I believe absolutely in the old adage of patriotism being the last refuge of a scoundrel.
To me, where you are born is total fluke, therefore a daft thing to be proud of.
To those who enjoy it — fill your boots by all means but I'm just saying for me, football, rugby, Eurovision — couldn't give a shite who wins.
However, during the first half of Uruguay-France, I will admit to a... um... well... 'feeling' that may have actually been something approaching patriotic.
Forlan had just had a near miss and immediately after we saw a close-up of him expressing his disgust.
I'm fairly sure this was 'Puta' (whore).
And Puta (or the French 'putain') has always kind of baffled me.
0-0 with a minute to go, your 30 yard free kick rattles the bar and the best you can come up with is 'whore!'?
It seems a rather... odd, weak Johnny Foreigner thing to shout to me (although I bet Ribery will be shouting something else).
What's wrong with a good old head back, hands on hips and British-style "FUCKING BASTARD" or "Maldito bastardo!!" or whatever it is in Spanish.
Or the beautifully simple "TWAT!!"
(Anyone know why 'fuck' in Spanish is 'joder' and 'fucking' is 'maldito'... or have I got that wrong?)
Anyway, I mention all this as it seems there could be a problem for England in South Africa (nb: a problem other than Carragher being slower than a dead tortoise with four broken legs).
It seems refs have been given a list of our lovely British swear words... Outrageous!
With this in mind, what do people think England players should scream to vent their anger and/or frustration?
I like "MURDOCH!!" or invented combinations like "CRACK-JAFFAS!" or "SWEAT-GASH!!"
So, although I'll be hoping Stevie G, 'Jamie' and the rest of 'the lads' make total cunts of themselves, I will support British swearing.
Undoubtedly the best in the world!
Sings: "Naaaow surrendah, naaaow surrender, naaaow surrender to....er...someone I know I'll never have to engage in an actual fight"
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1 Posted 12/06/2010 at 05:58:47
If that was your intent, this American says carry-on. It appears French history does not include England and America's helping them avoid mandatory German language lessons twice in the 20th century.
Plus, their team sucks.
2 Posted 12/06/2010 at 06:33:05
Some Middle Eastern agitator has said ( or words to this effect ) once we sort out the English speaking peoples, the Americans, British, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders(?) the rest of the world will roll over.
Well how right he is, your average European conveniently forgets...
If it wasn't for the English speaking peoples;
The Dutch would all be speaking Spanish.
The Spanish would all be speaking French.
The French would all be speaking German
And the Germans would all be speaking Russian.
With the exception of the Serb Tesla (AC power) most of the worlds inventions would not have been invented.
None of the Important Games we know today would have been thought of.
Yes there is a down side but hey no one is perfect. There are a lot of places in the world today that might be better off, in the main, if the British had never left. No? I will give you one...Zimbabwe.
So in a lot of ways British is still best ( as a concept maybe ) but I still can't get worked up about the participants of the ' Greed is Good ' EPL Turning out for Engerland.
3 Posted 12/06/2010 at 07:29:42
4 Posted 12/06/2010 at 09:03:35
Great post Eugene, had a similar conversation with the Mrs last night who for the life of her can't understand why I dislike the Engerland football team so much.
As the Afrikaans would say "jy jou span is kak".
5 Posted 12/06/2010 at 11:37:41
I'll calm down now... always disliked the French (but I'm not bitter)...
6 Posted 12/06/2010 at 12:14:45
He eventually settled on 'twit' being the most ridiculously effective insult... that causes more rage than anything a sailor could come up with.
Maybe it's the obvious patronising stupidity of it... but whenever he called someone a twit they seemed to hear something quite different...
Loved that last line Mr Ruane... A song that I've always considered faintly silly... especially as we shovelled body parts off the street.
7 Posted 12/06/2010 at 12:53:29
8 Posted 12/06/2010 at 13:24:04
9 Posted 12/06/2010 at 14:28:42
10 Posted 12/06/2010 at 15:22:59
11 Posted 12/06/2010 at 15:50:14
Surprised no one has picked up on this considering we always tell kopites to support their local team!
12 Posted 12/06/2010 at 16:02:09
What do you think this means? Because it doesn't mean that patriotism is bad, its that the 'scoundrel', whatever form he takes, once caught, exposed (basically, fucked) will appeal to anything he has in common with his accusers, usually often nationality, in a desperate attempt for understanding or leniency. Specifically, bad politicians (see George W. Bush, Benito Mussolini) can use patriotic fervour to blind people to a multitude of sins. It doesn't mean supporting your country's football team is in any way a negative thing.
"To me, where you are born is total fluke, therefore a daft thing to be proud of."
Its about belonging to something. Nations may well be fabricated concepts but they're deeply ingrained within the human psyche. Without identifying with one thing and making something else the 'other' life loses a layer of definition and meaning.
13 Posted 12/06/2010 at 16:25:14
The reason for the difference is that joder is a verb used as an assertion of displeasure at something (I played football in Spain when I was younger and whenever a player missed a chance it would be either puta or joder) and maldito is an adjective used to describe the act of love-making, or as is quite often done in Spanish something quite unrelated.......did that clear it up???
Great article by the way. COYB
14 Posted 12/06/2010 at 16:34:33
It's been said before that France has forgiven Germany for invasion, defeat, four years of Nazi occupation and various war crimes, but has never forgiven the US and UK for liberating them!
Did anyone hear Lineker's intro to the France-Uruguay game? He said that the game would be eagerly watched 'in Paris, Montevideo and Dublin!'
If Carragher gets booked for trying to cripple the other team's star player, what he ought to say is 'Curses, foiled again!'
15 Posted 12/06/2010 at 16:13:58
Some tune in to the last night of the proms, see a load of chinless inbred hoorays waving union flags and get all choked up whe Rule Britannia is played.
Others (eg: me) pray for a plane being piloted by someone who has only had a few lessons and has recently shaved off a large bushy beard to make him look more 'western'.
It's my opinion that if people generally didn't feel 'pride' or couldn't be sold the idea of pride at being born in a particular land-mass (NOT of their choosing), the world would be a much better place.
As for the interpretation of 'scoundrel', well again, as Johnson wasn't specific (and a quick look reveals there seems to be no context) we are again left to our own devices
Shaven head, heavily tattooed with Lions and bulldogs etc and he's flinging chairs and bottles outside a bar in Belgium because he's proud of being English.
Probably (for people like me who are baffled by patriotism) a better explanation comes in this quote from George Bernard Shaw.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it"
Less room for interpretation there I think.
16 Posted 12/06/2010 at 22:03:54
So, let's just be against ANY FUCKING THING that James Corden is for.
17 Posted 12/06/2010 at 22:43:07
18 Posted 12/06/2010 at 23:03:09
Pictures exist of the heads of ITV, Sky and the BBC having sex with livestock and somehow Corden has managed to get hold of them.
If that is not the case then......I give up.
19 Posted 13/06/2010 at 00:16:58
20 Posted 13/06/2010 at 08:36:46
De Gaulle rings Presdent Eisenhower in the late 50s and says that France are withdrawing from NATO, de Gaulle had just come to power and was exerting French independence. As part of the withdrawal from NATO, he demanded that all American soldiers left French soil with immediate effect.
Eisenhower simply replied "Does that include the dead ones?" History does not record De Gaulle's reply or the length of the silence.
Also for those not aware. Curry's Ireland are giving a €100 rebate when you buy a flat screen TV - payable when France get knocked out.
21 Posted 13/06/2010 at 09:16:39
I am English — always have been, always will be, this is my country. Just the same as Liverpool is my city, even though I don't live their any more. I will always support Everton because I was born there (didn't choose to be born in Liverpool, just was), and I will support England because I was born there too.
Would Evertonians complain if it became illegal to display an Everton flag in the off-season because it might incite hatred, whilst the RS are allowed to plaster their flags anywhere they want? Because that is what has happened with the English flag. Outside of major tournaments and matches the Police can stop you and make you remove those silly little flags off you car, a publican who painted the English flag on the gable end of his pub has been told to remove it, whilst less that a mile down the road there is a Portuguese club who have had their flag painted on the wall for years.
I also know a woman who was forced to remove her collection of china cows from the living room window sill because they could upset muslim residents living nearby.
Patriotism isn't being proud of your country, it's protecting your way of life.
22 Posted 13/06/2010 at 11:22:04
A view of rolling hills while eating a ploughman's lunch in the garden a country pub?
Last night of the proms?
Village fetes, cream teas?
Well, I suppose if you're one of the 37 people who live in Beaulieu or Goodwood that IS the British way of life.
However, for other 60 million, it's mind-numbing telly, Findus pancakes and shit-holes inhabited by feral psychopaths.
That what you're worried about losing?
As for your flag concerns — why do you have to wave a flag?
Why can't you just be 'proud' privately?
Why does every other cunt have to know how YOU feel?
When I'm annoyed, I don't run up and down your street, waving an "I'm annoyed flag". (Like big soft kids "Daddy look at me".)
My own theory is that life in England these days is so fucking miserable and empty that the only way people can feel good is waving a flag to say "Look everyone, I'm English and really really proud of it".
As Tony Hancock would say, 'good luck!'
23 Posted 13/06/2010 at 13:49:13
24 Posted 13/06/2010 at 14:38:19
I agree with you about The Last Night of the Proms, I also share your horror at the behaviour of the shaven headed, tattooed thugs, but I'm not sure they do that because they're 'proud to be English'. I think they do it because they're horrible, horrible people, and they'd do it anyway, for one 'reason' or another. The England flag happens to be the badge of convenience they rally behind, but that doesn't mean all England fans, flag waving or not, should be tarred with the same brush. If you got mugged by a black kid would you assume all black people were criminals?
Steve, you need to back that porcelain cow story up with something. Why would muslims care about cows?
And anyway, my England is, literally in the case of one of our opponents, cricket on the village green. It's also Chinese takeaways, an Indian wife and samosas at every opportunity and having friends of Indian, Polish, Italian and Portuguese descent, among others. The best thing about this country is the sheer range of influences from all over the world.
25 Posted 13/06/2010 at 18:27:40
However If I was mugged by thousands of black kids (which is the FAIR analogy) I might start to have thoughts in that direction (fair or not).
Your England I admit sounds very nice and populated by decent and reasonable people (like yourself).
However I believe your version only strengthens my point.
In other words (nb: although I exaggerated to make the point) I believe (sadly) that my awful version is much more representative of the lives of the majority of English people than your pleasant version.
I live in hope.
26 Posted 13/06/2010 at 21:51:15
So new thread...England, my version.
I think that we will get 50 different Alternate England's from 50 different respondents.
Ranging from a JG Ballardesque / Bladerunner dark gothic Country-nior (Marshy), all the way through to Enid Blyton (from Doddy).
Well, on your marks, get set...
27 Posted 13/06/2010 at 22:00:54
28 Posted 13/06/2010 at 22:23:14
Welcome to ToffeeWeb. Of course coloured by the fact that it is only those who feel strong enough one way or other as will write in.
And then, there's you, ya weird fucker:
"Do androids dream electric sheep" — WTF?!? Are you trying stir up the whole "Dick" thing again???
29 Posted 13/06/2010 at 23:05:08
Eugene, you talk of how depressing England is now, was it always thus, or was it once a better place, before being English became diluted and frowned upon. As for flag waving, of course you don't have to flag wave, but my point is why should an Englishman in England not be allowed to flagwave whilst a Portuguese man in England can?
Why should a Christian person in a traditionally Christian country not be allowed to wear a symbol of faith whilst Sikhs, Muslims and other religions can.
Do you see Arab countries changing their laws, and traditions, to suit the influx of westerners coming into their society? No, of course not, but in England we do everything we can to change our country to suit everyone else. Where I live you can walk around a supermarket and not hear an English word spoken, well believe me I feel that the English language is a very important part of the English way of life. When I read the court section of the newspaper it is full of immigrants getting done for driving offences, with the odd Englishman, (by which I mean someone born in England not necessarily of English heritage), and the born and bred Englishman always gets a harsher sentence than the others.
So my idea of our way of life, is one where an English person, is not passed over, is not mistreated, and is not forced into unfavourable actions, simply for the sake of positive discrimination.
30 Posted 13/06/2010 at 23:59:41
"Cows are sacred to Muslims"
Thank you Steve Pugh - the Daily Mail on legs.
England - give me a home where the bovine roam (and post) and I'll show you house full of shit.
I rest my case.
31 Posted 13/06/2010 at 23:46:34
Just what is this version, what makes YOU English, how do you see it, perceive it, this sceptre'd Isle? That so much makes you want, or want not, to support it's football team.
MK; I brought you in for 2 reasons: a) why should you get off scott free? And b) by virtue of being head of everything, keeper of the key to ToffeeWeb Towers, you could (if you so wished) set up a separate thread to hold people's views on this (should there be any that is).
As for weird, well... maybe yes, maybe no (I shade towards the stream of consiousness / idiosyncratic / rebel with out a clue side of things... what you rebelling about??... what you got??) that's in the eye of the beholder for any given value of weird, if there's an R in the month.
Anyway blame EJ, he started it.
English positives; See (listen to) Ian Drury's song "England's Glory" also "Reasons to be cheerful".
England's negatives... Lawyers, Bankers, real estate agents, reality TV... the list is almost endless and universal to most places in the world — bad things almost always are.
Disclaimer, yes I'm bored, off work and can't wait for some proper footy to start.
32 Posted 14/06/2010 at 01:02:53
33 Posted 14/06/2010 at 01:31:55
34 Posted 14/06/2010 at 03:53:26
35 Posted 14/06/2010 at 04:53:35
By point 2, you had decided to turn it into a "typical political debate" (your words).
If you want a political debate, fuck off to a political debate website. If you want to talk about football, and in particular Everton FC then stick around brother.
Reading your comments above, along with ones about china cows have cost me minutes of my life I will never get back. You are a twit! (Thanks for that one Ciarán!)
36 Posted 14/06/2010 at 04:53:37
This is my England: A tolerant (mostly) multicultural society, and for that I am deeply proud. It does sometimes upset me that traditional English/British customs or even displays of national pride are lambasted from many quarters and very rarely from the people it is supposed to be upsetting. This is more to do with, I believe, our Government's cynical attempt at setting us off against each other so that we in return run to it to sort our problems out.
I can and do understand why national pride wells up inside many people, it happens on a local level all the time were football is concerned. When the Olympics were on, how many people started shouting at the telly at sportsmen and women, competing in sports that they've never heard of and getting all excited at the prospect of winning a medal? Thousands, I am sure; all because of a need to belong. We all support our local clubs for this and other reasons.
Oh and Steve, it must have been porcelain pigs that caused the brouhaha. Apparently Allah has something against them... and quite right too, standing in an old ladies window showing of all that meat!
37 Posted 14/06/2010 at 07:41:03
Against my better judgement I was at a pub in Newcastle on Saturday for the England game. The amount of belters in there was astounding. I, born in Liverpool, am English, British and European but desperately wanted the US of A to win. Why? Tim Howard. I support Everton and therefore wanted the man from New Jersey to have a much better day than the scumbag from Huyton.
This kind of mirrors my whole attitude to sport and life in General. I like who I like because of reasons that are never based around there nationality. Give me Michael Schumacher over the incredibly dull Nigel Mansell any day. Give me the walking story that is John Daly over Nick Faldo any day.
It confuses me how Evertonians can cheer for Steven Gerrard, Jamie Carragher and Glen Johnson in an England shirt.
38 Posted 14/06/2010 at 10:52:57
We tend to support people we feel we've got something in common with. Nationality is usually the simplest thing, but I think I'm accusing you of being a cheating, fat alcoholic...
And anyway, Michael Schumacher is extremely dull, and was a rival to Damon Hill, not Nigel Mansell.
39 Posted 14/06/2010 at 11:02:15
In fact you should take half the blame - "Countries, patriotism, swearing, sounds like a typical political debate, so here we go"
James Flynn can take the other half - "Well, Eugene, I'm interpreting this, in the spirit of the World Cup, as un-Pro French"
I admit after you two got the patriotic ball rolling, I did nothing to stop it, but you have to remember I'm fiercely proud about not giving two shites about England
(sniggers, it feels like school - "SIR IT WASN'T ME THOUGH SIR HONEST T'GOD, SIR I GET BLAMED FOR EVERY'IN, ARR SIRR IT'S NOT FAIR!!")
Seriously though, I blame those Muslim cows.
40 Posted 14/06/2010 at 11:32:12
Thing is, I always enjoy Eugene's missives because for me they're always laced with a provocative cocktail of dark (make that BLACK) humour, surrealism and profound ennui at just how shit the World has become.
41 Posted 14/06/2010 at 12:09:20
42 Posted 14/06/2010 at 12:43:44
There is no such thing as British ideals... it's a collective based on mongrelism. Anybody looking for discernible English or British ideals might as well go and look for fairies at the bottom of the garden.
And the suggestion that the English get treated worse in the courts is pure and utter drivel.
43 Posted 14/06/2010 at 12:53:32
44 Posted 14/06/2010 at 13:17:35
On a side note you aren't too far wrong with the cheating and fat bits.
45 Posted 14/06/2010 at 13:25:31
However, I have heard a rumour that Elves are "goers".
46 Posted 14/06/2010 at 14:56:45
I think they're the same thing more often than not, we like them because we identify with them. While this may not be true in every case I would stand by it as a general rule.
And come on, Schumacher, seriously? He was horrible! Are there any other reasons why, other than that he was the most talented driver of his generation? (Which would make you the F1 equivalent of a Man United fan... ;-) )They were definitely rivals. I'm not a huge fan of F1, I watch it occasionally, but I'm sure I remember a real rivalry, and one year where Schumacher deliberately drove into Hill in the last race to stop him winning the Championship. (He also tried to do it to Villeneuve did he not?) I also know Hill won one World Championship, which puts him way ahead of Henman.
PS> I was actually on his side over the Monaco overtaking thing the other week, great move, sharp of thought, and dealt with ridiculously harshly.
PPS> Mansell had a world class moustache, Schumacher didn't.
47 Posted 14/06/2010 at 15:46:19
48 Posted 14/06/2010 at 16:25:50
Chewbacca was dead good in that space film wasn't he?
49 Posted 15/06/2010 at 17:39:43
Of course, we should recognize that our position is under attack from the always strong and aggressive Aussie foul mouths, the creative Canadian cursers, and of course, the Dutch.
Let's be sure to maintain this honorable position of vulgar vernacular as we always have done – practise practise practise! Remember all you mums, if you want your kids to be champs, don't settle for a mere spanking. When they wander away from the pram, tell them what a pathetic fucking little wanker they are (never too young to learn).
I've got to sign off – I just saw my son talking to our cow-worshipping muslim neighbor. I'll nip this in the bud right now. Next thing you know he'll be chatting with the pig-loving Jewish girls. If word gets out that the English kids are trying tolerance and have forgotten how to swear, well... it's over.
50 Posted 16/06/2010 at 03:48:29
I'm in Lynch's Irish Pub in Jacksonville Beach, FL, with the kids watching Celtic play some "other" SPL club like fucking Motherwell at 8 a.m. on a Saturday morning.
McGeady does something really stupid - while drifting to the middle way too often. Patrick (last name unknown, Celtic supporter) yells out, "McGeady ya fuckin muppet!!" And that was just one of 100 f-bombs launched that morning. Nevermind the American toe curling, yet European accepted "cunt" launched out at least twice as much.
My 10 year old looks at me and says, "Dad, these guys swear a lot." I turn to him, 4 beers in my system before 8:30 am, and say, "Yes son, yes they do."
You folks make Philly vernacular look docile.
Keep up the good work. I for one think it's fucking hilarious.
Eugene - as far as patriotism goes... Can you blame a guy cheering for his flag when it stands for freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
There's your softball. Bash the American.
51 Posted 16/06/2010 at 10:18:31
52 Posted 17/06/2010 at 11:23:18
53 Posted 19/06/2010 at 17:09:14
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