I recently read Wayne Rooney: My Story. In the book, Rooney mentioned Joseph Jones several times, saying that Jones had come all the way through Everton's academy with him and Anthony Gerrard... and was a better player in the beginning.
In the end he said that only a few players can break into a first team side and the rest go to the lower divisions, and even Joseph Jones ended up at Macclesfield. I have since developed a curiosity about Joseph Jones ? wondering how a player that was once better than Wayne Rooney could end up in the lower divisions, I guess.
I know that he is not currently in the Macclesfield first team but on your site I confirmed that he transferred there from Everton on 18 May 2004. He was there as of 2006 when Rooney wrote his book and I have been wondering where he has gone since.
As you can imagine, internet searches are a nightmare since he has such a common name. I noticed that you have profiles for some of Everton's former youth players but not for him. I understand that it's harder to find so much on someone that ended up in the lower divisions but I wondered if someone could at least tell me what team he is with now.
No other sites even mention him ? and I have looked through lots of transfer records with no results. I figured that ToffeeWeb would be the best resource to turn to.
Katie Jones, Posted 07/07/2010 at
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1 Posted 07/07/2010 at 07:03:21
Likelihood is that no-one picked him up and he, like so many who try to move up through the level, found his dream of professional football was at an end.
Once they move out of football, it is pretty much impossible to keep track of them unless someone has personal knowledge of them... and even then, to be honest, it's unlikely.
2 Posted 07/07/2010 at 07:34:45
We seem to have a youngster almost every couple of years who is going to be the next big thing.
Jose Baxter (we will see)
They almost always never fulfill their potential. All clubs have them. A couple of seasons playing under 18 or if they are lucky reserve team football. Then, when they are not able to make the grade, they are released. Sign for lower league clubs and hope they can get some sort of career floating round League 1 or 2. This is how lower league clubs run as a going concern.
For every Rooney and Rodwell there are maybe 60 that haven't made the grade.
Not aiming this at Everton's feet but clubs in general. If the money that clubs spent on average "Joe Foreigner" was channeled into producing a constant stream of gifted youth players, then the national sham of a team might play like Holland or Germany.
3 Posted 07/07/2010 at 08:08:02
I do like your analogy of the Dutch and German sides with the Germans in particular having a history of developing and introducing young players into their side, being derided for it then giving other teams a footballing lesson. The National team should certainly take that lesson to heart, the German team at the World Cup has an average age of just 24.
4 Posted 07/07/2010 at 08:02:26
They have a predominance of pretty ordinary players and two better players in Robben and Sneijder. I don't rate Van Persie at all. They are the most prolific divers in the tournament and Robben particularly makes me want to puke when he starts.
In Van Bommel they have the most cynical and overrated player in South Africa and how he has not been sent off, especially against Brazil, amazes me! His over the ball lunge at the Uruguayan immediately before their first goal last night, which went unpunished, was abominable That goal should never have stood..
No, I just think Holland have been very, very lucky to get where they are going at the weekend and we should not hold them up as a vision for the future!.
As for the original post, I have often wondered exactly what it is that players lose as kids that leads to rejection after a flying start. I know that sometimes it is purely physical, they can stop growing, turn lanky, get fat, stay thin or whatever but that would not explain the majority. If basic skills stand out at the age of 12, what stops them standing out at 16 or 18? Sometimes I wonder whether clubs give up too quickly on youngsters and don't allow them a natural pause in their development at which time they are shown the door. Even older, established players can suffer a prolonged loss of form (Moutinho?)
Once shown the door and a drop to a lower level (and a lower level of expectation) takes place, there is hardly ever a way back. The hurdles are too high. Perhaps if the root and branch inquiry into English football actually takes place, that is one area that should be investigated.
5 Posted 07/07/2010 at 09:03:04
6 Posted 07/07/2010 at 08:58:24
7 Posted 07/07/2010 at 09:16:22
8 Posted 07/07/2010 at 09:15:43
9 Posted 07/07/2010 at 09:15:23
I agree with your points but very much hope you are proven wrong with paragraph 6. I really hope Jermaine Beckford proves that to every rule there is an exception but I guess we will all have to wait and see. ;o)
10 Posted 07/07/2010 at 09:35:12
11 Posted 07/07/2010 at 09:46:55
LOL! That's golden that!
On the topic, there's an absolute shedload of players that hit a brick wall in terms of their ability. There's a player for Sunderland named Grant Leadbitter, who was an astonishing talent at youth level. He made Beckham look stupid.
However, he progressed, did "OK" and he's now playing for Ipswich.
Then you have the Aston Villa youth strikers Luke and Stefan Moore who everyone thought to be the next Michael Owens. Luke now plays on the fringes with West Brom and Stefan plays for Halesowen.
It's all about fulfilling potential. For every Rooney there's a hundred Barlows.
12 Posted 07/07/2010 at 10:02:00
13 Posted 07/07/2010 at 09:37:33
They are a very good team
Stating the obvious?
Well maybe but...maybe not.
After England went out, I heard the mozzy-voiced Carragher bemoaning their luck.
At one point he said something along the lines of..
"Van Bronk'orshhht is a good player but no way iz ee as good as Ashley Cole".
For me that comment kind of gave the game away.
The fact is 'good' players are a waste of space unless they can work (or be made to work) as part of a team
Holland have had teams with 'better players' in previous world cups who haven't got anywhere near as far as this bunch because they couldn't (or wouldn't) work together.
In 87 when we last won the league, most of the players who played for us that season wouldn't INDIVIDUALLY have excited football fans around the world, but they were all prepared to do work their bollocks off for each other and did, week after week.
This Dutch side have a lot of that about them.
They close down brilliantly and work like bastards.
Of course they're beatable but any opposition is going to have to work incredibly hard to beat them.
Our own Johnny Heitinga does very little that is complicated or clever but he has obviously bought into the idea of the collective
He gets and gives the simple ball ? job done.
There's not going to be clips repeated endlessly of him doing it but... so what?
Cars was the same ? thinking about the team not how he'd look on MotD. (See 'stranded in no-man's land' Glen Johnson.)
It's about winning games not looking good.
Individually ('on paper') France have some great players but because they thought as individuals they made total cunts of themselves in this World Cup.
As for Carragher, maybe he should consider the following when looking for answers.
Van Bronkhourst (unlike Cole, Rooney, Lennon and me) isn't a smoker.
14 Posted 07/07/2010 at 10:47:37
'It's about winning games not looking good'.
That says it all really. What a pity eh?
By the way, the 1987 Everton team may have lacked individual 'stars', but that didn't stop them looking good. They were more pleasing on the eyes than Holland!
15 Posted 07/07/2010 at 14:27:10
16 Posted 07/07/2010 at 15:42:06
They have had an incredibly easy passage to the final and perhaps shouldn't have really got there. Van Bommel is disgusting. He should have been sent off twice and he even has the cheek to moan at the Refs for not booking other people. The only player I like the look of is Elia, the sub winger; direct and pacey.
17 Posted 07/07/2010 at 16:01:49
18 Posted 07/07/2010 at 15:52:58
How come Holland get all this praise, people seem to forget... England 1 Slovenia 0.
Worst team to reach World Cup Final?!?
How about Italy '94, Germany '02, Both Italy and France '06.
Sneijder and Robben ? two of the best midfielders in the world.
Van Bommel ? dirty, yes... but a very good player who gives both Robben and Sneijder the freedom. (You're glad we didn't sign him?!?! Yet I imagine you laud Carsley's time at Everton.... bizarre), makes Barry look like, er, well Barry... stop being swayed by ITV commentary.
Van Persie ? not hit the heights at this World Cup, but a world class striker... I would love to see him have an injury-free season.
Good Keeper, very solid central defense, a good workhorse in Kuyt who I'm sure both Sneijder and Robben love playing with.
Players like De Jong and Van der Vaart are also top class with some very good squad players such as Elia, Huntelaar and Afellay. All of whom would walk into the England squad.
Yes, they must be shit.
19 Posted 07/07/2010 at 16:17:47
Just one of the many thousands on the scrapheap, I imagine.
20 Posted 07/07/2010 at 16:15:13
I don't think anybody is being swayed by the commenary regarding Holland....van Bommel in particular. Whatever people's views are on Toffeeweb they are more than able to formulate them for themselves.
Neither is anybody saying that Sneijder and Robben are not good players, just that Robben's diving is even more annoying than Ronaldo's!
The rest of the team are very ordinary for me but if you think van Persie is special then that is up to you.
Lee Carsley was a limited footballer who nevertheless did a good job for Everton in his time with us. However, I do not recall him persistently tripping players on the way past him or tripping them from behind when he was chasing them. Nor do I remember him regularly going over the ball as van Bommell does, especially as he did last night. That challenge of his last night was absolutely diabolical and players have been sent off for far less in this World Cup. Holland's first goal resulted directly from the ball going through to van Bronckhurst from the referees failure to punish that foul.
If Holland need a cynical assassin to open up the game for Sneijder and Robben then I'm sorry but that is not the way I want football to go. We were there in the seventies and we don't want to go back to that.
Holland were not in the game against Brazil until Brazil self-destructed. Holland needed an own goal (and a ridiculous one at that) to beat Denmark and they were in no way better than Uruguay last night.
Good luck to Holland as far as I am concerned, if they win the World Cup it is no skin off my nose. All I am saying is that in my opinion (for what it's worth) Holland are the worst team ever to reach the World Cup Final and my memory goes back to 1962.
21 Posted 07/07/2010 at 16:47:11
What a juvenile post!
a) We are not talking about England.
b) This conversation is not about a comparison between England and Holland.
c) We know England are shit.
d) Some of us know Holland are not much better (if at all!)
e) Nobody is throwing stones as this is a discussion about the merits of Holland's appearance at the World Cup Final and not about England's failure to do so.
So what are you on about?
22 Posted 07/07/2010 at 16:52:34
Italy won on Pens in '06
Brazil pens in a boring boring '94 without many of the big teams
Argentina lucky in '86
Italy cheated (selected Rossi), played awful for 4 games and won in '82
You only ever remember the winner.
I certainly remember Carsely kicking a lot of people. As does Cahill, and many players before him. It's called football. What do you think the Makelele role was? He fouled more than anyone... the trick is getting away with it.
I dislike Robben's diving, but I am yet to see a team at this World Cup who hasn't been guilty of it.
The Everton teams you admire in the past... Andy Gray and Co... they didn't exactly play the game like it's Basketball either.
I thought Holland (I missed the first 30 mins) were far superior to Uruguay, without being spectacular.
I don't think they're spectacular, but they're very good, well worked with two spectacular players... Van Persie is class, if it wasn't for injuries he'd be the best in the Prem at the moment next to Torres... I'd rather have that than a team with 4/5 spectacular players but nothing else.
23 Posted 07/07/2010 at 16:33:06
"By the way, the 1987 Everton team may have lacked individual 'stars', but that didn't stop them looking good. They were more pleasing on the eyes than Holland!"
Ummm [waves hand from side-to-side]... I will neither agree or disagree with this. I will simply suggest that, as you love Everton and don't give a fuck about Holland, there's the possibility (nb: only a possibility!) that your view might be (unconsciously!) ever, ever so slightly biased.
I saw that 87 team home and away and, because of injuries and squad players coming in to replace 'stars', a lot of results were gained as much by effort and attitude than anything else.
I'm not saying the football was shite, but understandably, it wasn't as consistently good to watch as in 85.
It's also worth remembering that for years, West Ham were applauded (ie: patronised) by one and all for their flowing football and 'style'. I believe they once finished third and are one of the teams who, on visits to Goodison, are regularly reminded that they've ''never won fuck all". (Yes, I know they DO have a few cup wins and a CWC but I get the impression ? due to the gusto with which this is sung ? that the 'fuck-all' refers to titles.)
Of COURSE it's great to have both (good football AND success) but... success comes first.
24 Posted 07/07/2010 at 17:16:24
I remember Alan Shearer talking about his first trial for a professional club and they played him in GOAL!!!!!
Point is, LUCK has a great deal to do with a young player's progress in this country; I don't think that is the case elsewhere.
Holland are in the final; doesn't matter how they got there... fact is they are.
25 Posted 07/07/2010 at 18:13:02
26 Posted 07/07/2010 at 19:21:57
I (vaguely) know David Platt and several people who went to school with him (and know him much better!) and they assure me he was utter, utter bobbins as a footballer, literally couldn't get into his school football team, he'd turn up for try-outs but never made the grade.
Then about 6 months after leaving school he was shit-hot at Crewe. does make you wonder exactly what "talent" is, or if it even exists.
27 Posted 08/07/2010 at 06:45:05
When taking a level 3 coaching badge in 1980 I had to submit a verbal analysis of a key opposition player. I chose that Joey Jones for it.
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