If the thought police have now decided that it is racist to call a footballer a cheating scouser, or a mental Scotsman, then I am afraid that Goodison Park would be a hollow shell for every game, because I have certainly vented my spleen on the likes of Gerrard, or Dave McKay, Billy Bremner and a thousand others over the years.

What I have never done is scream racist shite like a lot of brain-dead idiots have and still do, some of them sitting near to me. If Mr Sibson has only shouted what a lot of us have over the course of this season, then I think he has grounds for an appeal.

Everton, as I have said before on another thread, are only being selective in their actions to give the impression they are on top of racists at the game, make an example of one guy to dissuade others. If what Mr Sibson says is true, then I would be pretty pissed off if it was me, being accused of racism, surely slanderous?

I must say, that this season I have basically given up on the screaming, mainly sitting through the whole game with my head in my hands... I don't even shout at the referees any more.

At the same time, Michael, I think it might be too casual to say just because fans are frustrated entitles them to shout any kind of abuse. While being overly politically correct doesn't really solve anything, it is important that people learn that speak responsibly.

If the name calling was just "you lazy bastard", I don't think it would have been an issue. Also, if he was called "lazy French bastard" in jest as the team and fans celebrate another victory, then it is again another issue.

Just like the fact that all of us makes racist jokes, as banter to friends about their time-keeping, intelligence etc. But those are done in a different context.

The resultant scuffle was one of the rare occasions I've seen fellow-Blues smack each other at the match... Quite Life-of-Brian-ish, really.

I have taken my life in my hands a few times castigating people for their pathetic comments and no, some of my best friends are not defined by being black or yellow or whatever other colour is out there, they are just people, like me, with the same weaknesses, the same hopes.

From what I have gleaned from Mr Sibson, he is just a football fan, carried away by the heat of the moment; if anyone knows any better then correct us, if he was a racist then surely he would have added the word 'black' to his tirade?

Just a thought.

I hope he steers clear, the club have alienated another paying fan. Maybe we should get the stewards and horse mounted police to baton charge the majority of opposition supporters who chant anti-Scouse songs and claim that's racist.

It is an observation but the Park End has seen its visible Old Bill stood at the top of entrance stairs rise since this was originally reported and last week actually saw them go in mob handed to the toilets to stop the smokers who had taken it as a refuge all season.

In the last few months, I have witnessed on several occasions 'jobsworths' walking upto the back of the stand and telling people who are standing and leaning on the backwall and not causing any obstruction to anyone to sit down or face being removed. Funnily enough, at the FA cup game against Reading, when a lot of people were standing up and really letting rip into everyone involved with the club, not one of these 'jobsworths' was to be seen...

I'm now pretty certain that if you were to vent your anger against Moyes and his puppet-master Kenwright that you would have a group of these 'jobsworths' attempt to remove you from the ground... WTF is going on?

This country, despite claiming to be a democracy, bends over backwards for minorities which include some particular nasty folk, so yes it's well and truly fucked. Stories such as Mr Sibson's only highlight the growing gap between common sense and appearing to be politically correct which is highly subjective in it's own right. Very little these days surprises me when it comes to the PC brigade.

Nonetheless the ban, in particular, does seem a punishment far in excess of the crime committed. Although we are not, of course, in possession of all the facts, I find it a little curious that supporters nearby would report Mr Sibson to a steward for just the one comment & also odd that further action would be taken by the stewards without themselves being able to corroborate the abusive behaviour, which would necessitate overhearing Mr Sibson's persistent abusive comments.

Sure, it's offensive to scousers but it's the sort of thing that the BBC do on a regular basis, intimate that all scousers are thieves. But they wouldn't accuse all, say, Muslims, or black people of any racial or religious stereotype.

(And why is Brit acceptable but Paki not? Serious question.)

There is more racist diatribe issued against English people than any other nationality within Great Britain.

I was in the pub yesterday(in Northern Ireland) and a Scouser was there, over visiting an ex-army friend. He was a Kopiite and I jokingly suggested a groundshare. Well, I'm now aware that the reds hate the thought as much as we do.

Back to topic, the punishment is totally appalling... There is the disgusting racism of the seventies and then there is the fearful political correctness of today.

She never sings, moans at other fans... I do wonder why the fuck she goes the match?  I'd rather have her ejected for being a moaning bag than for someone venting their spleen!

Totally agree, no room for racism in football, the swearing thing isn't helped by performances on the pitch or the referee, but the place will be like a monastery if the PC crowd get their way. People will be too scared to open their mouths. If you don't want to hear industrial language, don't sit in the Street End... in fact, don't go the match, full stop! 

The flood gates are now open...

Then you implied that all newscasters are fornicaters... after which you made blasphemus reference to the Lord Almighty's son.

By mentioning the disparity in number and racial background of newsreaders carried xenophobic undertones. By golly, the thought police would have a field day with you.

If you really wanted to hurt the feelings of the Irish, Welsh and Scots just call them Pommy bastards.

This story hit me hard, if I was in this situation I honestly would go and support another team. It smacks of the whole commercialisation and needless PC-ing of our society

I truly despair of Everton FC. I know that the fans who supposedly grassed him up are in the minority but, for gods sake, say it to his face or shut it, cowardly fuckers....

It's against the law and more importantly you wouldn't say it to his face (perhaps if you had the TW lynch mob behind you).

BTW, my fine is in the post.

Worker mocked for 'SpongeBob Squarepants' voice awarded £141k

Licia Faithful, an insurance worker, has been awarded more than £141,000 after colleagues accused her of having an 'annoying' voice like the TV cartoon SpongeBob Squarepants.

Mrs Faithful was left an emotional wreck after colleagues at the AXA PPP Healthcare offices in Tunbridge Wells, Kent, taunted her for 18 months, a tribunal heard last week.

AXA staff asked her if she was ?on drugs? because of her unusual voice. They even taped her voice and played it back to her while ?mimicking? and laughing at the 31-year-old. Children?s character SpongeBob Squarepants is known for his annoying nasal tones.

Mrs Faithful started work for the company in 2006 but was moved to the claims department in 2007. By the end of 2008 she was suffering from post traumatic stress and depression and was unable to complete basic household tasks because of the abuse.

She told the tribunal that she was made a ?mockery of? because of her Brazilian origin and had to endure a string of racist taunts. The tribunal heard how staff called the £17,765-a-year employee ?cranky? and ?lazy'.

8:10 PM on March 24, 2011

Racism is a crime! The British are stupids. Look at yourselves! You are horrible, big, clumsy... human trash... Here in Brazil we have never done it with you!"

My apologies if you've read my comments that way. What I had meant is that, amongst a group of international friends, of which I do have, and much respect for, we banter, rib one another ? infront of each other ? in good nature whenever someone makes a fool of themselves etc. And sometimes, this might be (NOT all the time) like "see, that what you get when you are French/Italian/Chinese/Indian etc" and we have a laugh, including the friend whom we are jesting about.

That's what I meant by "racist jokes". Well, some think ? I must be a nutter to consider that a racist joke, others might think that is still racist etc. Well, it's true that not all do that (as I might have too casually mentioned).

But perhaps it just goes to show, hey whatever we say, it can be offensive to someone else. So, perhaps the golden rule is if it offends someone, then hey, perhaps we can all do better with a little self-restraint, as many people who have posted here have championed.

But this itself is contentious, so there you go : )

I agree that racism in sport needs to be ironed out but I do not believe that this man was being racist in any way. What will happen next? A vegetarian fan complaining about the person sitting next to him eating an extra large hot dog!!!

Have the people who complained about the remark never made any remarks like that themselves? I am sure they have, this is football after all ? it is every man's (and some women's) bread and butter, no fan can ever say that they don't get stuck in and give some banter. The entire situation has been blown out of proportion!!

I will certainly have to watch my remarks at matches in the future, not that they are remotely racist, however, some binmen might be upset!!

Highlighting anyone's race or nationality like that is pathetic, cowardly and unacceptable. To say it's not racist because he didn't say "black bastard" is technically correct, but misses the point. Xenophobia is as bad as racism. It's repugnant and shouldn't be allowed.

I have a 2-year-old son who I want to start taking to the match as early as I can, but I'm unsure whether I will, given the behaviour of some fans. I don't want him hearing that kind of cowardly and stupid chanting. I might just take him to watch rugby instead, as for some reason the fans there don't behave like savages.

I think the club were absolutely right to ban this man, and I hope it will send a message to other fans. But it needs to be done consistently and by all clubs, otherwise it's just tokenism. Having said that, in this instance, I think 3 years is way over the top, and to fine him financially seems pointless. He was in the wrong, he should be punished, but i think he's entitled to feel hard done-by.

Yeh, it can be frustrating sometimes being an Everton supporter but is there a need to spout such abuse? It wasn`t racist but it was obscene and hateful so I am glad he has been made an example off. Clubs want to encourage more families and kids to games and this kind of abuse is best left for the pub after the match.

Context rather than content, a society that deems MOBOs as acceptable yet where are the MOWOs? ? and why not just music awards with all open for entry? Why have specific ethnic networks on BBC Radio as segregation is just continuing instead of mainstreaming it all together?

David (#90) ? the poppy burners also screamed obscenities likely to cause upset to the letter of the law, both racist and Section 5 offences, yet got £50 fines. I'd bet a lot of money if you were to burn a Koran in public and scream anti-Muslim taunts, you'd be hit by a damn sight more than a £50 fine.

Everton fans have a notorious racist element. I heard anti-semitic chants twice last year against Benayoun and Tal Ben Haim. Arab players are constantly called terrorists. I've heard the word 'nigger' continually used to describe black players. The difference is personally that they're not directed at anyone in the crowd. As I'm not black, or even know that many black people, I don't take offence.

I don't join in, but I think there's two completely different types of racist behaviour. Many people who espouse racist beliefs while around those of similar ethnic origin are not those who abuse other racial groups in the street. The comments made about Saha were against one of our own players though. I dislike anybody who abuses their own players at a game. Calling opposition players names is fine but we're meant to support our players ? not abuse them.

I'm sick of people constantly referring to 'PC brigade' or 'PC gone mad' in debates like this. It's nothing to do with 'PC gone mad', which I hate as much as anyone. It's about respecting people, and about not judging people on race, nationality, or stereotypes.

Gavin,
Don't make me laugh by referring to rappers using the word 'nigger'. In that context, it's about the reclamation of an aubusive term.

David, France and Ireland may be on the same continent but that's hardly the same as India/Pakistan which were pretty damn close prior to partition in 1947. Can't we just all agree to start giving loads of stick to the French?
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My question is, who represented David Sibson?KEIOC??? ? in my eyes, without them, we would have had no voice.

I'm sure if Tom Hughes, Colin Fitzpatrick, or a great Blue and retired Unite officer, Tony McQuade, would have represented David, then common sense would have prevailed.

Did David have a voice to support him? I think not; if not, why not?

For those who champion freedom of speech at all costs, I say: be on the other side of the fence, have people shout stuff at you, and then see if your position on this still as before.

They also have the same Judge sitting day-in, day-out (except for lengthy holidays!) and he is a very well thought of and well paid Crown Court Judge by the name of David Fletcher. He is responsible for handing out most of the football banning orders at Everton and Liverpool in the last 5 or 6 years. This Judge has an excellent reputation in his profession and is not one for handing out ridiculous sentences to make statements.

The other big thing you are all missing is Sibson has pleaded GUILTY! He admitted his behaviour was threatening and that it came within the racially aggravated part of the offence. He didn't have to admit admit the offence and could have taken it to trial.

Let's not make snap judgements without having the full facts, and it is clear to me that the full facts have not been reported and the press have only reported what makes a good story.

I am only replying to this in the main to inform you I have no political affiliation whatsoever. I have never voted and never will: they are all crooks and liars. I could hazard a guess at your political affiliation ? like you did with my own or where I would fit in ? but I won?t; I will just assume you have one which may vary but it will put me on a completely different level to you.

?A nothing incident." ? ?Really?? I will elaborate: for me, calling someone a lazy French so-&-so, as has been put forward, I do not deem necessary to be punished in a such a way that has occurred, if at all; however, there definitely is a cut-off point. If someone had stepped over the line, I would agree; this was not one of the them occasions. Just because ?it is still a punishable offence? does not make it right. I'll let you in on a secret: the law is not always right... far from it; history is littered with occasions proving this, recent or otherwise.

?But the paltry fine handed out to the poppy-burner is neither here nor there, as individual cases are interpreted & adjudicated by different judges? ? You wrote 195 words damming a fellow Evertonian and all and sundry who questioned the inconsistencies between the two cases in question, then summarise something horrendous in the less than 30 words, to fit in with the axe you grind with a recurring theme of "disenfranchised white people," & ?working-class disenfranchisement.?

I am really trying to see where you are coming from but I can?t get my head that far up my own ass.

One presumes that should one feel inclined to shout during a particular football match could be punished by the existing law? Or not? Do you have to specify the addressee of the invective, by name?

It's a pity we haven't got the full story... What about the public record / transcript of court proceedings? Surely someone could ferret that out for us?

?Your refusal to acknowledge this widely held attitude renders your argument completely redundant? Really? There is a clear difference in my mind between ?Black Bastard? and ?French Bastard? one is wrong, and the other is not. I cleared that up before saying there was a cut of point, and ?Black bastard? would fit the criteria.

I also believe ?Bastard? is not read as literal as you seem to assume. As for this would ?David Cameron publically refer to Sarkozy as? I really could not care less what Cameron has to say, if he told me it was light outside I would check to see if it was dark and it probably would be.

"Just because it is a punishable offence does not make it right." That he was punished? Newsflash! Yes it does! The guy was out of order, admitted he was, and the law agrees with me. ? You sound like an SS officer when tried with war crimes. You do understand an admission of guilt does not mean one is guilty?

?Michael's plausible suggestion?? If this was the case and Mr Sibson went over the line, I would have no sympathy.

?Your surreal claim? This is related to these comments ?Your refusal to acknowledge this widely held attitude? ? ?The guy was out of order, admitted he was, and the law agrees with me.?

??But if you happened to be a teacher would you?? ? I would teach people to think for themselves; fortunately I am not a teacher.

We can argue you all day, not going to.

Peace

Can you comment personally on whether you believe this represents a change in the law that has perhaps taken a while to filter through to belligerent proto-xenophobes who have no idea that, in the eyes of the law, they are committing a racially aggravated offence?

In 1998 the Labour government introduced the Crime and Disorder Act which replicated some of the public order offences word for word but with the additional element of racial or religious aggravation. An offence is racially aggravated if at the time of committing it the offender demonstrates towards the victim hostility based on the victim's membership (or presumed membership) of a racial or religious group; or the offence is motivated wholly or partly by hostility towards members of a racial or religious group based on their membership of that group.

Subsequent case law has interpreted racial group to include nationalities. So that reference to 'French' in this case as opposed to reference to skin colour would still qualify.

In response to the issue of proportionality. The basic offence of disorderly conduct which is defined as using threatening, abusive ot insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour within hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress can only be dealt with by fine. You can't go to jail or even receive a community sentence.

The racially aggravated offence, somewhat controversially, did not extend the sentencing powers. Courts feeling toothless with sometimes horrible racist offences will impose ancillary orders such as banned from licenced premises/excluded from town/ football grounds etc, because a fine seems an insufficient punishment. Please note this is not necessarily my view.

Full quote and still is a presumption based on colour is it not? It actually sounds worse to me in full.


?? why you think it's fine for people to tee-off on the French?... ? ? A slur based on nationality is wrong, I have not said it isn?t, but in this case my interpretation of the comment was based on a perceived opinion of Saha being a ?Lazy Bastard? during the game, I read as annoying nothing to do with the literal meaning of ?Bastard? he so happens to be French, French people In England are labelled French, don?t know why, just are, hence ?Lazy French Bastard?. For instance if it was Beckford it would have been ?Lazy Bastard? because he is English, suppose it is all down to interpretation grey areas etc.

?? Democratic & peaceful society of today?? ? Laughable; I am sure you know about the xenophobic war raged on Iraq, them WMD they had and their awful treating of their people ? read 144# ? Illegal by definition and the reasons for the war by their definition were not only illegal but made up, hardly ?peaceful? ask Libya, all over the world there are wars and censorship.

This has been on-going for days really had enough, boring more important things to think about, good day.