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Managerial merry-go-rounds

Comments (96)

With Martin O?Neill?s departure, is it just me or did anyone else breathe a huge sigh of relief that in a parallel universe, this could have been Moyes after selling or about to sell one of his star players. Milner, granted, wanted to go... but did they try hard enough in the same way as Bill and Davey did with Mikel? Sometimes an initial pound note gain is outweighed by the destabilisation of the team spirit.

A club in tatters that promised so much ? rewind 12 months and who does it remind you of??? Moyes nearly went ...and again, Bill?s hard work behind the scenes picked him up, then got his contract signed, leaving Hull (away) as our rock -ottom moment. We survived, came back stronger... and are now in a real position of strength to push on.

So us Bluenoses utter "There but for the grace of..." etc etc. With relief, I can now chuckle at the next item on Sky, the potential LFC buyer, a Syrian ex-footballer, who is described as by no means a billionaire but quite wealthy ? or in other words, he?s not the messiah just a very naughty boy. Please let the deal be a financially corrupt Middle East disaster that is secretly funding an invasion of Israel to claim back Palestine. No wonder Yossi got sold...


David Price, Stockport     Posted 09/08/2010 at 17:54:21

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Ian McDowell
1   Posted 09/08/2010 at 20:55:51

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To be honest, I can't see what all the fuss is with Milner. Why do City want him so badly? I can understand Villa trying to get the best price but if you got £20 million and Ireland for Milner, you would be laughing. I don't even rate Milner in the top 10 midfielders in the league ? certainly he is no better than Fellaini, Pienaar or Arteta.
Charles King
2   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:05:58

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I've just put on another post the frequency of David Moyes's name being bandied about on one of the Villa sites and wondered what our man would do if Randy Lerner waved a contract under his nose.
Alan Kirwin
3   Posted 09/08/2010 at 20:56:53

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It doesn't take much to rattle the cages of Kenwright haters, and no doubt some will find their way on here with the same old same old, 24/7, Kings Dock, da da da.

On the face of it our chairman has cocked up in the past on more than one thing. But fact also is that he has overseen the club's re-ascendance, stability, best squad in 25 years, consistent praise from his manager, consistent praise from his players and consistent praise from other chairmen, managers and pundits.

I'm afraid they can't all be wrong. The latest to praise the chairman is Arteta and Moyes. Kenwright plays the "people" thing better than almost anybody. How many half-decent managers, let alone good managers like Moyes, do you think would stick around in the tight financial straights that we find ourselves?

O'Neill has just left Villa. Why do you suppose that is? Why do you suppose that almost everybody that comes into contact with Kenwright, with the notable exception of Paul Gregg, has only good things to say about him.

If there is anybody who really does think that Kenwright is not an asset to Everton, despite his mistakes and despite our lack of billions, then I suggest they consult Arteta and Moyes. It is self evident that, without the efforts of Bill Kenwright, neither gentleman would now be at this club.

Some will never stop bleating and will always, ALWAYS, find fault. Fault is everywhere and it's relative. Fact is, most fans, most managers and most players would love to have a chairman like Kenwright. That's a fact by the way. Not from what I read in the papers, but from the views of footy friends who follow teams as diverse as Leeds, Chelsea, Man Utd, Newcastle, West Ham, Arsenal, Brighton & Wolves.

Yes, the world could be perfect, if this, if that, if the other. But the real world could always be worse. In some cases,much worse.
David Price
4   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:07:59

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Too right Ian, think the Milner cash might be going back to the owner, why else quit. The relationship between Manager and Chairman is key, we are fortunate that it isn't a problem for our club.
Brian Waring
5   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:08:19

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David, O'Neill was supposed to be okay with Milner leaving in the end. I read it had something to do with him saying that if Ashley young was to be sold , that he would resign.Maybe Young is on his way out as well, Spurs were sniffing round him.
Roger Domal
6   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:22:52

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MON's net spend while at Villa was a lot more than Moyes was given, and what did he have to show for it. A WEmbley final. That's it. He dicked around with Europe and insulted the competition, and then he took his squad down the tubes two years in a row. Yes, he is a quality manager, but our sure is better, and can pick a diamond in the rough better than anyone in the whole of the Premier League. Plus, AV is now no longer a strong side, and that makes our job easier this season.
Gerry Quinn
7   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:20:10

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Alan #3, balanced opinion, well said - love him or hate him, seems he is popular with those in the know.

On a different note: I personally find it hard to imagine spending years and years building a strong squad through sheer hard work and patience as Moyes has done. Does anyone honestly believe he would drop what he currently rules over to go somewhere else and start again ? even with the carrots of money dangled?
Mike Green
8   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:15:58

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Without sounding too cynical is part of City's pursuit of Milner a jolly good way of destabilising a competitor? It did the job on us last season, didn't it?

Off the top of my head if you consider the teams around them and players they've gone after (s for signed):

Everton ? Lescott (s) and Arteta
Chelsea ? Terry
Man Utd ? Tevez (s)
Liverpool - Gerrard and Torres
Arsenal ? Toure (s)
Villa ? Barry (s) and Milner (close...)
Spurs ? no-one?

IMO When you look at O'Neill's parting statement, he thanks everyone bar the Chairman... so, whatever it is, it's down to Lerner and I would imagine it's not being given the transfer money for the Milner sale too.

As for the chances of Moyes going over there...... why?
Dan Brierley
9   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:14:49

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There is no doubt about it. He walked, as he knew his Board were meddling in first team affairs, and have not supported him in his quest to take the club forward, even though they certainly have the finances to do so. I think it's a sad day for football in general, as he has been excellent for Villa.

Lerner was touted as a success story on here last year, and then pushes out the one who has taken the club forward. How are those players going to feel now? Another example of how a billionaire owner is NOT the answer, as if we haven't had enough examples already...

But that said, maybe it's too early to judge. What if Lerner brings someone in who takes them to glory? I am sure the fans won't be complaining too much.

Alan Barry
10   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:21:37

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I feel sorry for O'Neill and Villa players and fans, today they lost a great manager, he didn't want to lose Barry but he did, he didn't want to lose Milner and now Young is probably on his way. All this is obviously disheartening for a manager to see young players whose only loyalty is in money and silverware.

We have been blessed with the loyalty of Rodwell, Cahill and Arteta this summer and like all other true blues I can feel it in my bones that we can accomplish something this season worthy of being written into the Everton history books.

Karl Masters
11   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:13:05

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I read a while back that Lerner had not given Villa a single penny, but just underwritten and guaranteed a debt that had shot up to around £80m. No wonder he wants some of that back!

I have criticised BK frequently, especially over Kirkby which was an appalling error that thankfully never happened, the Kings Dock ( which was a disaster for us ) and the amateurish way the Club has operated off the field.

I have, however, always been grateful for his support of Moyes, who is a superb Manager, albeit I don't think BK could afford to sack him on the occasions he might have been tempted.

In recent times I have come to appreciate BK a bit more. Villa is a great Club to compare us to, very similar in size in recent times with similar issues. Doug Ellis re-built Villa Park and trumps Bill on that one. He also kept them debt free even though the fans screamed for his head and eventually he gave in. Lerner has come in and for a while looked the perfect owner, but after today you have to wonder if the Chickens have come home to roost now. 80 million of them!

You get nothing for nothing in this life as even Man City and Chelsea will discover eventually . Let's face it, even what Chelsea have won and what Man City might win is empty in my eyes. They have just thrown distasteful amounts of money around and ruined things for others. Nothing whatsoever to admire there. If we win the League it would be worth ten Chelsea titles. If you asked 100 fans of other Clubs around the country who they would rather win the League and in what manner, a minimum 90% would say the Everton way as opposed to the New money Chavs of Stamford Bridge and Eastlands.

Keep the faith comrades!
Dave Southon
12   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:31:46

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DM will not be the new Aston Villa manager.

Not a chance, nope, nada, zilch.

Of course I expect to see his name in the betting and without doubt the Daily Mail will give her opinion but any money placed on him is a complete and utter waste.
Kevin Tully
13   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:32:14

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Spot on Karl, most Chelsea fans don't even remember how shite they used to be. Their history only started after Abromovich. It would be a hollow victory for me if Moyes was given £200M to win the Title.
Brendan McLaughlin
14   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:32:35

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I just can't help but laugh out loud. Benitez finally goes and the Redshite appoint fucking Woy Hodgson! Two weeks later, Martin O'Neill becomes available. I think they must have forgotten to renew their deal with the devil in writing by the agreed date!
Tom Fearon
15   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:31:19

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Well said, Alan (#3). The mutual respect that Moyes and Kenwright have for eachother is at the very heart of the resurgence in our club's fortunes and it is something for which we should be grateful. Moyes is prepared to operate within the financial constraints that Kenright is forced to set. He has done so with remarkable success. Villa supporters will be envious.

But no doubt the regular TW contributors whose visceral hatred of Kenwright cannot be contained will soon appear to tell us that anyone would be better. It is a good thing that this site offers the opportunity for these emotional spasms. A cheap though not very effective form of therapy.

David O'Keefe
16   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:52:08

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Alan Kirwan this is a thread about Aston Villa and what do you do? Bring up Bill Kenwright give it a rest.
Rob Fox
17   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:56:14

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I can't believe anyone would be seriously worried Moyes might be tempted to go to Villa. At this moment in time there is no way he would go anywhere.
Brendan McLaughlin
18   Posted 09/08/2010 at 21:58:43

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David (16)
The OP was all about the part played by Kenwright in ensuring that Moyes & Arteta stayed. So Alan is bang on.
Karl Jones
19   Posted 09/08/2010 at 22:00:09

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No doubt the Daily Mail will have a story about "wantaway" David Moyes wanting to be the next Aston Villa manager as his son/daughter/wife etc can only get the best treatment for their mysterious illness at Smethwick General hospital. Unnamed journalist of course!
David O'Keefe
20   Posted 09/08/2010 at 22:06:52

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Yes Brendan, Bill is great because....he got Moyes and Arteta to stay. Hmm I'll let that one slide.

What I won't let slide is Bill is great because Randy Lerner forced MON out? Really I thought MON threw his toys out of the pram because Randy with some justification refused to allow him to blow millions on mediocre players.

Does this make Randy a bad chairman and Bill a good chairman? I don't think we're comparing like with like, so its a moot point.
Dick Anderson
21   Posted 09/08/2010 at 22:11:11

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Martin O'Neill had more money to work with at Aston Villa then Moyes has at Everton.

But what Moyes has at Everton is the final word. Villa are gonna sell Milner no matter what he says. Thats why he quit.

Say what you want about Kenwright but he would never sell a player without Moyes agreeing the deal.

Even Rooney and Lescott were probably only sold once Moyes had reluctantly given the ok.

The great thing about Kenwright is that he lets Moyes manage the squad. Sure Moyes has a tight budget to work from but you know nobody leaves or comes into Everton without Moyes stamp of approval.

That power is probably why Moyes has agreed to stay at Everton so long. Clearly Martin O'Neill is desperate for that kind of power but he couldn't have it at Villa.
Julian Wait
22   Posted 09/08/2010 at 22:12:00

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#17 Rob - agree
Alan Kirwin
23   Posted 09/08/2010 at 22:17:00

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David Okeefe #16 - This is Toffeeweb. We don't have threads about Aston Villa. I suggest you read the article and all the subsequent comments for various clues on the topic.

As for rest, I've always regarded MON, and indeed Aston Villa, as overrated and one dimensional.
David O'Keefe
24   Posted 09/08/2010 at 22:27:28

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Ah, sarcasm the lowest form of wit... still, any excuse to defend BK. I look forward to you defending a man who has provided his manager with no net spend for three years to Lerner ? a man who allowed MO'N to blow £80 million on mediocre players, but I'll leave that for another day.
Iain Love
25   Posted 09/08/2010 at 22:15:47

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O'Neill has spit his dummy out of the pram... typical! I always thought he was a bottler. He's built a decent team at Villa and could have / should have done better with them, now presumably he's gone because he didn't want to sell some of his players. Boo-fucking-hoo... get real.

At least Moyes realises that shit happens and cracks on with it, it's called a 'can do' attitude. Hopefully now Villa will be in a bit of disarray and it's one less rival for us. This is shaping up to be a better and better season for us and, as Dave says, hopefully the RS new owners will fuck up too. Although I do think Woy is a decent manager.

Brendan McLaughlin
26   Posted 09/08/2010 at 22:29:24

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# David (20)
I wasn't making any comment on how good/bad Kenwright is. I was only making the point that Alan was certainly not straying "off-topic" given the heavily referenced Kenwright opening post.

As for your O'Neil "mediocre players" comment. Milner bought for £10/12 million about to be sold for possibly double that. No further comment required!
David O'Keefe
27   Posted 09/08/2010 at 22:42:08

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Brendan, you're right, but on the mediocre player point you named Milner and that's it.

What I do object is to is Alan's tedious goading of those that don't share his love of BK. I do find his comments amusing in light of the fact that he told BK's critics to get out more and stop talking about him (on another BK thread), yet third comment in he seeks to start the whole merry-go-round off again.

Frank Nolan
28   Posted 09/08/2010 at 22:57:12

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Spot on Alan Kirwin. The BK haters are these days fewer in number but they are still out there and I've got a question for them.

Just what is it about BK that you despise?

For me this guy is a Goodison legend, rescuing us from the depths of despair following the nightmare that was Kopite Johnson. It's taken a while, but 9 years into his reign we have a squad which has most of us drooling . BK's role in securing Mikel's future at the club was critical.
Brendan McLaughlin
29   Posted 09/08/2010 at 23:08:32

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OK, David, but without going into the unnecessary detail of who we rate/don't rate on the Villa team. mediocre players don't finish 6th for three consecutive seasons.

And for the third (and final time) the OP invited comment on Kenwright's role and Alan duly commented. I mean if giving your opinion one way or the other on a thread that specifically asks for views on a particular topic is seen as "goading" then why bother with a fans forum at all?
Charlie Percival
30   Posted 09/08/2010 at 23:31:43

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Roy Hodgson is ten times the manager Martin O'Neil is. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs a reality check.
Brendan McLaughlin
31   Posted 09/08/2010 at 23:33:18

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Jesus, now we're complimenting the redshite's management. How much have I had to drink tonight?
David O'Keefe
32   Posted 09/08/2010 at 23:37:16

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"It doesn't take much to rattle the cages of Kenwright haters, and no doubt some will find their way on here with the same old same old, 24/7, Kings Dock, da da da."

Goading, perhaps, but unnecessary all the same.
Andy Crooks
33   Posted 09/08/2010 at 23:32:13

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Alan Kirwin, I am not a Kenwright hater and I appreciate that you try to provide some balance. But.... is his main defence that he has kept David Moyes content? Is that really it?

David Moyes is in a hugely paid job which he will never better. Bill Kenwright is the chairman of the club of his dreams. They are loyal to each other. Where could either go after Everton?

May I dare to suggest that there will be life for Everton when they have gone? Or even more outrageously suggest, that things might have been better without them? Sorry, that was blasphemous.

Richard Reeves
34   Posted 09/08/2010 at 23:55:31

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O'Neill is a good manager to a certain level but with the type of football that he has his teams play (Leicester, Celtic and Villa), he can only take his team so far. If his board are going to hold back on any money from the sale of any of their players then they probably know what most of us do and have other managers in mind but there is absolutely no way Moyes would even think of it.
Jimmy Hacking
35   Posted 10/08/2010 at 00:13:02

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I always had a feeling the wheels would come off at Villa this season; three consecutive 6th place finishes is very impressive IMO, I certainly don't remember the massive wads of cash O'Neill has apparently been spending according to some of you lot.

The formula at that club was very clearly becoming stale. And with no big signings on the horizon, even if MON had stayed I reckon they'd have come 8th or 9th at best. Certainly no match for us. COYB
Julian Wait
36   Posted 10/08/2010 at 00:18:47

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Hughes for Villa. Merry-go-round indeed.

Anyone heard the one about the Scotsman (DM), the Irishman (MON), Englishman (RH) and the Welshman (MH)?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/astonvilla/7935765/Aston-Villa-spark-tug-of-war-for-Mark-Hughes-as-Martin-ONeill-quits-on-eve-of-new-season.html

Villa's age bill $21m more than Everton's, and 85% of their turnover.
Julian Wait
37   Posted 10/08/2010 at 00:21:07

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As for MON's transfers, through 2009 they are here:

http://www.astonvilla.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=7501688
Brendan McLaughlin
38   Posted 10/08/2010 at 00:26:40

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Andy (32)
Actually not so much blasphemous as pointless.
Eugene Ruane
39   Posted 10/08/2010 at 00:46:58

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I'm...shocked!

Alan Kirwan on TW at 9.00pm on a Monday night?

Hasn't the ("ahhh...siiiigh") world-weary voice of reason got anything better to do than post in praise of BK?

Alan I thought you were the man who gets out and about and 'engages' with people.

I thought you were someone who has 'a life' (coz...that's what you told us)

As I remember, on a BK post a couple of weeks back, you made out you were a cross between John Noakes and the Great Gatsby.

A zest for life, out and about, hither and thither and not going to waste your time debating with idiots (remember - when you posted THREE times in the same thread to tell us that?)

You told us you didn't waste his time with the snarling drooling sheep (or whatever it was).

With those (like me), so stupid they can't see BK for the astute, honest businessman he REALLY is.

You told us all you were bored of the bile yet...here you are, seemingly provoking people to respond.

I'm hugely confused.

What went wrong - barbeque with the beautiful people get cancelled?

Jet-ski bust?

To be fair, there is huge entertainment value with someone posting so often to say they can't be arsed posting.

And you do the 'forgive them Lord for they know not what they do' thing very well (complete bollocks but you do it well).

I should also add that I DO enjoy your attempts at sleight-of-hand.

Your use of 'on the face of it' was genius ("On the face of it, our chairman has cocked up in the past on more than one thing but..").

Brilliant!

You could actually have a lot of fun applying it to different people.

"On the face of it the Taliban seem extreme but..."

"On the face of it Kim Il Jong is a bit of a control freak but..."

And I love the old 'they can't ALL be wrong' argument,

The 'certainty' of this statement no doubt dupes quite a few, despite it being so obviously piss-weak (for those who believe when of a lot of people agree on something, it's 'right', I give you Scientology, Fascism and The Bay City Rollers).

Come to think of it, I bet you'd have been one of those in the 30's shouting 'WARMONGER' at Churchill each time he warned parliament the Germans were re-arming and looking for war

(nb: THEY were all wrong...too)

Another great bit of sleight-of-hand is to refer to 'same old'

"Oh no, not that SAME OLD thing about.." - insert subject you want to go away (were you shaking your head when you wrote that? Were you tutting?)

And the sleight of hand goes on

Lies become 'mistakes', the contrary opinions of others are 'bleats' etc blah

It's all designed to murky the water and deceive and I'm sure a few non-book readers ARE convinced.

You'll have to do a lot better though, if you want to get the snarling, drooling, savage, animalistic sheep to behave like nice, cuddly, docile, 'Alan makes a lot of good points' sheep.

Enjoy the Rio Festival! (ie: TW)


John Daley
40   Posted 10/08/2010 at 01:13:30

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So Martin O'Neill has thrown his toys out of the pram and quit as Aston Villa boss a mere five days before the season starts. Good riddance to the speccy gadge, I say. Over the last few years, Villa have transformed from a team I couldn't give a toss about into a team I truly despise.

There have been some titanic, closely fought clashes between the blues and Villa in recent years and the two teams have often been described as "the best of the rest" in the media. However, it has always bugged me that O'Neill's outfit were continually hyped up as an exciting, adventurous, attacking team full of young English talent, who were more likely than 'battling, hardworking' Everton to break into the top 4.

Truth is, Everton have always been the better footballing side of the two. Villa, like all MO's teams, just play on the counter attack, utilising a couple of speedy wingers/forwards and a big beast of a target man. Yet, O'Neill is continually touted as being some kind of managerial genius blessed with the midas touch, rather than a more annoying Irish Dave Basset/Graham Taylor.

The reasons behind his resignation are unreported at the moment, but it is rumoured that he was unhappy at being told he had to sell players before he could buy this summer. Welcome to Moyesie's world, Martin.

Surely now would have been the time for the shit-spewing Match of The Day favourite to demonstrate this awe-inspiring managerial prowess we are continually told he picked up from playing under Clough and marks him down as a favourite to replace Ferguson, rather than running for the hills? Maybe poor Martin just couldn't bear the thought of losing Ashley Young, that little play acting pinhead he foolishly dubbed a "genius, genius" at Goodison a couple of years ago.

Whatever. I guess the point of this aimless ramble (other than Martin O'Neill being an overhyped, odiously annoying one-trick pony) is that I'm just glad we've got a manager who is prepared to roll up his sleeves, give his best and battle on regardless of the financial restraints he is being forced to operate under.

Brendan O'Doherty
41   Posted 10/08/2010 at 01:31:14

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"Roy Hodgson is ten times the manager Martin O'Neil is. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs a reality check."

I must need a reality check then. Now if it's David Moyes you are talking about.....

MON is a top man. He knew Milner was going to be sold. He must have just found out today that he wasn't getting a cent of it to spend, and so resigned on a point of principle. Just imagine for a second if last summer we had sold Lescott and DM had been told he wasn't getting any of the fee to spend... doesn't bear thinking about, does it?
Eric Myles
42   Posted 10/08/2010 at 02:03:49

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"Why do you suppose that almost everybody that comes into contact with Kenwright, with the notable exception of Paul Gregg, has only good things to say about him."

Alan #3, he's well disliked in the luvvie world, saviour of the Playhouse my arse. Seems he can still pull the wool over the fans eyes though.

Eric Myles
43   Posted 10/08/2010 at 02:07:25

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"But what Moyes has at Everton is the final word. Villa are gonna sell Milner no matter what he says. That's why he quit."

Dick #21, only 2 words to say to that: Wayne Rooney.
Jay Harris
44   Posted 10/08/2010 at 02:33:40

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Alan
"Why do you suppose that almost everybody that comes into contact with Kenwright, with the notable exception of Paul Gregg, has only good things to say about him."

You obviously don't know many people in business and in the LCC that know Kenwright well and will have nothing to do with him.

Anyway I'm bored with the subject.

I refuse to answer any questions on the subject.
Martin Mason
45   Posted 10/08/2010 at 05:46:27

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I don't get involved in the Kenwright debate as I don't know enough about what really goes on within the club, I suspect that is also true for the most vociferous of the arguers.

The Chairman appoints and manages the manager and backs him on important decisions. He also avoids getting the club into debt that it can't handle. Whatever anybody may say, he is obviously doing a lot right, as so much of what he is responsible for is going well at the moment. We are a stable and seemingly happy club with great spirit and punching way above the weight that our income gives us.

So he isn't necessarily a well loved person but why does he have to be and who cares anyway? Let's be grateful for what we have at Everton and let Villa and whoever employs him next worry about MO'N. I hope that he never ends up at Everton, I rate him a league below Moyes and let's just hope that Villa don't come after him. Davy is an integral part of Everton's character and continuing and developing relative success story. I warm to him more and more.

Keith Slinger
46   Posted 10/08/2010 at 07:19:30

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Gents, at then end of the day a lot of clubs are very envious of Everton for the way they have conducted over the these past few years and look at us as a role model.
Anthony Hughes
47   Posted 10/08/2010 at 09:32:41

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Frank, Bill Kenwright is many things to many different men... but a Goodison legend???
Alan Kirwin
48   Posted 10/08/2010 at 09:33:04

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David O'Keefe - so, let me get this right, in your world stating that others who have come into contact with an individual have regard for him/her is equal to expressing "love" oneself? Wow. Surprised you didn't throw the "apologist" word at me.

Enjoy your ignorant disdain.

As for Eugene Roane's ode (flattered, thanks), smells good, what is it? I comment when I feel like it. But yes, most definitely prefer to avoid the broken records. Know what I mean old boy? I mean, real bile and spittle takes up a bit too much time & energy.

Now, where's that double espresso I ordered with my copy of Le Monde?...
Ciarán McGlone
49   Posted 10/08/2010 at 09:49:49

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There is a threshold beyond which no manager can consistently go without spending money... O'Neill obviously realises this. Moyes will realise it eventually as well... Probably when we have to sell Rodwell to finance other signings.

Sad but true.
Kevin Gillen
50   Posted 10/08/2010 at 09:40:13

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We should be rejoicing. The top eight has just become the top seven.

I always wonder about those who promote Villa as a model of a club to be admired more than Everton. The economics of that situation astound me. How is their wage bill so much higher than ours? Would you swap their squad for ours? They seem light in so many areas.Also, O'Neill brought in Habib Beye and Fabian Delph last year and never played them! If I was Randy Lerner I wouldn't be happy.

One thing that strikes me about Everton is that disputes with the management are settled quickly. Players are either transferred out or banished to the reserves or loaned. Villa appear to have some players who are constantly at war with the management hence the "O'Neill lost the dressing room" rumours.

The other principle that seems to operate at our club is "no passengers". With the exception of Shandy Andy, I think Moyes has done a brilliant job of keeping all the players and the youngsters engaged with the principle in mind that, if you perform, you play... and if you don't, you are benched.

On the Kenwright issue, I don't love him or hate him. He has failed to deliver on a number of projects no doubt but we have had some stability and steady if small investment. He needs to do something about the ground. I took my son and his mate to the Hull match at the weekend and they were saying what a toilet Goodison was compared to the Hull ground, despite its size differential. Come on Bill, if a team the size of Hull can do it, so can we.

Colin Potter
51   Posted 10/08/2010 at 09:44:07

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Thank You, Eugene Ruane, simply a great post !!
Ciarán McGlone
52   Posted 10/08/2010 at 09:53:17

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Just read Eugene's response to Alan..

My god, I nearly wet myself.

I was refraining from commenting on Kenwright myself...but you asked for that Alan.

You cannot come out with teary pap about Kenwright, and at the same time criticise other's for presenting their own opinion.

John Noakes and the Great Gatsby.....Superb stuff Euge.
Ciarán McGlone
53   Posted 10/08/2010 at 10:27:11

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"Truth is, Everton have always been the better footballing side of the two."
-----------------

This really is quite an unbelievable statement.... Please see Eugene's excellent post on deconstruction and 'sleight of hand'..

You give a description of how Villa played as a counter attacking team ? but omit a similar analysis of our past style. We have been crying out loud about hoofball for years... That WAS our style. Last season we had the FIRST consistent glimmer of light that it is dead and buried.

To suggests that in recent times we have always been a 'better footballing side' than Villa is debatable at best and pure nonsense at worst..
Hugh Jenkins
54   Posted 10/08/2010 at 10:33:50

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Andy #33

It's not outrageous to suggest that things may be better after Kenwright and Moyes eventually leave Everton - but - it is speculative.

Factually however, no one can deny that we were much worse off before they arrived.
Craig Taylor
55   Posted 10/08/2010 at 11:15:45

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Ha, Ha and the amount of BK moaners that say they wish we had a chairman like Randy Lerner.

Well it looks like Randy could 'Lerner' a few things from BK when keeping at top manager is concerned.
Ciarán McGlone
56   Posted 10/08/2010 at 11:18:53

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Ha, Ha and the amount of BK moaners that say they wish we had a chairman like Randy Lerner.

Well it looks like Randy could 'Lerner' a few things from BK when keeping at top manager is concerned.
-----------------------

One question Craig...do you think Moyes would be able to do better with more money?

If your answer to the above is yes...then your point about Lerner is rather silly.
Alan Kirwin
57   Posted 10/08/2010 at 11:30:05

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Ciaran, what's most amusing is the adjective-strewn childish nonsense that you and other Kenwright-hating musers stoop to when your point (which is wholly theoretical by any measurement) is countered. Or in fact not even countered, but simply mitigated by a more balanced consideration.

Love, apologist, teary. Content-free drivel all of it. We've now just lost Lerner off the (ever shortening) list of saviours that Kenwright haters resort to.

Actually, help me out, what examples are left on your list of clubs/chairmen/managers who present a model that is better & we should follow. Rather than drivelise with content-free adjectives, add some content why don't you.

I can barely contain my indifference. Some of us prefer the real world to theoretical bollocks.

Alan Clarke
58   Posted 10/08/2010 at 11:25:13

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Why is it that just because Lerner is obviously not a such great owner (even though O'Neill's net spend is over £80 million), suddenly Kenwright is the messiah. The situation at Villa does not change the fact that our net spend this summer is around -£1million. It does not change the fact that he fucked up KD and led his fellow Evertonians up the garden path with Kirkby. Just because he's a nice guy does not make him a good chairman.

Also, I enjoy your posts Eugene with your wild comparisons that come from nowhere - Taliban? Kim Jong? I have no idea what any of that has to do with Kenwright.
Eric Hardman
59   Posted 10/08/2010 at 11:39:41

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It would seem that Lerner has been able to arrange for Villa's debt to rise to a certain level through guarantees but hasn't actually put any money in. Once this level is reached it's not Lerner who calls the tune but his bankers, so he has no leeway in negotiating with MON.

The situation is exactly the same at Everton. (Of course it's not BK's wealth that guarantees the rise in debt but the wealth of his faceless puppetmasters.) We obviously reached our debt ceiling some time ago so recently Moyes has had no money to spend unless he sells first, exactly like MON was faced with before he quit. Had Everton had no debt three years ago no doubt we could have spent just as much in that period.

If Moyes goes to Villa it would be frying pan to fire.

Ciarán McGlone
60   Posted 10/08/2010 at 11:44:19

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Alan,

A few facts for you. I don't hate Kenwight. You haven't 'countered' anything. People with contrary opinions do not 'stoop'. Just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them childish. Adjectives are rather important for communicating. Lerner has not been discredited in the sligtest. Lerner is a chariman who is quite similar to Kenwright, but without the bullshit and with more money... and finally because Moyes has put up with Bill's bullshit does not make Bill a superior chairman. That is the logic of stubby crayons and fingerpainting.

I have suggested on another thread that this continued and repeated discussion about Kenwright is frankly pointless. So I'll simply leave you to wallow in your scorn.

Eugene has frankly nailed you to the wall by pointing out the ridiculousness of your self-defeating position... not to mention the 'sleight of hand' you employ to conceal obvious holes in your argument. Take it like a man.
Hugh Jenkins
61   Posted 10/08/2010 at 12:15:15

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Eric#43

Why do you assume that Moyes wanted to keep Rooney?
Moyes had to build a 'Team' and keep harmony in the dressing room.

A difficult thing to do when you have a 'Supertalent' in your midst.

I think that given th money that Moyes could use to rebuild over a period of time and the potential disruptive effect of a 'Superstar' in an otherwise mediocer dressing room, Moyes realised that Rooney had to go for the overall good of the club.
John Daley
62   Posted 10/08/2010 at 12:19:27

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Ciaran, I don't recall Arsene Wenger coming out in recent seasons and condemning Everton as being an overly physical side reliant on playing the long ball game like he did quite vociferously with Villa.

"Please see Eugene's excellent post on deconstruction and sleight of hand.."

"You give a description of how Villa play as a counter attacking team but omit a similar analysis of our past style."

"You haven't 'countered' anything. People with contrary opinions do not 'stoop' "

"Adjectives are rather important for communicating"

Thanks for the lessons.

You come across as some kind of frustrated fucking tutor marking homework and leaving barely legible notes in the margin.
Ben Jones
63   Posted 10/08/2010 at 12:49:53

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The one thing I did like about Villa was their tactics. A very positive 4-3-3 system. This is a system that Everton can adapt to and I believe would be better for us, instead of relying on Tim Cahill far too often.

With Martin O'Neill, he did the right thing to leave. He reluctantly sold one of his best players and wantedc and V the money from that sale to spend on replacements. He couldn't have that, so how the hell do you expect to improve the team? Villa will be a sinking ship and I am glad because that's one good team gone.

O'Neill and Moyes are both very similar in tersms of quality. But it's hard to knock O'Neill ? he improved three good clubs: Leicester, Celtiilla.

With the Kenwright situation, it's easy to hate him because we have no money. But he clearly has no money. He does best for the club and does what he can. Simple as.
David O'Keefe
64   Posted 10/08/2010 at 13:06:21

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Alan KIrwan:- you're the black knight and I think I will call this one a draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno
Ciarán McGlone
65   Posted 10/08/2010 at 13:11:29

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"Ciaran, I don't recall Arsene Wenger coming out in recent seasons and condemning Everton as being an overly physical side reliant on playing the long ball game like he did quite vociferously with Villa. "
-------------------

Do you really think this proves we have always been a better 'footballing side' than Villa...??

I don't.
Anthony Hughes
66   Posted 10/08/2010 at 13:31:32

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Everton spend no money or have no money to spend and Kenwright is lauded for running the club sensibly,

Randy Lerner adopts a similar stance at Villa and because O'Neill has the courage of his convictions and walks then it's insinuated that Lerner is a bad owner.
Ryan Rosenberg
67   Posted 10/08/2010 at 13:37:56

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Is it just me or if Bob Bradley gets the nod, he will go for Donovan? Moyes will not go. Villa? Without a doubt it is a step down.
Steven Barton
68   Posted 10/08/2010 at 13:05:48

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Kevin #50

"The economics of that situation astound me. How is their wage bill so much higher than ours?"

I read somewhere today that Richard Dunne was pocketing 70 Grand a week!
Can that really be true?
Roger Domal
69   Posted 10/08/2010 at 14:31:12

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Net spend means nothing if you have an unsustainable wage bill. If you pay someone £70k a week and you can only afford £50k and you need to sell someone to make up that number, well, that's the deal then.

I think MON will find there truly aren't many owners like AV's owner left in the business. Where is he going to go?
Charles King
70   Posted 10/08/2010 at 14:11:36

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I'm critical of BK because he's the chairman and we don't look like challenging for the title under his stewardship. I'm not interested how he does it, it's his job to make it happen.

It's nothing personal, I don't deny he says nice stuff about Everton and he's good pals with DM. The Kirkby folly smacked of self interest, Kings Dock, Rooney and Gosling we're handled like someone not in control. Fortunately, the abundance of twats in football mean we can tread water above relegation and flirt with the top 8 for as long as we want.

Nil Satis...

Kevin Gillen
71   Posted 10/08/2010 at 14:59:33

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Steven 68 - you're right to ask how can that be. I wonder if this 25 player limit might have some positive effects on the absurd wages offered in the Premier League.

I suppose my point is, outside of O'Neill's first Xl, half of whom I would have on good rather than spectacular wages, where is the justification for such a precarious financial provision? The manager has to take some responsibility for this.

We ToffeeWebbers still bring up Per Krøldrup as the ultimate crap transfer under Moyes but in truth he was moved along as soon as it became clear to Moyes he wasn't going to make it in the EPL. O'Neill it seems to me has got it wrong at Villa on several occasions (Beye, Delph, Shorey, Young, Davies) yet has this exalted reputation as an almost untouchable genius. It comes to something when a reserve fullback at Villa won't move to Liverpool because he's got to take a substantial pay cut.

Villa have had a lot more investment than us but overall have achieved less and are in a far worse position than us as things currently stand.The whole situation reminds me of O'Neill's mentor Clough and the lewd posturing associated with his tenures at Derby and Leeds.

Without an Arab Sheikh or a Russian Oligarch there is no shortcut to success in football in the EPL. I've said it once and I'll say it again, although I know some will disagree and I respect their opinion: that I'd rather have Blue Bill any day over Gillett & Hicks or the Glazers.

Gillett and Hicks look like they are going under and either the taxpayer or a shady foreign owner will have the club in the next few weeks and I'd hate to have to go and support Man Unt with a Norwich scarf wrapped around my neck every weekend. That sort of split really eats away at fans and the unity of a club, aka Destination Kirkby, RIP.

Anthony Hughes
72   Posted 10/08/2010 at 15:34:35

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Kevin, Villa and ourselves have achieved exactly the same: fuck all... besides hanging around 6th to 10th position each season.
Iain Love
73   Posted 10/08/2010 at 15:20:04

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John Daley.
Two good posts , although i feel the first was based on my earlier one, better put admitedly.
What you must concentrate on is your punctuation, it's excessive and will cost you marks at exam time .
Good Effort
8/10
Dean Adams
74   Posted 10/08/2010 at 15:37:34

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Did'nt we finish 5th on more than 1 occassion, which makes your post pointless Mr Hughes!!
Anthony Hughes
75   Posted 10/08/2010 at 15:44:19

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We certainly did Dean i'll give you that but we're still in exactly the same boat as Villa,losing cup finalists in recent years but still no silverware in the cabinet.
Stephen Kenny
76   Posted 10/08/2010 at 16:18:07

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I must remember to describe foreign owners as shady or shadowy in future. Who needs a basis?
Eugene Ruane
77   Posted 10/08/2010 at 16:23:01

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I'll be honest - I'm becoming fascinated with Alan KirwIn.

He's...interesting in a mad, mad way.

Says Alan, as though informing us of some new, (just invented by him!) philosophical idea - "I comment when I feel like it".

Wow, what a unique idea!

Not like the rest of us unoriginal drones then - all having to post at 17.46.

He adds "Know what I mean old boy?

Erm...no Al, not really.

Then there's his mad desire to be seen as somehow 'above it all', but letting himself down coz he can't keep away.

He posts and posts arguing the toss (using his bag of obvious tricks) then ends with...

"I can barely contain my indifference. Some of us prefer the real world to theoretical bollocks".

The REAL world!?

(swirls finger round at my temple and does tuneless whistle)

Look above Al, paragraphs and paragraphs of you 'barely containing your indifference'.

I'm getting a picture in my mind of a slightly pickled former 'bright young thing' wandering about a darkened room in a tattered Noel Coward dressing gown.

Someone who has VERY little contact with the real world.

Like some Tennessee Williams character

Someone who was told he was destined for great things but then came (whispers) 'the incident'

Toffeeweb's version of Grey Gardens.

"EDIE!!! EDIE!!! They're posting again!!"

Like I say - can't get enough.
David Price
78   Posted 10/08/2010 at 17:46:47

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Wow, some bloody tangents going on here I only suggested how lucky we are to have Bill and Davey in such a good working relationship. As the facts come out around MON and the financial situation, who knows if Spurs will be in the same boat this time next year if they fluff their CL lines. Blimey, going off at a tangent here..
Mike Green
79   Posted 10/08/2010 at 19:43:16

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Eugene Ruane - PhD (Bizzarre Posts)

Kevin Gillen - good post mate

Villa - commited, one dimensional, dirty bunch of fuckers.

MON - vastly overated, a lie built on a lie built on a lie.

Ciaran McGlone (come on Ciaran, how do you do the little thing above the a...?) - know more than Arsene Wenger, don't you know.
Dennis Stevens
80   Posted 10/08/2010 at 20:04:28

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There's no doubt about it - a difference of opinion on TW is a much better read than on any other site - elsewhere the language usually disintegrates to abusive gibberish leading to the combatants trying to arrange to meet to settle their differences "the old-fashioned way"!
Brendan O'Doherty
81   Posted 10/08/2010 at 20:27:44

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"A lie built on a lie built on a lie"

What lies are these Mike?

Another question. Who was the last Premier League manager to properly 'resign'?

PL managers are on such lucrative contracts these days that when one of them goes, it's either 'sacked' (undetermined huge compensation payout), or 'mutual consent' (pre-determined large compensation payout). No-one resigns anymore. Until now. MON's decision to walk has probably cost him a fortune, but he's a principled man. He probably got that from his football roots, which I guess is one of the 'lies' you mention.
Mike Green
82   Posted 10/08/2010 at 21:09:15

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Breandan

I believe Martin O'Neill is an intelligent, good and decent man - when it comes to his professional life his image is grounded on his excellent ability to self publicise - mainly down to working the media like a cheap violin. This he learnt from Clough.

As for the resignation he's not going to go short of a meal is he Brendan and again will have done a Cloughie "Give me the money / the players else I walk" and the Chairman has called his bluff leaving him with two options:

1) Stay and watch the team sink along with his reputation admitting Lerner calls all the shots.

2) Walk and have people treating him like he's some kind of latter day saint - into.... lets say the England job in 24 months or less for x times more than he's on now.

He's Steve McClaren with glasses and a gag.
Dennis Stevens
83   Posted 10/08/2010 at 21:23:00

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Mike, I wish he did have a gag - the gobby git never shuts his trap!
Phil Bellis
84   Posted 10/08/2010 at 21:29:07

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Mike Green...just cut and paste, as in
- Ciarán
Mike Green
85   Posted 10/08/2010 at 21:32:03

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Ciarán Ciarán Ciarán..... I've got you now you little tinker..... ha ha ha aha ahaha haah aha aha ah aah aha!!!!!!
Mike Green
86   Posted 10/08/2010 at 21:33:56

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Cheers Phil!
Brendan O'Doherty
87   Posted 10/08/2010 at 21:43:49

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No he's not going to starve Mike, but he has done what no other PL has done for a long time - resigned on a point of principle.

He has known that they were going to sell Milner for ages now. What seems to have happened is that he has just been told that he isn't getting any money for team rebuilding ( having previously thought that he would).

If David Moyes had suddenly been told a similar thing last summer after the Lescott transfer went through, he may have done the same. And you couldn't have blamed him.

The Moyes/O'Neill types are a dying breed in the game. Unlike a certain manager from a club not too far away, who held out for a £6m pay-off before agreeing to go.

That's all I'm saying. MON is not the money-grabbing,unprincipled, media-loving git, who has built his career on lie after lie, that you make him out to be.

Steve Mc Claren is doing quite well now, by the way.
Mike Green
88   Posted 10/08/2010 at 22:06:13

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Breandan - the lie built on a lie built on a lie bit was purely about his reputation as a manager. The lies being Villa built on Celtic built on Leicester built on Norwich built on Wycombe.

Steve McLaren is doing quite well - just as Martin O'Neil did in a v poor league with a 50/50 chance of silverware North of the border.

To compare him to two recent Everton managers - a very small pool to choose from and a manager off the top of my head:

Has he won more in Scotland than Walter Smith? Dont know answer but think I can guess.

Woudl you take his Carling Cup (s?) or Joe Royle's FA Cup?

Outside of EFC - has he really done more than someone like Kevin Keegan? Two FA Cup Finals, 2nd in the League after throwing it away etc....

If you ask about the managers above about their ability, Joe aside most will say dour and nowadays a bit of a "clown".

So - tell me. What has MON really done as a football manager that puts him on a pedestal above men like these? Spin and I'm sorry you've been sucked in.

As for moral high grounds I've walked out of a job on principle with a wife and two kids to feed so I understand better than most what's at stake when you do.

I also didnt call him money grabbing - which I dont think he is, he has no need to be, unprincipled - which he clearly is, but principles are great so long as you can afford them or a "git". I actually called him an "intelligent, good and decent man".

OK?



Mike Green
89   Posted 10/08/2010 at 22:35:27

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Apologies for rant Brendan and I meant he is clearly principled, not unprincipled.

Handing in resignation is just his style, as I understand it he doesnt agree long term contracts either so either party can walk when they want.

In negotiations you usually hold a strong hand when it's clear you have the power to walk away.

Apologies for getting heated.

Cheers
Brendan O'Doherty
90   Posted 11/08/2010 at 01:56:34

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"What has MON really done as a football manager that puts him on a pedestal above men like these? Spin and I'm sorry you've been sucked in."

I see Mike. Wycombe, Leicester, Celtic and Villas were all 'lies' were they? I must then have dreamt that he improved all these clubs dramatically during his tenures as manager. Leicester winning the Carling Cup and getting into Europe. Villa dragged from a bottom half of the table team to top 6/7 material. Of course he didn't win as much as Walter Smith in Scotland because he was only there for 4 years. During which time he won 3 titles in a row and lost the 4th unluckily on the last day of the season because Bellamy couldn't hit a barn door. He took them to relatively moderate success in the Champions League as well.
Is that enough for you? He is one of the most sought after managers in football. We were after him ourselves in 1998. What has Keegan ever won as a manager?

"As for moral high grounds I've walked out of a job on principle with a wife and two kids to feed so I understand better than most what's at stake when you do."

Now you're getting all personal Mike. I only compared his actions to other PL managers, specifically Benitez, so why do you bring your own personal circumstances into it ? I didn't mention 'moral high grounds'. If you think that he resigned to claim the moral high ground, well you are perfectly entitled to that opinion. My argument was to do with being principled, which is a separate issue altogether.

"Handing in resignation is just his style." I would remind you that he resigned from Celtic to care for his seriously ill wife. He left Norwich after a brief stint because he was fed a load of bullshit by their board and he saw through it.

You obviously don't like Martin O'Neill and that's fair enough. I will admit I am slightly biased as I went to the same school as him and have followed his career since - I have not been sucked in by spin. We are not going to agree on this, so we should leave it at that. Cheers.
Mike Green
91   Posted 11/08/2010 at 09:01:59

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Brendan - at no point have I said I dont like Martin O'Neill - I honestly do. On all your reply's you've taken this tack for some reason, which is well off the mark. Please dont put words in my mouth.

The point I was making about "walking" was having walked out on a job with nothing to go to - when everyone is telling you not to and you've got to find something first etc - then if you hold those kind of principles, which I have done and MON clearly does then thats just the way you are and you will go against the tide of usual behaviour. I didnt mean that it was typical of him, what I meant was that's the way he's wired by it being his style. If you think it makes no difference if you got £10m in the bank or £10 then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I know he's a good manager, I think you probably believe he's a great manager - so we can probably also agree to agree that he's a very good manager? I can live with that.

The only one of his teams I've not seen play live is Villa. Most memorably I've stood in the away end at the San Siro watching his Celtic team undesirvedly lose to an Inzaghi brace in the last five minutes. He has an approach, which doesn't change, which gets results up to a certain level but after that he's left wanting - which is why I think he is not as good as he's cracked up to be and much of that is down to the rapour he has with the press, which to his credit he probably deserves when you hear the stories of how he entertains them after matches.

I genuinely like the bloke, think he's good for the game, but IMO he is not a top drawer manager.

The school bit also makes sense now - at one point I thought you two must be related :D

Cheers and thanks for the debate.
Ciarán McGlone
92   Posted 11/08/2010 at 11:53:37

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Ciaran McGlone (come on Ciaran, how do you do the little thing above the a...?) - know more than Arsene Wenger, don't you know.
--------------

Hardly..got a point to go with this throwaway nonsense?
Ciarán McGlone
93   Posted 11/08/2010 at 11:53:37

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Ciaran McGlone (come on Ciaran, how do you do the little thing above the a...?) - know more than Arsene Wenger, don't you know.
--------------

Hardly..got a point to go with this throwaway nonsense?
Brendan O'Doherty
94   Posted 11/08/2010 at 15:19:46

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Fair comment, Mike.

I didn't want to bring the style of play of his teams into it because that's a separate issue altogether, which has it's supporters and detractors. If I'm honest I'm not it's biggest fan either; my opinions of his management are based more on his results than anything else.

I do accept that it makes a difference whether he has £10 or £10m in the bank, of course I do. My point was about his lack of financial compensation for his actions.

As you say, we've reached common ground here. Thanks for explaining your comments.
Mike Green
95   Posted 11/08/2010 at 17:43:56

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Done - good man, thanks. The beers, metaphorically, are on me. Catch you on another thread no doubt.
Brendan O'Doherty
96   Posted 11/08/2010 at 21:00:01

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OK Mike. I've never tasted metaphorical Guinness, so I'm wondering what it's like........looking forward to it!

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