Red and Blue and Orange and Green?

A tremendous piece of work, sir, and many thanks for sending it in. I do hope those with any interest in the history of Everton Football Club take the time to read it.

As a Catholic Evertonian, with an Irish grandmother, I was always led to believe that Everton was a Catholic club, and to this day still believe it to some degree!

There have on many occasions been catholic priests I have spoken to who support Everton. Let's face it, the other side or whatever you may call them, and it has been said by many, appear to have sold their soul to the devil.

So, Jesus, if you're reading ToffeeWeb, how about the meek shall inherit the earth? You know... when's it our turn?

Our father who art in Goodison, give us this day a derby win. And forgive us our sins, as we laugh at the twats going bust!
Amen.

I supported Linfield, home and away, until an eye-opening incident made me pack Irish league football in. I lived in Glasgow and saw Celtic more often than Rangers. Things are changing here and sectarianism, even at international level, is slowly and thankfully dying out.

Of course, there are those who will never change and it is still there to some degree. However, I have seen the Republic of Ireland cheered to the rooftops in areas of Belfast where a few years ago it would have been dangerous to do so. Let’s leave all in the past, the dark ages are over.

Still a fine article.

My dad and one of my brothers were blue while my eldest brother was a red and that was quite common. Prior to moving to Sydney 7 years ago, the situation was pretty much the same as when I was a kid.

My two sons have each decided to support EFC and Liverpool and I can never remember any religious bigotry between the two sides. In fact, back then, the crowds were not segregated and I have been at games with well over 70,000. Both clubs quite often transferred players to each other including ’so-called’ legends like Hickson, Morrissey and Sheedy.

One time, EFC played Rangers and their fans were singing anti-Papist songs but our fans were puzzled rather than angry as it was never a problem at the football matches. Luckily, the religious bigotry crap took place away from Goodison and Anfield and I have had friends and family who have supported whoever they fancied without any bias.

I’ve always preferred Celtic and I’m not Catholic. Load of nonsense really... I mean compared to Bosnia and Russia, we don’t have that much of a problem. I wish that the goverment would scrap religious schools and ghettos and try and intergrate everyone.

The above are traitors and cowards who abandoned their heritage and sold themselves to the other blue that is right wing Toryism. I will never forget the Liverpool squad at Downing St with Mr Sun (Keegan) and Phil Thompson, Emlyn Hughes etc kissing Thatcher on the cheek at the time when she was destroying the lives of working class people in Liverpool, as well as the rest of the country... Bill Shankly would have spit in her eye, metaphorically of course.

There are many more who sold out Liverpool and profess support for the RS and I’m sure there are Tories who are also Blues (Carter), but I don't see any of them selling out the city. I will never criticise a Scouser born and bred in Liverpool who supports LFC, but who supports the Tory party and Liverpool, well that's a different matter.
Come on, let's hear it from you!!!

However I did hear a story that John Moores’s famous taxi sacking of Johnny Carey did have something to do with Carey upsetting Moores by signing too many Catholics.

Believe me, Alan, take yourself to an old firm derby and be grateful that Liverpool has moved on.

I’m Catholic and only went to Catholic schools from 1959 onwards until 1970 and there was always a split in supporters. My family are predominantly Blues though we do have a sprinkling of Reds. I believe if you speak to all Evertonians or Liverpudlians you’ll get the same story.

So was the author's piece written to prove there is no secterianism? If so, he has... but it seems a bit of a waste of time apart from info on boardroom politics.

I think the article also did the same trick with the two Sheffield clubs, although the author seemed to miss the two Bristol clubs! As I recall there was no explanation as to the "logic" being applied.

As far as I’m aware there’s no great basis for such a theory in English football — and if the evidence is flimsy for Everton & Liverpool, it seems inconceivable that there’d be a stonger case for any other clubs.

Carey and the Irish players in the 50s also added to the notion of Everton as the Catholic side, but it's all down to the fickleness of fans identifying themselves to one club. through religion. However, I do believe that Everton does have a stronger Catholic support than Liverpool but it's not religous reasons behind this, it's geographical.

Vauxhall, Everton, Bootle, Kirkdale are all traditionally Catholic areas. These are the heartland of the Everton support along with Walton.

Liverpool’s support base is traditionally more East of the northend and the south of the city which are more Anglican areas.

Yes families are split and there are different churches all around the city but I think it's more of a case geographical than religious, it just happens that religion is also geographical.

As an American who is not a life-long Everton fan but a more recent convert, I’ve taken a great interest in the historical make-up of the club. Who are we and from what root did we spring? Surely that history has some point to it, even if it no longer manifests itself?
In that vein, how is this pointless, Alan K?

I can certainly understand people’s aversion to the subject, especially when considering the effects of sectarianism in Ulster and Glasgow, but historical connections don’t vanish just because they don’t suit us or have distasteful connotations we might not want to associate with.

If anything, the article in some ways illustrates this city’s relative success in diffusing the very real and intense bigottry of yesteryear to the point that the vast majority of its residents now have little or no memory of it. This is despite the fact that as stated in the article, by the turn of the 20th century the potential for serious disharmony or even insurrection in this city was seen by many as greater than that in even Glasgow. The fact that this never manifested itself definitively in terms of the clubs’ support is something we can be thankful for and indeed highlight.

That said, it might be interesting to know if any of those labelling this as irrelevant are in the lodge ;)

The problem was our away record was not keeping up with the home results... BUT, the best football I remember played at Goodison was the season we finished FOURTH.

Catterick's team won the league but he gradually replaced flair players with hard working players. He brought in Royle and Stevens for example and Young’s days were numbered.

Personally, I don't think Everton are the Catholic team or Liverpool are the Protestant team because they are from the same origins. It's just that Everton fans tended to come from Catholic area’s around the northwest of the city centre.

There is a group on facebook called the "Everton and Celtic Brotherhood", and there is not any Everton-Rangers groups, but there is probably a Mikel Madar is the greatest striker ever on there as well!

I think it should be noted that, while there a lots of Celtic-Liverpool scarfs, they did play them four times in CL. You see a fair amount of Rangers-Liverpool scarfs and they must have been purposly made because I don’t remember the two playing each other for a long time.

I really can’t buy into the divide of clubs etc. owing in part to religious faction. Again, I could be very wrong, but for me its coinicidence only.

You could mention bullshit here but at the times, given the political stances explained, why would a Catholic club be wanting to issue a new club crest with reference to an area that is Protestant in days when divide was seemingly vast? Perhaps we were pioneers in bringing the differing groups together... doubt it's that thought out though...

As I’ve stated, a perception has always existed around religion and football in the city and I wanted to look behind the claims people made to see if there is a reasonable explanation for having them... to unearth something more substantial than: ’A feller down the pub said you could get your confession heard by priests in the Paddock in the 1960s — Everton were therefore the Catholic club’!! I’ve offered what I think might have gotten the ball rolling with these perceptions. That’s all.

I realise the subject is an emotive one, though, so it doesn’t surprise me that reaction to the paper is mixed. I must say, it’s very interesting to read the responses so far.

Do you think it would be possible if we could have a quiz and ask possibly what religion your family were and if you followed the same team as them? That way, we could get a broader idea and see if the results conform. At least for the Everton side only. Still for some it may be a tricky minefield to explore.

As an Irish Everton fan, I enjoyed reading a bit more of the club's history and of any links with Ireland as opposed to Catholicism. And have come away with a better knowledge of such things than I had previously. Personally I didn’t see how the article in any way confirms a demonstrable religious divide between the two teams, but instead lists a number of alternative political and geographical influences for people's club affiliation. Each one probably as valid as the other.

And you clearly referenced both sides contribution to secular causes. Have to say I was disappointed to see some comments describing the article as pointless/irrelevant. Haven’t enjoyed a well discussed topic since the wine appreciation discussion. Let's give credit where credit is due.

Ironically, before moving to Sydney, I managed the former City Council housing office on Everton Brow for my sins and I can confirm that most of our tenants in the high rise blocks close to Everton’s famous crest were staunch orange; indeed, Catholic families on our housing waiting list avoided those flats like the plague.

Our student tenants at the University of New South Wales where I currently work are from all over the globe, mainly South East Asia, and when they sign for their tenancies (often wearing their Chelsea and United shirts), my staff are instructed to show them the big picture of Everton Football Club which I have strategically positioned on the wall in our interview room.
KENWRIGHT OUT!!!

As one grew up and the population was shipped out to places like Kirkby the religious divide started to disipate (thankfully), until today, it's a memory rather than a daily fact of life. And thats the point.

Things move on and history is forgotten upon today's perceptions. What was real at the time is now just history and open to interpretation by those who may not have been exposed to its lessons.

My dad was both an Evertonian and Green way back in the early twenties. It's generally known that we sold Mellwood to the filth... dad, who attended SFX, told me that it had been named after two Jesuit priests: Fathers Mellor and Woodcock.

He also told me that Liverpool Scotland and Exchange was represented in Parliament up till 1921 by an Irish Nationalist - the equivalent today of Fianna Fail, I think.

Lastly, is it simply a coincidence that the filth have, as one of their dirges, the anthem of the Orange Lodge — sung to different words of course — The Sash Me Father Wore? Seems to me that there have been deeper currents flowing than the article's conclusions suggest. Perhaps I'm biased. My first football bashing was at the hands of a couple of Kopites who told me"Evertonians are too friendly with the Pope", and memories of one of the first major graffiti on the Scotty exit of the new tunnel, - "No fuckin' popery here". Anyone got answers with real info rather than "Gosh. Thank goodness Liverpool is in the vanguard of religious sanity" variety.