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We shoulda won, yet again!

Some predictable changes from Moyes, after last week's horror result at home to West Brom. Jagielka was declared fit so Heitinga was the one to step down as Fellaini and Rodwell were paired in midfield, with Coleman back in. But he started with Saha alone upfront, and Cahill in the hole behind him, with Anichebe, Beckford and Yakubu on the bench ? along with Osman, returning from injury.

Despite a blocked Distin hoof after the kick-off, Saha got an early chance that he powered tward teh near post but Cech got down well to it, and then Pienaar won a free-kick that Baines curled in to Cech's hands. Another somewhat ragged attack quickly developed .but Baines wellied his shot over when open on the left. Early possession for Neville was poor as he did not know what to do with the ball and Rodwell was no help.

Chelsea's first decent attack came from a stupid Saha giveaway in midfield. Fellaini was just as bad on the next move, as Everton were completely failing to put a nervy Chelsea side under pressure until Pienaar lofted a ball up for Saha. But Chelsea finally got a grip of their passing after about 8 mins, and Everton's chance for an early strike was gone.

Chelsea started to push a very negative Everton side, Rodwell losing possession poorly and surrendering the first corner as the game became solidly encamped in the Everton half. Howard lost the ball and it needed a vital hack from Jagielka. Everton did win a few deep throw-ins that took forever and went nowhere.

A Route One ball to Saha could have been taken better but he lost control of it. Malouda then retaliated with a kick and a shove on Neville after his poor tackle and it was only the excessively generous sportsmanship of Neville that prevented a deserved caution or worse for the Chelsea player. On Chelsea's fourth corner, they hit the bar and failed to score from a series of chances. Neville then got booked cheaply after running in to Drogba ? a shocking piece of refereeing.

Chelsea were really not very good but Everton were giving them far too much space and respect. A good run by Coleman showed some better spirit but the ball never got through to Saha. A better move through the middle let Rodwell take a shot from distance but it was always rising. Drogba then did the splits and collapsed in a heap, possibly tearing a groin muscle.

Saha put Ivanovic under pressure and won a throw-in that finally came to Coleman after much laboured crab-passing, his shot was more like a hard cross but Cahill could not turn it in. At the other end, Kalou went close with a looping header, and Everton were lucky when more good movement by Anelka was judged offside.

Then a really typical piece of Everton play saw them finally go behind as Neville dithered pathetically as he had no outlets and then he produced the stupidest of backpasses that Anelka pushed past Howard, who then had no option but to block Anelka's path; penalty but only a yellow because Anelka ran into Howard...  so it shouldn't really have been a penalty... and perhaps Distin was back to cover... but it was just desserts for such awful play by Everton when in possession in their own half. Drogba fired home from the spot with ease.

A shockingly poor first half from both sides in truth, and of course an opportunity to go at Chelsea totally squandered by Moyes and his maddening "keep it tight" mentality.

Everton got a little bit of better possession after half-time and from a foul on Saha, a better sequence saw Rodwell pull his shot wide after a great ball in from Pienaar caused havoc. But it was all lacking real conviction. Coleman was having a difficult game down the right, with little going right for him, and Rodwell was yet to stamp any kind of authority on the game.

Come the hour, come the substitutions: Beckford on for Saha... 35 mins in so for him this week! But forced on Moyes by an injury to Saha. Beckford's first attempt was a total joke from the half-way line. At the other end, Chelsea finally started playing a bit, Drogba turning but mishittting a chance at Tim Howard.

Better play set Baines off down the left and a superb cross was met well by Rodwell but his stretching heade hit the post abd bounced along the line. Better forward play and a brilliant crossfield ball to Baines, from the cross, Coleman headed straight at Cech when the pullback was a better choice. Everton had finally woken up, and won a corner that Baines took from the right, but Jagielka's brilliant near-post flick was just high and wide.

Chelsea were on the back foot, but Ferreira came on for Bosingwa, and possession swung their way after a much better spell from Everton... sadly with still no end product. Everton defended competently enough against a generally poor Chelsea. A good move saw Pienaar feed the ball in for a chance on Cech, and Cahill's studs caught Cech just above the eye, leading to an excessive reaction by Terry and Co, and a yellow cards for Cahill, Terry and Coleman..

Ramires replaced Anelka after a 5-minute spell of treatment on the field for Cech, Pienaar swung in a soft ball that Beckford tried to clip past Cech. At the other end, Chelsea should have scored when Ferreira danced behind Pienaar and squared well for Cole who missed the ball and was then taken out by Coleman, leading to silly screams for a non-penalty. Malouda also had a shot that Howard saved.

Chelsea were applying a lot of pressure as they now felt they could get the second goal, Everton with all 11 back for cornes, unable to break when they did get the ball. But a determined attack down the left saw Baines scamper forward and cross deep for Cahill to head it back to the far post where Jermaine Beckford could not miss, powering in a great header to equalize.

Bily came on for Pienaar and Mikel came on for Sturridge. Would Everton go on to press their clear advantage now? Fellaini got into a position and took a shot that was poor. 7 added minutes gave both sides a chance to go for the win. Coleman won a good free-kick but Baines delivered it too close to Cech and Jagielka had to foul Malouda, getting Everton's fourth yellow card of the game.

Cahill won another free kick for the Vanillas as they sought to pressurize the home side with the minutes ticking away. Fellaini did brilliantly to fire across goal but no-one could make the vital final touch; Beckford again did well to turn but his shot was absolutely pathetic.

Everton attacked again, and Fellaini looked to nod the ball to Beckford but incredibly he put it the other way. Bily struggled with the ball under his feet, but he put in another great cross that was defended away. Chelsea attacked and Howard momentarily dropped the ball just before the whistle finally went, a stirring finish to what had been at times an awful game. But why oh why didn't Everton win this one???


Michael Kenrick     Posted 04/12/2010 at

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David Hallwood
1   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:02:58

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Good summing up, Michael, and I see we both share a love of typos under pressure. But the frustrating thing about this season is that there's no outstanding teams in the prem at the moment. That's why I can't understand the attitude of Saha & Yak because this was an opportunity to win something and probably for last time. All-in-all, yet another Oh Fuck! weekend...
Brian Waring
2   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:07:24

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The reason why we didn't win it, Michael, was because we were so defensive in the first half. If we had started the game with the belief we showed in the 2nd half, we would be going home with the 3 pts today.
Andy Morden
3   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:09:09

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Please, someone say if it is just me, but did the team seem lifted by Beckford coming on? Was it his enthusiams and confidence that rubs off ? the lad makes some terrible choices and errors, but keeps trying, keeps shooting and doesn't hide. Saha is a practical non-entity of an outlet at the moment. I wonder how the team must feel having to try and feed him. He pisses the fans off enough on current form.
Lee Hind
4   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:08:55

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After last week's horror show, this could have been a real kicking while we were down but credit to the boys for digging in and recovering from a nightmare individual error. Second half was much better and good news for Beckford to get on the scoresheet.

Overall, a good result.
Jamie Tulacz
5   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:15:24

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A little harsh to be honest. A point away at the Champions is a pretty good result in my book. Yes, we could have won it but to me that's more a reflection of an excellent second-half performance.

Andy ? completely agree on Beckford. He's the one striker that's actually putting in any effort at the moment. Plenty of movement and creating chances for himself. Saha doesn't look interested and should not start again for the forseeable future. Beckford lacks a bit of composure at the moment, but hopefully that will come with time.
Peter Webster
6   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:13:43

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Agreed, Andy, Saha should've stayed at home, he was woeful. We need to get shut in January IMO. Made up for Beckford and great play from the reliable Baines.

The thing I noticed most was the complete inability to retain possession in the first half. It was like they were embarrassed when on the ball. Big improvement in the second as Screech and Rodwell found their feet.

I can't understand why Malouda was still on the pitch ? you raise your hand, you go off, and he clearly slapped Neville yet didn't even get a yellow.

Better play from the Toffees though. Distin solid as a rock.

Christopher McCullough
7   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:15:08

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Accurate summary, Everton deserved to win. Should've thrown on Yakubu with Beckford. I'd like to see Coleman at right back behind Arteta. Baines is very effective from that position. Rodwell and Fellaini looked very promising if not perfect. Let's hope they can develop into one of the best central midfield partnerships in the world of football.
Brian Waring
8   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:22:48

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Beckford needs to be starting games. The sad thing is though, he will probalby find himself on the bench against Wigan.
Andrew Conroy
9   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:12:43

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For all the criticism Beckford's been getting this season, he's now scored twice as many league goals as Yak, and as for Saha..... correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't his last league goal when we beat Chelsea at home last year?

I'm certainly not suggesting that Becks is quite there yet, although I do think we look much better and more likely to score with him in the side. It's more that I'm absolutely baffled by what Moyes sees in Saha.

I share your frustrations, Michael ? on form and not reputation, this was a team that was there for a battering. But, after last week, I'll take this point.
Leon Perrin
10   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:20:10

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I'm certainly of the opinion Moyes sends them out with umpteen instructions which restricts them, then, when it's gone tits up, the players say "Bollox to all that shit" and play. It's happened too often to be coincidence. Moyes must learn this lesson because I find it upsetting.
Jamie Tulacz
11   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:27:05

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Andrew ? agree completely, and I do think that Moyes will start him next game. Saha hasn't scored in 20 games apparently!
Brian Waring
12   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:27:08

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I think that was the problem for our first half display, Andrew. Moyes went into the game looking at Chelsea's reputation, and not at their form.
Joe McMahon
13   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:29:40

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IF, and that is IF Moyes could just start with 2 strikers, maybe, just maybe we could win some of these draws? Just a thought, but I'm not on £3.5 million a year am I? It's strange that Moyes still won't start with 2 strikers, we really are stuck with the most negative manager in football history ? the overpaid twat even makes Howard Wilkinson look like a attacking Guru.
Dennis Stevens
14   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:24:34

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In theory, it's a decent result... but we're just drawing far too many games this season.
Joey Brown
15   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:30:20

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Saha out, Beckford in, with games Jack will be a world beater, and I think we will be ok for the moment. There could have been 3 red cards in the game today, 2 against us. Could have won, but I'll take us playing like we should be in the second half... could this be the spark? FINALLY?
John Ford
16   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:29:26

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Beckford made a lovely turn just after his goal and we had an easy three-on-one situation. He then blazed miles over the bar from 25 yards. He needs time on the pitch but in that moment his decision making was very poor. It needed a calm head and we'd have won the game.

Great second half though. Fellaini was the difference.
Jay Wilson
17   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:32:08

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All of this "what Moyes says" is total conjecture. You have no idea what Moyes did or didn't say. Until you actually manage to get inside the dressing room while he is doing his team talk, I would just stick to talking about the game.

I happen to think we put in a textbook away performance that was let down completely by a moment of individual madness. Moyes can't be responsible for a how a player kicks the ball... can he?

Guy Hastings
18   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:28:02

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A few points. Terrific head back across from Cahill for Beckford's goal. If he's not scoring then he's making a bloody nuisance of himself. My Chelsea mates hate him, which is always a good sign. Beckford must start for the next few games.

Coleman needs to work on his technique ? he's poor from a standing start and has a tendency to just put his head down and go, which is all very well if you're stuck between the shafts of a milkcart.

Has Fellaini got a twin? The Fella in the second half bore no comparison to the Fella in the first.

Leon Perrin
19   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:38:25

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Jay

Have you got a horse at home? A particularly high horse?
Jay Wilson
20   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:43:20

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No, I'm just sick of people making stuff up to suit their agenda.
Brian Waring
21   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:38:34

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Jay, Chelsea have been fucking woeful of late, with all and sundry having a go at them. What does Moyes do? He goes out with a safety-first mentality in the first half.

Second half, when we had a go, Chelsea were all over the place, and couldn't handle us. I just wish he would change his mind-set now and again, away from the safety-first attitude, because I reckon we would all agree, if he did, we would have won that game today.
Andrew Fair
22   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:41:49

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Beckford's still learning! He was only an RAC man up until a few years ago. We as fans need to give him a chance but Moyes as manager needs to now give hime game time. Starting with a game against Wigan.
Beckford has got us two precious points this season. Not bad for a free transfer.
Leon Perrin
23   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:44:21

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Me too, whoa there...
Jay Wilson
24   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:45:33

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My point is, how do you know he didn't send them out with those instructions and the players let him down by not carrying them out? They are all lacking a bit of confidence at the moment.
Brian Waring
25   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:45:25

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By the way Jay, I'm not making stuff up to suit my agenda. You could see the safety first and hope to nick one from Moyes in that 1st half.
Andrew Conroy
26   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:37:02

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John (#15) ? definitely. Moyes's handling of Beckford is uncannily like his handling of James Vaughan, and is producing very similar results:? massive underachievement and disappointment.

He's thrown both of them on more often than not in 'panic stations' scenarios. In the case of Vaughan, his wild-bull tendencies always meant him charging round like a maniac, and not approaching the game in a sufficiently measured way. This of course is part of the reason why he's always struggled with injuries.

In the case of Beckford, he's never got the time to ease into the pace and rhythm of a game, and feels a huge pressure to go for glory every time he gets the ball. The fact that his confidence doesn't seem to have totally wilted suggests to me that he's a blood strong character, and with a bit of subtle nurturing and a decent run, he'll find the composure that he needs.

I'm certain that there's a brilliant player here, right under our noses. But how long can the guy listen to Moyes slagging him off in public before it all gets too much for him? Jesus. Moyes brings a guy in from the lower leagues, gives him no real chance to establish himself, then singles him out as the cause of our recent struggles when he fluffs some chances. Jesus, what psychology!
Brian Waring
27   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:48:57

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Andrew, spot on mate.
John Ford
28   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:46:20

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Guy (#17) ? Spot on re Coleman. There were a number of occasions when he needed to hold and wait for support but instead he just went head down and ran into two/three players, the end result was inevitable. I love his confidence but he needs to avoid running into no-win situations. Vision is such a key quality.
Joey Brown
29   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:48:29

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Andrew,

Everyone, including Beckford, would have said he should have scored the winner at Sunderland and at LEAST one call at against West Brom. I think Beckford knew Moyes was giving him the constructive criticism he maybe needed. And I'm sure he will give him praise today.
Andy Morden
30   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:46:01

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Guy ? totally agree about Cahill, he's in top form at the minute. And yes, Coleman will hopefully mature and add a bit of nous to his undoubted energy, drive and ability.
Albert Perkins
31   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:40:29

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Chelsea were due a win and I thought we would be the one's to catch it, just our luck. But to my surprise we stood up and made a fist of it. A draw at Chelsea is good enough right now so stop the needless knocking. Some of you need to stop taking the misery pills.

Howard's penalty is typical of goalkeeper's errors in these situations. Don't just bring the forward down. Get in the way and slow the forward down and hope they miss or the defense gets back. Taking the forward out is not the professional solution to this situation. Howard was lucky not to get sent off. In fact he was suckered by Anelka who knew he had played the ball too far and the defense was coming in. If Howard had been smart he would have ostentatiously dived out of the forward's way and we would all have been smiling, especially Neville.

Beckford should have been seeing far more time on the pitch. He needs some more experience. Today will be good for him. We were all crying at his misses last week but he was getting into lots of good positions and was really unlucky not to get a couple.

Did anyone else notice that after he scored, Beckford ran to the crowd and was not mobbed by the rest of the team. Same last time he scored. Got a feeling he has not been accepted in the dressing room as well as he might. Probably a simple lad with ego and poor people skills. Neville and the other senior players need to do the family thing and include him more. Or maybe he'll be our egotistical, selfish goalscoring sensation. Hope so.

Richard Dodd
32   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:52:56

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Excellent team selection and attacking tactics see us bring back a point. Good day all-round, I would say!
John Ford
33   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:52:21

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Andrew (#25). Interesting stuff. I hope you're right as there's nothing more frustrating than strikers failing seeing better opportunities for those around them. The league is full of forwards who don't have this quality.

He appears quite outstanding at creating space to receive the ball, it's uncanny.
Andrew Conroy
34   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:54:37

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Joey (#28) ? fair fucks, I'm not saying that Beckford hasn't missed some right sitters. But that's not really the point. Saha is finished. Nearly a year without a league goal and with an attitude that's starting to make Shandy Andy look as motivated as Alan Ball tells me everything I need to know. Clearly this isn't enough for David Moyes though.

I'd hardly say that a public slagging is constructuve criticism. If it was, then why the fuck didn't Moyes do the same to Saha when he missed that sitter against Blackpool ? which, by the way, was a much easier chance than Beckford's against Sunderland. The reason he didn't is the same that we didn't beat Chelsea ? David Moyes is blinded by big reputations and can no longer see the plain and simple facts that are right in front of him. Today changes nothing. We drew in spite of David Moyes, not because of him.
Brian Lloyd
35   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:23:47

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A game we could and perhaps should have won. Fellaini and Rodwell grew in stature throughout the second half and added a drive to our game that's been missing for most of this season.

Beckford must get a run of games, only this will give him the composure his game lacks at the moment. Saha can book a saga holiday for all I care.

The team and manager deservedly got some stick last week and responded well in the second half today. The big test is how they approach Wigan next week!

Joe McMahon
36   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:57:15

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Andrew ? 25. I couldn't agree more, Moyes just has no idea how to handle people. He's an unpproachable morose negative wanker, I can't stand the man.

Do you remember his attitude when he was dithering over his £65k a week contract, which went on for months and affected everyone concerned with Everton? I just wish he never signed the bloody thing and put us all out of this one-striker, safety-first anti-football misery.

Tony Hughes
37   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:07:28

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Doddy, you have to be the most easily pleased man on earth! Or a complete piss-taker!!
Joe McMahon
38   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:07:46

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Before anyone's being too harsh on Coleman, remember he's a defender, and he's doing a damn good job in Midfield.
Paul Rimmer
39   Posted 04/12/2010 at 17:50:37

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I think Fellaini and Rodwell were rusty in the first half, Coleman was up against a proper full back and Chelsea were up for it ? that's why we struggled in the first half. Once Fellaini/Rodwell settled and Baines got further forward we were better.

Most Leeds fans will tell you that Beckford shoots on sight and is over-confident. Any criticism from Moyes is warranted given that we're in need of points ? Beckford did well when he came on and scored ? could it be that the criticism got a reaction?

Ed Staunton
40   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:05:36

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Two points: stop goin on about 2 strikers, we don't have 2 strikers in form & Cahill once again was ahead of Saha most of the time... 2: Why do we only look at the opposition's form (Chelski are in poor form) what about ours, we have been awful of late, so why shouldn't Chelski batter us? A draw is a good result if we follow up with 3 next week.
Jay Wilson
41   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:14:31

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Totally agree with both your points Ed.
John Ford
42   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:15:26

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The 4-4-2 - 4-5-1 debate is pointless. We can attack equally as well with five in the middle provided players are given a flexible role and can get in and around the box. It also means we win more of the ball in the first place.
Joey Brown
43   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:14:46

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Andrew

Fair enough about Saha needing a kick up the backside. But that didn't mean Beckford doesn't he has talent and he needs to settle down and use it better. The ability he has to make space as someone was saying is profound, he just needs to make better decisions when he has it. If Beckford had a cooler head we could have made 3-4 good chances.

Moyes is a curious case I still can't decide where I stand on him right now. I hear your criticism but I'm curious to see if things change a bit against Wigan.
James Mullarkey
44   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:18:20

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Message removed for abusive content
Joey Brown
45   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:24:32

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Side note: If Beckford's good at anything it's making headlines. He's been the main talking point for our past 3 games and he hasn't started one of them.
Al Reddish
46   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:18:09

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Saha 1 goal. Yak 1 goal. Beckford, a shit load of missed chances, but at least he gets them... and 3 goals. Play the man in form!
Joey Brown
47   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:30:00

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James calm down, he can have an opinion, who are you to say yours is any better. If you're so offended make your own website.
Paul Gladwell
48   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:29:43

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I wonder if Moyes will come out and fuel a media flogging for Neville's balls-up like he did last week over Beckford?
Jay Wilson
49   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:34:08

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Moyes's treatment of Beckford last week seems to have worked... what's the best way to respond to critisism... goals and he scored. Job done!
Andrew Conroy
50   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:27:16

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Joey (41) ? my point is that Beckford will only develop a cool head with experience, and with his manager supporting him through the tough moments. Moyes isn't doing this, and to these eyes just seems to be continuing his tradition of ruining perfectly promising strikers. Why buy the bloke and then not play to his obvious strengths?

I'm not saying that Beckford is the answer, but I am saying that Saha is not. I can't say I was stunned when Moyes started with him today, because if nothing else David Moyes is a creature of habit. Does he really think Saha will suddenly come good??

For reasons that many have outlined on this site, with what he's got at his disposal It would not be hard for this manager to have us steaming up the table. But he continues to make decisions that are outrageously daft, and persisting with Saha is just one of them.
Paul Gladwell
51   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:33:20

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Joey, cooler heads come with sharpness, sharpness comes with games. Beckford will bang those missed chances in given a run, but the public stick he recieved last week from our manager was out of order.

Like I said will he have a go out Neville, or our keeper who has cost us a good few points already this season? will he shite,but you can be sure he will take a swipe at Coleman, as he always does, I think it is something to do with the fans clamour for him.

Jon Cox
52   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:04:20

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Beckford is not an impact sub. Some players are, but some players can't quite get into the rythm of the game when comming on cold.

As someone else said, he fluffs shots and makes hastey decisions and because the adrenaline rush on entering the frey, he finds it hard and struggles to realise any composure.

Whats the betting if he starts against Wigan we will see a much more composed Beckford.

I also think it was about Fella and Rodwell today. This partnership should realy be cultivated. The first half of course may have been lousey but this may have been because the two lads were just getting to know each other on the pitch. Well worth a punt against Wigan.

If it goes well against Wigan then keep the team as is and make Arteta wait for his chance. With the form he has shown of late the suspension has probably worked in our favour. But under no circumstances should Arteta get his place back by default.

Just to say Bainsey was awesome today and was way way above Cashly Cole.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
53   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:39:59

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Listen, you can argue based on form, club status, league position, whatever... What matters most to me is how the game goes on the day, how we play, our attitude, our shape, our approach, and whether it's an earned and deserved result.

On that basis, and on that basis alone ? irrespective of form, club status, league position, etc ? that was a match that Everton should have won.

When I examine why we didn't win, one thing stands out; some call it a lack of confidence... I call it ingrained negativity because it's there week-in, week-out, it is very clearly holding us back, and I find it hugely frustrating to be honest.

We do have the best squad of players in 20 years... But we also have a hopelessly negative manager (who ironically put them together!) but who simply cannot get them playing to anything like their full potential.
Gavin Ramejkis
54   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:37:11

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Jay, maybe dropping a useless piece of fragile geriatric not-arsed French shite and playing your form striker would also have an effect but hey, the sub was made and the result came, QED?

Where is the criticism for Howard not commanding his area? Where is the criticism of Arteta not beating the first man from any set piece in an eternity? Where is the criticism of Heitinga generally looking not arsed (although out of his natural position)? Where is the criticism of Yakubu having one goal this season?

Where is the self-criticism that his constant dour defensive football isn't working anymore?

Andy Burke
55   Posted 04/12/2010 at 18:46:59

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Jo 34 - Do you know David Moyes personally then. You couldn't get me his autograph could you?
Jay Wilson
56   Posted 04/12/2010 at 19:02:11

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Different players require different types of management. He does criticize himself constantly, although it would be a bit weird for him to come out after a match and say "That Moyes is a bit of a wanker".

Also, as I recall, he did play Beckford from the start in a number of games at the start of the season, most notably Newcastle, and what happened?

He has said all along his plan was to introduce Beckford to the Premier League slowly and on the evidence of today he is slowly beginning to find his feet.

Let's not kid ourselves though, if he starts next week and is awful, do you not think the same people who are calling for his inclusion this week will be calling him not fit to burn next?
Jay Wilson
57   Posted 04/12/2010 at 19:10:36

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Michael, how on the one hand can you say we should have won and on the other say we are negative. If we should have won the game and all you are basing your theory on is how we played then surely we played well? Or have I got it wrong?
Michael Kenrick
58   Posted 04/12/2010 at 19:19:41

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Jay, watch the game again, if you can, and count how many shockingly poor totally negative decisions were made when an the Everton players had possession of the ball.

You really only need to look at one example: the passage of play (Everton in possession) that led to Neville deciding the best thing to do was to pass back to the goalie ? from the fucking half-way line! If that is not the definition of negativity, I don't know what is.

Similar not-quite-so-catastrophic decisions were occurring throughout the game and they sum up the way Moyes has set the team up to play. I can't believe anyone can watch the game and not see this horrible pattern. The point is, you play better than that ? more positively ? and you create more chances, hopefully score more goals... play with more confidence, if you like. We showed enough signs to me that the players have the ability to (in this case) beat Chelsea, but the mentality has been fatally damaged by Moyes's dour shit-headed negativity.
Gavin Ramejkis
59   Posted 04/12/2010 at 19:22:36

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Jay, as per your very simplistic views on things, the starts for Beckford seemed to be through necessity rather than choice, but given your view, how would you explain after the game Yakubu had against the RS he was dropped and replaced by Saha who stunk? Again, an easy task if you didn't watch the game would be to read the fairly close summation above; first-half overtly defensive and lacking in bite up front; half-time, one-nil down, Saha appears injured and Moyes is forced to replace him and we start to play attacking football and have a far superior second half to Chelski, so much so that they replace one of their defenders who is being ran ragged and lo and behold we get an equaliser.

All fairly straight forward stuff, even described very simplistically, but to assert given how different the side played having changed the main attacking player from one that hasn't scored for so long and get a goal from his replacement, surely you must agree the perspective of questioning why start out overtly defensive when the team had that in them?
Andrew Yates
60   Posted 04/12/2010 at 19:27:49

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When all is said and done, we got a draw, either positively or negatively against the Champions, "one of the Big Four", regardless of the fact they have been just as poor as us in recent weeks.

Personally, I'd love to see Vaughan recalled from Palace and him and Beckford thrown up front together: pace, confidence and a 'throw your bollocks on the line' approach is what we need. Would it not at least get the crowd going and behind the team generally???

If only we could come up with some obscure plan to cheer up Mr Moyes then maybe we'd all be slightly more happy.

I only have the assistance of Radio 5 Live and listening to the game today I was astounded by the change in the teams attitude second half, and let's not forget Beckford was brought on relatively early by Moyes which was shocking!

This season for me so far has been, to say the least, a bit drab, we must be the slowest team going forward? But then we smashed the red shit off the pitch....heart-attack Everton, methinks!
Paul Rimmer
61   Posted 04/12/2010 at 19:38:56

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In the second half we played well and if anything were the team creating more chances ? playing positively and going for the win even in the dying minutes. Does this not show Moyes's positivity? Surely a negative manager would have parked the bus after we scored?
Ryan Holroyd
62   Posted 04/12/2010 at 19:24:06

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Joe # 34

You say Moyes can't handle people, right?

Then how come in the summer Baines, Rodwell, Arteta, who I presume could have moved to other clubs, signed new contracts?

If he can't handle players then how come, with the 15 highest spend in transfers and the 9th highest wage bill, we have more points under him than anyone apart from Arsenal, Chelsea, Man U and Liverpool?

Or are you talking about nothing you know about?

Paul McGinty
63   Posted 04/12/2010 at 19:35:32

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How can you possibly keep count of negative versus positive decisions in a game. You have a point of view which OK I respect, but you can fit players actions into your ideas and come up with any conclusion you want.

No-one can defend Phil Neville's passback. You could however see the disaster developing: he looked at two passing options which were cut off; he could have lumped it down the line behind the fullback as he was closed down... Instead, he made a complete balls-up of a passback, which would have at least had the merit of keeping possession and allowing us to build again.

Going backwards isn't always negative if the plan is to hold the ball and do something with it. Personally, I would have preferred he played the ball into space behind Ashley Cole and may be forced a throw in, but I really don't think ingrained negativity had anything to do with the option he chose.
Talking about "ingrained negativity" seems to me like a bunch of the Matchday forum correspondents may want to consider the AWAY section in the Lower Bullens for their next visit to Goodison. They could have a go at Moyes, Saha, whomever to their hearts content.

Ernie Baywood
64   Posted 04/12/2010 at 19:44:03

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I must admit I'm warming to Beckford. Not in terms of his ability, I don't see any improvement there, but just the arrogance he has. Who else takes that shot on from about 60 yards out?!?!

Might just be what we need. No-one else seems to have that high an opinion of their ability to hit the net... and sometimes you just have to believe that you can score and the odd goal might come.

Almost reminds me of Jo. Got rave reviews from the media but was, let's face it, not much of a footballer. But he was a centre forward who didn't mind having a smack at goal and did well for us for a time.

You saw the difference with Beckford today. At one point Cahill got the ball tight on the left and for once, we had a centre forward making a run and we won a corner from the ball into him. A centre-forward making a run ? I've almost fogotten what that looks like in the Saha era.
Jeff Armstrong
65   Posted 04/12/2010 at 19:53:54

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Think this is far too deep, according to Lawro, in the Mirror today, Moyes has the support of every last one of us, and is only a couple of goals away from "overachieving" again! Wonder if some of these pricks actually do a bit of research and get a proper feel for whats going on? Then again, I don't get to much of an anti-Moyes vibe at Goodison, a bit quiet, yes, certainly no DAVY MOYES HE'S GOT RED HAIR etc chants, acorns eh....
Jay Harris
66   Posted 04/12/2010 at 19:57:08

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Breaking it down a bit.

I thought team selection was pretty good today although I would have put Beckford on to start and left Saha back home to do more trainng.

I thought the central MF pairing of Rodwell and Fellaini was excellent overall and that is something I have been banging on about for ages.

If Arteta wants to get back into this team he will have to show some form and play on the wing IMO.I would have taken Coleman off second half and brought Anichebe on for the last 30 minutes to keep Terry occupied.

On our approach I thought we took the game to them in the first 10 minutes and then Chelseas came to life a bit and pinned us back. Unlike Michael, I did not see it as negativity ? more a case of nerves.

But for another stupid mistake we would have gone in level at half-time.

Moyes obviously lifted the players during the break and we came out looking for it in the second half and once Beckford came on were very unlucky not to have taken all 3 points which I am sure we would have if Rodwell's header had gone in.

I hope the starting 11 with the exception of Beckford for Saha is what we start with against Wigan and I hope the same spirit and confidence is shown.
Julian Wait
67   Posted 04/12/2010 at 20:21:47

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@Albert Perkins #30 - Howard just ran out, stopped and stood in the way. At best it was obstruction, i.e. indirect free-kick, and even that is debatable, and certainly it was not a valid penalty. I don't see how you can blame Howard for his action at all and it wasn't ever a yellow card for either reason.
Aidan Ross
68   Posted 04/12/2010 at 20:04:08

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Thriller in Vanilla? Not quite, but that was a game we could have easily lost, the referee missed Coleman's swipe at Cole on the far post when it was 1-0, and no doubt they'd have converted the penalty?A small, and very rare slice of luck for us.

Beckford at he moment is like a kid with a new "laser" gun at Crimbo! He will have a pop at anything, but hey, he still looks more likely to hit he target than King Louis, whose crown is starting to slip!

We need enterprise against he pie eaters next week, with Beckford in the starting line-up, please, Davey.

Guy Hastings
69   Posted 04/12/2010 at 20:31:29

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Joe36 - No-one can fault Coleman's enthusiasm but if the longish term plans are for him to work the flanks then some sessions along those lines down at Finch Farm wouldn't go amiss.
Joe McMahon
70   Posted 04/12/2010 at 20:42:53

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Ryan (60). I can't be arsed, but you can't disagree that he is morose, and he doesn't know how to play strikers, it's Alien to him. Thats why we have been the only top 4 finishing team with a negative goal difference. AJ, Beattie were lost on this one up front shit.

You are happy how he pissed about for months over his £3.5 million a year contract are you? You are happy for a manager to be in year 9, and we are in the bottom half of the table, are you happy with no silverware in this 9 year reign? Are you happy to lose 2 home games already this season to promoted teams. You are happy with Brentford, Shrewsbury, Oldham etc. If you're happy with all that then you are not only easily pleased but apathetic.

Moyes is a miserable shit... end of. Only my opinion, but after following the blues since 1977, I've never felt so cheated by an Everton manager.
David Hallwood
71   Posted 04/12/2010 at 20:47:01

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Michael Kenrick (#56), I didn't see the game, but listened to it on City and Sharpy blamed the lack of movement from Saha as the reason Neville passed back. Now you described that as a definition of negativity, therefore do you think that Moyes pulls Saha to one side and tells him to stand around like a big lanky gobshite looking for a lampost to lean on?

The reason why we are where we are is because Yak & Saha are horribly out of form, and if there's any money going spare next month, a proven striker plus Donovan is a must.
Ryan Holroyd
72   Posted 04/12/2010 at 21:15:44

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Joe

I'm not happy with the things you listed or some of the other things Moyes does. However, I'm fairly happy that, despite been the 15th highest spending club since he took over, he has consistently out performed the other managers in the league apart from the so called "big 4".

Anyway, this is going some what off your original point that Moyes can't handle players yet the majority of the current players have been with the manager for a long time.

You have never felt so cheated by an Everton manager? I take it you were asleep under Mike Walker, Colin Harvey, Gordon Lee and Walter Smith then?

For me, he deserves his contract based on the above stats, for bringing together a more valuable squad than before he came and for giving us European football for many seasons.
Brian Denton
73   Posted 04/12/2010 at 21:30:57

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Joe (post #69) Norwich came 4th with a negative goal difference in the early years of the Premiership. We are not the only ones!
John Ford
74   Posted 04/12/2010 at 21:34:31

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Ernie (#64) ? That shot from Beckford could have cost us the win. He'd turned the defender expertly, got half a yard and had created a three on one with Fellaini and Pienaar to hid left with only one defender remaining ? a three on one! I can accept given the circumstances that he was headstrong, and was probably told to go and get amongst them, but if only, if only he had just seen what was around him.
Joey Brown
75   Posted 04/12/2010 at 21:54:58

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In the match thread today there were a lot of people harping on our moderator Michael Kenrick by saying he should be grateful for a point at the Bridge and ignore the fact that we were on top for the last 10 minutes of the game.

Though I don't share Michael's loathing of Mr Moyes, I think he has a valuable point. The main problem of this team is they do not look to be positive when attacking. Of course when being battered, a team is going to defend but that wasn't the problem. Why we didn't win was because in the opponent's box most of our players looked to keep possession than score.

The perfect example is when the ball was hit in the air to Fellaini in the end and everyone including the commentators thought he would nod it down for Beckford but instead he took it down with his back to goal. Why? This may be strictly down to management. The players are drilled to keep the ball and defend and not instructed to take calculated risks. If this team is ever going to compete we need to try score.

8 draws too many if you ask me.

David Thomas
76   Posted 04/12/2010 at 21:45:34

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I have just got back from the match and I thought the team played well, especially in the second half with Distin, Baines and Pienaar outstanding. The team got a massive round of applause from the away fans at the end of the game and walking out the ground the general reaction seemed to be that the team played well.

Then you come on here and there is more or less 70 odd posts of negativity and instead of highlighting the good things the players did all people seem to want to do is mention the one or two negative aspects.

Ian Edwards
77   Posted 04/12/2010 at 23:17:15

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Michael is spot on. Moyes's tactics are negative. Always have been and always will be. It's a fact and an embarrasing one for Moyes that he has never won an away game at one of the so-called big Sky Four... and that's nearly NINE years. I suspect this is due to his"park the bus" mentality until we are losing then he releases the handbrake slightly and when it is too late.

Today was Moyes's 400th game in charge. I wish it was his last.
Jackie Barry
78   Posted 04/12/2010 at 23:17:58

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I really hope that Moyes realises that Everton have the potential for something special with Fellaini and Rodwell. Seriously these two could form an awesome midfield engine. Our only problem is Moyes, he seems to miss the obvious quite a bit. Alsio needs to keep playing Beckford, the lad can make it in the EPL.
Ian Smitham
79   Posted 04/12/2010 at 23:59:20

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Michael, Sorry to be pedantic, just seen that one contribution has been removed on the basis of abuse.

As always, your trainset, from wherever you are, but just so as I understand the ground rules can you let me know your thoughts about contributions 13 and 36 on this thread and also can you give us the confidence that the retaining of those contributions has nothing to do with the sympathy towards your own views.

For the contributors benefit I thought I would add that only a few weeks ago we were having a go at the team for trying to walk or pass the ball in. Finally, I wondered if anyone has stats on how many Managers (except the Sky 4's) have won anything since, well, whenever you want. I know, I know Harry at Portsmouth, but try to ignore that as it has parrallels with Leeds and they are both in a mess that we have avoided, but Blue Bill's management of the Business is a different subject.
Cheers ? but do have a look at 13 and 36 above.
David Thomas
80   Posted 05/12/2010 at 00:44:11

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Ian (#78),

From Moyes's first full season until the end of last season there have been 24 domestic honours that he could have won. Out of those 24 honours, 21 of them have been won by either Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea. The 4 clubs who have been able to spend considerable sums of money on improving their squads whilst Moyes has had to work miracles with a limited budget.

Of the other 3 trophies that could have been won, 2 of the 3 winners are now playing Championship football.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
81   Posted 05/12/2010 at 00:37:26

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Ian (#78):

#13: Comment on the game, the way it's played and the mind-numbing negativity of the manager. If you think that's abusive to Everton fans or objectionable in any way, please explain how?

#36: Again, a comment about the manager and the dreadful anti-football he has us play. I don't go with calling him a wanker per se but quite obviously some fans do think he is that bad...

The comment that was removed was directly abusive. As it says in our Conditions of Use, comments about the game, the manager, the players, the club, etc are all fair game (unless they cross a pretty obvious line). Abuse of fellow Evertonians via this website is not acceptable.

I would question you more for going down this path. Do you want these comments removed because YOU disagree with them?

Let's get this straight: it's not the viewpoint that matters to me in this regard: pro-Moyes, anti-Moyes... if you open your eyes just a little, you might just figure out that we get posts that are critical or constructive or whatever from both factions and all in-between. What we don't accept is abuse, be that from pro-Moyes or anti-Moyes, or anything in-between...
Ed Staunton
82   Posted 05/12/2010 at 00:47:44

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Joey (#75) ? I too believe we need a change but how can you blame Moyes for Fellaini not heading the ball down? Do you really think the players don't make their own decisions?
Ian Smitham
83   Posted 05/12/2010 at 01:06:22

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Michael, Thanks for your prompt response. Also the clarity. Whether we or anyone else agrees with the subject matter, I believe that the site its self is undermined by the comments that I referred to and as a fantastic source of reasoned balanced reference for all Evertonians, I simply wanted to see what the parameters are and how Joe's comments are interpretted. Thanks again.
Albert Perkins
84   Posted 05/12/2010 at 00:52:02

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Julian Wait (#66).
You are probably right about that particular situation with the penalty today. It's just a bugbare of mine that keepers stupidly bring down forwards and risk getting sent off and give away penalties when they could be a bit smarter.

You are completely right about the obstruction rule which has unfortunately been forgotten by the refs. I am constantly frustrated when players obviously obstruct others and are not called up for an indirect.

If the old obstruction rule was followed today I think it would add to the excitement and favour the attacker.
Ian Smitham
85   Posted 05/12/2010 at 01:16:16

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Re footballing matters, I had a discussion with my lad today and we agreed that the team was possibly our best. That lead me to rant that some (wholesale) change is needed in January.

Personally, i say give Pienaar what he wants. Its below that of both Billy and JH who for what ever reason have not worked out. Sell both and ofset one loss against a gain on JH. I would also sell Jags if the Arse make any sort of inflated offer (£10M+) For me also i would sell the Spaniard but only for alot-ow much -dont know. Clear out a few more, Victor, James, Louis and we will have a few quids to spend. Yak? Don't know.

That is Mr Moyes dilemna, we can make statements like mine above but his job rests on it.

Lastly, of those I would bin, how many started today?

Howard
Cap PIP XXXX Distin Baines
Jack Fella
XXXX Timmy Pienaar
xxxx

Someone better qualified than me can sort the xxxx


Ciarán McGlone
86   Posted 05/12/2010 at 03:12:34

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We shoulda won?

Dear god.

Good result... I'll eat a hat over that, but they were head and shoulders over us.
Paul Gladwell
87   Posted 05/12/2010 at 09:05:19

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Ciaran, bullshit, not in the second half mate, did you go or see the game to give this shout?
Gavin Ramejkis
88   Posted 05/12/2010 at 09:54:05

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Agree Paul, Chelski were on the ropes like a punch drunk fighter in most of the second half and but for some poor final decisions we should have scored at least another. The point of the article is more a what if we started a game like that and played it that way for 90 mins plus stoppages?
Paul Gladwell
89   Posted 05/12/2010 at 10:43:29

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It's developing into a pattern, Gavin. Every game he starts all negative then ten minutes into the second half come subs and all-out attack.
Guy Hastings
90   Posted 05/12/2010 at 12:15:55

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Michael (#80) ? 'wanker' isn't 'directly abusive' in this context? It most certainly is. Casual or accidental it is not.
Nelaj Behajiha
91   Posted 05/12/2010 at 14:09:49

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We shouldn't have won, we got a draw, which is a very good result; stop complaining.
Joe McMahon
92   Posted 05/12/2010 at 14:21:59

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Ryan, we'll have to agree to disagree. None of the managers you've mentioned were on a 5 year deal of 3.5 million a year, or were at the club for 9 years. Nine years is a long time for any manger to be at a Premier League club with not one away win at any Sky 4 club.
Steve Harris
93   Posted 05/12/2010 at 14:20:39

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Does anyone else think that the reason we played better and more purposely in the second half was only because we`d conceded that dreadful goal just before half time? If that hadn't've happened, Moyes would've just told them to hold on for a 0-0. He always waits till we've gone behind before he changes anything and even then he still waits an age to do it.
Kunal Desai
94   Posted 05/12/2010 at 14:31:48

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I got shot down on the matchday forum about bringing up when was the last time we won away at the 'so called' Big 4. We know who the so-called Big 4 are over the Premier League years and that does not include Man City.

Brian Lawler responded by saying Spurs had not won away in 69 years to any of those 4. So what?! Harry Redknapp broke this record in two seasons.

9 seasons and counting for Moyes, he's still nowhere near to getting us that victory.

Jamie Tulacz
95   Posted 05/12/2010 at 15:23:04

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Kunai ? 5 straight draws at Stamford Bridge, not bad at all in my book. Also very unlucky not to beat Arsenal away last season and beat Man City who would be in the current 'Big 4' for me.
Mike Elbey
96   Posted 05/12/2010 at 15:24:51

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Two things to come out of today for me:-

1. Saha should never start again ? he offers nothing ? he makes no runs, he does not hold the ball up and he does not score. At the moment, we look a more threatening team with Beckford on the pitch. He is not the best and his decision-making is dreadfull but he creates chances which the other strikers do not at the moment.

2. Most importantly, I thought Fellaini and Rodwell looked a real good partnership in central midfield, getting better and better as the game went on. We at last had movement and purpose from the middle of the pitch as opposed to Heitinga running round the centre circle with his World Cup LOSERS medal on and Mikel just running across the pitch. We finally had two centre-mids that have the youthful energy to both support the attack and defence without compromise to the team.

Please Moyes, give these two a sustained run in centre-mid. When Arteta returns, put him on the right side of midfield ? his form does not warrant him walking back into the team in his favoured position and playing him there would give us a threat down the right-hand side that we haven't had since... er, Arteta was on the right (save a dozen games when we had Donovan last year).

Come on, Moyes, please grow some before it's too late....

Kunal Desai
97   Posted 05/12/2010 at 15:30:52

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Jamie, I see where your coming from, but if's and but's are not facts at the end of the day. The fact remains we have not won at Man.U, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool.
Joe Royle Managed to beat both Arsenal at Highbury and Liverpool at Anfield in his first full season. Moyes will never be brave enough to have a go.
Brian Lawlor
98   Posted 05/12/2010 at 15:35:32

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Kunai - I said 69 attempts not years!! The fact that you think I said years and that years would have been possible perhaps gives us a glimpse of how long you've been following football. You know 'the top 4' hasn't been so forever!!

Our Top 4 record: Last season, we drew at Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea. At home, we beat Man Utd and Chelsea. No-one can deny yesterday as a great result. Only the anti-Moyes brigade can complain about yesterday.

Michael Kenrick
99   Posted 05/12/2010 at 15:54:51

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So what are you saying, Brian? That a draw was good enough? One point instead of three? We had the clear and present opportunity to score more goals than them, and I remain convinced that, with more positive inspiration from the manager, instead of abject negativity, we would have won. And a win would have been a far far better result than a draw.

This idea of a draw being a good result and at least we didn't lose is dinosaur thinking. A draw means a loss of 2 points. It may have been fine in the Good Old Days, but now it's about WINNING and you need a positive winning mentality to increase your chances of winning. It's at that point where Moyes clearly comes up short.
Kunal Desai
100   Posted 05/12/2010 at 16:29:42

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Brian ? let's not be sarcastic here. Fine, it's 69 ATTEMPTS ? the way we're going, it may be 69 years under this current regime.
And where did we draw against Liverpool last season??? I could say this suggests how much you know of one season but I won't resort to pettiness against fellow Evertonians.
Anthony Lamb
101   Posted 05/12/2010 at 16:44:40

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Michael, I did not see the game but listened to it on local radio (for my sins!). But there was one very interesting point made regarding the Neville back pass and your comments about it being an illustration of Everton's negativity.

Graham Sharpe, who knows a thing or two about centre-forward play was (surprisingly for the usual non-committal local media gang) scathing about Saha's contribution (or lack of) not only to this incident but to his time on the pitch. Sharpe was pointing out the need for centre-forwards to work their socks off, making runs appropriately to enable midfield players and defenders to see a pass where none previously existed.

He was really scathing about Saha which as I said was surprising for any media pundit. I have long felt that this guy has gotten away with murder for far too long. Personal/character defects have masqueraded as "unlucky with injuries" labels covering a multitude of professional sins. It IS indeed a pity because he has been blessed with abilities as a footballer but sadly not the character to apply them (certainly not at this stage of a declining career).

It IS time for Mr Moyes to be brave and give Beckford a consistent run in the team to see if he can develop the composure, and decision-making abilities; the alertness and the link-up play with others; the speed of thought and confidence to lead the line with determination and controlled aggression that will potentially bring something to the focal point of Everton's attack.

The least said about Saha from hereon in the better but if Mr Moyes continues with him (when he "recovers" from yet another "injury") then for me it will be a definite case of the least said about the manager the better!!

Brian Lawlor
102   Posted 05/12/2010 at 17:07:50

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Michael ? I am saying it was good enough because it was. A late equaliser away to the Champions, who have only conceded at home previously against one other team. After we equalised, we were unlucky not to win and showed real positive intent when perhaps other clubs would have been happy to defend the point. What I can't comprehend is why supporters, yourself included, minutes after the final whistle slating Moyes and the result. I simply do not understand that.

Kunal ? if you're so unhappy with the current regime, stop going the game.

Paul McGinty
103   Posted 05/12/2010 at 17:53:02

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Ingrained negativity and the lack of a winning mentality ...I just cannot agree. Everything you see Michael seems to be shaded by this opinion. I am not really a stats person, but your position gave me cause to take a look at some relating to this season.

http://soccerbythenumbers.blogspot.com/2010/12/shots-and-goals-epl-update-of-offensive.html

It looks at offensive production this season. To my eyes the season to date has been one where forward production has been poor; chances missed in front of goal etc. Our main playmaker has been injured, and backups (Rodwell, Fellaini) injured or suspended. We are short on pace but are not a long ball team tending to try and walk the ball in or finding Tim Cahill's head!

That said, apparently we have had the fifth number of shots in the League, but are among the worst in our ratio of goals to shots. At home we are amongst the worst for shooting on target and when we do actually hit the target amongst the worst for scoring. The away stats are on the link if you want to look at them.

My only point in bringing up these stats is to me the high number of shots (up there with Man U and Arsenal), low percentage of shots on target and low percentage of goals, demonstrates what we see... strikers out of form. Which maybe over a season will even out.

It's less to do with a negative mindset. Others may conclude Moyes isn't working them on finishing, whatever... I just think over the season things even out and our fortunes will change. Looking inside the Managers is just neither possible or productive. I just do not see this Everton team as negative... to my mind these stats bear this out.

Michael Kenrick
104   Posted 05/12/2010 at 18:34:34

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I'm not a great believer in football stats like these, I'm afraid, Paul. Yes, they sound very good... and if we were sitting in 5th place behind these teams then I'd perhaps give more credit to your opinions.

But other people telling me we are playing great positive football and earning an excellent point at the home of the Champions does nothing to deny the knowledge I have from watching every minute of this game that we should have won this match ? and left with THREE points ? not just one.

Negativity embraces so much: it's down to key decisions, passing backwards or sideways instead of forward, players not running into space when we have possession, picking the safe play rather than the adventurous play, having more of a coherent gameplan for what each of the players should be doing when we have possession and should be going forward... training strikers to back track, defend, keep shape, rather than training them to shoot!!! Having everyone back for corners... the list is endless, and horrible.
Kunal Desai
105   Posted 05/12/2010 at 18:49:48

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I don't go to the games and neither do I intend to, not for a very long time until I feel I get value for the money I part with. That ain't happening any time soon.
Michael Kenrick
106   Posted 05/12/2010 at 18:43:40

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Brian, 101 ? personally, what I can't comprehend is fans like you who are so accepting of our mediocrity. You talk with typically Moyesian inferiority about going to the home of the Champions... talk of other clubs being happy to defend a point. Err... Sunderland???

You can't understand me providing a critque of the match minutes after the result... well, I was mainly pointing out that we should have won, and suggesting reasons why we didn't... Oh look, here's what Moyes said, just minutes after the game: "I was disappointed we didn't come away with more." Sounds to me like he thought we shoulda won too.
Leon Perrin
107   Posted 05/12/2010 at 19:03:58

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Moyes is a negative coach; after 9 years of his gear, I can't see how anyone can say different.

But then I can't see how Peter Sutcliffe ("The Yorkshire Ripper") gets fan mail... but he does.

Julian Wait
108   Posted 05/12/2010 at 20:15:52

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@ Albert Perkins (#83) ? After commenting, I did look up the rule book and obstruction per se does not exist, but there is "impeding an opponent" which is somewhat vague but still fits this situation better than a penalty.

cf. (from the US Soccer site) ?Obstruction? became ?impeding the progress of an opponent? in 1997; impeding the progress of an opponent is defined in the Laws of the Game: ?Impeding the progress of an opponent means the path of the opponent to obstruct, block, slow down or force a change of direction by an opponent when the ball is not within playing distance of either player.? It is punished by an indirect free kick for the opposing team.

Clearly the ball was NOT in playing distance (3 feet is the norm for "playing distance" and it was at least 6 feet away) when contact was made but further I would argue that the attacker in this particular case initiated the contact on Howard, not the other way around. I have watched it 5 or 6 times and at no time after the attacker kicks the ball away does Howard try and move into the attacker's path to impede him / his progress. The attacker just runs into Howard (with his arm no less) and I actually expected a foul to be given the other way.

Surely no-one would say that Howard doesn't have a right to run into the player's path to make him change direction ... keepers do that every week?

I think Everton were unlucky in a sense but the other harsh reality is if it had been 0-0 still, I doubt Moyes would have made the subs he did to try and win the game. Chelsea were there for the taking and with a bit more guts (starting Beckford instead of Saha perhaps?), nouse (Neville, plus for example Beckford's inability to pass to a player in a much better position) and luck (Howard, Rodwell on the post) we could have won.

Baines was brilliant and the aptly named Coleman kept Cole quiet for the most part, including a couple of "strong" challenges in the box.

I liked Rodwell and Fellaini together second half and wonder how we can combine Arteta with them (in a more forward position behind Cahill or Beckford perhaps?).
Brian Lawlor
109   Posted 05/12/2010 at 20:30:59

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So yesterday's result was mediocre was it Michael? You obviously don't read my posts properly. I said after scoring a late equaliser, most clubs would be happy to defend a point earned!

You are seriously turning in to Dave Wilson mate twisting everything to suit your agenda.

Ian Smitham
110   Posted 05/12/2010 at 21:08:41

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Just read Lyndon's report and that of Ken. Impresssed with the way that so many views can be so different and yet about the same subject.

Amost a case of good cop, bad cop. Or just bias.
Jeff Armstrong
111   Posted 05/12/2010 at 21:14:11

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Got to agree with Julian (#107); I watched it 3 or 4 times and at no point does Howard move into Anelka's path, it's the other way around actually ? Anelka moves into Howard's path after slipping the ball past him. As Andy Gray would say, what does the ref expect Howard to do? He cannot become invisible!

Having said all that, I would still drop him and bring Mucha in.
Michael Kenrick
112   Posted 05/12/2010 at 21:50:40

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Ian (#109), I've read them all too, and I think they are all fair descriptions of the game. I'd be interested to know where they differ in terms of the bias you cite when describing what happened during the game. Please be specific.
Jamie Crowley
113   Posted 05/12/2010 at 22:04:23

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David Hallwood:

You say: Now you described that as a definition of negativity, therefore do you think that Moyes pulls Saha to one side and tells him to stand around like a big lanky gobshite looking for a lampost to lean on?

The reason why we are where we are is because Yak & Saha are horribly out of form.

And Moyes started him ahead of Beckford ? pretty negative approach from the outset wouldn't you say? It doesn't matter if Moyes told him to stand around or not ? he started him! I'm not picking a fight, I just really don't understand your logic and it left me perplexed.

Moyes doesn't have to tell him a thing ? he needs to start the most effective players in their most effective positions. If he isn't doing that, can that not be construed as a form of negativity?
Michael Kenrick
114   Posted 05/12/2010 at 23:55:00

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Jamie, your point about Saha being selected to start by the manager is spot-on.

Brian (#108) I'm not playing that game. You want to shame me for critiquing the manger when we failed to win; you are perfectly satisfied with the draw ? after all, it was at the home of the Champions and little wee homely Everton were not expected to get zilch.

Well fuck that attitude. It disgusts me. We kick off in a game ? any game, against anyone, and it's 0-0, all to play for. I wholly reject this insidious acceptance of the form book as a valid baseline for assessing a team's performance in place of due consideration of the match itself. At least I provide my assessments of the game rather than spending my time online sniping at and lying about other Evertonians because they have a different viewpoint.
Ernie Baywood
115   Posted 06/12/2010 at 01:09:49

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Should have won? I diagree, Michael. It was a very hard fixture and we COULD have won.

This isn't me shrinking at the sight of a decent team. It's me appreciating the efforts of a team who went to Stamford Bridge and genuinely could have won the game.

I wouldn't expect Moyes to go hell for leather away to Chelsea ? I think that's how you get absolutely smacked. What we did was start brightly, work hard, and get forward as much as we could. Both halves, with the second half clearly the better of the two.

Michael, sometimes it seems like you think that the team that plays it's heart out will always win; not true, they might come up against a good side.

On Saturday, we were up against a good side and had a real crack at them with about the right balance of defensive organisation, possession, and attacking play (though it was all still dominated by our left flank).

We COULD have won. That's a good sign isn't it?
Jamie Crowley
116   Posted 06/12/2010 at 04:47:43

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Ernie:

"I wouldn't expect Moyes to go hell for leather away to Chelsea ? I think that's how you get absolutely smacked."

Sunderland doesn't think so....

Your lack of ambition is worrying.

Three games: DDD = 3 points..... LLW = 3 points. Safety first v. go for it - only have to get it right 33% of the time and you're still dead level with the safety first approach.

And with the talent we have, yesterday's first half, safety-first approach is exactly why we languish in the table.

Aim high friend, aim high.
KPR Williams
117   Posted 06/12/2010 at 09:45:06

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1st half: Midfield partnership who ain't played together in how long? Striker, picked on the basis of scoring 5 in his last 5 but who just doesn't offer anything to a defender/midfielder looking for a runner.

2nd half: Midfield duo find their feet and start to gel, immobile striker off, bit more to think about for them at the back and we come into our own. Would the 'negative Moyes' brigade be happy if we started 4-3-3 home and away and got a sound thrashing every game?

Check the opta stats, we are a top 5 attacking team we just ain't scoring the goals, we need Rodwell's header to hit Cech's arse and roll in. A slice of luck can turn a season.

Personally, I think if we dispensed with Moyes anytime soon, we will be a Championship side and then I suppose that will be Moyes's fault too. I don't apologise for Moyes but I know when certain individuals could do better.

KPR Williams
118   Posted 06/12/2010 at 11:27:22

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5 in 5 against Chelsea of course... probably merited his inclusion as it's a record you can't ignore.
Matt Thomas
119   Posted 06/12/2010 at 13:11:09

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For the life of me, Moyes failed to grasp Chelsea were there for the taking. Cahill spent too much time arguing with officials over Chelsea defenders beating him to every ball which he was too slow to react to. If we had gone with two out-and-out strikers, we could have done what Sunderland did as our midfield were comfortable and in control at times. I just wish sometimes Moyes would go for it, as Di Matteo seems to be doing with West Brom.
Tony J Williams
120   Posted 06/12/2010 at 13:22:44

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If there is one phrase that winds me up more than any on here it is the "There for the taking" garbage. Have you watched us lately? Have you seen where we are in the league? If Chelski won, they went top. so how, in all that is Holy, can it be the current Champions are there for the taking? I would bet that Sunderland will never get a result like that again in the next 5/10 years at Stamford Bridge.

We are 2 points from the bottom 3 and we should be beating the Champions... seriously? Their form is poor, ours is just as bad, if not worse.

We COULD have won, if our free striker had a bit of nouse and if the referee could see Anelka's cheating for what is was but if my Auntie had bollocks she would be my Uncle...
KPR Williams
121   Posted 06/12/2010 at 15:07:20

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True Tony... folk on here forget we are who we are.

If any of Howard's ahem 'handling errors' had been converted, we could have got another ass whuppin.

Liability? He's fast becomming one.
Michael Kenrick
122   Posted 06/12/2010 at 16:24:26

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It's a bit sad, I know, when I have to rely on the words of the Everton captain to back up my points, but for the likes of Mr Lawlor and Mr Williams, here's what he had to say to the Beeb:

"Yea, I thought we shoulda won the game, It was one of those games where in the first half we had to rid a little bit of a storm. We did that. It was my mistake for the goal, I hold my hands up, it was a disastrous passback.

"But my teammates dug me out of it second-half, we finished really strong, we were fit, we showed all the things we didn't show last week, that was sprit and determination. That's what the manager asked of us and that's what he got.

"He sent us out to go for it, he didn't want us sit off, he didn't us to drop off, he wanted us to really get on the front foot get in their faces and go for it. I think in the league at the moment draws are no good, we need to start winning games. We showed the appetite today to do that. We just fell short at the end.

"We can take a little of the plaudits, but only a little because it's only a point. We've got Wigan next and we've fallen down against the teams in and around us.

"We've done well against the big teams, but next week's game is our biggest test of the season. We've failed these tests so far this season and we can't fail again.

"We need to show the same spirit and determination that we did today."
Jamie Crowley
123   Posted 06/12/2010 at 16:05:16

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Tony W and KPR ? I'm not a Moyes hater at all. In fact, I really like the guy.

But did you see the first half? Seriously? Chelsea brought the ball up the pitch out of their defensive end at leisure after the first 5 minutes. We clearly were putting 10 men back behind the ball. When we attacked ? after going down, I might add (what a shocker) ? we took the game to them, had them on the ropes, and frankly could have won.

The utter frustration is that we didn't do that for 90 minutes! The first 45 was just horrible, and anyone watching could not honestly say our team wasn't told to think defensive! Watch it again if you can ? we completely sat back and hoofed it quite often.

The reason the game was "there for the taking" is because IF we approach the damn game with the same verve and aggression we did when we went down in the second half, we WIN! Hence, the game was there for the taking ? period!

That is, as I've spewed here the last 2 days just to feel better frankly, the problem ? and it is most definitely down to Moyes!

Yes, Tony, we got a point at the Bridge. Yes, no question that's a good result. No one's saying going to Chelsea and getting a point isn't good ? you'd be a freaking moron to argue the opposite. BUT when you frankly SHOULD have taken all 3 but didn't because you're scared of your own shadow in the first half, and have some massive inferiority complex because you're playing the defending Champions ? hell man, that's just sad! Who gives two fiddler's fucks if Chelsea's been crowned Team of the Universe? They've not been playing well, and we gifted them a point ? yes, I said that ? because we set up to defend against a "superior" team on the road.

It would appear to me frankly that when we play our most talented men in their proper positions WE might actually be the more talented side.

But how would we know? We don't because we never, ever go for it against the big clubs for 90 minutes.

Ahhhh!

I feel better.....
Tony J Williams
124   Posted 06/12/2010 at 16:35:54

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Jamie, I am with you completely, I just don't understand why our players can't perform for a full 90 minutes; they have good halves.

It's not about going for it, it's about keeping your shape and playing the football we know they can for 90 minutes, instead of booting the ball up to the Gods when it gets a little rough.

If we went "for it" from the first whistle, we would be goosed by the 60th and, if you are not 3/4-0 up by then, you are screwed.

It's all well and good saying we should be positive but if the team we are playing are that good, which Chelski are, they will murder you on the break, which they nearly did.

It was a decent point but we could have won just as easily as we could have lost if Terry's shot went in or Coleman's tackle ended up with an other penalty. Ifs and buts etc

Michael, what would you expect your captain to say? Christ we were lucky there etc they should have battered us with the form we have had of late? People on here go all frothy at the mouth the second he speaks usually, now it is proof of what exactly?
KPR Williams
125   Posted 06/12/2010 at 16:52:56

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inferiority complex seems to be the new 4-5-1.

I'm sure somebody has even started a thread named just that.

Our defending lately can best be described as shite, and however bad Chelsea played they had Drogba and Anelka on the pitch. 2 players who don't even need a half chance.

It's like there is only us on the pitch to some people? If we attack, attack, attack and it bounces off Saha (again), Coleman runs up a blind alley (again), or Pienaar loses possession cheaply (again), we have two of the best finishers in the world running at Jags and Distin... cricket score anybody?

We ain't playing well enough to go gung-ho!!! That's my slant
Ernie Baywood
126   Posted 06/12/2010 at 21:38:10

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I think most people are in heated agreement that we need to cut loose a bit more, but where we differ is whether that falls at the manager's feet.

I blame Moyes for lots of things but, for me, he only got one selection wrong on Saturday and that was Saha ? the main attacker. How better to set that team up to go for a win? Its not as simple as having an extra forward on the pitch. The shape, with Baines contributing from full-back caused Chelsea problems to the point that it was THEM that had to make changes in an attempt to nullify us. Of course Chelsea had good spells in the first half but out threat was still there and, watching the game, it was evident all the way through.

The fact is that in a game there are times when you have momentum and times when you don't. Doesn't the fact that we went to Chelsea and had a lot of the game show that Moyes might actually have got this one right?

On the Saha issue. Something is clearly amiss with the Yak and I don't think Moyes would be the only one who has reservations about using Beckford from the start but sooner or later he has to take that punt... not least because he's soon going to be faced with losing Cahill and we need a Plan B.
Michael Kenrick
127   Posted 07/12/2010 at 00:40:47

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Tony (#124) ? I didn't say Pip's words were proof of anything... merely that they backed up the points I've been slammed for by some usual naysayers.

Namely: "We shoulda won" ? his words and mine.

Namely: a draw and a point instead of three is not good enough, we need to be winning games like this.

I can understand you not wanting to concede on this ? that's pretty normal for you ? and yes, there is a certain irony in quoting Capn Pip when we have so often cringed at his words...

But on this occasion, the man speaks candidly and clearly speaks the manifest truth. Just pointing it out, that's all.
Tony J Williams
128   Posted 07/12/2010 at 09:01:44

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I understand where you are coming from Michael but it is just one player's "words". We should have won? Who says? Apparently Pip, that's all right then but the fact is that they should have had a penalty when Coleman went through Cole and were unlucky with Terry's shot. We could also just as easily have lost.

We should have won? Should have said, "we had a small chance to win but blew it" would have been more accurate.
Michael Kenrick
129   Posted 07/12/2010 at 16:01:05

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Tony, I can't help you much further.

All I can say is I voiced an opinion on the game and got slammed by the perennial negative souls on here who, like you, don't think this Everton team are capable of all that much really. Under Moyes, you may be right... but I said we should have won this game; Moyes said he was disappointed we didn't get more from the game... and then Pip pops up with exactly the same thought: we shoulda won.

Go Figure.
KPR Williams
130   Posted 07/12/2010 at 16:49:08

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Imagine if they had said getting a point was a result...

INFERIORITY COMPLEX!!!

It's all about the spin.
Ciarán McGlone
131   Posted 07/12/2010 at 17:43:35

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"It's a bit sad, I know, when I have to rely on the words of the Everton captain to back up my points"

--------------------

It's not sad. It's hilarious.

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