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A surefire penalty, but...

Don't get me wrong. Beggars can't be choosers, and we Everton fans receive so few penalty kick awards that I don't want to seem greedy, but can someone explain to me why the lad Micah Richards could pull on the shirt of King Louis who was marauding in on goal, and did not receive so much as a yellow card?

I am not one to wish a lad to be sent off, and am over the moon at the result. But am interested in the technicality from the referees point of view. Richards was the last man. King Louis was in on goal. A penalty was given.... but.... Kev Bracey, new york Posted 17/01/2010 at 00:48:18

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Richard Murray
1 Posted 17/01/2010 at 05:58:21

Defo should have been a yellow card.

Also want to gloat to all the MF doubters. He’s fucking, seriously top draw, amazing.

What a display.

Lyndon Lloyd
Editorial Team
2 Posted 17/01/2010 at 07:06:49

By the letter of the law (or at least the directive during whichever World Cup/ European Championship Finals FIFA it was made for), shirt-tugging is a bookable offence but I’m less concerned about that and more pleased that the actual foul was given on this occasion.

I think Andre Mariner, of whom I am usually no fan, had an excellent game and got the decision right. Saha was actually going away from goal, across the box and then out towards the right touchline, so a penalty was ample punishment in my book.

Now, if we can get penalties awarded for when players anchor Fellaini to the ground with two arms over his shoulders, I'll be even happier!

Andy Greenhalgh
3 Posted 17/01/2010 at 07:57:00

To be fair, the initial tug was outside the box!

I would like too see a midfield with Stevie P, Cahill, Fellaini and Bily with Landon with a free role behind a fit Saha.

Lee Kidd
4 Posted 17/01/2010 at 08:24:07

It would have been classed as a minor foul that was simply in the penalty area — so the referee didn’t feel the offence was bad enough to warrant a double punishment.

I thought that was great refereeing actually — a ref who punishes fouls no matter if they are in the penalty area or not. How many times do you hear the phrase "if that was anywhere else on the field"?

Chris Matheson
5 Posted 17/01/2010 at 08:35:49

I think Lee is close to the mark: you only get sent off for preventing a clear goalscoring opportunity, not for fouling in the box. The City lad did not prevent the goalscring opportunity. It might have been a red card if he had pulled Louis over with the ball at his feet.

Gavin Ramejkis
6 Posted 17/01/2010 at 09:42:36

I listened to the radio driving to the match for the line-ups and ref and shuddered when I heard it was to be Andre Mariner and his stats, which (before the game) sat at 61 yellows and 7 reds this season. Watching the game, I wondered if the FA had a word with him beforehand as he simply didn’t bother with cards when some seemed appropriate.

I was annoyed when he called back the foul when Donovan had gone one-on-one with Given as I assumed we had a good advantage but the penalty was down to the linesman (sorry I just can’t call them a ref’s assistant), the same chap gave offside a few times so it was no bias. It was Mariner’s choice to card and he chose not to.

Great game all round and I cross my fingers we can keep it up.

Nick Entwistle
7 Posted 17/01/2010 at 09:29:13

In the ’current climate’ as pundits say, it was a foul... but it wasn’t at all.

The effect of Richards actions on Louis were negligeble, so this is an example of how refs are dictated to and cannot use their common sense.

It was obviously in that case the wrong decision but what could he do?

As a footnote, if it was any other team, the player would have hit the deck feined injury, so I don’t care. And what was Louis’ reaction? He seemed aghast that it was a penalty.

Mike Allison
8 Posted 17/01/2010 at 10:10:21

Nick are you saying you don’t think it was a penalty?

From his reaction I assumed Louis didn’t realise a penalty had been given and thought the free kick had gone the other way.

Colin Potter
9 Posted 17/01/2010 at 10:05:37

I don’t like cards waved around willy nilly, I was made up to see the liesman for a change getting involved, and it was he who gave the penalty straight away, then the ref, who I thought had agood game, gave the pen.

Nick, I thought Louis reacted as if a foul had been given against him.

James Byrne
10 Posted 17/01/2010 at 10:36:38

I actually believe that Saha thought the decision was going against him from where I was sitting in the ground; his pen was well taken but overall hats off to the Ref; he had a great game and never booked anyone during the match, even though there were a couple of challenges that surprised me from both sides.

Nick Entwistle
11 Posted 17/01/2010 at 10:33:32

No I don’t think it was a foul. The penalty was given for a pull of the shirt, but the pull itself had no effect on Loius at all.

So you could say technical infingement, but certinly no foul as a fan would see it. But the ref had to do it.

Here’s an interesting talk on how the more rules we live under create a lack of wisdom and promote averageness...

http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_our_loss_of_wisdom.html

Trevor Williams
12 Posted 17/01/2010 at 11:33:44

Andy, the initial foul was outside the box; however, Saha still had the advantage... The second tug clearly made him lose that advantage so a penalty was the right decision.

Just a little note about MF showboating... They showed the replay in the ground which got cheered and if you watched him and Bellamy just after it was played, then you will see Bellamy take it in good spirit, which was later evident more on TV.

Now I am not Bellamy's biggest fan but at least he isn't such a prima donna as the others...

Trevor Williams
13 Posted 17/01/2010 at 11:37:23

Another point to mention was the assistant gave it, not the referee

Gavin Ramejkis
14 Posted 17/01/2010 at 11:41:11

Trevor, agree with you that Bellamy did take it well as Fellaini came out on top. Surprised no one also pointed out that they swapped shirts at the end of the game, Bellamy came looking for Fellaini to do so and he did without a second thought. On that note, anyone know what the white tape on both Fellaini’s shoulders and white tapes around his upper arms is all about?

Lee Smith
15 Posted 17/01/2010 at 11:39:22

Nick, as far as I am aware, you are not allowed to tug an opposing players shirt, simple. It is hard enough for the referees / linos to spot this infringement, let alone to then expect them to deem whether or not such an infringement ’had an effect’ on the offended player. Blatant stone wall penalty in my opinion and its makes a nice change to see that this kind of offence has actually been punished for once. Especially as it went FOR us for a change!!!

As for those people saying the offence started outside of the box, so what? Either the offence was not spotted until Saha was in the box, or the ref did see it but decided to play the advantage, and once Saha was inside the box and Richards STILL had hold of his shirt, he decided to blow up for the tug, which was now taking place inside the box. PENALTYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

Lee Smith
16 Posted 17/01/2010 at 11:45:46

Gavin, looked like huge nicotine patches to me! Maybe our Flemish friend has a bit of a habit?

Dave McCarten
17 Posted 17/01/2010 at 12:28:44

I thought Mariner had a good game too, usually he’s all at sea (... sorry!) and yes, the King did think the foul was against HIM.

From where I was sitting (which is right behind where the incident happened in the Park End), it was deffo a pen, he tugged his shirt OUTSIDE the box, let go then had another go INSIDE the box. Penalty all day long.

David Hallwood
18 Posted 17/01/2010 at 13:04:39

Penalty. I was in the Main Stand in line with it and we were shouted for it immendiately, but the ref wasn’t going give it at first till the linesman (OK... assistant ref for the PC brigade) gave it.

Nick Entwistle
19 Posted 17/01/2010 at 13:37:17

Lee, you’re right, it was a blatant penalty because the refs are under a directive to give it, as Lyndon said.

If that directive didn’t exist, the ref wouldn’t have blown for a foul because he’d be able to use his common sense to see no foul on Louis had been made.

Rob Sawyer
20 Posted 17/01/2010 at 14:53:50

Lee - I like the nicotene patch observation but being a pedant: Fellaini is not Flemish - he is from the French-speaking part of Belgium rather than the Flemish side. It is quite possible that one day Belgium will split into two nations aliong those lines.

Gareth Humphreys
21 Posted 17/01/2010 at 14:58:32

Foul or no foul, yellow or not, what is indusputable is that it was outside the box and as such should never have been a penalty.
Was I complaining? nope.

Dave Roberts
22 Posted 17/01/2010 at 15:47:23

Nick Entwistle,

Are you fucking serious?

I am happy to listen to any argument that it should have been a free-kick ouside the box rather than a penalty. But pulling a player back by the shirt is a bloody foul mate whether you like it or not. This is something which has crept into the game over the last 10 years or so and needs to be stamped out as does holding onto players in the box when corners or free kicks are coming in.

The footy shirt is something teams wear to differentiate themselves from each other, it is not an appendage that players can use to thwart the opposition’s play FFS!

If free-kicks and penalties were awarded more often for this kind of thing it would soon die a death and so it should.

Nick Entwistle
23 Posted 17/01/2010 at 16:08:04

He pulled the player back did he Dave?

Dave Roberts
24 Posted 17/01/2010 at 16:14:37

The fucking shirt is attached to the player!!! Pull the shirt it affects the player!!!

Jeeezzz!!!

Gavin Ramejkis
25 Posted 17/01/2010 at 17:01:07

Nick Entwistle, take a look at this, go to 5:16 to about 5:20 and you tell us whether or not he was pulled backwards

http://www.mysoccerplace.net/video/everton-vs-manchester-city-20

Dave Roberts
26 Posted 17/01/2010 at 17:24:35

Rule 12 Page 110 Fifa Handbook 2009. ’Holding’ which includes shirt pulling. It is a foul if an attempt is made by use of arms to impede a players movement or to prevent him passing (the opposing player... not the ball!). Interestingly the rule states also that if holding commences outside of the area but continues into the area then the referee must award a penalty... so it was a penalty then... and a bloody foul!!!

Nick Entwistle
27 Posted 17/01/2010 at 18:02:47

The amount of ’pull’ on Saha was negligeble and did not prevented him doing anything different with the ball had it not happened.

Dave, it was a penalty due to the rule, but rules do not allow reason to prevail. Depends if you want subjectivity, or objectivity in ref’s decisions.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Sam Morrison
28 Posted 17/01/2010 at 18:55:39

Er Nick, I’m confused. It was only a penalty due to a rule?

I guess we only won because of that rule about the team who scores more goals.

Steve Pugh
29 Posted 17/01/2010 at 19:04:44

Nick, when you are running, if someone pulls your shirt to the point that it becomes tight, as Saha’s evidently did, then it will affect your balance. Just because Saha didn’t fall over like a pansy doesn’t mean the tug wasn’t a foul. How do you know what Saha might have done if his shirt hadn’t been tugged? You don’t, neither did the ref, so he had to assume that the tug had an effect and give the penalty. It was in fact a perfect example of reason prevailing.

David Smith
30 Posted 17/01/2010 at 19:36:27

Kev, just wondering if you know of anywhere in NYC to watch the Blues. I’m moving over at the end of the month and it’d be great to watch matches in company.

Pat Finegan
31 Posted 17/01/2010 at 20:59:29

David, there is a place called Mr. Dennehy’s in NYC. I’ve never been there myself but apparently it’s an Everton pub. I think it’s in Manhattan, google it for directions.

Nick, try to run 20 yards or so, then try to run the same 20 yards when someone is pulling on your shirt. It’s different, you’ll see.

Roger Domal
32 Posted 17/01/2010 at 22:10:54

Jeez Nick...You are so wrong here it’s not even funny. I’m a referee and the call was proper and right to make. You cannot read a players mind in this situation and you have no idea whether it had an impact on the player who was being held. It’s a foul, it happened in the area, and therefore a penalty.

It was blatant, and whether it impacted the player or not, there was a loss of control brought about by a foul. Penalty.

Nick, you should admit you are wrong and get on with it. No need to agree to disagree, because you are beyond wrong.

And by the way, it should have been yellow. Not even close to being red.

Nick Entwistle
33 Posted 17/01/2010 at 22:39:19

I’ve always said the ref called it right with the way the laws are.
But if refs were allowed to interp... oh fuck this, I’ve explained enough...

Lee Smith
34 Posted 18/01/2010 at 07:32:26

Rob - I thought when we signed him I read he was fluent in Flemish?

David Smith
35 Posted 18/01/2010 at 10:10:25

Thanks Pat, I’ll have a look into that.

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