ToffeeWeb - Season 2009-10

Ped Pearl
1 Posted 03/08/2009 at 20:10:58

Both goal.com & uefa.com have announced our first proper signing of the summer. Big and strong and with age on his side I believe Senderos will be a great signing for us.

Lescott looks to be a cert to move down the road — so it's over to Moyes and Co now to find us the two top-drawer midfielders and full-back cover we have all been craving. COYB

Mark Greenhouse
2 Posted 03/08/2009 at 20:56:44

Apparently Senderos has signed according to the UEFA.com website - German version.

http://de.uefa.com/competitions/uefacup/news/kind=1/newsid=869143.html

From my understanding of the text no contract details have been released by Everton nor fee.

He's 24 played for Arsenal And AC Milan and Wenger rated him highly enough to pay £2.5m when he was 17 and to consider making him club captain at 21 — so he has had some impact in the past.

Sam Morrison
3 Posted 04/08/2009 at 06:28:37

The Guardian are saying Philippe Senderos has agreed to a move to Everton.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/aug/03/philippe-senderos-arsenal-everton-transfer

Matthew Lovekin
4 Posted 04/08/2009 at 11:39:18

Have seen Senderos play a number of times, and honestly, he looks absolutely terrible with more errors than a young Joseph Yobo and Titus Bramble put together.

I have a number of Arsenal friends who believe he is the worst player in the league and extremely over-rated.

He was farmed out by Arsenal on-loan because he wasn’t good enough for Arsenal, surprisingly to Milan, but they soon dropped him from the team and weren’t interested in taking up an option to sign him.

On paper, he looks to have all the attributes to be a top class defender, but unfortunately he looks shit on grass!

Please no, no, no.

Justin Widdop
5 Posted 04/08/2009 at 11:49:01

Kenwright is saying in the Echo that we have agreed a deal with the player but not with Arsenal. Still not completed yet.

I have heard on another site this morning that we are linked with Duff. No idea if true or not.

Ray Said
6 Posted 04/08/2009 at 11:47:07

I have seen Senderos play a few times and he is a good stopper who doesnt know what to do with the ball once he wins it. This is why Milan dropped him after a few games. Instead of playing the ball short to the deep lying midfielder he was playing it long-sometimes that long that it would go straight to the opposing goalie.
If he is told to concentrate on attacking the ball and winning headers and tackles with Yobo or Jags playing behind him as the covering defender then he could be a useful buy.

Justin Widdop
7 Posted 04/08/2009 at 11:54:03

Just been confirmed on the OS that we are in talks but NOTHING agreed yet.

Maybe Spurs or Man City will come in with a £10 million offer to snatch him...

Rob Murphy
8 Posted 04/08/2009 at 12:03:17

Hopefully this deal falls through, the lad is a white Titus Bramble. Nuff said.......

Matthew Tait
9 Posted 04/08/2009 at 12:03:56

Ray - a good stopper who doesn’t know what to do with the ball once he wins it? No wonder Moyes is interested, he’ll fit in perfectly with our entire back line (ok, Baines excluded)!

Dave Whitwell
10 Posted 04/08/2009 at 12:13:11

Matthew Lovekin, This is the same club that released Upson because he apparently wasn’t good enough for them, has since gone on to become a regular in the England set up. I would suggest that perhaps Wenger slight weakness is his ability to set up defenders in the right way.

Moyes gets his centre-backs in particular to just defend first and think about playing out second, hence why they look half decent. With the protection a Moyes side gets from the Midfield, I think this lad could be another great signing, having said all of that there is a certain dodgy londoner still in the market for centre backs so every chance we will get gazumped!.

Brett Bradshaw
11 Posted 04/08/2009 at 12:30:16

Senderos at the moment would make a good sqaud player. But 6m!!?

Arsenal are looking to buy S Kalou from Chelsea for that kinda money, we should offer 3m, possibly raising to 4 at a push. Simply because he is a laughing stock and they desperately want rid.

I do not believe all the hype though and like others have said, Wenger is not quite as good as Moyes defensively and I could just as easily see Senderos as first team as I could reserves; come the end of the season.

Bring him in on the cheap and use the big bucks for a decent winger!!!

Tony Marsh
12 Posted 04/08/2009 at 12:38:34

Senderos is absolute SHITE.My pal in London who is an Arsenal fan has just phoned me laughing his head off.
You Facking Mugs he just said.

Neil Vaughan
13 Posted 04/08/2009 at 12:42:00

He’s a fuckin DONKEY....!!

Please tell me it isn’t happening....Senderos in...Lescott out ...well that’s fuckin progress isn’t it.

Every pre-season gets worse and worse...thought we were suppose to want to strengthen...oh my god !!

The thought of him & Yobo togrther for four months just fills me with dread...please tell me it isn’t happening !!

Matthew Tait
14 Posted 04/08/2009 at 12:42:59

for a bit of perspective on senderos from the arsenal crowd, check out this page: http://gunnercentral.com/senderos-poised-for-6m-everton-switch/

they seem to think he still has plenty of potential and will probably do well at everton.

Although all the stories are claiming the deal is for £6m, we might get him for less. That figure was the take-up option that he had on his loan contract at Milan, there’s no guarantee we’ll pay that amount, esp as Milan didn’t want to pay it. Hopefully we get him for less, but anyway £6m is probably decent business for a player of his experience - I definitely don’t think there’s £15m worth of difference between him and Lescott..!

Neil Vaughan
15 Posted 04/08/2009 at 12:46:27

Ped Pearl...surely you’re not suggesting that Senderdog is top draw are you ??...

You’re obviously in a very HAPPY place right now !!

Mick Fleming
16 Posted 04/08/2009 at 12:49:23

I remember reading an Echo article recently quoting Sir Philip Carters excitement about Evertons transfer plans!!

http://www.evertonbanter.co.uk/2009/07/everton-fcs-transfer-plans-loo.html

I have taken the liberty of adding a few of my own options to our innovative and world beating transfer plan:

Option A - Transfer some of the children’s entertainers from the Family Enclosure to the Main Stand. Then we can double the amount of clowns that we have sat upstairs.

Option B - Transfer some of the cheese and onion pies that they sell in the food kiosk in the Family Enclosure to the Park End as since I have moved seats I can never get a decent pie at half time.

Option C – Sell Chang beer to Man City for 55 Million and get Carling or even Miller draft, either would form a great partnership with my cheese and onion pie.

Now that is exciting and if options A, B and C come off, I can’t wait for the new season!

Twitchy arse time but for gods sake, I would rather we said nothing than fill us full of the usual shite, same old same old.

Tony Williams
17 Posted 04/08/2009 at 12:50:07

Tony, we had the same embarassing feel when the less skilful Chuckle brother signed for us. he hasn’t turned out too badly has he.

Looking at his stats he played 15 games for Meeelan and scored 5 goals, not a bad return for a defender.

He does seem a little undecisive but if there is anything Moyes can do well it is making defenders better.

Chris Lawlor
18 Posted 04/08/2009 at 12:50:15

This really is Toffeemoan.com isnt it. Wait months for some news of an actaul signing and then fly off the handle when it's announced. Nowhere has it been confirmed that Lescott is going and if he does then we are in a strong position to bulk up midfield with some quality and I believe we have enough cover at the back if Senderos joins. Remember how rubbish Jags was when he first came. Calm the fuck down you lot.

Tom Bowers
19 Posted 04/08/2009 at 12:50:00

Well,the consensus is that Senderos would be a band-aid solution to the Lescott situation or would it be?
Most fans are of the opinion Senderos is crap and I tend to agree.He was a solid player 2 years ago but lost the plot somewhere.
Maybe DM can help him recover if he signs fot the Blues? Sadly though it’s a position in the team that can ill afford weakness and unless he performs well early then we could be in for a torrid time until Jags Returns

Matthew Tait
20 Posted 04/08/2009 at 13:02:02

One possibly important point - the claim in the Echo is that Senderos is not a replacement for Lescott, but he’s purely in as cover for Jags’ injury.

Now I don’t know if you believe that, but it does raise the point that, if Lescott does leave, we are still going to need additional defensive cover - Senderos isn’t the full answer.

i.e. at left back our only cover is (god forbit) Pip Neville or youngsters. With Jags out and Lescott gone our only cover for Yobo and Senderos would be Rodwell (who has of course been playing mainly in midfield lately).

So unfortunately whatever money did come from Lescott wouldn’t be able to be piled fully into a top draw winger, unless Moyes can find some good loan/bosmans as defensive cover from somewhere.

I heard Pistone is without a club, perhaps he can help? :cough:

Anthony Doran
21 Posted 04/08/2009 at 13:17:24

Cant say im in MJ Thriller mode with the news that Senderos is going to sign for us but fook it at least it isnt another media fabrication and we are on the verge of signing a player! Lets hope Moyes can do something with him and that he doeant go all Shandy on us lol

Ciarán McGlone
22 Posted 04/08/2009 at 13:28:18

I think this one should be a loan deal...6mill is a shocking price for a defender who’s known for being a liability.

We might be able to turn him around..but that’s a gamble I would only wish us to take with a loan signing.

This could end up on Davey’s ’forgetable transfers’ CV.

Jonathan Bradley
23 Posted 04/08/2009 at 13:40:34

Not sure it is six million - that was the set fee for Milan to buy him after his loan spell last year, Arsenal are clearly looking to get rid of him and he only has a year left on his contract.

Yesterday’s reports were talking about £2.5 million, which one would think to be more likely given the above. If it is the lower figure, thats not a bad deal for someone of his age and with his experience in the present market (given that the barcodes are turning down ten million for Bassong).

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=665016&sec=transfers&campaign=rss&source=soccernet&cc=5739

Tom Brown
24 Posted 04/08/2009 at 13:43:02

So Tony Marsh, you think your "pal-in-London-who-is-an-Arsenal-fan" (let’s call him "The Expert") is a better juge of central defensive talent than Moyes?

Sounds like someone we should get into the club as an advisor.

So... below is Moyes CV on purchasing central defenders on permanent contracts. Care to provide the CV from The Expert so we can show how superior it is and get him a job with the club?

Yobo c. £5m
Kroldrup c. £5m
Stubbs free
Lescott c. £3m
Jagielka c. £4m

1 failure and 4 cracking peices of business. You know this but you still have no faith that Moyes knows what he is doing?

Idiot.

Matthew Tait
25 Posted 04/08/2009 at 13:48:22

Ciaran - this is a separate dsicussion I know but to be fair, Davey’s ’forgetable transfers’ CV is pretty brief...

Compare to some of the dross our past managers have brought in, and contrast with the excellent value he has gotten on so many quality players. Sure there have been some duds - AVDM, Wright, Davies, Beattie - but overall I don’t think we can complain given the budget he has, we could be getting LOT worse. (I’m not counting the strange Koldrup saga which I think was almost certainly the result of us gambling with Champions League money that never came).

Jonathan - thanks yes I thought I had seen a figure of £2.5m, as I mentioned earlier I agree the £6m figure is just lazily being taken from the Milan loan deal. £2.5m would be an excellent deal (and supports the argument Senderos is intended as cover, not an automatic starter).

Tom Brown
26 Posted 04/08/2009 at 14:02:28

Sorry Tony, my post was a bit over the top.

I get really frustrated over all this arguing about wheter such-and-such a signing is a good idea.

Moyes has the track record to demonstrate he knows what he is doing. He knows the needs of the club even better than us. He knows the grand plan (which he can’t always share beacuse it could compromise negotiations). Why don’t we just let him get on with it?

Get angry when his proven record on signings takes a dive. Not just because of your opinion of the possible talent of a player we might sign for a guessed fee and how that fits into our guess at the grand plan.

Brett Bradshaw
27 Posted 04/08/2009 at 14:04:36

2.5m! I’d be well happy!

At the time we signed Lescott and even Jags, Senderos would have cost at LEAST the same and likely, much more!

It’s only since they came to us that they got ’good’. 2.5m is well worth a punt and I could easily see us selling him on in a couple of years for double figures.

Drogba aside, Senderos is a good defender.

Peter Griffin
28 Posted 04/08/2009 at 14:11:42

Senderos is being brought in as cover, not first choice. We have got Jags out for another couple of months and then Yobo goes to the ACON.

We won’t be paying 6 million for an out-of-favour squad player with 12 months left on his contract, more likely around 3million. He’s only 24 and rough round the edges but like others have said Moyes is just the man to improve a defender. He’s an able deputy for Lescott and Jags. Hopefully we will play a lot of games this season due to good cup runs at home and abroad and we all know are squad is too small.

If JL doesgo we will sign another CB as well as Senderos.

Queue City, Spurs......

Ciarán McGlone
29 Posted 04/08/2009 at 14:29:57

Mathew,

It’s longer than you think.

Tom Brown
30 Posted 04/08/2009 at 14:33:48

Ciaran

Yobo c. £5m
Kroldrup c. £5m
Stubbs free
Lescott c. £3m
Jagielka c. £4m

What significant Moyes central defensive signings have I missed?

Pete Toney
31 Posted 04/08/2009 at 15:02:25

I dont think the fee will be anywhere near as much as 6 million if you read Arsene Wengers comments on his bid for Bordeaux striker Marouane Chamakh. He says the 5 million he offered for Chamakh is a fair price as he is in his last 12 months of his contract so is not worth the 12 million Bordeaux want for him. So surely he cant expect us to pay 6 million for Senderos who is in the same position!

Jay Woods
32 Posted 04/08/2009 at 15:11:33

The article has just been removed from that German site, but it did say that he had left Arsenal and joined Everton, but that details of the transfer were still largely unknown at this stage.

Ciarán McGlone
33 Posted 04/08/2009 at 15:14:45

What significant Moyes central defensive signings have I missed?
------------------------

I don’t recall saying you’d missed any...nice use of the word ’significant’ by the way. Filters out anything you don’t want.

Matthew Tait
34 Posted 04/08/2009 at 15:09:22

Ciaran

Well ok if you wanted to quibble you could add a few others to the list of forgettable transfers. AJ, McFadden, a few dodgy backup keepers.

I think the general point stands though that Moyes has shown he has, generally, both an excellent eye for talent and value, and the ability to get the most out of a lot of developing players (with the possible exception of strikers).

As Tom points out, he seems (maybe unsurprisingly) to be particularly at identifying and improving defensive players. So if Moyes wants Senderos, I think we can be pretty confident he knows what he’s doing (esp at ~£2.5m and as a aquad player).

I just hope that if JL does leave, we have time to find a proper top-draw replacement (any ideas, anyone??) - a rotation of Yobo, Senderos and Rodwell for the first half of the season is a bit worrying.

Ciarán McGlone
35 Posted 04/08/2009 at 15:24:47

I would agree that he’s improved his transfer acumen Mathew...But I’d disagree with the sentiment that he’s always been good at identifying defensive players...the likes of Gardner, re-signing Pistone, Kroldrup and letting Ferrari go..somewhat prove this...

I also disagree that the re-signing of Stubbs was a good move..as, like Weir - he slowed our entire game down and was often caught out of position. And I disagree that Jagielka was a great defensive signing...as he wasn’t even signed as a defender..he was brought in as a midfielder.

As for the solution...I’d like Micah Ricards..because as you say Moyes best attribute is his ability to improve players with potential...

Tom Brown
36 Posted 04/08/2009 at 15:19:14

Actually Ciaran, I didn’t define significant. I invited you to suggest significant central defensive signings, so it is open to you to define ’significant’ any way you want. It is not some "convenient" part in a Machiavellian conspiracy.

You suggested that Moyes list of "forgettable" signings was longer than Matthew might think. This prompted me to think if I was forgeting a significant signing in central defence (as we are discussing Senderos, CD signings would seem most relevant when deciding if Moyes has a good record in this area).

So I put forward my list of significant Moyes CD signings... and it looks pretty good

Yobo c. £5m
Kroldrup c. £5m
Stubbs free
Lescott c. £3m
Jagielka c. £4m

What are the significant CD signing I have forgotten that could lead us to doubt the expertise of Moyes in this?

Ciarán McGlone
37 Posted 04/08/2009 at 15:42:05

I know you didn’t define significant Tom...the dictionary does that bit for us.

I did indeed say to Mathew that Moyes list of dodgy signings was longer than he thought...However you then added the caveats of ’central defenders’ and ’significant’.

This somewhat moves the goal posts...

And i’m not getting into an argument about Moyes’ transfer acumen...as I’ve already admitted that he’s steadily improving.

Colin Malone
38 Posted 04/08/2009 at 15:49:29

Rather have Richard Dunne than Sen dross.

Matthew Tait
39 Posted 04/08/2009 at 15:39:13

Well of course, the elephant in the room in all this is the budget Moyes has had available. Certainly we’d all like it if we could consistently sign established top draw players.

We don’t ever know our real transfer budget, but for whatever reason Moyes has decided to focus his limited resources on a few expensive players (Yakubu, Fellaini, Johnson etc) and fill the gaps as best he can. That’s meant he’s had to rely on loans and resigning old crocks for next to nothing to make up the squad - hence Gardener, Stubbs, Pistone, Ferrari. Perhaps we couldn’t afford to sign Ferrari permanently. Kroldrup appears to have been a special case, with absent champions league money the issue (/speculation).br />
Anyway, for me, assuming Senderos is genuinely there as a squad player rather than a Lescott replacement, this could mark a positive development - in that we would genuinely be building a bigger squad of solid players, without relying on those sorts of stopgap deals as much.

Tom Brown
40 Posted 04/08/2009 at 15:36:29

Gardner - Never signed on a permanent deal.

Pistone - Came on a free.

Kroldrup - I agree this was a significant signing that did not work out. Mitigated by the fact that he was sold for £5m and he only cost £5m.

Failure to sign Ferrari - You might be right but personally I have no regrets on this one. He played a part in a decent season for Roma after he went back but then... they thought so much of him.. they allowed him to leave on a free to the mighty Genoa within a couple of years. Genoa got shot after 1 year. Now in Turkey I believe. He’s 29 and his career looks like it is declining without ever having set the world on fire.

Have to agree to disagree on the Stubbs and Jagz front. I thought they were good signings.

Also have to agree to disagree on what Jagz was signed for - I believe he was signed as a CD but who knows (except Moyes). His debut was in CD as a sub for Yobo but I’m sure we can argue that one forever - so just have to agree to disagree.

I know I haven’t accounted for wages spent on these players, but even including that, I can’t see them as a major counter-argument to the genius of signing Yobo, Stubbs, Jags, Lescott, for a total of £12m.

So, I still have faith in Moyes taste in central defenders. Hope I am not dissapointed in the long term!

COYB

Anthony Doran
41 Posted 04/08/2009 at 15:58:11

ill be very upset, surprised, annoyed, pist off, perhaps even a little bit hungry if and when we sell JL and DONT take City to the cleaners in some way or another by getting a couple of players in return + cash. As said above Richard Dunne would be better than Sendros

Ciarán McGlone
42 Posted 04/08/2009 at 16:07:24

Yes,

I would certainly agree with that Mathew...In fact I’d go a bit further and state that Senderos could be a cracking signing if Moyes sorts his distribution and clangers out...However, surely in this case the sensible thing would be a loan deal.

Brett Bradshaw
43 Posted 04/08/2009 at 16:26:11

I would want to buy if the price was sub £3m. Can’t argue and even if he doesn’t get any better, his value wouldn’t go down.

Sorry to change the subject but anyone heard of the American Cody Arnoux, I read he is ’on the verge’ of signing..

Stephen Graham
44 Posted 04/08/2009 at 16:36:33

Is it just me, or does Senderos look like a double for Nostradamus "Bull" Shannon, the big feller on the 80’s American sit-com, Night Court?

Richie James
45 Posted 04/08/2009 at 16:29:38

No fee has been mentioned anywhere, yet people are already complaining.

Bolstering the first team squad with an international, one who was outstanding at the last World Cup before breaking his shoulder. A player who Ancelloti deemed good enough to take for a season - all at a time when everyone is saying ’we need signings’

Why so negative? It astounds me to read the constant volley of vitriol poured upon the club.

We are skint. We haven’t got the resource of the vast majority of our peers. Yet despite this we are consistantly envied by fans of these same clubs who are jealous of the effectiveness of our players, the manager’s dealings in the market and the manner in which the club is run.

I’d rather be in our position than that of the 15 other sides outside the Sky 4 - including the circus at Eastlands who are more likely to become the next Newcastle than the next Chelsea.

We have a defined wage structure, we’re not stretching ourselves financially to compete as was the want in the 90s, We have players who respect the manager and genuinely want to play for the club.

If indeed Lescott has asked to leave the club, should you take verbatim what the press state. Then he should be allowed to go at the right price, no point in retaining an unhappy player when we can use the proceeds to reinvest in 2 or 3 other players for Moyes to mould into the Everton way.

We’re not going to suddenly magic millions out of the air to buy an established international and Premier League defender, so on that basis Senderos would be a good signing. End of.

Matthew Tait
46 Posted 04/08/2009 at 16:44:03

Brett - re Cody Arnoux

When I saw the story on the offical site I did a little bit of looking around.

Aparently Arnoux and Peterlin share an agent, Graham Smith, who is close to Moyes and arranged trials for the two. Obviously Moyes liked what he saw.

Few people that aren’t intimate in the U.S. football scene have heard of either of them, but the word was that Arnoux probably has the more potential - he was scoring bags of goals for his college side over the last two years and was likely to be a high draft pick in the MLS next year. Instead, he’s opted to try his luck in Europe with our reserves.

Like Peterlin he’ll be on a 1 year contract initially, on low pay. The club has nothing to lose, and there’s a slight chance we unearth a gem, or at least a cheap squad player.

Brett Bradshaw
47 Posted 04/08/2009 at 17:05:29

Cheers Mathew.

I hope this doesn’t push Vaughan down the pecking order, or even out the door!!

Richard Murray
48 Posted 04/08/2009 at 18:07:07

I really can’t see the fee being six million - more like three million. Hasn’t he only got one year left on his contract for a start?

If we take everything at face value, there’s not way Moyes would spend AT LEAST 50% of his transfer budget on what is effectively cover for Jags until November. No way.
It would be madness.

Dennis Ng
49 Posted 04/08/2009 at 19:37:40

Yea, I heard 3 mill too. 6 is too much based on his performance so far. 3 mill is ok, a bit higher than fair value. I do hope we have someone else in the pipeline on transfer in or bench though.

Matthew Lovekin
50 Posted 04/08/2009 at 21:17:56

If Lescott does go, I’d like Moyes to go for Micah Richards, Gary Cahill or Michael Turner. Any of those will do until Jags comes back and Senderos as back-up for £2.5m will be ok.

Bill Goodall
51 Posted 04/08/2009 at 21:52:36

So we sell Lescott for approx £20 mil. Buy Senderos for approx £5 mil. Why is this bad?

Jason Lam
52 Posted 05/08/2009 at 03:16:11

Senderos looks the typical Moyes signing: showed potential, went downhill into obscurity, and trying to pickup career at Everton. Pienaar, Saha, Pip all over again.

Though I would rather forget our recent Arse signings, Dicky Wright and glass ankles...

Bobby Flint
53 Posted 07/08/2009 at 09:08:23

Everton confirm they are in negotiations with Senderos on Tuesday, yet still nothing has happened? WTF!

It's what we all dreaded. A worse transfer season then last year. Jo on loan is decent, as well as Mustafi and Garbutt, but who are these Americans playing in the fourth division? Not my cup of tea.

Yes, we can blame the money, but I expected different to this. If Moyes is so serious about defenders, why not Lucas Neill & Michael Ball? They are both free. Need a striker? Pantellic! Another free. Also Stephen Appiah has been a free for a whole season since leaving Fenabache. I know we are not looking for frees, but these could be reasonable outcomes. Say bye to Kenwright as well. Lousy amount of money he is contributing. Anyone get excited when we heard the rumours about a takeover?

Let's just pray Lescott doesn't leave.

Ian Lewis
54 Posted 05/08/2009 at

I hate to be a moaner — but this guy is garbage why on earth are we picking him surely we can attract something better than that? Someone said he looked like a startled rabbit in the headlights which is bang on. Stephen Hughes Mk 2.

Our highest possible league finish is realistically 4th — yet we always handicap ourselves by not having a settled/under strength side until September — frittering away points early doors.

I can only assume that the banking covenants on the season ticket advance forbid us to splash the Sky cash until it clears....