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The Final Frontier?

By Albert Perkins :  05/06/2010 :  Comments (62) :
I live in the USA and follow every Everton game and read ToffeeWeb probably every day. I\'ve been a fan since 1963 and Alex Young is still my all-time favourite footballer. I feel so privileged to have seen him play.

I also work with gay men and lesbian women. A high percentage of both sexes play sports at quite a high level, some at the state level. In Europe, that would equate to playing for their country.

It is more common for the women to be \'out\' about their sexual preference. It appears to make little or no difference to their status as sportspersons. They are successful athletes who happen to be lesbian.

The male situation is more difficult for gay athletes. There is still a stigma to being gay in the USA, mainly because of the powerful Christian movement.

A friend told me once that she was interested in Christianity while at college in the US in the 1960s but was put off by their attitude to people of colour. They showed her where it said in the Bible that blacks were inferior beings.

Since then, the Church has accepted that this is not the case and that, whatever colour you are, you are still a child of God and equal in the eyes of the creator.

It seems to me that the church will eventually realize that gays and lesbians are indeed equal in the sight of their god as they belatedly did with their attitude to people of color.

OK... Back to football. Remember how the first black players were treated by some racist fans? I remember bananas being thrown at black players and racist chants at our own Goodison Park.

It seems that we are a bit more mature about the colour of our footballers these days, especially as many of our favorites are people of colour.

I am confident that the same attitude change will occur concerning gay footballers. We all want to be ourselves, as true to ourselves as we can, to be whole and free to express our feelings. Just imagine how it would feel if we were ostracized because we supported our beloved Everton FC. If people would not let us marry other Evertonians or shunned us if we wore the blue.

There is no doubt that we watch gay footballers every week and that we respect and admire their abilities. I wonder if you would lose that respect if you found out they were gay.

Let's remember we have overcome much of the racist issues in football and look to do the same with homophobia.

Reader Comments

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Peter Warren
1   Posted 05/06/2010 at 21:58:14

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I don't want to support a team which is made up of only gays. That said, if Messi is gay and he played for us, no I couldn't give a monkey's.
Gavin Ramejkis
2   Posted 05/06/2010 at 22:07:52

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Adrian Heath and Peter Reid to name two in blue, didn't bother me a jot and I'm sure people could name more.
James I'Anson
3   Posted 05/06/2010 at 22:13:30

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Well, our new away kit for next season is a bit gay, if that counts.
Dave Smith
4   Posted 05/06/2010 at 22:00:14

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I kind of see what your saying Peter. I would be worried about how certain aspects of my support of the said club would be interpreted. But only worried. I wouldn't turn my back on Everton under such conditions.

However, as you said with Messi; if everything else footballers get up too in their private lives can be dismissed if they play well, then what's the difference if they're gay? Examples would be Barton, Gerrard and Boywer.
Peter Warren
5   Posted 05/06/2010 at 22:41:18

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I can't imagine ever turning my back on Everton — but don't imagine our team ever being made up of only gays either!

Can't imagine our team only ever being made up of ginger people either — and the probability is higher than gays.

I have nothing against gays or gingers — but would just be weird if our whole team was either wouldn't it. If they were gays and ginger and then playing away from home in our new strip... just wouldn't be right?
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
6   Posted 05/06/2010 at 22:45:52

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James (#3), I should perhaps have explained that this post by Mr Perkins was originally submitted as a comment on the Hot Pink thread. However, I thought it discusses a topic that is actually different from that of pink away shirts, and is of itself worthy of discussion... (which may well descend into rampant tribalism and the fear of being queer).
Peter Warren
7   Posted 05/06/2010 at 22:46:06

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In relation to the article, I personally don't believe the comparison of racial discrimination and sexual preference is a like-for-like comparison.

Discriminating because of somebody's skin colour just makes no sense and is just plain racist.

Saying, a gay man — more likely they will be camp and emotional and more attributes like a woman — is more based on fact.
Dennis Stevens
8   Posted 05/06/2010 at 22:45:27

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I'm not, um, arsed whether or not a footballer is gay. I don't even care if they choose to share their superstitions with us, er, I mean express their faith publicly. I just hope they play well for us. Mind you, it's been a tall order having to accept a manager that's both a Scot & a ginge!
Jon Beck
9   Posted 05/06/2010 at 23:00:20

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Interesting use of 'fact', Peter, sounds more like 'stereotype'. I personally only care about someone's footballing ability, not his sexuality.
Dick Fearon
10   Posted 05/06/2010 at 23:14:32

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Provided a person's sexual preference does not harm the well being of the general public and is not a financial burden on the already over stretched health services, I couldn't care less.

I am puzzled though that the homosexual lifestyle is called 'gay' when in fact it promotes misery by promoting conduct that is killing millions.

Mike Allison
11   Posted 05/06/2010 at 23:31:12

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Shouldn't matter at all.

The thing is, stereotypes, whether fair or not, usually originate from a commonly held perception. From this perspective, I would argue that professional sportsmen (women are totally different, and probably opposite, case) are slightly less likely to be gay than the general population because of the traditional 'manly' virtues associated with being sporty. If, for example, 5% of the male population of the country were homesexual, I would expect a lower percentage than that of gay professional footballers.

Sadly, it's almost certainly true that there are some gay professional footballers and they don't tell anyone because they're afraid of the reaction. Our American friends will know better than me the reaction to John Amaeche's (sp?) revelations when his career finished, and the Welsh Rugby Union star Gareth Thomas made sure he waited till his career was pretty much over before coming out.

I guess this issue has arisen due to our pink kit (pathetic really) but it also reflects the lack of much else to talk about. It's a non-issue, but probably for the wrong reason, namely that no-one has tried to break the boundaries yet (Justin Fashanu was before my time, so I don't really know the full story, though unfortunately I know the ending) rather than that it genuinely doesn't matter to people. I find prejudices and stereotypes of this type, or at least strong negative views about them, completely ridiculous, so I can't say it's ever going to bother me. If Everton won the league with a squad of 25 screaming queens, I'd see a league winning Everton and nothing else, and not give a fuck what anyone else said or thought.
Christine Foster
12   Posted 05/06/2010 at 23:55:37

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The choice of a Pink away strip has made some guys out there uncomfortable because of the perception of something less manly. Everton supporters are like anyone else — a cross section of the population — and the post was both well meaning and thought-provoking. Attitudes of society do change although (sadly) some things like homophobia are still seen as a threat to "normal" men ( as if its like catching a cold).

Which brings us back to the shirt and the thought that a guy can't wear pink because it is effeminate. Well, I guess it is. But did you know that a hundred years ago the colour associated with boys WAS pink and the colour for girls WAS blue?

Society changes and so does perception. I guess that's the point. But the shirt Is not a statement nor is it intended to raise the issues but it takes a great guy to proudly wear team colours and frankly we have some great guys both on the pitch and even greater supporters off it. We are Everton.

Charlie Percival
13   Posted 06/06/2010 at 00:21:01

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Hmmmmm..... Which of our players are gay????

Is that why the Yak runs in a strange way?!!!
Rob Pursglove
14   Posted 06/06/2010 at 00:27:37

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It doesn't matter what they do in their bedroom, it's what they do on the pitch. Jon(#9) Spot on.
Paul Webster
15   Posted 06/06/2010 at 00:37:33

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Dick Fearon: 'I am puzzled though that the homosexual lifestyle is called Gay when in fact it promotes misery by promoting conduct that is killing millions.'

Did you actually mean to say that? Is your name — DICK FEARon — a pseudonym, indicative of your homophobia (ie fear and misunderstanding of homosexuality)?

Phil Bellis
16   Posted 06/06/2010 at 00:52:06

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I like pink — it's a nice, bright, Summery colour.

I was brought up by some of the nicest Jesuits you could wish to meet, and some were definitely of a different sexual persuasion to that which they promulgated.

As long as same sex relationships are not made mandatory, no problem.

Still can't resist a dig at Torres, though - yeah, I know, negates my argument, but...

Rob Hollis
17   Posted 06/06/2010 at 01:12:46

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Strange subject for the site.

If you simply refuse to identify people by class, race or sexuality then it becomes a non-subject and you can get on with treating them as people.

If you are still identifying sexuality in football as a problem then it gives people like Dick Fearon the opportunity to spit their bile in public.

Dick, sexual disease is spread by not using condoms, not by gay sex. Maybe you should get on to Catholic Web and have a go at the Pope. That might be worthwhile and have a bit more substance.
James Flynn
18   Posted 06/06/2010 at 05:17:57

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Win games!!! Who gives a shit if the guy who helped our team win prefers men to woman? Really, who gives a shit?

I'm born and raised in New York City. I've worked with and seen as many gay men (hiding nothing about themselves) as any hetero male. Beyond thinking "Ugh" watching two men kissing, I could care less what the next guy's doing as long as he's not doing it with my woman.

Albert - You're skating on thin ice stating discrimination against gay males is because of christianity. If you actually live in America, you know well the biggest Jesus-slinging gay-bashers have been outed for the man-loving fellows they are.

This must really be the off-season for this conversation to be on ToffeeWeb. Some men are gay. That's that and so what. I'd posit that when we are discussing (military, sports) areas where it's all about men, some of the men we're discussing prefer guys to girls.

EFC 2010-11 - LIft the League Cup next May. I don't care if some of the players will be celebrating with their male lovers or female lovers. Just win the damn thing.
Who gives a shit? I don't.

By the way Albert, don't compare gay bashing to our ongoing problems with our centuries-old problem between Black and White.
Mike McLean
19   Posted 06/06/2010 at 05:28:56

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It's a funny old world, much of it defined by tribalism... we define ourselves as much by who we are not, as by who we are.

Look at the artcle below this. It isn't, apparently, enough to support Everton; we must also despise Kopites.Doesn't make a lot of sense given the context of the city and the interningling of Blues and Reds, but hey! It confirms our place in the tribe.

And so with Gay issues. If being Gay is not a problem, can we look forward to a season where GP is relatively free of homophobic taunts? Fat chance. Doubtless the herd mentality plays its part... individual responsibility easily loses itself in the heat of the moment with 40,000 other screaming fans, and we allow ourselves to express things that on our own, in the cool light of day, we would never dream of doing.

However, is that a good enough excuse? Would we excuse a crowd screaming the odious "Nigger" word at African players? I hope not (though sadly, a few at Goodison come very close to the KKK in their views). Perhaps a major change will also come with homophobic abuse, and it too will become just as unthinkable. I'd like to think so, so that I could share a major part of my life with my partner.

By the way, to the guy above who worries being gay might become mandatory: have no fear! There are stringent tests; a rigorous selection process! (Joke, feller ... it's a very diverse, accepting community. Something football needs to learn from.)

Mike McLean
20   Posted 06/06/2010 at 05:56:18

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Oh, and James Flynn: we'll compare homophobia to racism whether you like it or not because the comparison is appropriate. And we'll discuss it here whether you like it or not. unless you've suddenly discovered you have a veto over what is and is not relevant.
James Flynn
21   Posted 06/06/2010 at 06:29:57

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Mike (30) — "we'll compare homophobia to racism...". Do whatever you want. Charge down mid-Manhattan 5th Avenue naked with your boyfriend on the 4th of July. I have no interest or care about homosexuality. I accept some humans prefer same sex than opposite. Even writing this, I'm getting bored.

This is a fan site supporting EFC. Winning is everything. That some of the players (or fans) celebrate afterward with a stiff one in their mouth is meaningless. Let's lift the Trophy.

Gavin Ramejkis
22   Posted 06/06/2010 at 10:53:07

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Mike Allison, at the time of Justin Fashanu's outing, those were the same days it was perfectly normal to get tanked up on Party Four or Party Six and drive home; some stupid things were accepted and others frowned upon.

As far as pink itself goes, I don't have a problem with pink and indeed have a couple of pink dress shirts I wear to work with a suit and they look great.

The football kit shade of pink is minging and hasn't been a colour the club has used for over 100 years (we aren't celebrating an anniversary). The Portsmouth keeper's shirt on the last game of the season was minging too and that was because of it's garish colour. Personally, I just don't like the shade of pink used on the kit, nothing to do with homophobia (married with two kids but have friends of all persuasions).

I'd have loved a 70s style bright yellow kit (I'd kill to have my 77-78 Everton away kit from boyhood with Latchford on it again even if it was scratchy as hell)

The link shows the colours we have played in before, including pink and red, but nothing as garish as this season's away colour:

Home -

Away -

Dick Fearon
23   Posted 06/06/2010 at 11:08:54

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Paul W (15). Your miserable attempt at humour probably says more about you than it does about me.
Now I am perplexed; is it really your opinion that a homosexual lifestyle does not promote or at least help to spread the rapidly worsening worldwide Aids tragedy?

Does the wearing of a condom by same sex couples make the act itself anything less than homosexual?

I am still at a loss as to why it is called Gay.

Peter Warren
24   Posted 06/06/2010 at 11:38:53

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Gay is Gay and some comments being made on here are gay.
Dick Fearon
25   Posted 06/06/2010 at 11:31:11

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Re: my earlier message (23), I ought to have made mention of Rob H (17) —It was he who implied that homosexual sex did not cause Aids, it was not wearing a condom that is at fault.

Am I expected to believe that condoms are always used in all same sex couplings? Pull the other one, its got bells on it.

Eric Myles
26   Posted 06/06/2010 at 11:44:46

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It's pretty obvious if a player is 'a person of colour' as you put it, but how will we know if a player is gay? Do you want them to wear a patch on their shirt to identify them?
Ciarán McGlone
27   Posted 06/06/2010 at 11:48:44

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Your prejudiced and ill-informed comments are embarrassing.

Eric Myles
28   Posted 06/06/2010 at 11:53:59

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"The thing is, stereotypes, whether fair or not, usually originate from a commonly held perception" — I think you mean common misconception. But maybe we now have the opportunity to introduce a new standard club song TRBs "Sing if your Glad to be Gay"
Andy McNabb
29   Posted 06/06/2010 at 12:28:12

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Is this what they call a "slow news day"?
I was hoping for a discussion on 'Star Trek'.
David Hallwood
30   Posted 06/06/2010 at 12:45:54

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To continue Dennis Stevens's (#8) double entendre-themed post, I think that the majority are comfortable with people with different sexual persuasion provided they don’t ram it down your throat. There’s evidence of that by the number of openly gay MPs who, as long as they don’t make an issue of their sexuality and are hard-working, get re-elected, and therefore there is very little evidence of people not voting for them because of what they do in the bedroom.

But back to the testosterone-fuelled world of football; mmmmmm... don’t know about that one. You can imagine some of the chants directed to an ‘outed’ footballer, and can you imagine the stick he’d get off other players, just remember the Robbie Fowler/Le Saux feud — and that rumour started because Le Saux visited art galleries!

Personally, I think we’re a decade away from gay footballers being accepted by fans; Albert’s analogy of black players is a fair point, as anyone who started watching football in the 70s would testify (remember Cliff Marshall’s debut?) and the ‘Everton are White’ chants from the fans not too long ago...

And finally, James Flynn's (#21) post: "This is a fan site supporting EFC. Winning is everything. That some of the players (or fans) celebrate afterward with a stiff one in their mouth is meaningless. Let's lift the Trophy"

If the marketing department had anything about them, they’d make lots of pink pounds with the DVD
Chris Butler
31   Posted 06/06/2010 at 13:06:50

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Personally, I think we focus on too many things the players do off the pitch. It's what happens on the pitch that matters. In my opinion, players should separate what they do off the pitch, whatever it may be, and when 3 o'clock arrives they are footballers not anything else.

It's really only in Britian where people think what footballers do off the pitch matters. For example, Paulo Di Canio admitted he was a fascist in Italy. If that was in Britain, he would be sacked. What players do or say in their own time is up to them.

Phil Bellis
32   Posted 06/06/2010 at 13:23:03

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I feel we should all live by the maxim of that greatest of all philosophers, who, although exhibiting, at times, a measure of cruelty and a propensity for meeting violence with violence when roused, had a good heart: "I yam what I yam... and that's all what I yam"
Popeye the Sailor Man.
Phil Paulson
33   Posted 06/06/2010 at 13:30:20

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I've rarely read such a laughably blinkered claim before:
In the US "a high percentage of both sexes play sports at quite a high level, some at the state level. In Europe, that would equate to playing for their country".

No doubt playing for the US national team would equate to playing for Planet Earth.

On the gay footballers point, when I ponder the existence of "gay footballer" I see the word "footballer" and I imagine a ball, a pitch and goalposts. Maybe the gay lobby and homophobes see the word "gay" and all the importance is attached to their sexuality.
David Moore
34   Posted 06/06/2010 at 13:24:27

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Peter Warren (7): you are just making the biggest stereotype ever. I hope you read back over you comments and are ashamed. Your "facts", do they include Gareth Thomas & Ian Roberts (former Aussie NRL player) who were two of the toughest players of their respective codes. You are a inidication of why society is still so sexist, because you believe they are soft and not equal. From your comments it looks as if you believe that they are inferior. I can tell you I have many gay friends and don't care one iota. Also on your first comment, "I don't want to support a team which is made up of only gays", screams Homophobe, and would be like a gay man saying I don't wan to support a team that is only heterosexual.

Grow up and live in the 21st Century. Gays and lesbians are welcome now and they are only discriminated against because of people like you and the Catholic Church.

There, rant over.
Mike McLean
35   Posted 06/06/2010 at 13:32:22

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Oh Lord. I really didn't want to get involved in a Supporters Educational Programme type discussion, but, Dick, you need info.

Dick, by far the larger number of people with Aids is the straight community. The causes are ignorance and – in some cases – poverty, as well as the cultural (including religious) expectations in certain parts of the globe.

Do all gay people wear condoms? No – for the same sorts of reasons, perhaps with the addition of occasionally being too drunk to remember / care.

James Flynn: there is something of the School Prefect about you, but thank you for your various permissions. I'll pass them on to HQ for further action.

And lastly, David Hallwood. You suggest an admirable way forward in not wanting preferences forced onto the attention of others. I guess this will happen when the almost automatic choice of epithet at matches isn't homophobic; when the City of Liverpool and other places stops seeing quite so many homophobic attacks. Until then, I'd expect the level of militancy in the gay agenda to continue to be high.

Geoff Edwards
36   Posted 06/06/2010 at 13:56:30

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Were Peter Reid and Adrian Heath really gay?

Honestly, who gives a shit if a player's gay or not? Can't believe this is even being debated.
Danny Burke
37   Posted 06/06/2010 at 13:44:06

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I dont give a monkey's what people do behind closed doors or how they lead their lives (as long as it's legal obviously). If we signed Elton John and Graham Norton, I wouldn't give a shite, they would be judged on the same criteria as every other person who pulls on the blue shirt.

I'm certain that there are some gay footballers playing at quite a high level, they are secretive about their sexuality because, like it or not, the Neanderthal section of society will pipe up at every ground up and down the country and that player will be subject to chants and taunts, most of which will probably be more than crude and offensive. Football can be hostile at the best of times without making a rod for your own back, why put yourself through it? It is sad that this is the way of things but I don't blame them for keeping their sexuality secret.

I suppose another consideration would be the the mentality of your teammates. Would they accept you? Would they treat you differently? You can imagine some players not wanting to shower or change with openly gay team mates.
Samuel Yates
38   Posted 06/06/2010 at 17:04:50

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Very strange topic for the site. As long as we haven't got a whole team of floppy wrists I'm not bothered either. What happens and home stays at home. Nothing against gays!

As for the pink shirt, well it's a great excuse to get the misses to wear the badge a bit more!!
David Thomas
39   Posted 06/06/2010 at 17:27:17

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Geoff Edwards,

In answer to your question, neither Reid or Heath are gay.
Dennis Stevens
40   Posted 06/06/2010 at 17:49:13

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Gavin, we are, or should be, celebrating the 120th anniversary of Everton winning the Title for the first time in 1890-91. The shirts then were salmon pink & I think the club should have brought out shirts in that colour, & perhaps that style too, as a mark of respect for the first team of Everton Champions.

Dick "Aids is the Gay Plague" Fearon — you seem to be stuck in a time warp — what's the view like from the 1980s?
James Stewart
41   Posted 06/06/2010 at 20:05:46

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@18, James Flynn pretty much sums it up for me.
Brendan O'Doherty
42   Posted 06/06/2010 at 23:13:58

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Except that we won't be lifting the League Cup next May, James (#18). We'll be lifting the League Cup in February and the Premier League Trophy in May. Small but huge distinction, James.
Derek Thomas
43   Posted 07/06/2010 at 00:50:19

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It's not illegal, nor is it compulsory.

If I only like women does it make make male lesbian, if so can I have a large cash grant as seems to be the norm for minorities... Oh and do I get a discount off my new pink shirt?
Fran Mitchell
44   Posted 07/06/2010 at 00:49:40

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How did this descend into a debate about Aids? seriosly Dick, your name is quite apt at this moment.

James Fylnn, if you find no interest why respond? This is an interesting subject, related to football as a whole. This is a site, yes to discuss Everton FC but also football as a whole, and we discuss a range of things from the politics, economics, tactics, shared/personal experiences and more, all relating to football. While Everton are currenlty on a haitus, I feel this sort of discussion is quite welcome and shows why this website is greater than any other fan website. Some subjects don't particulary interest me, but I dont comment on those ones. Simples.

On the subject raised by the post. It is quite an interesting subject. As much as people like to claim society is now tolerant of homosexuality, I beleive this is not totallly the case. Homosexuals may not openly be called x, y and z by the media or general public, but homophobia does exist.

In the sometimes tribal environment of the football stands, could you really imagine a footballer getting away with being gay? I couldn't, I believe it would be the focus of rival fans each and every game. Also, if a Phil Neville, or Tony Hibbert was gay, I believe it would be the focus of much of their criticism.

Also, in the wider context of sport including sponsorships, if David Beckham was gay, or Rooney, Gerrard, Messi, Ronaldo etc do you really think they would be accepted as they are? Would they hold the same commercial power? I don't think they would.

I do believe that footballers will still to this day be encouraged not to come out. Such actions could hamper their value, footballers are commodities and as such clubs (and agents of course) would not allow this.

To believe that there isn't one gay person out of the hundreds of footballers in the football league is ridiculous.

Of course when asked, 99% of fans will say "I don't care what he does in his bedroom", but if this was truly the case, why then don't they come out? This is the question that should be discussed.
Albert Perkins
45   Posted 07/06/2010 at 05:07:38

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I only made the comment that started this stream off because someone made a small derogatory comment like, 'Can gays play football?'

I'm surprised and happy to see that this issue has been taken up by so many people with so many different and intelligent views.

This is what makes ToffeeWeb so great. There is intelligence mixed with the down-to-earth Scouse humor and grit. That comment about not caring if someone is gay so long as they don't shove it down my throat! Priceless.

But these comments brought up something deep for me. I live 6000 miles from GP and only catch the games on my laptop. It's great, but it's not being there. Nothing is like being there. That's why I so appreciate the articles detailing the match day trips and all the wonderful incidents that make up the football supporter experience.

Nothing is like walking into the Old Lady with your mates and feeling the anticipation rise. Anything could happen, and probably will.

What I miss most, besides the immediacy of the action and sharing that with thousands of others, are the live comments that come from the crowd. No humour is like Scouse humour. No one is as funny, sharp, insightful, and down-to-fukin-earth as a Scouser.

And there is a devilment inherent in it all. And there is an appreciation from the audience, usually a few thousand within earshot.

There is also a heartwarming sentimentality and camaraderie, a wave of feeling that reverberates around the ground. I should stop now, I'm getting a bit teary.

But that's what Everton means to me and so many of you also. COME ON YOU BLUES! This season we can do it!

Derek Thomas
46   Posted 07/06/2010 at 07:17:52

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All that touchie feelie emotional sentimentality and camaraderie sounds a bit gay to me, Albert.
Alan Kirwin
47   Posted 07/06/2010 at 10:38:54

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An unusual and oddly enlightening topic for a football fanzine site. Or is it?

Already made my views clear about the new kit. Love it. Different and quite powerful in it's own way. Complete non-issue.

As for the broader issue of sexuality in sport. Sorry, there is no issue other than ability and teamwork. The idea that being gay somehow undermines anything to do with professional sport is baloney, or indeed as Ciaran has rightly pointed out, ill-informed mendacious nonsense.

Sexual prejudice, or indeed any form or prejudice, is merely one of countless things that could theoretically impact sporting performance or teamwork or public opinion, albeit one of the less appealing things.

This is the 21st century, not Nazi Germany in 1940.
Dick Fearon
48   Posted 07/06/2010 at 11:40:10

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I will not respond further to any more attempts at humourless smart arse references to my name. Fran Mitchell is the latest smart arse to try and his/her effort, was as miserably infantile as the earlier ones.

One thing this topic has clearly established is that political correctness among Twebbers is alive and well. I agree with an earlier poster who said that Aids was now prevalent in the wider community. Is there any chance of an honest explanation of how that came about.

Kevin Gillen
49   Posted 07/06/2010 at 12:31:38

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What a person does in the privacy of their own homes with other consenting adults is not an issue for Evertonians.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
50   Posted 07/06/2010 at 12:35:43

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Dick... You really are being a dick with that last one and I think you know it full well. This topic is not about Aids, no matter how hard you have tried to make it so. Please drop it.
Dave Richman
51   Posted 07/06/2010 at 12:34:49

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Here you go Dick. Have a look at this, mate.....

Possible that someone shagged a chimp and the rest is history.

Nowt at all to do with anyone's sexuality.

I'm not gay, but have gay friends of both sexes and I couldn't care less about anyone's sexual preference, skin colour or religion.

Do the business for the Blues (or Pinks) .... that's all that matters.

Dennis Stevens
52   Posted 07/06/2010 at 20:27:37

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I think Dick's just concerned that our nickname might change from the Toffeemen to the Fudge-packers! Sorry for the flippant response but I find it hard to take such ignorance seriously, especially when it includes the assumption that all those who disagree are merely slaves to political correctness & suppressing our true opinions. I'd like to think Dick is merely wasting our time on a ridiculous wind-up, but the truth is probably a lot sadder than that.
Pat Finegan
53   Posted 07/06/2010 at 21:37:42

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Whether you think it's okay to be gay or not you should treat them like human beings.

As far as the church goes, there is nothing in the bible that says you should treat homosexuals differently. In the apostle Paul's letter to the Romans he says it is wrong. That said, Jesus associated himself with thieves, liars, adulterers, murderers, etc. And he treated those people like everyone else. The church doesn't seem to understand that.

As a Christian myself, I would support any gay person who plays for Everton. I don't support drunk-driving but I support Steven Pienaar because 1) I am in no position to judge him and 2) he plays for Everton.

We should support our club and the players and not be judgmental. Gay, straight or bi, I, for one, will support any Evertonian.
Chris Butler
54   Posted 07/06/2010 at 22:14:44

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Kevin Gillen's got it right. They can do what they want as long as they're acting within the laws of this country and not affecting anyone else. What they do in their private life doesn't affect us unless they take it on to the pitch.

I think the whole idea of gays being weak is nonsense as some of the most evil killers have been gay. Look at members of the Nazi party. We cannot catergorise people — look at Gareth Thomas — you wouldn't think he's gay would you?

But I also accept that many religious people disagree with it. I disagree with same sex adoption as I feel it means a child will be ridiculed for his or her life. I don't have a problem if people want to engage in it as long as they don't affect anyone else. You might call Dick a bigot but you'd find similar opinions in Everton's dressing room and boardroom.

The thing that annoys me the most though, as a famous Black basketballer pointed out: If someone walked down the street and called him a Nigger, they'd be a bigot... yet if they called him a puff, it would just be banter. I was thinking of putting a piece on this site about how football has been involved in racism and how it's fought against racism. It doesn't seem to me they've fought homosexual discrimination which makes the football for all a joke.

Jamie Crowley
55   Posted 07/06/2010 at 22:36:06

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For all the Catholic bashing.... from the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, Vatican website. I'd invite those of you who maintain the Catholic perspective on homosexuality is bigoted to revise your thinking. Note the section which says they are to be treated with respect and compassion.

Two things: 1. God made all men, and therefore your fellow man is to be respected. 2. Let he without sin cast the first stone

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." 141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
David Hallwood
56   Posted 07/06/2010 at 23:48:10

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Veering slightly off piste. Does anyone else think that Toffeweb is unique among football websites because of the high degree of literacy of the posters? And this particular thread is a prime example of the standards of grammar, vocabulary and it seems that everyone can use a spellchecker. It is either that or the Michael and Lyndon are ruthless censors. Or that Evertonians are a pack of computer literate University Professors. Discuss.
David Hallwood
57   Posted 08/06/2010 at 00:03:29

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And would you Adam & Eve it the last sentence has got a typo-it should read:- either Michael and Lyndon are ruthless censors, or Evertonians are a pack of computer literate University Professors. Discuss-sorry ‘bout that folks!
Brendan O'Doherty
58   Posted 08/06/2010 at 02:21:21

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Now that TW now stands for TheologyWeb, is this the best place to get a good fix of Catechism?
Pete Gunby
59   Posted 08/06/2010 at 04:07:02

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Fran (44) is on to something. Quick, someone start a rumor about Neville and Hibbo.
Pat (53).. I haven't opened a bible for a while but the punishment for a man laying with another man seems like slightly different treatment to me. Maybe something was lost in translation.

Pat Finegan
60   Posted 08/06/2010 at 05:10:39

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Pete, I'm not sure what punishment you're referring to. Homosexuality, in the Bible, is referred to as sin in the new testament in the books of Romans, First Corinthians, and First Timothy (there might be more but I know of those 3 for sure). There is no prescribed punishment. We are simply supposed to love all people including those that are sinful (which is everyone). Has anyone on not cursed? lied? gotten angry over something stupid? We've all sinned and therefore we have no right to judge others. It is God's responsibility to judge because he is the only one who is perfect enough to do so. If religious people think that they shoud treat gays differently, then they should do the same for the liars, the foul-mouthed, the bad tempered, etc. which, ironically, makes up for a large portion of the church itself.

I don't mean to be arrogant. I know some of you don't believe in the god of the Bible or in any god at all and I don't mean to shove my beliefs in your face. It is just frustrating that Christians, over the years, have construed the Bible to be a hateful book. That's not what it is at all. the central theme of the Bible is love. We've all heard of the verse, John 3:16. The verse says, to paraphrase, God loved the world to the point of being willing to be tortured and killed so that people could go to heaven.

You don't have to believe the Bible but that is what it says so don't use it as a means of justifying hatred for homosexuals.
Claire Cavendish
61   Posted 08/06/2010 at 06:23:35

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It shouldn't matter what sexuality a player is, and obviously for many of us it doesn't matter what sexuality a player is. We are just waiting for everyone else to catch up with our mainly enlightened viewpoints.

As a slight side point, I once knew an ex-professional rugby league player who said that many of the top rugby league players were gay. I have no evidence other than his word to support this, but it does make interesting food for thought, and would certainly explode the myth about all gay men being weak and effiminate.
Michael Kenrick
62   Posted 08/06/2010 at 07:43:47

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Pat... Love??? — have you tried parts of the Old Testament? Plenty of smoting, vengeance, death and the Holy Wrath of God. Something bad about the towns of Sodom and Gomorra... unnatural acts — I thought that was the basis for the religious inspired hatred of gays?

And then there's poor Onan who spilt his seed upon the ground, instantly condemning generations of young wankers to a life of sin and debauchery. The fucking Catholic Church has an awful lot to answer for... not least the utterly criminal insistence on unfettered procreation. Of course one beauty of the Bible is man can use it to justify or condemn anything on God's green earth.

And on that note, I think we have strayed far enough on this topic, thanks to Jamie Crowley posting that pompous religious tract. Thread closed.

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