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Moyes knows he needs a trophy

I thought this interesting interview with David Moyes hits a number of the frequently divisive topics discussed on this site and is worthy of further discussion in the thread that follows below ? The Editor

David Moyes fears he will be a footnote in Everton?s history if they don?t lift a trophy during his time at Goodison Park.

The Toffees boss also claimed Wayne Rooney?s wonder goal against Arsenal was a pivotal moment in his eight-year spell at the club.

Moyes, who took over from Walter Smith in March 2002 and helped steer the club to Premier League safety, said: ?I don?t think I could be remembered for anything at the moment, because I haven?t won anything.

?I don?t have a cup in front of me. I see Howard Kendall and Joe Royle around the place and both were great managers who brought trophies to Everton.

?Hopefully the period under me has been an improvement for the club - not just the team, but the whole structure.

?I think people look at Everton and think: ?There?s a good club who haven?t spent a great deal of money in a difficult time.? Hopefully they say the manager has done it with a bit of humility and dignity, but what I want more than anything is to lift one of those silver things.?

Everton?s last trophy was the 1-0 win over Manchester United in the 1995 FA Cup under Royle, and Moyes believes two players in the current squad are the key to future success.

In Tim Cahill, the manager believes he has the man to help him see through his obsession with winning the elusive silverware.

Moyes said: ?I knew Tim would be very important to us in both boxes. When he made his debut against Manchester United, he gave people the belief maybe he will work for us and to be honest he gave me the belief as well.?

And the Scot claims Phil Neville is one of his most important signings because of his influence on and off the pitch.

He said: ?He has been inspirational with the way he speaks to players and has prevented a number of red cards, just through talking to players on the pitch.

?When I met Phil, I knew right away that he was for me and I think Phil realised then that I was probably for him because he needed someone who was going to say: ?You are going to have to work even harder and I can?t guarantee you?re even going to get into the side.?

?I think it was because of that Phil saw Everton as a challenge and he took it on and he has been an outstanding player for us. He greets any players who come in and makes them feel welcome and he cracks the funnies. He?s not only a really good captain, he?s a good social convener around the club as well.?

When Moyes looks back on his decade at the club, he believes the goal by a 16-year-old Wayne Rooney that ended Arsenal?s 30-match unbeaten run in his first full season in charge was a defining moment.

?One of my biggest memories was when Wayne scored the goal against Arsenal," he said. ?I remember the saying: ?Remember the name, remember the boy.? But for me it was when we got back in the dressing room it was the first time I really heard the Goodison crowd, because they wouldn?t leave.

?I could hear them singing on the terraces and down the streets and it made me realise something different had happened.

?We had hit a nerve and what we had to do was beat the big teams. That season we also beat Liverpool 3-0 when Andy Johnson got the goals and that was great as well.

?You have to remember how far we had to come just to catch Liverpool. We were coming from a trillion, billion years behind them to catch them, so beating them was very special.

?I remember being in the dressing room on the last day of the season and we had won and were waiting for the Liverpool result to come through.

?They lost and we qualified for the Champions League and that was a brilliant feeling ? although the lowest point of my career came in the Champions League qualifying round when we lost Dinamo Bucharest.?

Despite Everton's struggles this season ? they lie 16th with 16 points from 15 games ? Moyes refuses to blame a lack of finance.

He said: ?I find you have to win ? even at Everton, with what we?ve got, we have to believe we are the best, and I do.

?I want to make us the best that I can but disappointments come in football and it comes with all football clubs. We are going to have plenty because we are not quite at the top.

?I knew when I arrived there weren?t going to be big finances at Everton, as the club needed a period of stability.

?We have managed to loosen the restraints a little but I have always wanted to keep the best players: 'Let me build a team, keep the best players, give them the best I can, prepare them the best I can and make them feel good.'

?We have spent a little bit, but our spending has been quite tight and relatively small compared to that of the Premier League.?

Despite the limits imposed by his budget, Moyes has managed to keep Everton at the top end of the Premier League, qualifying for Europe four times during his eight years at the helm.

Yet he still believes he can achieve his ambitions at Everton.

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum ? Nothing but the best is good enough.

It is not just a motto to Moyes but the philosophy driving him towards lifting his first trophy at Everton.

Michael Kenrick     Posted 03/12/2010 at

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Michael Kenrick
1   Posted 03/12/2010 at 03:42:00

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Some interesting parts that I read as reinforcing the tougher line more demanding fans have taken with regard to things like "achievement" and "success" for his reign at Everton.

Let's start with the tag-line: he needs a trophy: I got no argument with that. For me, it reinforces the obvious requirement for success in football: finishing 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th,... commonly cited by his supporters as "success" ? just doesn't cut it. Not for me, and thankfully not for him. [Supporters, take note.]

Rooney's goal against Arsenal... pivotal? It certainly was for me. That was the last time I was at Goodison Park. At 1-1 into the last minute, I had something of a premonition that he was going to score... I loved Rooney, and I thought he was treated very badly by Moyes; I believe he was sold not just to keep the club out of bankruptcy, but to prolong the tenure of Bill Kenwright in his position of control at the club... and should never have been sold, Accordingly, I will not go back until this regime is gone. So yes, I agree: hugely pivotal.

"We were coming from a trillion, billion years behind them to catch them, so beating them was very special." ? This is where I start to diverge. "... a trillion, billion years behind" them? What total garbage. I hate exaggeration at the best of times but this is sickening. It conveys to me the severity of the inferiority complex that is the other side of Moyes's personality. It really doesn't take that much to catch any of the Sky Four. We caught Liverpool that year... we should have caught them on other occasions too ? and I believe we would if Moyes took a more positive and expansive stance when facing these teams (as he has done on far too few occasions).

Phil Neville ? no surprises there: Moyes's eyes and ears and mouth on the pitch. "I can?t guarantee you?re even going to get into the side" ? sorry, pull the other one. He is one of Moyes's favourites, guaranteed to start eve if only half-fit.

Finance: "I knew when I arrived there weren?t going to be big finances at Everton." ... "our spending has been quite tight and relatively small compared to that of the Premier League". This is the crucial thing for me, and for the many Everton fans who keep citing our lack of finance as (a) a measure of the "success" Moyes has bought, yet (b) proffering this as the perennial excuse for failing to achieve anything meaningful when the chips are really down ? the most poignant example being the 2009 FA Cup Final.

I believe Moyes accepts the fiscal constraints and knows that he needs to make it work under those constraints. Please take note, those who forever plead poverty as an acceptable apology for his limited success/continued failure [delete as appropriate].

And finally... Nil Satis Nisi Optimum. The Club motto. (I know he didn't use it here, but it is included in the article.) A good reminder for those who are keen to dismiss it and lofty aspirations it represents for our club. I believe Moyes needs to be keenly aware of this ? as do the fans who are so quick to dismiss it.

Martin Faulkner
2   Posted 03/12/2010 at 06:33:34

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What a useless twat, doesn't even know what cup we were in when we got humiliated by the mighty Dynamo Bucharest. It was the fucking Europa Cup, Davey boy, not the Champions League.
That also goes for Benfica and Sporting Lisbon as well.
Fucking Twat.
Michael Kenrick
3   Posted 03/12/2010 at 07:32:48

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You're right, Martin, it wasn't Dinamo Bucharest in the Champions League qualifiers ? it was Villarreal.

But you're wrong, Martin, it wasn't the Europa Cup... it was the Uefa Cup.

Hmmm... does that make you a fucking twat? (Just asking)
John Keating
4   Posted 03/12/2010 at 07:32:55

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I like Moyes but I think he might be better concentrating more on keeping us up this year than on silverware.

Michael, just a point on Neville. He may well be his favourite but I would suggest that we tend to do better with him on the pitch than without and, as last week showed, when he doesn't play we tend to be completely leaderless out there.

Craig Wilson
5   Posted 03/12/2010 at 08:25:55

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John 4, you're spot on ? we miss our captain when he is not on the pitch, he might not be the greatest footballer but he is very important to the team.

One of my biggest gripes at the moment is when he doesn't play is giving the armband to Mikel ? I think the armband should go to the best leader and talker not the best player. Cahill, Jags or even Distin for me for the armband in the absence of Neville.

Richard Dodd
6   Posted 03/12/2010 at 08:42:09

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Totally inspirational article that demonstrates his Everton credentials. If I ever doubted his ability to restore our fortunes, those doubts are now behind me. Well said, Davey lad!
Gavin Ramejkis
7   Posted 03/12/2010 at 09:02:14

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Doddy, the article is pure shite; he spouts the obvious, makes a big mistake (Dynamo) and reinforces that he is blatantly a shithouse when it comes to so-called superior sides in Arsenal.

Lack of self-belief or a hunger to be a better manager and beat these sides with hunger and belief, his worth is slipping rapidly and it would take a miracle to recover anything this season. Eight years plus to realise he needs a trophy, honestly?

David Thomas
8   Posted 03/12/2010 at 08:38:12

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"Rooney's goal against Arsenal... pivotal? It certainly was for me. That was the last time I was at Goodison Park." Have you really not been to Goodison for over 8 years? Also, you say you loved Rooney. If this is the case why did you not go to Goodison between November 2002 and May 2004 when he was still playing for us?
KPR Williams
9   Posted 03/12/2010 at 09:02:36

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I like Neville in the defensive midfield role. I think he marshalls the defence really well; it's a real pity about his distribution and the fact we don't have a right back of any use other than him
Alasdair Mackay
10   Posted 03/12/2010 at 09:07:44

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I'm still a Moyes fan, but this is the best side and squad we have had in years and the league is competitive enough for us to target a top four finish. (Although it may now be beyond us, it certainly wasn't at the start of play in August).

We have had a terrible start and, more significantly, an inexcusable start! No big injuries to blame and no lack of squad depth to blame. If we don't finish top 6 and have a run to the QFs of the Cup now, at the very least, this season will be a complete failure and Moyes will be squarely to blame!

The jury is out!
Stephen Kenny
11   Posted 03/12/2010 at 10:54:41

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'Moyes accepts the fiscal constraints and knows that he needs to make it work under those constraints. Please take note, those who forever plead poverty as an acceptable apology for his limited success'.

This is shite of the highest order. Lack of finances directly affects the players you can bring in and your ability to keep those with title winning potential. To dismiss this as a LEGITIMATE reason for a lack of success, relative or otherwise shows a fundemental disregard to all the contrary evidence.

Perhaps we could have fluked a cup as sides like Pompey have done, and there have been far too many pathetic defeats to pub sides in cups, But there won't be a side in the next 20-30 years who win the title with similar finances to Everton Football Club, regardless of who the manager is. I include Jose Mourinho, Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger in that.
Daniel Johnson
12   Posted 03/12/2010 at 12:09:32

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Michael Kenrick hits the nail on the head with his summary.

This article proves Moyes inferioty complex with the big teams. Especially the Liverpool comment.

FOR FUCKS SAKE a trillion billion years behind THEM. Then how far behind Chelsea, Arsenal, Man utd and any other succesful European club are we David?

The big teams are just a football team. They are just a team and so they can have off days we must always have a go at them.

This sums up Moyes approach to the big matches.
Peter Norris
13   Posted 03/12/2010 at 12:47:14

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Michael - interesting reply. If you have not been to Goodison since that day - how do you make comment on what can't see?
Mike Rourke
14   Posted 03/12/2010 at 13:00:33

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Money can be a useful thing to get what you want.

The following analogy may be of use.

Dave has been invited to a race day at Silverstone. As a quality driver and a keen competitor Dave is desperate to win the silverware.

Dave wants the new model Ferrari Tevez, it costs £25,000,000. ( Secretly Dave wouldn't mind the Lamborghini Torres but that has a reputation for being notoriously unreliable at crucial moments and for £20,000,000 frankly he expects better )

Trouble is Dave only has a £100 budget, which means all he gets is a clapped out Skoda Beckford.

Dave is therefore shit out of luck.

Money. Occasionally crucial.
Chris Sillett
15   Posted 03/12/2010 at 13:30:56

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I can't ever see us winning a trophy while Moyes is in charge. Apart from getting to the cup final, his record in knock out competitions is pretty dire.

If Moyes was ever to leave (fat chance, I know) then a manager who has a superb record in the cups is a certain Mr Martin O'Niell ? three league cup finals at Leicester and one at Villa, not bad for a man who gets so much criticism!

Martin Paice
16   Posted 03/12/2010 at 14:05:31

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The Rooney goal vs Arsenal and the 3-0 Liverpool were never the same season!
Dave Charles
17   Posted 03/12/2010 at 13:55:51

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'Moyes treated Rooney badly'. If I remember right, didn't Rooney put in a transfer request with agent Strettford pulling the strings. Maybe Moyes just stood up a little upstart from Croxteth and he (Rooney) didn't like it.
Jay Harris
18   Posted 03/12/2010 at 14:37:53

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Does it matter which match or who we played?

Very fair appraisal, Michael.

Doddy won't like me saying this but it sounds like an epitaph to me.

I also have to agree totally with Mike Rourke especially in the current "Sky" era. Money talks.

The "Sky" darlings have totally dominated the trophy winning and I think Moyes has been a nearly man on occasions but it would take a "Brian Clough" to break this monopoly without serious money and Moyesy ain't no Brian Clough.
Kunal Desai
19   Posted 03/12/2010 at 14:40:44

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Hang on a sec!!!

?One of my biggest memories was when Wayne scored the goal against Arsenal," he said. ?I remember the saying: ?Remember the name, remember the boy.?

Is Moyes trying to tell us something that we already knew, we all knew what a talent Rooney was before he was slowly brought into the first team and it was Walter Smith and Archie Knox that surely would have taken the credit for nurturing him. Moyes had been at the club for two minutes so for him to tell Evertonians what a star Rooney is going to be shows real cheek on his part. What does he take us for?

Secondly, yes there's always been a lack of finance at the club; however, it's funny that he fails realise that with the money he has had from proceeds he has not made the 'best' use off.

Fellaini ? £15M: Jury's stillout on him;
Yak ? £11.25M: One good season;
Bily ? £9M: Anonymous!
Johnson ? £8.6M: sold after two seasons.

Shame he won't admit something along the lines of "I've not perhaps made the best use of resources I've had when buying players that require greater outlay of finance".
Michael Kenrick
20   Posted 03/12/2010 at 15:24:31

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David Thomas (#8) ? I live and work mostly outside the UK, so don't have the opportunity to attend too many games. My little personal boycott of the Kenwright-Moyes regime for the crime of selling Rooney developed progressively, such that when I did have opportunities to attend, I did not take them ? more through annoyance with Moyes and his increasingly frustrating performance as manager than anything else. But it's a bit meaningless really ? I could probably only attend one or two games a season, even if I wanted to.

Peter Norris (#13) ? "what I can't see"??? More like what I can see. Many Fans in England still seem blissfully unaware that 95% of Everton games (that's entire games, not just highlights) are available overseas ? live, in full, on television, in HD, or at worst on t'interweb. This is really a complete other discussion (if you really want to have it) but trust me: I see plenty.
Michael Kenrick
21   Posted 03/12/2010 at 15:35:08

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Stephen (#11) and others re the money thing: I believe Moyes has always accepted that, when the transfer window closes, he has to make do with what he has. Moyes has done very well in general creating a squad that could challenge the top teams ? of that there should doubt or question.

Let's face it (I hate that stupid cliche!), 90% of the money-bleating is Fantasy Football (something else that I hate... for what it seems to have done to the mentality of football fans). He has assembled a good squad of players. Where he has failed is managing them. That is not down to lack of money. He has on occasion led them to great and stirring victories over these so-called superior teams... thus proven he has the players to do it and he has the ability to lead them ? if the focus and mood and god-knows-what-else is right.

That's what makes him extremely frustrating for me: he has the money he needs, he doesn't need the money you claim, and when he has that money, he wastes it ? that's his record.

Now, that record is scratched and warped and perhaps needs to be removed from the turntable...

Leon Perrin
22   Posted 03/12/2010 at 15:51:23

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This piece highlights the problem with Moyes, he's fucking slow-witted.

The likes of him, Allardyce, Bruce and countless others who've vanished into obscurity have managed to make Ian Holloway's manic observations appear Clough-like.

Moyes is your bog standard overpaid twat "middle manager", stating the bleedin obvious and listing problems as though giving solutions.

If he was working for me he'd understand the fucking difference, any arsehole can tell you why things can't be done. Its answers you're paid for Davey boy, get on with it.

Stephen Kenny
23   Posted 03/12/2010 at 18:28:48

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I agree that his time has come to an end and a lack of money is not the primary reason. However, this could be the first season anybody could genuinely say that we are actually underperforming in terms of league position?

His record with big(?) money buys isn't half as bad as some are making out. IMO, the only big buy we wil make a significant loss on will be Bily. A player worth half as much as Man City paid for their reserve LEFT BACK at a time when they were considered by many of us to be a genuine rival of ours.

Results like Bolton, Blackpool and several others this season are the result of buying £5M players as opposed to £15M players. Players like Bily etc are priced as they are because occasionally they will show that they could be a very good player and will perform to a high level. The difference between him and say Angel Di Maria is that Di Maria will perform to a high level in the majority of games. It is not just ability that you pay for when you buy a player it's consistency and potential also.

This is why the money argument is such an important one for me because I do believe he has a good eye for a player, Cloughesque maybe? Getting the best out of that player in a system that works in the PL is where he has failed.

Jon Cox
24   Posted 03/12/2010 at 18:57:36

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In my job, I got problems all the time. I don't get a week to work things out, I have to do it on the spot and think (as it were) on my feet.

Davey doesn't seem to do this and when plan "A" is going awry, can't think quickly enough to remedy what ever problem arises.

Also, if I were guilty of repeating the same mistakes over and over again, then I'm sure it wouldn't be too long before I was on the Old King Cole...

Moyes doesn't seem to learn. Doesn't become savvy, and his tactics seem at the very least, monolithic and lethargic.
Jon Cox
25   Posted 03/12/2010 at 19:14:04

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PS, I was right about Russia. I wish I was a betting man !!!
Martin Faulkner
26   Posted 03/12/2010 at 23:45:24

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Michael: Not knowing what cup you were in when being humiliated does not necessarily make you a twat in its own right, but I would say in Moyes's case it's certainly one of the many contributing factors. Along with statements like "We were coming from a trillion, billion years behind them." and "When I met Phil, I knew right away that he was for me and I think Phil realised then that I was probably for him."
Also Uefa/Europa same thing mate just different branding.
Jimmy Hacking
27   Posted 04/12/2010 at 00:51:43

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I believe this interview is hugely significant in the tenure of Moyes... "pivotal" even. Reading between the lines, something struck me about this interview, something hinted at in one or two other recent chats with the press but I think it is abundantly clear for the first time here.

The Man is worried. the man is stressed, the man is even... whisper it... panicking.

He senses the tide is turning against him, I truly believe that. The Everton supporters are just a few defeats away from anarchy, and doesn't Davey know it. I don't believe he is the sort to stick it out if the majority or supporters begin to boo his every appearance.

Not that he is a coward, not that he can't stomach a challenge, but because he will do what he feels is best for the club. I like Moyes a great deal, and it angers me when short-sighted idiots try to piss all over his Everton record. But for the first time today I realised that our dear leader is a troubled man.
Jay Harris
28   Posted 04/12/2010 at 01:36:51

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Jimmy ? that's how I read it too.

I said earlier it was like Moyes writing his epitaph.
Dennis Stevens
29   Posted 04/12/2010 at 01:37:17

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It reads rather like a man writing his own obituary. Sadly Moyes has far less to show for his time at Everton than any of us would have hoped. Unfortunately another decade & a barrowload of money wouldn't change anyhing, the man is not a winner.
Ian Smitham
30   Posted 04/12/2010 at 11:28:18

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Kunai ? Jay on another post has Fella as a replacement for Lampard. He is our best player.

AJ ? Didn't we sell him for more than we paid?

I noticed and commented on DM's body language in the dugout at the last game.

But, I also wonder how many bad buys he has made? Appreciate that this is subjective, but aside from the centre-back who played once at the loss to Villa of 4-0, I am not sure there are many more. I am still unsure of Bily, would sell JH (I assume at a profit) and after that... erm...

Sega Kana
31   Posted 04/12/2010 at 11:14:28

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Moyes is a good manager who brought stability to the club but he's definitely not a winner. We need a manager with a winning attitude... to whip this team into winners. I believe this is our strongest squad yet and needs a stronger manager to pust them to the next level...


Mark Dullahan
32   Posted 04/12/2010 at 14:15:19

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Moyes biggest fault as a manager has been, and always will be the following-

He has one formation/tactic (4-4-1-1), and he tries to adapt his players to this rather than adapt his formation/tactics to the players.

i've never loved,nor disliked the man but he's slowly draining my passion for the club with his single mindedness and inferiority complex. His comments above cement what we always believed.

NSNO? Does he think this stands for:?
Neville or
Ernie McAllister
33   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:36:47

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Jimmy Hacking ? "I like Moyes a great deal, and it angers me when short-sighted idiots try to piss all over his Everton record."

Is this the same record, that by chance is the worst in any Everton manager's career at the club?

The most ever unwanted shit records, such as record defeats ring any bell?

The full bloodied cowardice he displayed against lowly Brentford and other teams?

The same cowardice he shown almost every match this season and other seasons?

The man is shitting himself because he knows he is out of his fuckin depth, has absolutely no idea how to manage his players 1 to 1 or even as a group.

He may have assembled a good squad, but he certainly hasn't got the first clue how to manage them... tactically inept is just one of his many and varied problems.

Calling people fucking idiots, I think you need to re-read your own post before making unneeded insults.

Mike Rourke ? Calling Beckford clapped out is a bit below the belt to be honest. I am not his greatest fan yet. However, he is the only one who actually tries to get about, get into the right positions, and is never played from the start, thereby sending him a message that the manager isn't confident in him. The lad needs more matches... baring in the mind he has just stepped up from the lowly League One... the lad scored a fantastic goal today.
Mike Rourke
34   Posted 04/12/2010 at 21:55:33

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Ernie, the clapped-out comment was part of my automotive analogy, but I take your point, I probably am being way too hard on him, he is certainly a fine physical specimen unlike Saha who really is clapped-out.

Great performance by Becks today, I will naturally be baying for him to start the next game, fickle as I unashamedly am when it comes to our strikers.
Michael Kenrick
35   Posted 05/12/2010 at 03:44:05

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Martin: No, the Uefa Cup and The Europa League are not the same thing. One replaced the other. But they are clearly different competitions. You calling him a twat for getting the competition wrong... and you getting the competition wrong is the twatish bit I was referring too.
John Ford
36   Posted 05/12/2010 at 11:09:27

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Moyes's observations that he needs to win a trophy to be seen in the same light as Kendall (less so Royle) are probably right... However, if you asked those two managers if winning trophies was harder these days, I'm sure they'd confirm it is.

We'd all love to win a trophy and if Moyes goes without ever winning one, he will never be considered a great manager. However, as I keep saying, the football world Kendall inhabited is dead. Winning trophies now correlates directly with how much cash you have to spend. It's an unavoidable truism.

Moyes's comments don't 'prove' anything. What would you expect him to say? Let me put it another way. If we won the league, based on our current or similar resources, it would be the single greatest achievement by any English team manager in the modern game. No question. That's the level of achievement we are hoping for. How realistic is that? Even an FA Cup win would be something extraordinary.

Sure Moyes needs a trophy , we all fecking do. But if you're applying the same expectations that we had in the 80s when teams had a more level playing field then you are likely to be perpetually disappointed. This is why top flight football is actually complete shite. I watch the Blues cos I'm genetically coded to do so, but I don't have my head in the sand about this. We've all been shafted by Sky money, and by the huge con job that we're all part of it. So my expectations, and with it my interest in anything to do with football outside of Everton, have greatly diminished.
John Ford
37   Posted 05/12/2010 at 11:30:06

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Jimmy, you may have a point. To me, the only sane argument for Moyes leaving is that he wants to win badly and recognises that there's only so far he can go by staying in one place for a long period, despite a good record. He, or the board may feel he's losing his edge simply because of the effort taken and expectation season after season of getting us into the top tier. He may want to give it a go somewhere else.

It would be high risk for the blues to look to get a new manager in. Every team in the country has to compromise, that is compromise in comparison with the Sky four, so our frustrations about Moyes reflect other clubs frustrations too. In fact ours are nothing compared to others. The difference is our manager has performed well relative to pretty much everyone else, so it's a risky way to go. However, Moyes seems lately to perhaps be resigned to the glass ceiling.

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