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Homegrown Everton vs Foreign Everton

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Being bored , I was idly speculating on what a British/Irish Everton team and a "foreign" Everton team from the current squad would look like, and I came up with the following:

British/Irish Everton XI:

Beckford, Vaughan, Osman, Rodwell, Neville, Coleman, Baines, Jagielka, Shane Duffy, Hibbert, Turner

"Foreign" Everton XI:

Saha, Cahill, Pienaar, Arteta, Fellaini, Anichebe, Bilyaletydinov (LB), Distin, Yobo, Heitinga, Howard

The "Foreign" XI has a better attack and mid-field, but the "Home-Grown" XI has the edge defensively IMO.

2-1 for the foreigners, I say. What do you think?
Ajay Gopal, Bangalore, India     Posted 25/07/2010 at 17:48:40

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Dean Adams
1   Posted 25/07/2010 at 21:50:00

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I think all Everton fans should get their bets on us finishing top 4 and for the really brave the title. History, fate whatever, forever Everton.
Nil Satis Nisi Optimum!
Luke Berry
2   Posted 25/07/2010 at 21:54:45

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Yeah I agree... the brave might like a go at 200/1 which is roundly being touted. I think this is a really good chance for this squad. Top four is a nail-on I think.
Luke Berry
3   Posted 25/07/2010 at 21:57:45

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Oh and Duffy is Irish mate, so we might be short in defence!
Jay Harris
4   Posted 25/07/2010 at 22:35:19

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Ajay,
I think Anichebe might be upset at being called "foreign" (even though he's playing for NIgeria) and Yak would be upset about being omitted totally.
Tony Hughes
5   Posted 26/07/2010 at 07:22:54

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"Top four is a nail on", which top four quality players have we purchased that will enable us to jump from 8th place to 4th then?
Duncan McDine
6   Posted 26/07/2010 at 09:02:49

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Tony, if you don't have any belief that we can carry on with the form from the 2nd half of last season (when we actually had 11 senior players fit for most matches) then I feel for you.

Pre-season has been excellent so far, so I think all Evertonians should be optimistic. I'm not so sure that 4th is nailed on, but I know we'll be a lot closer in that fight than last season.

I've sensed that something special is about to come from this Everton squad for the last 2 or 3 seasons... but we do need a bit of good fortune to come our way this season.
Christian Yandell
7   Posted 26/07/2010 at 09:09:35

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Tony where have you been mate??

Did you not notice our title winning form during the second half of last season?

Why only the second half of the season? Simple (and I thought obvious to every football fan and pundit a like) many key players out with long-term injuries.

Do I honestly think we can challenge for the title? As much as my heart is desperate to say Yes, my head says No.

But can we achieve a top four finish if we keep the existing squad together injury free? Bloody right we can.

Bring on 2010-11.
Christian Yandell
8   Posted 26/07/2010 at 09:30:50

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Oh and at the risk of getting carried away, I think Beckford might be another bit of Moysie Magic from the lower leagues.

Big words seeing he has not played a single prem game I know but he has the confidence / arrogance needed when stepping up to the biggest league and one thing we already know is he knows where the goal is.
Ciarán McGlone
9   Posted 26/07/2010 at 09:38:49

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Remind me...how many games did we draw during our 'title winning form' in the second half of last season?

We played our best football in the middle of the season, when we had balance in midfield..we now don't have that. That is a fact. When we lost Donovan, we lost our midfield balance. People are going on about Gueye... but he's a bloody striker! And so is Anichebe, he doesn't have the ability to make the right wing his own.

Yeah, we've beat Preston and a couple of Australian postmen... and we should start the season better than last year due to the lack of injuries. But this fantasy about winning the league and the top four being 'nailed on' is ludicrous.

The teams competing with us have improved ? I'm talking about Liverpool, and City... and I expect Villa and Spurs to buy. Whereas we've lost a key player in a key position from last season and spent nothing. And we appear to have nothing to spend whatsoever.

Positivity is one thing, but it should really be based on some sense of reality. I can't wait for the Premier League to start but I get the feeling that you guys are building yourselves up for one serious fall back to earth. The Premier League is the most competitive it's ever been. We can expect games from every team in the Premier League this season. There are no easy 3 points any more.

Taking things for granted is a dangerous game.
Tony Hughes
10   Posted 26/07/2010 at 11:14:58

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This is a new season guys what happened last season is irrelevant, our closest rivals have strengthened or will have the funds to strenghten in the coming weeks and, until we see the evidence on the pitch of the players we have brought in being up to the required standard, then we ain't gonna challenge for anything higher than a Europa League. Until we have the required funding at the club to enable us to compete in the transfer market then not a lot will change.
Nick Wall
11   Posted 26/07/2010 at 12:48:54

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This has a bearing on the new 25 player rule. We will have no difficulty meeting the quota for "homegrown" players; however there are currently 30 players listed on the OS, and Moyes has to name a squad of 25. Who will be left out ? And will any of them be loaned out to other clubs ?
James Flynn
12   Posted 26/07/2010 at 12:21:48

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Tony (9) - "This is a new season guys what happened last season is irrelevent". Then what are we (or you) to base our opinions on? What happened the second half of last season is completely relevant to this season's possibilities.

I believe another major factor in our chances is that the Sky 4 and All the Rest of Us era is over. I'd guess the Top 8 this season coming up is the strongest since the PL was formed. The days of ManU/Aresenal/Chelsea having 6-7 games out of 38 to really worry about are done.

Doesn't make is easier on us, but the field is starting to level out where top honors is concerned. We're definitely in the hunt.

As to the money, it has it's place if spent wisely. On the other hand, DM has built EFC in the tried and true (see SAF) way and this season we'll reap the benefits and the pitch and in the bank.
Matthew Tait
13   Posted 26/07/2010 at 13:09:48

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Nick - there are 25 players listed in Toffeeweb's squad page, and I'd expect they would be the ones in Moyes' squad for the Prem league. The five additional players on the OS list are Baxter, Wallace, Duffy, Silva and Agard, none of whom are likely to be anywhere near the first team at present. Agree that hopefully loans are options.

I think there's too many 'if's at the moment to say whether or not we're realistic for top 4. Most importantly, will we be able to hang onto Pienaar, Arteta and Jags? Will the squad stay injury free? Will Saha or Yakstart scoring goals again (or will Beckford prove himself at the top level?). Will Bily improve or continue misfiring? Will we find a combination down our right flank that works?

We've got the potential to have an excellent season, and I'm cautiously optimistic at this stage, but there are so many things that could go wrong...
Ciarán McGlone
14   Posted 26/07/2010 at 13:54:47

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James Flynn,

You appear to be unaware of the fact that before Ambrovich, United and Ferguson were the big spenders in the league. They might not have been on the scale of City, but the concept was the same. Buy the best players, or the best youngsters. Or spend the most on the academy.

To compare our plight, and the financial constraints on Moyes, to the way Ferguson built successive teams at United is erroneous nonsense. The only 'right way' is the way that wins titles.
Liu Weixian
15   Posted 26/07/2010 at 14:07:29

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We have a chance of finishing in the top four but things must fall perfectly for us. We cannot afford to have our regulars on the treatment table for a sustained period. We must also turn the draws into wins. That means going out and attacking supposedly weaker teams. Moyes has to be more adventurous.
Tony Hughes
16   Posted 26/07/2010 at 14:12:32

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James, we base our opinions on how clubs have bought and sold in the transfer market and how we anticipate the quality of the players bought to fit into the side plus the manager's ability to mould them into a team. Until we are 10 or so games into the season, then we won't really be able to tell.

You can't say because we had a good run last season, all of sudden we are top four contenders, when like you've said yourself there are more teams competing now. As I've said before, our rivals have strengthened, or have the ability to, and I don't buy all this crap that United, Arsenal and Chelsea are weakening. So, once again, 6th/7th/8th place looks a likely finishing position again.

Peter Hughes
17   Posted 26/07/2010 at 15:05:58

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Nick, Matthew, part of the squad rule is the following clause:

"Clubs will be able to supplement their squads with unlimited additional players under the age of 21 on 1st January in the year in which the season commences."

I can't see the new squad rule posing any issues for us, for example we could leave Rodwell out of the list of 25 and still play him as much as we wanted.

As it stands, everyone on the current squad page (except Lucas who hasn't been taken off yet) will be able to play.

Alasdair Mackay
18   Posted 26/07/2010 at 15:22:10

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Tony; To answer you original question as best as possible: The players we have for an entire campaign this season that we didn't have for the last one are:

Mikel Arteta
Marouane Fellaini
Phil Jagielka
Victor Anichebe

All of these players missed sizeable chunks of the last campaign. I believe that Anichebe has come back from his injury with the one thing that was missing immediately prior to it ? genuine hunger! In addition to these four we have signed:

Jermaine Beckford
Magaye Gueye

Anyone who has watched these two in the pre-season games so far has been impressed. Beckford will give us the much needed impact pace that has been missing since we sold AJ to Fulham, and Gueye looks like a real find. We have also signed Jan Mucha, a full international goalkeeper who played in the last 16 of the World Cup and is being brought in as our back-up goalkeeper! In addition to all this, we have a couple of yongsters that have grown in character and ability since last season and will certainly have more of an impact on our squad for the coming campaign:

Seamus Coleman
Jack Rodwell
Shane Duffy

Last season also saw a slower than ideal recuperation time from Yakubu and shorter-term injuries to Steven Pienaar and Phil Neville. I am putting these down as par for the course, however, as we are likely to suffer one or two injuries this coming season as well. So far we have managed to hold on to all our key players and, if we can go into the season with one or both of the Arteta/Pienaar situations resolved, we will no doubt be stronger still.

So to answer your question "players that will enable us to jump from 8th to 4th"?

10 ? by my count!

Tony Hughes
19   Posted 26/07/2010 at 15:51:01

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Oops, I forgot we've been regular Champions League qualifiers in previous seasons when these injured players have played entire campaigns...
Chris Williams
20   Posted 26/07/2010 at 15:47:17

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Alasdair (#17) ? pretty well every team above us had massive injury problems too, so we're no different in that respect.

Chelsea had major injury problems as did Man Utd and Arsenal, so if the likes of Essien, Terry, Mikel, Drogba, Fabregas, Nasri, Walcott, Nani, Anderson, Vidic etc are back fit then they also will be better off than last season.

City are spending a fortune again as will Spurs because Harry always does, Arsenal are also spending... so, relative to which teams will we have improved? Possibly Villa and maybe Liverpool, who will have a proper manager.

Think 6th or 7th at best unless a couple of decent players are brought in on loan.

Christian Yandell
21   Posted 26/07/2010 at 15:40:10

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Ciarán, unless I am very much mistaken (and I quite often am), every current form guide I saw on Sky pre most games and the BBC site had us in the top three or four for all of the second half of the season?

As for all these teams around us strengthening, who apart from City have done this?

The Shite? Ok so they have brought in J Cole but to be honest I would be very surprised if they don't lose Torres and Mascherano and other than him and (although I hate to say it) Gerrard, I would not swap any of of their first team for ours. So I really do expect them to be weaker if anything,

Tottenham ? Nobody of note so far. Old wobbly head would love a couple of our team but unlikely.

Villa ? Nobody as far as I have heard. Again fighting to keep Milner but as he wants out, so will prob leave.

As far as I can tell, we have a fantastic squad that DM has added 4 new players, where those around us are losing key players.

Yes, that can all change... but right now I feel pretty good about the situation. So afford me that at least until the situation changes, which hopefully it will not!
Ciarán McGlone
22   Posted 26/07/2010 at 15:56:58

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"The players we have for an entire campaign this season that we didn't have for the last one are..."

---------------

This week's lottery numbers... if ya don't mind.
Christian Yandell
23   Posted 26/07/2010 at 16:23:45

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I forgot to mention I was really quite enjoying a bit of positivity on TW for the first time in a long while, although the mood seems to have changed a little today!

If DM says this is the best squad he has ever had (yes we did finish 4th under him). Then I am excited to see what we can do COYB.

Hey Ciarán maybe we could even win a cup or something eh fella, go on admit you think it is possible....
Ben Jones
24   Posted 26/07/2010 at 17:09:36

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It is a mixture of over positivity and negativity from our dear mr McGlone here.

Injuries have clearly effected our season last season. Our form was top 4 form in the second half of the season, but too many draws, as Ciaran said, was the drawback and a top 7 place should have been acheived.

City have improved (who could win the title), but none of the others have. Liverpool have swapped Benayoun for Cole, who are both similar in my opinion, but have no decent left back now so they've worsened.

I think it is possible. We finished with a far worse team in the top 4. But what's changed? The other teams have improved.

City are our biggest threat by a mile. We need them to have an off season to finish there. What worries me is their signings have been good.

We still need that balance in midfield on both wings and that right winger!
James Flynn
25   Posted 26/07/2010 at 17:14:43

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Tony (16) ? OK, nothing really for us to go back and forth about. You don't think we'll do well this season. I do.
James Flynn
26   Posted 26/07/2010 at 17:49:00

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Ciaran (14) - "To compare our plight, and the financial constraints on Moyes, to the way Ferguson built successive teams at United is erroneous nonsense".

Wow, not just erroneous or nonsense, but both together. Whose Grasshopper?

"The only 'right way' is the way that wins titles". Gee whiz! Really? My Grasshopper, that's whose.

Of course I point to Ferguson as the example. How deep were ManU pockets when he took over? In any way remotely comparable to the money today? Didn't he actually come close to being fired early on?

He built (and sustains) that team the tried and true way in every sport; finding the young (and inexpensive) talent and bringing it along (or selling it for a nice profit). Fuck the Glazers. Ferguson created ManU's wealth.

Yes, by the time EFC develops a Rooney, a Ferguson can look towards Goodison, licking his chops knowing he can make an offer DM can't refuse. Moyes may have been left with no choice but to build that way. But he has, starts and stops along the way incuded.

If Moyes has come along to EFC same time as Ferguson to ManU, there'd be a lot more silverware in the EFC case and a lot less in ManU's.

So, let's see what happens this season and the next few after that before tossing around nonsensically erroneous statements like "erroneous nonsense".

James Flynn
27   Posted 26/07/2010 at 19:15:13

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Ciaran (9) - Agree with the balance, mid-field, and mid-season comments. For this coming season, you point out the main thing I worry about.

As far as other teams improving? I'll have to see that before I agree. Might have bought (or about to buy) talented players, fair enough. But good teammates in the locker room and on the pitch still remains to be seen.

EFC might have empty pockets, but we know who we have and what they're like. And you don't hear about dissension with DM's boys. I haven't, anyway. That counts for a lot in competition.

As far as the overall competition, I agree with how tough it is, but come to a different conclusion. Yes, it's tough on us, but what's new there? It's the fact that so many of the so-called Sky 4's easy touches are now gone, piling up the points won't come as easy will it? Add that fact to their CL/Europa grind this next year, I'm feeling confident for EFC.

You aren't? OK. You're obviously not alone in here with that thinking. The games will be played and we'll see.
Sean Patton
28   Posted 26/07/2010 at 20:46:08

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Ciaran

Who is this key player in a key position we have lost?

If it is Gosling then you must be taking the mick, if you mean Donovan then I take your point but in the ten games after he left we got more points than the nine games he was with us.

Gueye might be a striker but he could still slot in on the wing just like Donavan ? who, lest we forget, is also a striker who can play as a winger.
Ciarán McGlone
29   Posted 26/07/2010 at 22:04:40

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James,

No, the money United had at that time was not remotely comparable to today's finances... in much the same way that the price of a loaf was not the same. They were however at the top of the financial tree.

What happens this season is rather irrelevant to my suggestion that your comparison between United in the 90s and Everton now is erroneous nonsense.

James Flynn
30   Posted 26/07/2010 at 22:16:38

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Sean (28) - Statistics are statistics. It's not a matter of this extra point based on who's in the line-up; LD or anyone else.

I think Ciaran's constant emphasis on balance is most important in that it prevents whoever EFC plays a tactical or strategic advantage. Which boils it down to "Here's us and there's you. Blow your whistle ref and let's see who's better".

If EFC is at that point, there's not much for any of us or Moyes to do but watch and see what happens. I'm confident Moyes will find a way.
James Flynn
31   Posted 26/07/2010 at 23:15:45

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Ciaran (29) - That was pathetic. You responded to me like I was Dave Wilson or a half-dozen others you've shadow-boxed with, pretending you were mixing it up.

However much it sucks, DM came into a situation bound to fail and turned it towards winning. Who knew, right?

Your repeated and steady comments about balance I agree with (especially if LD is brought back for the right flank).

But big money only has its place and nothing more. Moyes has a team going into this season that he built over time. I say that team is ready to challenge for everything available in 2010-11. You don't disagree. Fine.

In 2004, a guy plants a tree. In 2010, it's grown to its size healthy. Guy moves in next-door says, "What a pretty tree, I want one too", and so plants one. EFC IS the first tree and ManCity is the second.

A major storm brews and blows over the two of them. Which is likelier to get knocked down?
Brendan McLaughlin
32   Posted 27/07/2010 at 00:00:08

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Only problem with your analogy James is that Citeeh are more likely to say "What a pretty tree... how much do you want for it?"
James Flynn
33   Posted 27/07/2010 at 01:29:10

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Brendan (32) - No problem whatsoever. Unless that tree instantly gets the same care, affection, and nourishment it's been getting all along. With no adjustment to its new surroundings necessary?

This is my counter to the "well, they have money to throw around" argument. Maybe they do. But it still has to add up to everything that makes a tree flourish.

I'm saying DM has taken these years to plant, nourish, and build a team. It's the old-fashioned, proven way to success. Man City has not, even though you can look at them and see trees everywhere.

Perhaps in a couple of years it'll amount to something, but I believe Moyes's way will prove the correct one.

Fuck:
Chelsea
ManU
Arsenal
Tottenham
ManCity
Aston Vila
LFC

Only Ferguson and Froggy have gone about team-building the same as Davey. That makes them formidable for next season, as it does us.

The rest aren't the same.
Brendan O'Doherty
34   Posted 27/07/2010 at 02:10:22

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James, my boy, you need a history lesson:

1) Man Utd were buying and paying high transfer fees for top players long before Ferguson took over.

2) The 'tree' was planted in 2002, not 2004.

3) Have a little bit more respect for Wenger and stop your puerile calling of him 'Froggy.' He is the best manager in the league bar none.

4) I am not an emigrant, as you called me on another thread.
Tony Hughes
35   Posted 27/07/2010 at 07:46:55

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James (#25); fair enough, mate, hope you're right.
David Hallwood
36   Posted 27/07/2010 at 09:40:44

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An Interesting season awaits, and it's a long, long time that I've felt so optimistic about a new season (but could all end up in tears), but as someone pointed out with the exception of Citteh, nobody's spending and it looks like the real economy has seeped into the financial nut house that is football.

As for City; toss a coin... their expensively assembled squad may take off like a greyhound, or they'll play like strangers for half a season and Mancini will be sacked.

But the 25-man squad rule, even with so much room for clubs to body swerve it, if not levels the playing field, certainly evens it out.

Ciarán McGlone
37   Posted 27/07/2010 at 11:28:53

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James,

I certain wouldn't reply to you in the same way I would reply to Dave Wilson....Dave know's what he's talking about. I debate matter's of opinion with Dave. You appear to be unaware of even the most obvious historical facts about football.

You've now had two people tell you that your comparison between Ferguson and Moyes is nonsense. One had money and used it, the other doesn't....No doubt you'll persist.

P.S Your analogy with trees was most amusing.
Christian Yandell
38   Posted 27/07/2010 at 11:36:07

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So we are all agreed the EFC will reign supreme once again!!!

Here's a crazy ideaI want to throw out there....

Let's get behind the manager and the boys and hope for a fantastic season, rather then bitch and moan about how the club is run and who we should have signed and look at those over there with all there money blah blah blah.

Crying about all these things will not change a thing!

Getting behind the team, encouraging and inspiring whilst demonstrating we are the best fans in the world just might change things!
Ciarán McGlone
39   Posted 27/07/2010 at 12:06:28

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Christian,
I think you're on the wrong thread. No-one on here has 'bitched and moaned about how the club is run or who we should've signed'...

Some people are just pointing out some facts to our verdant little import.

ps: Being all positive on a website will have about the same effect on our season as debating the negatives... ie, Zero.
Steve Pugh
40   Posted 27/07/2010 at 13:38:53

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I love it when people make assumptions, like saying that Villa will improve their squad more than we will improve ours, maybe they will maybe they won't, but as it stands we have signed 4 players and they have signed ... errr... oh yeah, NONE.

When you are arguing guys, stick to what is real, and don't make things up to suit your arguments.
James Marshall
41   Posted 27/07/2010 at 14:03:35

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Top 4 IS a possibility. But then so is winning the league.

Everyone starts on zero points as far as I recall from years gone by.

Doesn't mean we won't get relegated.

And it doesn't mean we won't win the league.

It's all hot air as usual, and top notch hot air from you know who!
Ciarán McGlone
42   Posted 27/07/2010 at 14:16:33

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Steve,
I didn't make things up... I made a suggestion that Villa would sign players. I didn't present it as fact.

Are you suggesting that any speculation is out of bounds?

On that basis - the majority of this site would disappear.
Christian Yandell
43   Posted 27/07/2010 at 15:52:20

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Ciarán how did I know it would be you....Yawn.

Please read again

'Getting behind the team, encouraging and inspiring whilst demonstrating we are the best fans in the world just might change things!'

Believe it or not supporting EFC does not start and end with a few barbed comments on TW.

My comments were a call to action to all the fans who actually attend the games and can make a difference.

Starting to generate a positive feeliing amongst supporters on here that attend the games might make a difference eh fella? Or does the all knowing Ciarán know better as per...
Ciarán McGlone
44   Posted 27/07/2010 at 16:46:32

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I'm all for supporting the team from the terraces...in fact I don't think I've ever heard anyone complaining about how the club is run, or who we should've bought during a match....but then again I'm probably to busy watching the match.

But if you think it's a major problem - then fair play to you for making a clear stand against it.
Christian Yandell
45   Posted 28/07/2010 at 09:04:55

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Ciarán, is it possible that you maybe just argue just for the sake of it mate?

To say you have never heard anyone complaining about how the club is run or who we should have signed at a match is at best naive but more likely just so you can continue on trying to instigate an argument!

Every time I am at Goodison, plus pre and post match around the ground, people are moaning about BK hiding our cash for signings or not trying hard enought to sell the club, or DM and his formations, substitutions or the design of the kit etc etc.

All of the above is what football is all about and it happens at every ground every match day so unless you are in some private box somwhere....

However I get that and I am not trying to change that.

My point is that if the fans belive (which I think the majority of us do) that we can achieve something this season, based on our form at the end of last season and the fact that DM believes this is his best ever squad ? and I mean really believe and get behind the team ? you must know that can have a huge effect on the players and can be the difference between one point and three points or coming from behind to snatch a draw.

This is not a prove Ciarán right or wrong, in fact you have no significance to me whatsoever to be honest mate, I am not intersted in a personal duel. I just want the club I have supported for the last 27 years (I am 33 now) to win something, anything, and surely that is now whithin reach. (currently on bended knee with my hands together).
Ciarán McGlone
46   Posted 28/07/2010 at 09:47:51

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I don't agree with anything you've said on this thread Christian... apart from your very last line. We have been supporting the club a similar time and we are due it. However, the realities of current Permier League life is something that needs to be taken into consideration. This league is not sponsored by Walt Disney and fairytales.

That is not simply a matter of arguing for arguments sake... it's what is commonly known as a contrary opinion.
Christian Yandell
47   Posted 28/07/2010 at 15:23:22

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Ciarán, I promised myself not to get into this any further but you really have surpassed yourself on this occasion and I can not help but ask.......

Do you belive EFC finishing in the top four could now only now happen in a fairytale?? Wow!

Did we not finish in the top 4 with a much inferior squad? How much of that was achieved with hard work and a great team ethic?

Well as far as I can tell we now have much more quality, a great strength in depth along with the same hard work and and team ethic.

It must be a vey dark world you live in my friend.

To finish then you do not agree that the crowd has any bearing on the result of the match. You do not agree that the topics listed in my previous post are discussed on match day.

We clearly attend different Goodison Parks.

But asuming you do support the same team as me lets watch how the season unfolds and one of us can return to TW and eat humble pie (which if it is you should taste pretty sweet as it will mean we have had a great season).

COYB
Ciarán McGlone
48   Posted 28/07/2010 at 16:01:56

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Christian,

I have my doubts that you've been following this thread very closely... What actually stirred me into posting on this thread was the arrogance about the top four being 'nailed on'... or even that we could win the league. Even your erroneous suggestion that we had 'title winning form' in the second half of last season. We didn't. That's a fact.

We are not going to win the league... and we will struggle to make the top four. Of course it's possible ? I've never suggested it wasn't. You appear to be making my opinions up for me.

The entirely of your last post bore no relation to anything I've said on this thread. Not the first time on this thread you've fabricated a position.

I'd be quite happy to be proved wrong... and if we waltzed to a top four place next season, I'd be delighted. You don't seem to be able to grasp that concept. For you, I'm just a miserable git who is pointing out the negatives ? you seem to think I want us to do badly. Which is aptly summed up by your puerile suggestion that I don't support the same team as you.

You couldn't be further from the truth.

ps: The people around me at matches, if they are complaining, tend to complain about the players on the pitch ? not the fictional ones we could've bought or how the board run the club... that tends to be the stuff of forums.
Christian Yandell
49   Posted 28/07/2010 at 17:14:47

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Ciarán, you are one taxing individual.

People thinking / hoping we can win the league is optimisum not arrogance although you will see from my previous (non relevant of course) posts that I feel a top 4 finish more realistic.

My original post, was I belive entirely relevant. After you took personal issue with my comments, my subsequent posts were in response to your comments. So please explain where I have strayed on to a completely unrelated topic??? Or 'fabricated a position'.

Also I was trying to make a joke regards our differing match day experiences when I said 'if we support the same team'. So no real need to get your knickers in a twist over that one fella.
James Flynn
50   Posted 28/07/2010 at 20:35:48

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Brendan (35) - Sorry, been busy or would have replied sooner. So . . . . . .

"James, my boy, you need a history lesson"
Always willing to learn. Let's see what you've taught me.

"1) Man Utd were buying and paying high transfer fees for top players long before Ferguson took over".

Hmmmmmmmm. That so? In anything remotely like how Chelsea, ManC, Real Madrid and Barcelona do today? Or the way Ferguson and Wenger turned their teams into cash cows? That's not true and you know it.

As old as pro football is in England, I accept that any number of teams over the last century threw money at another to buy a player.

Does this ManU chapter of your history lesson include how Ferguson built and sustained the ManU powerhouse, now into its 3rd decade, beyond the way I said he has? If so, I'd like to hear it.

"2) The 'tree' was planted in 2002, not 2004".

Excellent and thank you. So, the roots and trunk are 2 years deeper, thicker, and stronger than I thought. Happy to be wrong.

"3) Have a little bit more respect for Wenger and stop your puerile calling of him 'Froggy.' He is the best manager in the league bar none".

If by respect you mean the way he keeps bringing young talent? I respect him, since I'm in here touting DM for doing just that. That excepted, Fuck Him for the Frog he is.

I don't like France. That's that. And he represents all I dislike about France. Really, not one Englishman is good enough to play for Arsenal? Do you agree with him on that, Brendan? Not one? One? In the whole of England? One? And he displays this disdain right there in London.

Then to his "Stylish" method of football. Please, don't make me laugh. When he had the most talent, he (fair enough) had some great, winning teams. This peaked 5 years ago or so, right? Funny his alleged "System" only works when his teams have the most talent. And no English, apparently.

He's been successful. But his time is past and almost up. I don't care how many more years he stays at Arsenal. We've seen the best of him.
And just in case I've gotten away from your point, let me re-iterate, Fuck Him. More gently, I like England. I don't like France. Best I can do.

P.S. No offense to actual frogs, as it appears they bathe more than the average Frenchman. So there's that.

"4) I am not an emigrant, as you called me on another thread".

No offense intended. If there was any taken, I apologize.
James Flynn
51   Posted 28/07/2010 at 21:12:42

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Ciaran (37) - "You've now had two people tell you that your comparison between Ferguson and Moyes is nonsense".

Yeah, so?
Richard Porter
52   Posted 28/07/2010 at 23:50:44

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James, you are aware you support a team with several Frenchmen in it, aren't you? Or when Saha, Distin or Gueye get the ball, do you boo? Or are they ok French, whereas the rest of the ENTIRE COUNTRY is horrible?

Incidentally, am I right in thinking that you're an American? Might want to consider the support your founding fathers received from the French...

"I don't like France"

It's Ok, based on what you display of your personality on here, I shouldn't imagine France would like you very much either. I certainly don't.
John Daley
53   Posted 29/07/2010 at 00:33:27

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James, a quick run through of some of Alex Ferguson's bargain basement buys:

Andy Cole: £7M (record British transfer fee at the time)

Ruud Van Nistleroy: £19M (British record transfer fee at the time)

Juan Sebastion Veron: £28.1M (record British transfer fee at the time)

Rio Ferdinand: £30M (record British transfer fee at the time)

Dimitar Berbatov: £30M

Owen Hargreaves: £17M

Michael Carrick: £18M

Wayne Rooney: £30M

As you say, it definitely does appear that good old Fergie builds his teams by finding "inexpensive talent"...
Brendan O'Doherty
54   Posted 29/07/2010 at 01:19:37

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Yes John, you can go back to people like Gary Birtles and Danny Wallace, and numerous others who don't immediately spring to mind, to show when Utd paid high (at the time) transfer fees for players. They were always after the top players, which was the point I was making to James. He of course compares that with the amount of money Utd are spending these days, without taking into account that it's all relative. James, I'm afraid, is one of the Premier League nouveau; there was a league before the PL which he would do well to remember, hence the history lesson.

"Fuck Him for the Frog he is".

"No offense to actual frogs, as it appears they bathe more than the average Frenchman."

These comments show you up to be the narrow minded xenophobic racist that you actually are James, as you've now shown on several occasions. Irish, Germans, French, who's going to be the next target of your poisoned tongue?

I suspect you are going to feel the wrath of the editors on your back sometime soon, if you fail to tone your comments down a bit.
James Flynn
55   Posted 29/07/2010 at 03:13:47

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JD (53) - My man.

Must admit, that's an awesome starting 11. Wait, only 8. My bad. All the more awesome still. And I know now why Rooney is such a natural. Apparently, he was helping Fergie win titles while still in the womb! What a guy.

What years did he make these purchases? 86, 88, 90, 93, 95, 99 maybe? Come on, stop me here. He made those purchases after, AFTER, turning ManU into the powerhouse it remains. I'll never dispute he'd toss the money around once he had it. But he didn't build and sustain ManU on big-money purchases.

Unless you can do this for me. A nice 10 year window; 1986-1995. ManU - lots of Silverware, Fergie the Great established, etc. List all the big-money purchases he won all that Silverware on the back of. Do that for me. However, if you can't provide such a list, please explain how he was winning back then.

What I'm saying is that DM has the similar and rare trait of Ferguson's of recognizing talent while it's young and cheap to purchase. How many others running big clubs can do that? Few, correct?

With that, this year could be the start down the road to where Ferguson got ManU. DM says this is the best team he's had. He's also said he thinks this team can take a run at the League. I believe him.

We first have to get winning, just like SAF all those years ago. Because money follows winning. Always has and will. I say this year is the beginning of that era and, damn right, I use Ferguson as the template for how to get it done.

The 1986-1995 list, please.
James Flynn
56   Posted 29/07/2010 at 04:09:26

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Really Brendan (54) - Again with the racism editorial. And a narrow-minded xenophobe to boot? Haha, you're funny. The only reason this "racist" business appears and re-appears is you.

You've gone down this road with me a couple of times now, junior. My rare one- or two-word remarks upset your delicate condition, so? An easy fix. You see my name, don't read anything that comes after it. However, if you do not take that advice, let's move on.

"Hence the history lesson". Is that so? Well, lesson me this, historian. JD listed 8 names (some great ones, but didn't disprove my argument) all signed in the last 9-10 years AFTER Ferguson had built his powerhouse. Right? So then, 1986-1995 - List all the big money signings that won the ManU Silverware to that point. And, failing that, explain just how Fergie did it. Should be easy, me being nouveau and you being all historical.

In fact, let me pitch in (in my simple nouveau way of course). He built his teams on "find them young and cheap". Which is why I use him as the example for what DM can do at EFC, since he too clearly has the eye for finding them and signing them up cheap. The first step to building a winner, which we could have this season.

Then the money follows, which it always has done with winning teams. Then, who knows, a few years down the road, Moyes has the dough to make that one big signing.

Who's to say it can't be done? Ferguson did it. Unless, of course, you come up with 1986-1995 list. 10 years, Brendan. That list needs to be extensive and expensive. Do better than JD did with the 21st century list, anyway.
Tony Hughes
57   Posted 29/07/2010 at 07:34:08

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Alex Ferguson was given four years before United became a winning team; I think now, with Moyesie saying this is the best squad he's had in over eight years in charge, then the pressure is really on this season to deliver a trophy and/or Champions League football. If they don't do it this season, it appears he will have done all he can do with what resources that are available.

I think it will be down to the club to get their finger out if we have any ambition to cling on to being a big club. The board have got away with it for the past couple of close seasons and in the grand scheme of things spent fuck all ? only what has come into the club via transfers.

Ciarán McGlone
58   Posted 29/07/2010 at 09:31:18

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No Englishmen play for Arsenal? And that's why you hate the French?

Apart from again being wrong on a basic footballing fact ? you also appear to have deeper issues.
Brendan O'Doherty
59   Posted 29/07/2010 at 13:14:53

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"You've gone down this road with me a couple of times now, junior. My rare one- or two-word remarks upset your delicate condition, so? An easy fix. You see my name, don't read anything that comes after it."

What utter and complete bollocks that statement is. And JUNIOR? Now you're a patronising git as well it seems. I suspect you are a lot younger than me, so maybe you could stop talking out of your hole.

As Richard Porter says above (#52), based on the display of your personality on here, you are not winning many friends. Your words and general rantings against people who are from different countries for which you have an irrational dislike, speak volumes.
Ben Jones
60   Posted 29/07/2010 at 11:31:31

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Ciaran, were you on Eggheads recently?
John Daley
61   Posted 29/07/2010 at 18:00:36

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James, I was listing some recent signings the sour faced Scot has made because then there might be a chance that you had actually heard of some of them.

As Brendan has pointed out previously, Man United have always been a team that spends big. Alex Ferguson never changed this template by bringing in "inexpensive young talent". He threw plenty of cash at the problem.

Seeing as though you asked so nicely, here are some AF signings between 1986-1995 that were considered big buys at the time:

Brian Mclair: £850,000 (1987)
Steve Bruce: £825,000 (1987)
Mark Hughes: £1.8m (1988)
Neil Webb: £1.2m (1989)
Danny Wallace: £1.2m (1989)
Paul Ince: £1.5m (1989)
Gary Pallister: £2.3m (1989)
Paul Parker: £2m (1991)
Roy Keane: £3.75m (1993)
Andy Cole: £7m (1995)
Karel Poborsky: £3.6m (1995)
Richard Porter
62   Posted 29/07/2010 at 18:49:36

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And if you cross-reference John's list with the British transfer record:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progression_of_British_football_transfer_fee_record

... you can compare those fees with the British transfer record at the time. Andy Cole was the record signing at the time, and Keane was bought for 68% of the record. The equivalent this summer would be to sign someone for £54m.

John Daley
63   Posted 29/07/2010 at 18:42:27

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Also James, I guess, being over in America, you may not have heard of Alan Partridge. However, you certainly remind me of him.

Partridge: "Please don't write in saying that's racist... because it's not"

Partridge: "No, that is not racist. French people chomp on onions and go 'hoh-he-hoh-he-hoh' ".

Partridge: "Did you see the match?"
Builder: "Which one?"
Partridge: "Dunno".
James Flynn
64   Posted 31/07/2010 at 20:24:06

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JD (63) - My man.

I really don't care who thinks I'm racist; especially a "White-on-White"*** racist. Hahaha. That is, I read the word racist in your post and assume you're in here supporting my most sensitive, delicate flower Brendan.

As far as the rest of the post. First time I've read something needing Closed Captioning in English.
James Flynn
65   Posted 31/07/2010 at 20:38:50

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JD - (61) - Well-done. Neatly put, by the by "that were considered big buys at the time". How convenient to not have to prove that. But, I'll accept what you're saying on it's face.

So, let's get back to my main point. You've given 20 names. Out of 100s played for Ferguson in 25 years. 20 names. How does this disprove what I say about how he built and maintained ManU all these years and what DM appears to be doing now with EFC?

I never say money doesn't have a place in winning or sustaining a winner. The backbone of SAF's operation has been the organization itself, augmented by bringing in VanNistelroy, Rooney, etc.

I'm saying and will say that DM has EFC to the point where it's in the hunt for honors this season and he's said so. We win (and we both know there's a fair chance this season), money will come; as it always follows winning around.

DM can spend more on finding/developing, more money for holding onto the next Rooney or 2 instead of having to sell to buy, winning more, more money etc. And we're off on the same path Ferguson took and still has.
John Daley
66   Posted 31/07/2010 at 21:24:31

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James, you talk nonsense sometimes. You now expect me to reel off every player Alex Ferguson has ever purchased? How can you even attempt to describe how Ferguson built his early Utd teams when you probably had no notion of football at all in the eighties?

He never went out and bought a load of young players at bargain prices as you keep suggesting. He never has. United have been one of the biggest spending clubs in the British game ever since the Munich air disaster brought them huge public sympathy and international interest. It's just that in the time between Busby and Ferguson they never achieved any real success from splashing said cash.

The fact i say "at the time" seems pretty straightforward to me as well. It doesn't need proving. The figures and the dates are there. For example, £2.3m for Gary Pallister was a massive fee that made him the most expensive defender in British football in 1989. He was the most expensive defender in Britain "at the time". £2.3m these days would be a bargain but back then it was a huge outlay for a central defender.

As Richard Porter says, you can easily look it up on shitty wikipedia and numerous other web sites and see how Utd have often broken, or come near to breaking, the British transfer record if you refuse to believe what i'm saying.
James Flynn
67   Posted 31/07/2010 at 23:14:06

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JD - How did this turn into an argument?

I never said money doesn't figure into improving the team. Never. I'm a born and raised NY Yankee fan; the team that started "Throw money at it" in professional sports decades ago. And I don't mean at the "big buys at the time" low prices you posted.

OK. You listed 20 names (which I shouldn't have asked for, as it moved us away from what I was getting at).

Of course I don't want you to call the roll since SAF arrived at ManU. I am saying that more than anything, he sustained that Powerhouse by finding young talent, tossing it into competition and skimming off what rose to the top. Nothing else.

He augmented these with "Big-money" signings? Fine. In fact, great. There's the template I believe Moyes has finally poised EFC to follow.

I brought it up not because Ferguson came up with something new. There's nothing new in what he did (does) and where DM's finally got our guys.

It's that he's sustained it for so long and consistently. Really, 20 years in the hunt, at least, and winning so many times? Who else has done it from 1990 to now? AND he's stacked youth yet again going into this season? Really, WTF?

From the little time I'm Toffee, Moyes appears cut from the same cloth. We're just in SAF's 1986-1995 phase. Not a bad place to be, eh?

John Daley
68   Posted 01/08/2010 at 00:27:15

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No argument James. Just a difference of opinion (as per usual it seems!). I've forgotten what the original topic of this thread actually was now anyway.
John Daley
69   Posted 01/08/2010 at 00:27:15

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No argument James. Just a difference of opinion (as per usual it seems!). I've forgotten what the original topic of this thread actually was now anyway.

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