Cliff Richard in a red bus would not have looked out of place on last year's American tour.

David Thomas
33   Posted 26/04/2010 at 16:38:06

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Great article, Peter.

I am personally very grateful to David Moyes for the great job he has done at Everton. In my opinion, he has been the best thing to happen to Everton for many years. I think it would be an absolute disaster for Everton if we were to lose him
Paul Oakes
34   Posted 26/04/2010 at 17:10:36

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While you apologists are happy for mediocrity, I am not. The plain and simple truth is, under the Moyes regime we have won nada.

Money aside, by now we should have won some silverware. The capitulation in the FA Cup Final was brought about by negative tactics, end of.

These same excuses will be used for the next 10 years by the apologists. We have no money. And the reason for it is simple. We allow ballbags like Kenwright to run this shambles of a club. The sooner fans wise up and kick this clown out, the better. We will never have any kind of finance or ever be sold under this man and his cronies.
Matthew Lovekin
35   Posted 26/04/2010 at 16:55:52

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I've tried posting on here before saying exactly the same as you... that Moyes has done a good job at Everton and deserves all the credit for turning the club from a consistent relegation fighting team into a regular European challenging/qualifying team. However, this is now Moyes team and playing the way he wants. Next season is the deciding season in his tenure, make or break.

Moyes has assembled a squad fully capable of finishing in the top 4 and collecting some silverware. All this is down to Moyes and Moyes alone and he deserves the credit for potentially delivering this. Next season he needs to deliver this.

There are no more excuses, if it doesn't happen then players will have hit their peak and Moyes will need to start assembling another squad, such as Ferguson has done at Man Utd. Deliver Champions League football and the new generation of players will want to come to the club as well as the finances.

Next season will decide whether Moyes has been a success or failure at Goodison.

Andy Crooks

What do you want Everton to do this summer? Recruit Jose Mourinho as coach and sign Messi, Ronaldo and Torres? Have some realism please.
Tony J Williams
36   Posted 26/04/2010 at 17:13:52

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Peter, who has said they are happy with mediocrity? Posters are just attempting to suggest that it's not as bad as some other posters are seemingly suggesting it is. However, you show what kind of poster you are with the oft used and derogatory "apologists" tag.

Quite comical that, Money aside quip.....erm, why should we discount the money aspect of it? It is no coincidence that a team who has had millions upon millions thrown at it will probably win the league and yet again a Top 3 side will win the FA Cup, the Carling Cup has already gone to ManU.

To win things you need the best players or do you think Portsmouth will beat Chelsea, the same Chelsea who beat us last year in the final, and will more than likely win the League this year?

It's not about apologising for Moyes, it putting forward a view that we are not as good as the people who want to have a go at Moyes/players think we are... but that's the rub, we constantly hear how poor some of our players are and yet we should apparently be beating all that come before us... the necessity behind winning something.
Dave Wilson
37   Posted 26/04/2010 at 17:10:39

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Moyse admitted that he thought long and hard about whether his future lay at GP — that's why he stalled on signing his contract, history is now being rewritten and he was in "negotiations"...

But for some very sound advice from Sir Bobby Robson — not to mention the fact that nobody else offered him a job — he may not still be here.

Moyes also clearly stated recently that, up until the Arsenal game, he was determined Lescott was staying. No way was it a negotiating tactic; he only sold when he realised the effect it was having on his team — something the man on the street could have told him a month before.

DM has come on a bundle this season, but let's not deny all the mistakes he`s made in the past.

Alan Kirwin
38   Posted 26/04/2010 at 18:46:55

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Will probably have to lie down after this. This McGlone chap spouting so much good sense :), Mr Wilson likewise, even Mr Kenrick on the right side of reason for the main part. This calls for something stiff; but first, a drink.

It is an unarguable truth that DM, whilst currently riding a wave of righteousness (fair dinkum) has to shoulder significant blame for what transpired in the last 2 close seasons and our shocking starts to both seasons.

2 years ago it was his contract. His public demeanour was shocking. Kenwright blundered enormously by blowing too much smoke u DM's arse. The resule was a 3 month sulk that fucked up the start to our season.

This season, sure, we had an absolutely dreadful injury situation. But if the manager's openly depressed and all but given up then hat the fuck is the team and coaching staff to do? DM made some ridiculous outbursts and IMHO failed his brief.

And the utterly useless pre-seasons we have endured must partly be down to Moyes. He must surely approve these ridiculous trips to play San Jose Shipbuilders in front of 3,000 and then Rochdale & Blackpool. Utterly fucking pointless. I want to see Barcelona at Goodison, and possibly games against Rangers, Bayern and Bruges (I just like Bruges).

I would have sacked DM 2 years ago and I would most definitely have had a serious word in his ear earlier this season.


If I blame him for the crap then I must reward him for the cream. Yes, we have (so fucking irritatingly) blown the CL opportunity with drawing too many games we should have won. BUT the quality of our play has developed technically and aesthetically and is becoming truly glorious at times. Now THAT is something to celebrate.

The teams that we have battered this season include City, Arsenal, ManU, Chelsea, Villa, Spurs (2nd half away). I see just two areas where we need attention, and one is not right back. We need a mobile, marauding goal scorer (Rooney or Eto'o, obviously) and some serious work on the defense (we are shipping more goals now than EVER under Moyes).

If there's no money (and I don't see how there can be any) then we keep calm and carry on. There really is no point in bemoaning Kenwright for the 27,498th time on the same thing.

I really do have a stirring about next season. Certainly enough to stick something on at 250-1.
David Booth
39   Posted 26/04/2010 at 19:16:12

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Here we go, here we go, here we go... if it's not Kenwright, it's Moyes... if it's not Moyes, it's Hibbert... if it's not Hibbert, it's Neville... if it's not Neville, it's Osman... if it's not Osman, it's Cahill...

Apparently they're all aimless, clueless hapless, useless, worthless and now, inept.

Sadly for all those who only ever see what's 'wrong' however, they're all still here - and hopefully David Moyes will be so for many years to come.

Like insurance, which is often unappreciated until you break or lose something, we will only appreciate how lucky we are to have him as our manager when he's gone (and perish the thought he pays attention to some of his detractors on here).

One simple question for all those who say they want him gone, or should have 'been sacked two years ago' (Alan Kirwin: pray tell where did that come from?): who could have done a better job?

And never mind all the excuses that the lynch mob repeatedly trot out when asked this. For once, one or all of you, give us a better, feasible, affordable, more successful alternative.

Or is the reason for your avoidance the fact that there isn't one?

Andy Crooks
40   Posted 26/04/2010 at 19:44:11

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I didn't know where to begin with Peters original post and, frankly, I'm astonished at what has been posted. My God is David Moyes really beyond criticism?
Think back to last years cup final, for me that was the last straw. We settled for a narrow defeat and it hurt, really,really hurt. Who can deny that we have ended the last two seasons full of hope and have been gutted by the summers that followed . Inept is the word I used and I repeat it,
David Moyes and Bill Kenwright come as a pair. Neither will be here without the other. In my view David Moyes, who I actually respected, dithered too long over his contract. He settled for big money when he had the chance to go public and put Bill Kenwright on the spot. I repeat, that he has been responsible for some of the worst football I have ever seen from an Everton team.
Finally, I believe that being an Evertonian does not mean offering blind support. I want what is best for Everon and those who disagree with me are perfectly entitled to their views.
David Booth
41   Posted 26/04/2010 at 20:08:41

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So who would you put in his place Andy?
Brendan O'Doherty
42   Posted 26/04/2010 at 20:47:56

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Here we go again. Apologists....shambles of a club.....don't accept criticism of DM....accept mediocrity....blah.....Hibbert...

WRONG on all counts. It's just that some (luckily most) supporters get behind their team and manager, (unless the plot has been completely lost), and keep their knives in their pockets.
Brendan O'Doherty
43   Posted 26/04/2010 at 21:20:39

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Tom Neeson - don't worry, there is no Irish Mafia. I can tell you from personal experience that most Irish Toffees are well behind DM and the players. I suspect that those you refer to don't attend too many games, however.

Alan Kirwin
44   Posted 26/04/2010 at 21:15:58

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Football management, successfully, is as rare as rocking horse shit. It's easy to change things or take a punt on someone, but unearthing the guy who really has "it" is nigh on impossible.

Outside of David Moyes, think about who else in the EPL has a manager that was discovered or given an opportunity based on a hunch. The only other one who loosely qualifies in this regard is when David Dein recruited Arsene Wenger.

I think Kenwright has never got the credit he deserves for not only seeing something in Moyes to take a chance in the first place, but also in sticking with him when things were anything but good. Moyes was not the easy, the obvious, or the safe choice.

Look at all the teams above us in the league. Recognise anything about their managers? All very experienced and driven. Mancini is an arguable exception, but he's won Serie A 3 times on the bounce, albeit with a rich backer.

Roy Hodgson also stands out this season. He is a manager to his soul, his teams play good football, are incredibly well organised and he's a gentleman. What he's got out of Zamora is genius.

Yes, management is a fucking impossible job for the most part. There's only 3 domestic trophies each year and 2 of them are of arguable kudos these days. When you have a good one you have to hold on to him.

And there's something that always, ALWAYS, follows from a good manager, and it's that he inspires a trail of good wannabe managers in his slipstream. Look at Ferguson, Revie, Paisley. Moyes does tend to bring in "the right stuff". I'd back his judgement on players and increasing their value over just about any other manager working today, including Ferguson & Wenger.

The ducks at Goodison seem to be lining up for next season. I don't seriously foresee much spending elsewhere with the grotesque exception of City. We beat them twice this season, why not next? We will need luck and steely determination to match our increasingly beautiful game. I think the bookmakers are missing a trick and anybody writing off Everton next season is taking a big risk.

Top 4 is inevitable.

Dennis Stevens
45   Posted 26/04/2010 at 22:09:59

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Not yet another "Moyes is infallible - any non-believers must be stoned to death" thread!
Tony J Williams
46   Posted 26/04/2010 at 23:53:57

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Hardly Dennis
David Booth
47   Posted 26/04/2010 at 23:57:38

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I don't remember him mentioning Jehovah...
Andy Crooks
48   Posted 27/04/2010 at 00:02:47

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Yes, Dennis Stevens, it is another such thread.
Michael Kenrick
49   Posted 27/04/2010 at 01:01:02

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Tony J (#29): "by rights" was more of an expression than some inalienable requirement... but the sense is there that we should by now have reached the stage with this squad (if they are as good as people think) and this manager (if he''s as good as you lot claim) that we are not throwing silly points away. Yet we continue to do so.

While we are playing better football, and that seems sufficient for some, it's not winning us any trophies... indeed the apologists seen to be saying that it just can't be done — despite the evidence that we can beat the top teams... and NOT once with a full squad available:

Everton 3 - 1 Man Utd: without Cahill, Fellaini, Hibbert
Everton 2 - 1 Chelsea: without Pienaar, Jagielka, Fellaini, Hibbert, Yobo
Man City 0 - 2 Everton: without Fellaini, Senderos, Coleman
Everton 2 - 0 Man City: without Anichebe, Arteta, Gosling, Hibbert, Jagielka, Osman, Rodwell, Yakubu, Yobo

In fact, every single game we play, somebody is missing... to coin an overused phrase, THAT'S Football.
Jamie Sweet
50   Posted 27/04/2010 at 01:57:31

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I think that those people who use the fact that Moyes has yet to win a trophy as the stick to continually beat him with are seriously misguided and fail to see the bigger picture.

When he took over at Goodison, we had a squad which was far more likely to lead us to relegation than a trophy… seriously, we were shite!

Some people seem to think that if he really was a great manager, he should have turned us into the new Barcelona overnight. That’s like expecting Susan Boyle to wake up as Beyonce… it’s just not possible!

The fact is that since DM has been our manager, only Portsmouth have broken the “Sky 4” domination of major domestic trophy’s (by which I mean League and FA Cup). This shows what a nigh on impossible task it actually is.

Some of you need to wake up and smell the coffee that DM is brewing… It’s starting to smell rather good, and he deserves a hell of a lot of credit for that.
Jamie Sweet
51   Posted 27/04/2010 at 01:58:23

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Stupid analogy I know, but when he took over, the conversation might have gone….

DM – “This coffee smells like shit Bill”
BK – “That’s because it is shit David”
Brendan O'Doherty
52   Posted 27/04/2010 at 02:42:29

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"While we are playing better football, and that seems sufficient for some, it's not winning us any trophies... indeed the apologists seen to be saying that it just can't be done ".

1) Nope, never said that - see thread on 2010/11.

2) I have nothing to apologise for.

3) David Moyes has nothing to apologise for.

4) If David Moyes is "inept" because he hasn't won any trophies, that makes 14 Premier League managers and the rest of the managers in the Football League inept.

4) Getting behind the team and manager does not equate to "blind support."
Michael Kenrick
53   Posted 27/04/2010 at 01:01:02

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Ian (#31), If there's any contradiction, it's the idea that (a) Moyes has assembled the best squad in living memory; but (b) We still aren't good enough to challenge the top teams.

This is despite having won 4 drawn 3 lost 1 against the probable Top 4 (Man City in 4th). Are you people really serious with this negativity? It astounds me.

My previous post proves that that this "full squad" thing is just a myth perpetrated by the apologists — and I make no apology for using the term in this instance because that is what you are doing — apologising for Moyes's inability to really kick on, like he should have done this season.

Then you come out with more old and tired cliches... this one is now just a classic: "he inherited a poor side with little creativity or quality"... are you serious? Eight fucking years ago... our play is still affected by that? Yet you are the ones lauding the tremendous progress that he has made... why harp back to that?

"Punching above our weight" is another cliche much favoured by the apologists... where are we finishing this season, compared with the last three??? And we are still "punching above our weight"? Give me strength!

Then this gem: "Moyes has always wanted his teams to play this way." He's the coach... we suffered hoofball and shite tactics for years because that's the way Moyes wants them to play, and playing that way becomes a fundamental part of their mentality that inevitably affects their ability for producing the expansive play necessary to really take us to the next level.
Jamie Sweet
54   Posted 27/04/2010 at 04:08:03

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MK "This is despite having won 4 drawn 3 lost 1 against the probable Top 4 (Man City in 4th)."

I'd call this "kicking on" on then - wouldn't you? And you accuse people of contradiciting themselves! Ha!

I'd say we've been "kicking on" during the last 20 or so games... I see progress and exciting times ahead... I thank Moyes for this.

Yes it's taken 8 years, but look at how many managers have royally fucked clubs up during that period, and then look at how many have won trophies. I think we're doing alright... and I don't think this makes me an apologist. Perhaps a glass-half-fullist though.
Michael Kenrick
55   Posted 27/04/2010 at 04:34:13

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Jamie, I don''t call losing points in drawn games we should be winning "kicking on". I don't mind too much in one way because I think like some others that not doing Europa next season is a potential benefit for us, but the downside is that the high tempo, confidence-building self-belief that comes from a good winning streak is not achieved.

Perhaps I'm expecting too much to see that carried through yet another probably painful summer of nonsense. But it is vital that we get a good start to next season and, based on the last two seasons, I'm not convinced Moyes 'gets' it.

Not sure what any other managers have to do with this. We are Everton.
Keith Glazzard
56   Posted 27/04/2010 at 05:26:35

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One little point I'd like to clear up here. 'Punching above their weight' is a term I think I have heard Alan Green use about us — 'Moyes apologists' take note.

From boxing, I believe, it means you are in the wrong fight, in the ring with someone who should beat you simply by being bigger. By implication, it infers that you don't belong there, should be somewhere else. Which is what Green and other kopites dearly wish.

The term applies very well to FA Cup 'upsets' and particularly 'giant killing' victories. But to apply it to a club whose top flight longevity is only topped by a London club who probably paid their way into it (via the chairman of LFC) in the first place, there is no doubt that this is where we belong.

I hope I am an optimist, but realistic enough to look back over my shoulder to the relegation threatened years and the fear of unbearable pain that they brought. Love of football? Forget it. A point at any cost, three points a blessing. The 'Dogs of War' days seem to be as fondly remembered as, it seems, Dunkirk was. A disaster hailed as a victory of some kind (and no, I haven't forgotten the last time we won silverware).

Sure, in a crazy world I'd like us to have the option of buying the players the boss wants (and paying their wages), but I'd rather they wanted to play for us because we are a fine club playing great football. They get the big house in Cheshire as it is.

Moyes is now a figure of authority in football. When he speaks, people listen. The FA withdrew a charge against him with no further comment. The BBC are taking him to the World Cup Finals. And this has all taken time. But it might just mean that potential signings will believe him when he says that they will achieve something in their careers by pulling on the royal blue. Ask Arteta what he thinks... Heitinga too, I suspect.

And Tony Hibbert has now made more European appearances than any other Everton player ever. You couldn't make it up.
Ian Tunstead
57   Posted 27/04/2010 at 08:09:18

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Michael, I can’t make much sense of what you are saying but I will have a go. You maybe right when you say “Moyes has assembled the best squad in living memory; but we still aren't good enough to challenge the top teams.” That is because half of that squad was missing for large parts of the season.

I don’t understand how you can accuse me of “negativity”. I too believe that Moyes has assembled a squad capable of challenging for the title and his first 11 is capable of matching any team in the country on their day. But unfortunately there hasn’t been an occasion when that starting 11 have played together. At times we have had 8 or 9 of our best 11 and some of our better squad players to fill in the gaps and that is when we have got our best results.

As for this “full squad thing” being a “myth”, surely the last 24 games since Arteta, Neville, Vaughan, Anichebe, Jags returned and the introduction of Donovan proves it's not. The examples you use prove my point even more with the one exception.

“Everton 3 - 1 Man Utd: without Cahill, Fellaini, Hibbert.” First of all I wouldn’t say Hibbert was a first team member. Yes, Fellaini would make the first 11 but fortunately the one player able to fill his boots (Arteta) returned. Cahill is priceless from corners and set pieces but in terms of actual footballing ability would probably not be in the starting 11. So although the football would improve slightly with him not in the side the massive threat he posses from corners is lost which is why we didn’t score any set pieces against them.

“Everton 2 - 1 Chelsea: without Pienaar, Jagielka, Fellaini, Hibbert, Yobo.” This is the one freak result which was probably down to the genius of Saha and an out of sorts John Terry, no doubt affected by the thought of his affair about to splashed all over the newspapers.

“Man City 0 - 2 Everton: without Fellaini, Senderos, Coleman.” Again only Fellaini would be a first team player but he was replaced by our best player which compensated.
“Everton 2 - 0 Man City: without Anichebe, Arteta, Gosling, Hibbert, Jagielka, Osman, Rodwell, Yakubu, Yobo .” Man City were also going through a transitional period were new players were still settling in and a new manager as well as having a number of injuries themselves. They had been quite inconsistent up to that stage and still relying on overrated players like Robiniho who were holding the team back.

If using clichés gets the message across then I will use cliches, "he inherited a poor side with little creativity or quality” It maybe classic but isn’t that because it is true? Yes it’s been 8 years but I would say for the first 2 or 3 years it wasn’t really his team. So no, our team isn’t still affected unless the players he has brought in are missing through injury. For the last 3 or 4 seasons I wouldn’t say we were punching above our weight but the first 3 or 4 seasons we had a squad that was just about Prem standard.

As for your last point; If Moyes had us playing on the deck in the first few seasons we would have ended up like west brom last season, playing decent stuff but getting relegated, we had a team full of yard dogs so how can you expect them to outplay anyone of real quality? The tactics Moyes used were the best tactics to use at the time in order to get the results we needed.

Tony J Williams
58   Posted 27/04/2010 at 08:56:15

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Michael, I have never claimed that a) Moyes is that good or b) our team is that good. I have consistently stated that we are an average side that is difficult to beat, that is all, yet Moyes does seem to get the best out of limited players, so he must do something right. It's a problem that all you "plebs" (I am using this term the way you use the derogatory term apologist, it stands for Posters who Like Everton Bashing) have, you consistently remind us how bad so and so is and then in your next sentence criticise them for not being fantastic. If so and so is bad, then surely the expectations should be lower not higher, simple logic that.

Have you noticed with those results you have listed that our most skilfull and influential player was back playing and the three games were we surrended the leads, he was injured... hmmm strange that, I means injuries apparently have no bearing on results with the "plebs".
Alan Kirwin
59   Posted 27/04/2010 at 09:11:53

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Michael K - try as I might, I find your posts almost indecipherable as to their real point. Don't mean that in an unpleasant way, but you seem to combine aspiration with artistry and expectation and intolerance.

You slag Moyes to the heavens, then in the same breath talk about our best squad for decades. You only accept the finest standard of football (Barcelona seems to fit your bill) and wade in if we don't deliver it. You only accept victories and wade in when we draw, nevermind lose.

I may have got this wrong Michael, but it seems to me that you will only ever accept Everton playing like Barcelona and winning. Anything else is unacceptable and indeed worthy of scorn.

Dreams are fine. An occasional sense of perspective tends to avoid constant disappointment.
Ciarán McGlone
60   Posted 27/04/2010 at 09:11:12

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"4) If David Moyes is "inept" because he hasn't won any trophies, that makes 14 Premier League managers and the rest of the managers in the Football League inept"

Did anyone actually say this?

By the way Brendan, I think your little dig at those who don't get to as many matches at yourself is rather pathetic.

Going to matchers doesn't make you anymore knowledgeaable... for instance, there was a season ticket holder on talksport last night gushing about how great Jags was at taking the ball out of defence...compared to Distin (or 'Dustbin' as he somewhat hilariously referred to him) who apparently hoofed it all the time as opposed to Jags who always took the simple option and found a player from defence... I nearly crashed my car.
Dave Wilson
61   Posted 27/04/2010 at 09:32:49

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I just don't get all this outrage from the Moyes boys.

He generally gets any praise he may be due, he is respected throughout the football world, he is richly rewarded for the job he has done, so why this hysteria over a little criticism? Do you guys really think he's above that?

Where are we when a passionate blue can't give his opinion without people shouting him down and accusing him of not being an Evertonian?

Moyes has got us to a cup final and fair play to him, but people like Davey Jones have managed that much on a far smaller budget. So let's not portray it as some sort of miracle.

Moyes is progressing nicely, but to question a guy's loyalty to Everton simply because he recognises his shortcomings is totally out of order.

Go to GP for any game and you will find 30,000 plus moaners; they moan because they care so much, it doesn't make them any less a supporter than the happy clapper.

You can be very, very certain that even Moyesie's biggest critics would like nothing more than for him to prove them wrong.

You should also accept that even the likes if SAF and Wenger cannot please all of the fans, all of the time.

Karl Masters
62   Posted 27/04/2010 at 10:37:28

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Alan Kirwin:

Your mention of BK not getting enough credit for appointing Moyes reminds me that I read recently that it was actually BK's other half (Jenny Seagrove) that, having sat in on the interviews, told Bill that Moyes must not slip through his hands!

I have no idea what she would have made of the other names mentioned at the time (Gary Megson and Dave Jones spring to mind) but I am grateful to her for getting that call right.

Moyes has done an excellent job overall. We should remember that this is his first big job. Of course he has made mistakes (repeated some of them as well as he has learnt his trade), but he is now maturing into the finished article.

If we are getting broad agreement on this from messrs Kenrick, Kirwin, McGlone and Wilson something is definitely happening out there!

Next season... bring it on!!!
Sam Hoare
63   Posted 27/04/2010 at 10:50:27

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To be fair Ciaran, the suggestion is frequently posted that Moyes has in some ways failed because he is yet to deliver a trophy.

I think it is also fair to answer this criticism with the point that by said standards the majority of managers in the UK would be described as failing.

While of course every person on this site would love to see us lift a trophy, to judge Moyes by so black-and-white a criterion is to not give due credit for the work he has done.

I am not suggesting that he is without flaw but no-one can deny that he has brought better players, better football and better league standings to the club in his reign.

Of course, if this progress is to continue, it will hopefully result in silverware but to villify him for the lack of it is like complaining about getting just 5 numbers in the lottery! Yes, we might not have won the big one but from where I stand we've been pretty darned lucky nonetheless.
Ciarán McGlone
64   Posted 27/04/2010 at 11:02:22

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Nowhere in this thread (or anywhere else for that matter) have I seen anyone say that ineptitude is the reason Moyes has not won a trophy... If i'm wrong, I stand to be corrected.

They have of course used it as a measure of his success... but that's a completely different point to stating that his lack of a trophy is a matter of ineptitude.
Sam Hoare
65   Posted 27/04/2010 at 11:23:04

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Ciaran, I got as far a 3 posts before I read this:
'Peter, where do I begin? Well, let's start. Under David Moyes we have won... zero.

Under David Moyes we have played some of the worst, negative football I have ever seen at Goodison Park.

The last two summers have been examples of utter ineptitude by Moyes and his partner Bill Kenwright.

Last season, which are putting down to "what might have been" is because of the ineptitude of Moyes and Kenwright.'
I won't go into semantics but my point is that people use the lack of trophies as a criticism of Moyes. I believe it to be an unfair one.
Ciarán McGlone
66   Posted 27/04/2010 at 11:50:09

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The point that you are making is clearly different from the one that Brendan is making.

Andy's post does not blame ineptitude on not winning anything.
Sam Hoare
67   Posted 27/04/2010 at 12:00:27

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Ermm... read that last line again, Ciaran.

'Last season, which we are putting down to "what might have been" is because of the ineptitude of Moyes and Kenwright.'

Sounds to me very much like Andy is blaming ineptitude for not winning anything.

Anyway, I'm sure Andy can speak for himself.

Hopefully the argument will be rendered academic next season when we romp to the triple!
Ciarán McGlone
68   Posted 27/04/2010 at 12:10:57

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His next sentence, qualifies what he's talking about....

"Do you really think this summer will be any different? "

He's talking about the summer.
Sam Hoare
69   Posted 27/04/2010 at 12:16:39

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Fair point, Ciaran.

Though I would still argue that any post that starts with a reference to no trophies and goes on to talk about Moyes's ineptitude could be reasonably said to be linking the two.

Feel like a historian with all this interpretation of sources!
Ciarán McGlone
70   Posted 27/04/2010 at 12:24:59

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Haha... over to you Dr Starkey.

I think there's a line to be drawn here... I think we can reasonable point to individual circumstances where, during games, Moyes has shown ineptitude...

However, to state that this ineptitude was responsible for him not winning a trophy is probably a step too far in my opinion. The only possible case for this is an analysis of the FA Cup Final — and a possible suggestion that Hibbert was not fit enough to play. However, I wouldn't subscribe to this analysis being conclusive evidence that his ineptitude has cost us a trophy.
David Booth
71   Posted 27/04/2010 at 13:14:47

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Er, cough cough: pardon me repeating myself, but anyone care to name someone who could have done a better job?

Thought not...
Andy Crooks
72   Posted 27/04/2010 at 13:16:59

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I believe it was the ineptitude of David Moyes and Bill Kenwright over the last two summers that prevented us from taking the step up we were capable of. It was not my intention to suggest that the ineptitude of David Moyes was the reason he has not won a trophy.

I mentioned the fact that he hasn't won any because I don't believe he is the great manager that some Evertonians believe him to be.

Ciarán McGlone
73   Posted 27/04/2010 at 13:26:43

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"Er, cough cough: pardon me repeating myself, but anyone care to name someone who could have done a better job?"

Arsene Wenger, Fergie, Mourinho, Guardiola, Hodgeson, Ancelloti et etc etc.

What a dozy question.
Martin Mason
74   Posted 27/04/2010 at 13:37:30

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Yes, you may be right about last summer, I wasn't here and really missed all the to-ings and fro-ings. Whatever, he seems to me to be Mr Everton and maybe we are locked with him in a dance of death or walking on a stairway to heaven.

When I saw the title of this thread, it reminded me of a line from the Kinks' song Autumn Almanac which was a great ditty at Goodison once.

From the dew-soaked hedge creeps a crawly caterpillar,
When the dawn begins to crack.
It’s all part of the Everton attack.
Yak, Yak Yak it's the Everton attack.

Brilliant then and appropriate now.

Sorry about the misunderstanding over the merger btw, no offence intended.
Gary Shaw
75   Posted 27/04/2010 at 12:45:41

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I believe that we have one of the best managers in the Premier League. David Moyes has grown as a manager over the past 4-5 years. As Moyes has grown and developed, so has his team.

Yes, he has made mistakes. From transfers to tactical decisions before and during games. We can all list them. A lot of you alredy have in your previous comments. Show me a manager who hasn't signed a dodgy Danish centre-half or made an infuriating substitution. You can't.

What we have with Moyes is an ambitious manager who would, ideally, like to realise his ambitions at Our Club.

In terms of results this season has seen us take a step back. We cannot deny this. We can attribute this to a number of factors, one of which was the catastrophic injury list we endured pre-christmas. The Lescott saga was undoubtedly a factor too. Moyes will have learned a great deal from City's pursuit of one of his players. If we have the same situation with Steven Pienaar or Jack Rodwell this summer I would like to think that Moyes and Kenwright will use those lessons and not repeat the same mistake of letting it drag on into the new season. However, we would have to rely on the other club not behaving in the way Manchester City obviously did.

Although Lescott was eventually sold, as a club we were not bullied. We didn't just roll over and let him go on the cheap. Moyes fought his corner and recieved, especially after the season Lescott has had, an unbelievable amount of money.

On the playing side, what we can't deny is that since the turn of the year the Old Lady has seen some of the best football played by Everton in decades! Here we can point towards real progress. As well as the big wins against Utd and Chelsea, the 2nd half against Tottenham, the dismantling of City and Hull. The first half performance away at Birmingham and the performances at Arsenal, Chelsea, City and Blackburn have all given us some truly brilliant football. What we haven't had is consistency though.

Yes, 2 defeats in 22 league games is consistent. Within that sequence though we have suffered defeats against Bate, Benfica, Sporting Lisbon away and, infuriatingly so, Birmingham City in the cup. The manner of these defeats (Bate with the kids an exception, although Yakubu was dreadful) was very disappointing and, for me, the low point of the season. Especially coming so soon after the City win.

If David Moyes can eredicate these inconsistencies next season, then we have an excellent chance of challenging for trophies and that top four spot. The fact we are looking upwards rather than down at a dog fight year-in, year-out is testament to the work David Moyes has done.

I do agree that next season is a massive season for us. Already it has an air of 'Now or Never' about it. I do feel confident though and that is a good feeling to have.

David Booth
76   Posted 27/04/2010 at 13:51:11

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Ciaran, it is not a 'dozy' question at all, but thanks for the compliment.

For you, and anyone else who requires further clarification of the obvious, I was clearly wanting any suggestion for a manager who would be available, affordable, feasible and willing to manage Everton. Clearly, that rules out all the above.

And for once, do you think you could answer without any uncalled-for personal invective? It is neither necessary nor endearing.
Ciarán McGlone
77   Posted 27/04/2010 at 14:05:42

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Oh right Mr Booth...You didn't actually mean the question you meant a different one which has a whole list of subsequent caveats..which actually means nothing in the context of this thread - and is a bit of a shortcut past reasoned argument...

Silly me, sensible question.

P.S where did I get personal? I attacked the argument - I referred to your question as being 'dozy'...that's not personal invective...It's a straw man on your part. It is a dozy question.

Michael Kenrick
78   Posted 27/04/2010 at 14:13:20

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Some good comments, Gary Shaw, but in your summary you missed out what I firmly believe was the real reason behind our poor position at the end of this season, and that is the Blue Funk Moyes descended into for the first half of it. Totally unprofessional in my opinion, with an incalculable impact on team spirit and confidence that was of course translated into pathetic football and poor results.

You are right about the need for David Moyes to eradicate these inconsistencies — this is where I'm coming from in expecting this highly paid manager to perform a lot closer to the top of his potential — and that of the players he has available on the day. If that's a high standard, so be it. This is Everton.
Andy Crooks
79   Posted 27/04/2010 at 14:18:47

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David, I think you are being a little sensitive. If you've been following this thread you'll have noticed quite a bit of personal invective, most of which appears to have been removed. It doesn't bother me.
David Booth
80   Posted 27/04/2010 at 14:46:35

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Ciaran: may I refer you to my previous comment (39), which ought to obviate the need for further clarification for anyone who had taken the trouble to read their way through this thread, instead of just taking issue out of context.

And again, same question to you and anyone else (still unanswered): who could have done better than David Moyes?
David Booth
81   Posted 27/04/2010 at 14:51:42

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Andy, I know what you mean, but on a point of principle - and at the risk of being accused of going even more off-topic - it's such a shame that so many of these threads just degenerate into nothing more than name-calling.

There's absolutely no need for it.

I have my opinion. You and everyone else have theirs. And we're all entitled to them.

But can't we express them in a mature, adult way, without any name-calling, insults (veiled or otherwise) and smug superiority?

I enjoy defending my views and seeing other people do the same. However, I really do tire of such playground politics.
Ciarán McGlone
82   Posted 27/04/2010 at 14:55:37

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Whenever a post starts with some irrelevance regarding Hibbert...blah, blah...blah..I tend to drift off..

Post 39 does not make your question any less silly...Answering it requires a twisting of the fabric of space and time - no-one can answer it to any satisfactory standard, as any answer is merely a product of highly speculative supposition..

If I actually answered your question in the following manner - "If we'd appointed Jim McFootball two years ago - we'd have been in the champions league final this year, having won the league last year" - You cannot refute this suggestion. Bottom line: Dozy question!
David Thomas
83   Posted 27/04/2010 at 14:45:55

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Would you not agree that the reason for our final position this season will be mainly due to the fact that we started the season without:-

Our best defender
Our most influential midfielder
Our most expensive ever striker

and in the 4th game of the season we lost our captain and in the 6th game our second most creative midfielder, both for an extended period of time.
Ciarán McGlone
84   Posted 27/04/2010 at 15:21:34

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"and smug superiority?"


Does that involved asking unanswerable questions?

No-one has had a go at you David. Chill out.
Michael Kenrick
85   Posted 27/04/2010 at 15:37:41

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Cairan is right again, David, it's a dozy question, pointless in its banality.

David Moyes is the manger of Everton — no-one else. End of, as the saying goes.

It is perfectly valid for Evertonians with a passionate interest in the success of the team to analyse and, if they so desire, question or support his performance to date. To pose a question that can have no valid answer, and then to keep repeating it, seems a little dozy too, don't you think?

Any answer to your question is pure fantasy, and for some us that is simply a waste of time and effort. Please desist!

ps: as Dave Wilson rightly points out, I should take action over your "are you really an Evertonian" jibe. We don't tolerate such comments, so please withdraw it.

Dave Wilson
86   Posted 27/04/2010 at 15:40:52

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David Booth

"the only thing inept is your accusation, are you really an Evertonian"

That was your first post, I think it may well answer the questions you raise in your last post
Kev Prytherch
87   Posted 27/04/2010 at 17:14:12

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To use another cliche about Moyes... When he's good he's very good, but when he's bad he's awful.

The last three seasons we've started terribly for one reason or another and it's taken something beyond Moyes'scontrol to kick start our season (Clattenburg; that tackle on Ronaldo; the total humiliation against Hull in the 1st half).

When Moyes's teams are struggling, he hasn't got a clue what to do; however, when they're on a run, you'd struggle to find another manager in the world that can keep momentum going for as long as Moyes can.

David Booth
88   Posted 27/04/2010 at 17:29:38

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Michael: I believe in the basic principle that, if one criticises something — or somebody in David Moyes' case — it is unfair and invalid without proposing a better alternative. Simply denigrating his efforts without doing so is most unfair.

I think he's doing a good job, under 'restraints' we are all aware of. Indeed, a better job than anyone else could do under the circumstances.

So I'm constantly curious to know who those who are clearly disatisfied with him and his team, would wish in his place?

If he's not good enough. Who is?
Micky Norman
89   Posted 27/04/2010 at 18:03:15

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Whilst I've never been a real fan of the type of football we have played for most of his time in charge, I am in no doubt at all that, had Moyes not been given the job, we would now be where Sheffield Wednesday are.

Roll on August and a good start. But the whole club needs to realise that the optimism we share at the moment must be turned into a reality... we have suffered too many false dawns.

Brendan O'Doherty
90   Posted 27/04/2010 at 20:25:01

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David Booth

You won't get an answer to your question because there isn't an answer,i.e. no-one.

If the 'regime change' mob get their way we'll end up with Gary Megson, and in the same position as his former club Sheffield Wednesday, as mentioned above.

Now THAT is when you get on a manager's back. Playing utterly shite football (thinking of Bolton earlier this season), and fighting relegation, having lost both the supporters and the dressing room. A million miles away from the position of Everton Football Club in 2010.
Eugene Ruane
91   Posted 27/04/2010 at 21:12:28

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I really think we'll win the league!


If we keep the squad fit we CAN do it.

Moysie knows what he's doing and can lead us to glory.

I honestly think we'll finish above Liverpool - I think they're finished.


(nb: Yes I AM taking the piss! Piennar, Rodwell and anyone else, IF offered double/treble their wages, WILL go. We WILL get injuries next season. We WON'T be winning any titles with a tiny-budget and proven bums running the club. Do yourself a favour - be realistic, learn from the past. Wishful thinking usually leads to disappointment)
Colin Wainwright
92   Posted 27/04/2010 at 21:31:16

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Fuck it!

Sack him and get David Pleat.

He's won loads.
Dave Wilson
93   Posted 27/04/2010 at 21:44:31

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Yes, Eugene, but the wishful thinkers will have hope and joy in their lives all summer and right up to Chrimbo before the inevitable disappointment. Then they can' start again next March talking about the good old day being just around the corner...

The realist / pessimist / arl arse / been around the block / cynical fuckers start off miserable then go downhill.
Tony Cheek
94   Posted 27/04/2010 at 22:00:44

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What we have got is probably the best midfield in the Premier League...... what we haven't got is the best keeper, the best back four, or the best attack. Why is everyone suddenly talking about us winning the league?

I´ll be happy with top four, but we drop too many stupid points to win it... sorry, still a way to go yet.

Jamie Sweet
95   Posted 27/04/2010 at 22:01:43

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Everyone seems to be happy to suggest that if we played Coleman at right back instead of Neville we would have won x number of games... if we had a pacy right winger in the Donovan mould we would be more successful — so why can't you play the same game and answer which manager we should have in charge in order to win us a trophy or two.

It's the same principle — suggesting what improvements we can make in order to move forward as a club.

It isn't a dozy question at all. The reason why nobody has ever answered it (apart from Ciarán's unrealistic and lazy attempt in post 73 - akin to suggesting we'd play better football if we signed Messi) is because there isn't a good answer — not because it isn't a good question.
Eugene Ruane
96   Posted 27/04/2010 at 23:39:05

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Dave Wilson.

You accuse me indirectly of being a "realist / pessimist / arl arse"

Well first of all let me point out that a realist and a pessimist are two TOTALLY different things.

I'm certainly a realist or as much of a realist as I can be.

A Pessimist?


Because I don't, in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, choose to believe things will be fantastic, then having decided this, skip and whistle the whole year like some demented Sally Army band member

(nb: before Thatcher emptied all the mental 'care facilities' they used to put a lot of people in them who were happy...for no apparent reason!).

An Arl arse?

Well, more difficult to define, but depending on your definition, possibly true.

However, better an arl than a soft.
Peter Stone
97   Posted 27/04/2010 at 23:35:43

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I had no idea my post would provoke so many responses.

Strangely enough, I think the polarity of reactions expressed what I was trying to express far better than I could elucidate. You are all my Everton family, I don't know any of you - or you me other than that tenuous connection. Like many, I'm upset and sometimes angry when we lose, ecstatic when we win - and yes after the initial joy subsides can engage my brain and reflect on what might be improved upon.

Thanks to the internet, I can either choose to share this with you all - or (as I suspect many of us do) become a Toffee-voyeur, content to peep through the wardrobe of anonymity. However a (truly) wise old man once told me that in life one needed "A brain of ice and a heart of fire" - so as much as I may be perceived as a gushing "Moyes apologist" (whatever that is) - I also freely admit we are "not the finished article" I think, reflect and analyse every single game we play and then put it in big picture context. My post suggests nothing of winning titles next season, just that (as in all our lives) we have mountains to climb and challenges to undertake - and I think DM should be recognised for somebody who has done exactly that..... for our club.

My take is he's doing more than ok, and we're about to experience an exponential quality football curve. I appreciate we all have different takes on our progress (or perceived lack of it) but I guess it's all a matter of how we see things. However I really don't wish to get involved in mud slinging with my fellow blues. I understand we have differences, but also it might be poignant to reflect upon the attitude we impact on other Toffeeweb members. Maybe it might just be good to "up" the respect factor a couple of notches all round guys? Since when did being smart mean we have to be cynical? Logic takes all forms - we all have it, we all exercise it. Then again perception is everything...........

It reminds me of the old joke (much better told, than read) about the subject …….

A couple of lads were having a pint in their local one Sunday night, when one turned to the other saying “Where’s Tom tonight?” His mate replies “Tom’s on some work course, he’s been doing it all weekend, though he said he might be in later if he isn’t too tired”.

About half an hour later Tom turns up, orders a pint and sits down at a table. The lads saunter over, say hello and enquire about his course. Tom enthuses over his reply, telling his mates about his course…..which was all about logic.

One drinking buddy (let’s call him Dave - no reflection on any Dave posting here) says “Logic? What’s that all about Tom?”

Tom responds with this answer:“Logic is reasoning, conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity Dave. It’s a particular system or codification of the principles of proof and inference.”

Dave and the other friend look completely blank so Tom (realising he’s lost them) gives them an example:

“Dave, last time we were in here, you were telling me all about your new exotic fish you had just purchased and went into great detail about how you look after them. I don’t know too much about you as we only meet up down here, but I’ll try to use what I’ve learnt on the course and make some educated guesses about you……..using logic!”

The two pals nod in agreement and urge him on.

Tom carries on: “So the fact that you keep exotic fish would logically suggest that you have somewhere stable to live…..exotic fish are not the sort of thing you would want to move regularly and often watching beautiful fish is a peaceful repose and generally you need a calming environment that you would feel comfortable in - again, logic would suggest somewhere you have nurtured.”

The two pals nod, impressed so far…….

Tom carries on: “ So if you have a stable home life, then logic would suggest, whilst realising this is all supposition, that you could have a long-term partner or indeed you may well be married. After all it usually takes a steady relationship to balance a single bloke’s mind-set into home building.”

Dave looks amazed and says “That’s brilliant mate - yeah I’ve been married for about 5 years now and we moved into a new house about a year ago and I’ve always wanted to keep some fancy fish - so now have an area where I can sit and watch them, have a bevvy, listen to some music and read the paper. This logic stuff is brilliant, so what else can you work out?”

Tom replies “I could go on all night fella, but tell you what, I’ll fast-forward some outcomes and you can tell me if I’m right or not. I mean, if you’ve been married a few years then well (he looks slightly embarrassed), well you’re probably having regular sex right?”

Dave shuffles nervously, laughs, then says “Well yeah, me and the missus are still performing a two or three times a week!”

Tom continues “So therefore logic would infer that you are reasonably content with your sex life and so that leads me to believe you probably don’t masturbate anymore?!”

Dave (now into the swing of it) laughs and says “Yeah Tom, truth is, it’s been years since I needed to visit Madam Palm and her 5 lovely daughters!”

With that, they all share another pint, talk about other things and eventually go their separate ways.<

On the way back home, Dave (the fish keeper) bumps into another, mutual mate. Impressed by Tom’s logic prowess, he proceeds to tell the new guy how everybody should take a course in logic.
The new bloke, initially confused about how it works, asks for an example so Dave says:

“Look mate, do you keep fish?”

The other bloke, slightly confused says “No”

Dave (momentarily thrown by this reply), thinks for a few seconds before looking his mate in the eye, then emotes the semi-clenched-fist-up-and-down-movement and yells.. “Wanker”!

Here's to next season Toffeewebbers - COYB.
Dennis Stevens
98   Posted 28/04/2010 at 00:01:58

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I'd have to disagree, James. David Booth's question is both dozy & pointless. Moyes isn't going anywhere so the question is entirely rhetorical. The point of the question is to emphasise how highly the questioner views Moyes, not to engage in a genuine debate as to the merits of possible alternatives who either could have been appointed instead or could potentially replace Moyes.

Moyes was known, to some, as a promising young manager at Preston & not known at all by many, at the time of his appointment to succeed Smith... and so we had little basis for expecting that he would prove as good as he has. Following the same logic, any alternative suggested may not look any better, but might prove to be so if appointed — however, we'll never know, so any views would be entirely subjective.

One could make the same point about players, however, whereas one player may improve or weaken a team, he is only one player out of a whole squad of players. On the other hand, managers may make or break clubs and they are the only one you have at the time, so I don't think it's quite the same principle.

Moyes is a good manager and he's done a good job for Everton, but I wouldn't say he's yet proved himself a great manager, though hopefully he will whilst at Everton.

However, if and when he does leave, he will be replaced and Everton will continue and for all we know the next manager may be even more successful. But I suppose that can't be possible because nobody can produce the next manger's name in this thread!

Dennis Stevens
99   Posted 28/04/2010 at 00:41:37

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Nice one, Peter — that made me smile & you make some good points too.
I think the main thing not to lose sight of is the fact that we're all here because we're Evertonians & all just want the best for our club.
These discussuions on TW always remind me of that old saying : "Opinions are like arseholes — everybody's got one & everybody elses stinks!"
Peter Stone
100   Posted 28/04/2010 at 00:56:44

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Hey... Now we're getting close Dennis ;-)
Brendan O'Doherty
101   Posted 28/04/2010 at 01:27:34

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Enjoyed the joke Peter, and agree with your general sentiments. While your post was always going to re-ignite the pro and anti DM debate, the comment about him being inept was just a step too far in many people's minds. It's understandable that some will have reservations about their club's manager (whoever that may be at any given time), but your point about DM deserving credit for what he has achieved to date is the overriding one.
Brendan O'Doherty
102   Posted 28/04/2010 at 01:57:40

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Eugene - I understand your realism, but surely supporting a football club and living in a fantasy world of denial of the bleeding obvious is the last refuge of the optimist?!

250-1 for the title - c'mon you never know!
Peter Stone
103   Posted 28/04/2010 at 02:00:33

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Thanks Brendan, here's to a great summer, pre-season and a successful campaign for EFC next season!
Michael Kenrick
104   Posted 28/04/2010 at 02:15:55

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So... David Booth (#88): if you were responsible for somebody (an employee perhaps) who clearly had potential, but was just not doing enough to really produce the goods, your first option would be to dispense with them and get someone else in? Can you see what a ridiculous waste of investment that is?

We've invested 8 years in David Moyes... the idea that you then depart into some fantasyland quest for a knight on the proverbial golden charger, rather than addressing the problems the incumbent has and getting him to do a better job...

Isn't that stating the bleeding obvious?

Your question is ridiculous and the presumption is ridiculous. I want him to do a better job... How hard is that for you to comprehend?
Peter Stone
105   Posted 28/04/2010 at 02:26:04

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Do you keep fish Michael? :-D
Michael Kenrick
106   Posted 28/04/2010 at 02:25:17

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Moyes the Fish! I know's he does have that bug-eyed stare... but even I think that's a bit much.

No, I don't keep fish... I keep cats. Hungry cats.

They eat fish for breakfast. If the fish is no good, they won't eat it and I fave to find fresh stuff they will eat...

They need a stable home environment and don't like it when I go out of town...

I've given you a few good clues there... If you think any of this has a bearing on my sex life, please feel free to elaborate further.

Michael Kenrick
107   Posted 28/04/2010 at 02:52:01

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Jamie (#95): you give two examples, one which is possible (Hibbert or Neville), one which is fantasy (pacy right winger)... see any difference?

For me, it's about living in the real world. In the real world, David Moyes is the manager of Everton. And he probably will be for some time yet. Could he do the job better? I think so, yes.

Perhaps it goes against your common perception of football fans, but I don't live in this fantasy FM land where your team gets whichever player is flavour of the month, and you can (presumably) change managers at will. It's nonsense.

We can't do that; Bill Kenwright certainly isn't going to do that. 98.5% of Evertonians aren't going to do that. It's a dozy question... a waste of space, time and effort. It is fantasyland. Give it a rest, for fuck's sake!

Peter Stone
108   Posted 28/04/2010 at 02:40:28

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Michael no offence meant (the reference to fish was per the "joke" in my long-winded post — no 97). Look, I really appreciate all the hard work that you, Lyndon and others put into this site. But is it the best web site in the world? Could it be better? If not, why not?

Why did we have wait so long for the Live Forum to become active? How come we couldn't register as members for ages or log on once we'd registered? Surely NSNO must apply to ALL things related to Everton — even fan's forums?

The reality (without knowing and in truth only 2nd guessing) is I imagine that you had issues with your previous host/server and needed to migrate — a pretty difficult undertaking considering the amount of data to transfer — to be accessible via a similar site architecture. All of these issues needed time, money and effort to resolve. Whilst patience needed to be exercised by owners and users alike.

So rather than focus on why this process wasn't anticipated and the site migration handled seamlessly, I anticipated that I would benefit from new features and was therefore tolerant and understanding of the process. My point is that situations aren't always clear-cut and we all have our story to tell — even David Moyes. I don't want to appear cantankerous, I really respect this site but I'm just saying too frequently the arguments degenerate into petty name-calling or disrespect. You're obviously a highly intelligent man Michael, so I find it all the more surprising that you descend to rhetoric like:

"Isn't that stating the bleeding obvious?"

"Your question is ridiculous and the presumption is ridiculous."

"I want him to do a better job... How hard is that for you to comprehend?"

Whilst I'm always interested to read your opinion, I'm sometimes a little disappointed in your choice of lexicon — that I perceive as sometimes demeaning. As the Executive Editor I suggest it's up to you to set the moral code of conduct as to how we interact.

Perhaps I'm over-sensitive, then again one of the main reasons I love supporting Everton, is because of my fellow Evertonians. So I'm happy to disagree and argue issues, not so happy to insult my fellow blues.

BTW I have a dog...... dogs eat cats.... Mind you my dog's called BJ, so he'd probably just roll over, dim the lights, put on some soft music, sip a large Manhattan and go get medieval on some pussy!

Jamie Sweet
109   Posted 28/04/2010 at 03:17:24

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I think everyone spends a little bit of time in "fantasyland" Michael - yourself included.

In your case, it's a land where a team should be capable of playing like Barcelona - and blowing teams out of the water every single game with no excuses.

In reality, not even Barcelona play like Barcelona every week.

It's not a crime to want the best from your team - which I understand is all you're asking for... and let's face it, it's what every single contibutor on this site wants.

It's also not a crime to be thankful for what we have and the position we are in at present... Maybe I was too hasty to head to fantasyland to make my point - but I stand by the point I was trying to make - that to date, I don't think anyone could have done a better job for Everton Football Club than David Moyes, and that in the wrong hands, we could have gone down the plug hole years ago.

I still want improvement, of course I do. I just personally believe Moyes is still the right man for the job.

Looking at the league table, it seems ridiculous to suggest we're making progress... but what I have seen with my own eyes, on the pitch recently, tells me genuine progress is starting to be made.

I see a butterfly - you see a caterpillar.
Michael Kenrick
110   Posted 28/04/2010 at 04:38:50

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Peter, we do strive to be the best Everton website in terms of quality... however you may interpret that. For me, it means quality of layout, format, and content but most of all, contributions... like yours. So thank you for them.

But it's a good analogy that you make. Yes, we've fallen short since taking the drastic step (in the middle of a season!) to not only switch web hosts, but to transition from a Windows server to a Unix server. Lots of our pages are dynamic, driven by code that Lyndon brilliantly creates. All the Active Server Pages (*.asp) are being changed to PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor (*.php) pages. The databases that drive those pages, including the ones that accept, hold, and then cast these comments in readable form, had to be changed from Access and Excel to MySQL...

[I was particularly impressed with the way I could update spreadsheets holding team and player stats that would instantly feed team and player webpages opened on the fly; sadly, that no longer happens :(( ]

The Live Forum Lyndon had built for the other host site would not work on his one... The Microsoft Windows software I have used for years to update the site no longer works, and I am re-training on Dreamweaver...

Just so many excuses for not being the best right now. But are we glum and downcast? Do we sink into a Blue Funk? Do we stop performing for six months because do not do what we did before... No! We strive to get back to where we where and eventually go beyond that because we are finally free from the shackles of Microsoft (Sorry Bill! .. no, the other one!)

At the end of the day, though, I'm just a fan like anybody else. We built the website because we are fans... and because we could. I've never accepted that should stop either of us commenting AS FANS with our opinions, firmly held or otherwise. Some people don't accpet that, and expect us to be neutral or impartial. Not gonna happen.

I usually don't get drawn in these days... except, it seems, on threads like this where I just can't resist chiming in with some balance to counteract the gushing admiration for a man whose job it was to basically w do hat he has done at Everton... only in my opinion it's taken twice as long as it should have, and we should have progressed from being 4th some years ago — instead, we've been going back down the table!!!

He was bought in because Walter Smith was utter crap (sorry if that's too strong for you... how many trophy's has he now won!?!), so if Moyes had not at least gotten us up into the top half of the table, he would be a total failure. But I digress...

If David Booth submits a ridiculous question, my first inclination is to ignore it. If he repeats it a few times, I guess something finally snaps and I wade in, telling it exactly as I see it. If that's too strong for you... well, so be it. Consider it an issue of quality control if you like. We could have all sorts of idiots posting shit on here (take a look at most other forums out there to see what I mean) but we don't; I think (hope!) most of our contributors are happy with that.

As I said, I try not to get involved, but frankly I see nothing wrong with the three quotes you chose. If you think they're questionable, I have to suspect you may have not been reading ToffeeWeb all that long... If it's demeaning, there is probably an intended element of that in this case. How else do you deal with someone who asks the same dozy question not once but three times and won't accept there isn't going to be an answer? These are instances where it goes beyond simply a difference of opinion...

Anyway, the only reason I'm wasting my time on him is I've got plenty of it, sitting here in Guatemala City, waiting for a flight home tomorrow.

Surely if your dog's called BJ, rather than he'll be looking for some bitch to go down on him rather than becoming a cunning linguist??? [Well, you started it with the fishy thing...]

Hasta Luego e Buenos Noches, Amigo!!!

Dave Wilson
111   Posted 28/04/2010 at 06:43:13

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Perhaps I didnt make myself clear, it wasn't an accusation, if anything it was an admission. I fall into the cynical arl arse etc group.

My point is this ; I may not get the over optimistic, Or the people you describe as happy for no apparent reason, or the people who truly believe we WILL win the league . . .but I wish to fuck I was one of them
Tony Anetts
112   Posted 28/04/2010 at 07:22:59

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What a fantastic thread. As a TW Voyeur I am moved to comment on the quality of the disparate and often opposed views put forward. While I often feel this site runs to the negative, it is more often than not for all the right reasons and the debate above stands as a monument to this site.

For Michael Kenrick - I don't profess to be literate in data query language or on the details of how complex web-sites are run. Your quick explanation of the change requirement was fascinating to me as I only ever see the shop front side of your site - whereas you see the back room and both the gun and the panic alarm below the counter. To you, Lyndon and the anonymous few - thanks on behalf of those TW Voyeurs - who like to watch but seldom play - who can only guess at the time, effort and expense it takes.

To Peter Stone - you need to comment more often mate - you are very entertaining and I think you had Michael for a moment with your analogy.

As for myself - neither fish, cat nor dog. A dead chicken sold to KFC me thinks.......
Sam Hoare
113   Posted 28/04/2010 at 08:41:29

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Peter- Brilliant analogy. The moral of which seems to be that we could all deal with showing a little more tolerance.

To me it seems slightly harsh to call David's question dozy. I'm sure such questions or similar have been asked before and will be asked again without receiving such disdain.

His point seems sound in that its very easy to criticise Moyes but interesting to think that one can't really look around and see any manager (that we realistically could have appointed) doing any better. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't point out Moyes flaws but only that we should perhaps treat them with more tolerance. Which harks back to Peter's argument and analogy.
Ciarán McGlone
114   Posted 28/04/2010 at 10:15:03

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His question is an attempt at utter and immediate dismissal of any criticism...

The fact that it appeared so early in the thread – should give you an indication of the erroneous esteem that some posters hold the apparent ability to describe a parallel universe.

It is certainly not a silver bullet against criticism...

If it was a genuine attempt to discuss the merits of how another manager would approach the team, then it may have some merit... but it isn't... at best it's disingenuous.

Anyway, whether the question is dozy or not – is a side issue..

The overwhelming feeling is clearly one of upward trend... and long may it continue... but if it doesn't, then I for one reserve the right to criticise.
Tony J Williams
115   Posted 28/04/2010 at 11:21:13

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Ciaran, you see it as an attempt at utter and immediate dismissal of any criticism, I see it as a question as to who do posters think, given the same contraints, could have done a better job than Moyes (reasonable answers). The bench mark is what Moyes has done, that is all, it's not saying that Moyes couldn't have done better, we all know he could have, so does he.

No manager is beyond criticism, not one but the double standards is what sticks in posters throats because apparantly to some, Moyes is not a very good manager but is judged and criticised on the basis that he is a great manager. As mentioned before, if he is so poor then surely expectations should be lower, not higher.
David Booth
116   Posted 28/04/2010 at 12:59:36

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Please Ciaran and Michael, stop putting a completely disporportionate and over-reactive spin on what was wholeheartedly intended as a simple, relevant and valid question.

As its author, I can assure everyone it was asked in an open, honest and genuine manner, without any hidden agenda, alternative implication or ulterior motive.

I find it unbelievable that something so straightforward is being taken completely out of context in this manner. An Everest-sized mountain from a molehill if ever there was one.

So please, once again, let ME explain what I meant, using two common examples:

If Bill Kenwright is criticised for lack of financial backing for the team, alternatives (such as potential new investors), are usually specified.

If, let's say, Hibbert or Osman are critcised, then alternatives (such as Coleman and Donovan), are usually specified.

Therefore, I think it is completely fair, and logical, to ask that, where David Moyes is criticised, those who do should be capable of suggesting someone who could do better.

I am not trying to dismiss anyone's opinions. To the contrary I am ASKING for them...

I also think it is totally relevant to the topic created by Peter in the first place - in that I consider Moyes a 'butterfly'.

For those that regard him as a 'caterpillar', is it really such a heinous crime to ask which crysallis they would like to see in his place?
David Booth
117   Posted 28/04/2010 at 13:30:28

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To Dennis in post 98, who commented: "The point of the question is to emphasise how highly the questioner views Moyes, not to engage in a genuine debate as to the merits of possible alternatives who either could have been appointed instead or could potentially replace Moyes."

Yes, I do view Moyes very highly, but would never consider him immune from criticism. He, like you and I, is not perfect.

Please be assured, my question was intended 100 per cent to encourage genuine debate on the merits of possible alternatives who could potentially replace him.

Unfortunately, no-one has so far.

Instead, someone's stuck a 'Life Of Brian' carrot on my nose and I'm in danger of being burned as a witch!
David Booth
118   Posted 28/04/2010 at 13:48:42

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Ooops: wrong analogy... it was the 'Holy Grail'.

But they did it!
Brendan O'Doherty
119   Posted 28/04/2010 at 14:20:23

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Such a shame that this thread should degenerate into an inquisition into whether or not a perfectly innocent question is 'dozy' or 'ridiculous'. You're banging your head against a brick wall in trying to get a sense of proportion.

Language like "an attempt at utter and immediate dismissal of any criticism" smacks of intolerance.

Ciarán McGlone
120   Posted 28/04/2010 at 15:36:50

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What - like the treatment of Andy?

Or your pejorative reference about those disagreeing with the premise of this thread as 'those who don't go to matches'?

Check your won language before you beat the big drum Brendan.

David Booth,

Your post 5 has no context of genuine investigation.
Brendan O'Doherty
121   Posted 28/04/2010 at 16:05:47

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What — like the treatment of Andy? Aaah, the poor thing. Many on here objected to his reference to ineptitude.

"Or your pejorative reference about those disagreeing with the premise of this thread as 'those who don't go to matches'?" — No, not those disagreeing with the premise of this thread, but the 'Irish Mafia' to which Tony Neeson alluded but which has now been censored/deleted (seems appropriate).

However I do accept your assertion that attending matches does not necessarily make anyone more knowledgeable. I was questioning the perceived lack of backing for the team and manager, which from my experience is not present at GP.

David Booth
122   Posted 28/04/2010 at 16:26:50

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Ciaran... my post 5... what?

It does pose three very simple questions though and although I haven't got my thesaurus handy, isn't that more or less the same thing?
Brendan McLaughlin
123   Posted 28/04/2010 at 16:25:26

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Andy posted that Moyes needed to go. It's a ridiculous suggestion and he was, quite rightly, lambasted for it.
Dave Wilson
124   Posted 28/04/2010 at 16:28:01

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David Booth

I`m sure you can and would get answers to your question if you were to go about it another way, you are now flogging the proverbial dead horse on this thread. However, if you were to start another and come from a different direction, I think you`ll be surprised by the response.
David Booth
125   Posted 28/04/2010 at 17:53:14

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Thanks Dave, that thought had crossed my mind too.

I think it would provoke some genuinely interesting discussion!
Andy Crooks
126   Posted 28/04/2010 at 19:49:17

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Brendan McLaughlin, I suggested a regime change for the following reason:

David Moyes and Bill Kenwright are, in my view, intrinsically linked. I cannot envisage David Moyes working for another owner or Kenwright with another manager. They have supported each other through thick and thin and this is entirely admirable. However, I believe that the last two summers have shown that they are not good enough.

I don't like the phrase 'apologists' so I will ask, Can those who support them not consider that things might be different and better? The suggestion that we would end up like Sheffield Wednesday with Gary Megson as manager is misguided; we are offering £4 million a year... surely you can at least consider that there might be an alternative.

Dennis Stevens
127   Posted 28/04/2010 at 21:31:28

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Any debate about who could have been manager over the last eight years, or who could be receuited now instead of Moyes. Whatever names are thrown into the debate will be dismissed by some & lauded by others but we'll never know whether they would have been better or worse than Moyes because we can't go back in time. We also won't find out if they would do better in the future because Moyes will be manager of Everton for a good while yet.

To have the debate would be pointless and inconclusive and I still think David Booth's tongue must be firmly in cheek when he claims to be trying to "encourage genuine debate".

However, I'm far more concerned by personal nature of his derogatory comments — "not perfect" ?? — you speak for yourself, David! ;-)

David Booth
128   Posted 28/04/2010 at 21:50:20

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Andy, I wouldn't dispute that the last two Summers were highly frustrating and yes, we did appear to have been not once, but twice bitten!

BUT, look at what's been achieved when we've got into gear.

Now, and this time last year, we're just about unbeatable with a squad that oozes quality and potential from top to bottom.

With a bit more self belief and cockiness - qualities that Heitinga, Jagielka, Fellaini and Arteta are capable of instilling - we'd be even better.

Yes, there is room for a bit of tweaking down the right hand side and the need for some pace and movement up front, but surely they're not sufficient deficiencies to suggest Moyes ought to be replaced?

Jagielka, Baines, Heitinga, Fellaini, Arteta, Pienaar and Saha (on his day), would fit seamlessly into any top Premiership side. Add the likes of Coleman, Donovan, a new keeper (who's on his way already) and a fit Yakubu or a pacy inside forward (Bilyaletdinov's true position in my opinion) and there's one helluva team.

So yes, whilst I obviously want us to win every game and get frustrated when we don't, we as Evertonians are surely intuitive and knowledgeable enough to appreciate what we've got aren't we? Even the most impatient of us still have room for some realism and perspective don't we?

Pound-for-pound, no-one has assembled a better side in the whole division.

Without limitless millions at his disposal, Moyes cannot create a dynasty overnight. But one could clearly be coming.

So give the guy the credit he deserves and let's be proud of what he's achieving in a measured, measurable and admirable way.

From the tone of some on here, you'd think we were fighting off relegation, playing dreadful football and had nothing to look forward to.

Without David Moyes, we could be...

PS: I am not an apologist, happy with 'mediocrity', or content not to win things.
Ciarán McGlone
129   Posted 28/04/2010 at 22:16:50

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Mr Booth,

I can agree with the majority of your last post...we are in a good position...

The parts of your post I don't agree with - have been done to death above. So we'll leave it at that.
Brendan McLaughlin
130   Posted 28/04/2010 at 23:07:45

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Andy Crooks. Not a problem of course I can consider that things could be different and better but equally I ask you, could things not be different and worse?

Overall things have improved with Moyes at the helm & I am optimistic that we will continue that upward trend.

Regime change.... you're having a laugh!!!!

Peter Stone
131   Posted 29/04/2010 at 00:18:15

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I don't know if any of you remember the famous Hamlet Cigar ads? Well I've uploaded a quick radio ad from my archives here:

It's only 1 MB to download and well worth a listen, as I think it reflects where we've arrived at with this post. At worst, I'm sure it will be hard to suppress a smile when you hear it!

Point is, we all have opinions that are frequently diametrically opposed. One man's caterpillar IS another man's butterfly. I used to think I knew a bit about footy — until I ended up playing in a 5-a-side team with Tony Gale, sometimes Ray "Butch" Wilkins and even had the honour of being on the same side as Sharpy and Snods once! BTW — don't confuse me with anybody good — I was very lucky as I used to work for a major media company, for whom these guys would commentate for and this was purely for fun.

However (I'm pretty sure it was in the first game I played), Tony Gale was getting frustrated, so effortlessly moved into another gear, easily dribbling past fit lads half his age, before rocketing the ball into the net. He did this with great aplomb and almost at will.... So much for the notion of stereotypical "limited" centre half's thinks I!

In the same game, Butch Wilkins started to make stacks of time and space for himself by taking the ball early with superb ball control and clever body positioning, so that nobody else really got a look-in. He dictated everything that went on with the poise and precision of a top Orchestral conductor.

In several of the post-match beer conversations I asked these lads (probably loads of naive) questions about the game of soccer and then drank up the answers. My conclusion is that they had already forgotten more than I'll ever learn about the minutiae of football. Naturally — because they dedicated their whole lives to achieve an excellent standard of performance in that one area.

That's why, if I feel ill, I go to a Doctor; if I have a toothache, I visit a dentist: need a haircut? Mmmmmm, let me think.... Butcher or Barber? "One large sausage and a mullet please" — probably not best asked for in either!

But hopefully you get my point? We're all commenting on things we don't really have a full understanding of. We base our perspective on a limited bandwidth of information and fill in the gaps as we see fit!

That's why when my partner asks me how her hair looks after a visit to the hairdresser, I can only opine what I think. I might like her cut, colour, whatever, but a qualified hairdresser may well go into all sorts of detail about split ends, uneven layers or whatever distinguishes good haircuts from bad. Of course I avoid phrases such as "It'll be lovely once it's finished", "It's.... interesting", or "I like the way they've left that section at the back longer" etc. Naturally I want her to be happy. However, I am also acutely aware of my own limitations and so tend to slip in a quick caveat in case I need an escape route, when somebody who does know what they're really talking about comes on the scene!

Thing is, Gents and Ladies, our Everton family is an amazing gift. When I was at the Cup Final last year (and in fact in 95 and 84 as a kid), all I did was make some fantastic new friends, who will probably be lifelong friends. IF indeed we do not choose but we are chosen, then let's see a bit more of that in our respect for each other's viewpoints. A bit more tolerance and a bit less degradation would be welcome.

To Michael and Lyndon — I thought long and hard about whether to use the ToffeeWeb Website as an analogy; please understand I think you guys do a great job and it wasn't a cheap shot at you.

To my fellow Evertonians, thank you not only for your comments, but for your passion.


Brendan O'Doherty
132   Posted 29/04/2010 at 02:07:02

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"It'll be lovely once it's finished". Absolutely fantastic! Had me in stitches that.

You played with Sharpy and Snods! A feather in your cap if there ever was one!
Dave Wilson
133   Posted 29/04/2010 at 06:10:49

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Peter Stone

On understanding the finer points.

I believe people who have played the game - whatever the level - have a distinct advantage over those who haven't, but a suggestion that people who have played at the top automatically have a deep understanding of the game, is one that could only be made by somebody who has never listened to the thoughts of people like Ratcliffe, Beglin, Dublin . . . . I better stop there, gotta busy day great thread though
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
134   Posted 29/04/2010 at 06:36:13

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Brendan and Cairan, this thread was long enough without you two going at each other. In the spirit of Peter's request for showing respect, your recent posts (along with other off-topic contributions) have been removed.
Richard Dodd
135   Posted 29/04/2010 at 09:32:19

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Blimey... I`m a legendary Moyes fan but if I had submitted this piece I would have been dubbed a snivelling sycophant.... yet again!

I think we`ve done marvellously well this season -taking everything into consideration — but we still lack the consistency to make the final push. Arsenal and Barcelona? Give us a break, will you?

Ciarán McGlone
136   Posted 29/04/2010 at 10:28:07

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Fair enough Michael. Guilty as charged.


Superb post....But I think you overdo it a bit how a footballing career automatically puts you on a higher plane - Just have a listen to the absolute drivel Stan Collymore spouts on Talksport...or listen to Jason McAteer..

I went to the barbers once, asked for a mullet and came out with a perm.

This is certainly one rule that doesn't fit all.
Alan Kirwin
137   Posted 29/04/2010 at 10:39:59

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Eugene/Dave - I thought the term "realist" had been banned on here. I regard myself as one and have used it before, often to be met with a deluge of scorn and derision.

Realists are not pessimists. Realism is simply the maintaining of a perspective. It doesn't remove the dreams and desires. It doesn't prevent outright ecstacy if we score in the 95th minute to beat Fulham 2-1 and it doesn't stop one keeping the faith at all times.

Bit what it does do is prevent one tearing one's hair out, or venting one's spleen, or slagging off fellow supporters because they apparently don't eat, sleep & breathe EFC. It means we can take defeat as a consequence of sport. Luck, good & bad, happens. I don't approach a new season and explicitly anticipate Everton finishing 8th or 9th, as our resources would imply. But nor do I lose sleep or stop smiling if we do. Football is a game. There will always be more important things in life.
Alan Kirwin
138   Posted 29/04/2010 at 10:55:51

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Peter Stone - sublime post dear boy, and I just listened to the Hamlet bastard, you should have warned that incontinence trousers were needed, almost pissed myself.
Tony J Williams
139   Posted 29/04/2010 at 11:01:14

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Wash your mouth out with soap Alan!! How very dare you suggest a love other than Everton FC....
David Booth
140   Posted 29/04/2010 at 12:29:52

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Just a quick footnote before this thread gets pushed down the pecking order and disappears into obscurity: my compliments to Peter for a balanced and thought-provoking introduction - and for his wonderfully balanced comments throughout.

More of the same please...
Peter Stone
141   Posted 29/04/2010 at 15:04:02

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Thank you everybody for making this such an interesting post. As for the kind comments from certain people, I think I might be a one-trick pony, so it's back to the ToffeeVoyeur Wardrobe for me. Plus the fact Richard Dodd himself admitted I "out-doddied" him - so where else could I go from here?!

I rather feel like Salman Rushdie, author of 'The Satanic Verses' (a book perceived to be so blasphemous against Islam that Iran's then "spiritual leader" Ayatollah Khomeini - issued a fatwa order to execute him), finally came out of hiding a few years ago. When interviewed by journalists enquiring if he had any regrets about writing the book, he answered a resolute "No". Some of the hacks doubted this, feeling that surely the threat of murder must have been an incredible strain on him. However he seemed to confidently deal with any further questions pursuing this line of enquiry, so the media circus then changed tact. They asked if he had, or would be writing any new books. To which he replied in the affirmative. The assembled journalists, looking for a scoop, pressed him for details. In the end Salman Rushdie relented and finally agreed that although he wouldn't discuss content, he would give them the working title of his pending publication. The paparazzi held their breath, straining forwards with dictaphones, microphones, notebooks and pens at the ready........ Salman Rushdie paused, maximised the anticipation before boldly announcing "My next book is called....... Buddha.....yer fat bastard"!!!!!!!!!

NSNO fellow Evertonians.
Andy Crooks
142   Posted 29/04/2010 at 19:32:34

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Peter,I disagree with you, but you have made one of the best threads for some time. You have demonstrated, with the odd intervention of the editor, that debate is alive and well on toffeeweb.

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