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What is the sound of one hand clapping?

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With the squad that we have and our potential for this season, knowing what you do now by living through his part in our history, and viewing with hindsight, the 8 years of David Moyes; has it been worth it?
Nick Entwistle, London     Posted 12/08/2010 at 20:37:39

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Mike Green
1   Posted 12/08/2010 at 21:49:10

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I'm sure I did this in an exam once.... erm....

Tony Cheek
2   Posted 12/08/2010 at 21:52:23

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Tell you next May!!
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
3   Posted 12/08/2010 at 21:44:55

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Hmmm.... so, does a tree that falls in the forest...???

Such is the nature of unanswerable questions but it entirely depends on what we do this season. The build-up has been great, with lots of positivity and optimism, slaked by a few who steadfastly refuse to get on board the 24-year bandwagon to unassailable victory. Worth it? Moyes's growth in the job these last 8 years has been slow, ponderously so in my eyes, and often retrograde (as in two steps forward, three steps back). Despite all the current hype, his greatest success in the League was ages ago, when he steered Everton to 4th place ? something we have not attained since.

Now the excuses for all this are well known, but that won't stop them being spouted yet again, fresh as dung on this new thread, by the apologists for his past failings... but I'm prepared to put that all aside if we go into this season playing to our full potential, without the hideous negativity and cowering fear that has prevented his teams from really producing when it mattered (think Wembley, May 2009).

My earlier call was that we should all think very positively about what this team can achieve this season, that we should all BELIEVE we are capable of winning big. Some feel that would get communicated to the players.... think of the opportunity here, with 15,000 or so unique readers of ToffeeWeb, what if we could all make the effort to feel that way about this team? Would it give them the final boost they need?

All far too touchy feelly perhaps... but what an opportunity to put this "Power of Positive Thinking" business to the test! A massive test with a huge potential outcome for Everton FC and all its fans.

Are you with us? Or are you going to be a Naysayer???

Steve Pugh
4   Posted 12/08/2010 at 22:04:18

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Where you lead Michael we will follow.

To Everton, onwards and upwards.
Rob Young
5   Posted 12/08/2010 at 22:11:41

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Yes, even as one who has often critisised Moyes, it has been worth it.

Finally we managed wins at Elland, Road, Villa Park, White Hart Lane (3 years on the trot!). I had been waiting for many, many years to sample succes on those grounds.
We had a great, great run in Europe 2007-08 with Nuremburg-away an unforgetable highlight, than we thrashed Brann Bergen and the atmosphere at home v Fiorentina was electric. And, although not always as successful, we've been in Europe for 4 out of 5 seasons.

Those games v Villarreal were terrific as well, even though they kocked us out.

And, we twatted the Reds 3 - 0 which was unbelievable. And of course Danny Gosling's curler in the Cup!!

He's been frustrating for me often enough but, apart from not winning a trophy, the man has done very well.
Tony J Williams
6   Posted 12/08/2010 at 22:30:36

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As Michael says, it's an unanswerable question really. It will have been some some, for others not so much. There is nothing to compare his success/failures against but for me (an apologist I guess, glad to see the derogatory term still lives and breathes) I think it has been worth it.

So many high points, in Europe, finishing above the Redshite, finally beating Chelsea again, stuffing ManUre, beating Leeds at last, Spurs dumped on their turf and a cup final. Not bad for an apparent "coward".
Kevin Hudson
7   Posted 12/08/2010 at 22:04:30

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I smell mischief here, Nick! The circular argument is back! (Even though it's been done to death)

In March 2002, when Middlesborough wopped us 3-0 live on BBC in the FA Cup,e xactly what could Evertonians reasonably expect of their side in the years to come? That 3 years later we'd over-achieve by claiming a CL place? Of course not.

But given the previous wrist-slitting regime, would we have taken 5 top 8 finishes? European football? Case closed.

Of course it's been worth it.

Can we push on? I know what Barack Obama would say.

Unfortunately, there are some who believe football is of the Playstation or Roy Race variety, who seem to think we have a divine right to reign over the footballing world, and a mere magic wand is all it takes..

And refer to those who introduce them to the concept of reality, as apologists.

These people either don't go the game;

Or they sit in the Bullens!

Given the constraints facing the Everton manager, would Mourinho, Ancelotti, Guardiola or Wenger have done a better job these past 8 years?

Or has Moyes completely transformed the club from the shambles he inherited?
Kevin Gillen
8   Posted 12/08/2010 at 22:57:28

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I've sampled every Everton manager since Catterick. I think Moyes has been brilliant. Without him we could so easily have been relegated. We bitch and moan about having no money but at one time we were bankrolled way beyond the means of other clubs by John Moores.

What Moyes has done is make sure that his teams have shown pride in the shirt and he has been brutally honest in assessing himself and his team. He's a classy guy in my humble opinion and, even though we haven't won anything yet, he's enabled me to continue to be proud of my team.

The ruthless indoctrination of my children into a love of EFC has been worth it, even if they all feel a bit odd in the playground, being nearly the only child with a blue Everton shirt on. Moyes is always fair to the referees and shows great respect for his opponents (learning point for Benitez). He is a great model to sportsmen anywhere and I hope this year he gets his just desserts with a fantastic season. COYB

Brendan McLaughlin
9   Posted 12/08/2010 at 23:26:59

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Surely this season is the "Anti-Moyes Brigade" Last Stand!
Mike Green
10   Posted 12/08/2010 at 23:29:30

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It can't be a coincidence that within the confines of the Everton Nation almost everyone ? the fans, the players, the club ? all can feel as if we're on the verge of something big.

The fact that few people outside can see it makes me even more confident that we are ? it's like we've just done 8 years training under Moyes to become ninja's.... it's been slow, methodical, hard work, disciplined, has had its knocks that we've had to endure... but finally I feel like we've finally earned our shumitsu or whatever a ninja would get for making the grade.

If we have... how much more satisfying the victory would be...? To look every other fan in the eye knowing they knew how we'd earnt it?

And if we do we have to lay the plaudits at DM's door. I think after this season they might even split his career into Pre and Post 2010-11 it could be that significant.

On Saturday, the lads are in a place to go for it though, no mistake. They've got the 3 things required for success in spades now.

A goal ? the Premier League title.
The desire
The belief

Bring it on ? no excuses ? show us your shumitsu's ? COYB!!!
Jason Lam
11   Posted 13/08/2010 at 03:37:54

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We're definitely good enough for any place in the top 3. If we can snag Donovan in January, then with Heitinga, we have enough ruthlessness and guile to crack the biased refs and league conspiracy. The current squad's shortcoming is still the choir boy mentality.
Chris Wilson
12   Posted 13/08/2010 at 03:47:22

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No Brendan (post No 9), if we have any kind of stumble, the "Moyes Out" crowd will return louder than ever. Such is the cost of expectation.
Rob Fox
13   Posted 13/08/2010 at 03:55:07

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Read MIkel Arteta's words about why he signed a new 5-year deal. Anyone who can't see how much of this is down to Moyes and where we would be without him needs a reality check. Look at Villa if you are still unconvinced.
Thomas Watson
14   Posted 13/08/2010 at 04:42:03

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I wish to take this opportunity to salute the most successful "unsuccessful" manager in football history.

It all starts on 13 March 2002. Walter Smith, a manager with 13 SPL trophies to his name, is sacked as Everton manager. The club is out of the FA Cup, one point away from the relegation zone and has not finished above 13th in the table under Smith's management.

Despite what many may claim, Smith is not a bad manager. In fact Smith, who later led Scotland to the brink of Euro qualification, is a relatively good manager. So why did the club underachieve so badly? During his reign, Smith spent £57.8M on his squad, but to do this he had to raise the money by selling £57.6M worth of his players. In the crazy new world of the Premier League, this is ultimately the same as shooting your star player in the foot.

The club are skint, relagation fodder... and, despite the good intentions of the major shareholder, Bill Kenwright, have no chance of attracting a high profile manager. But Bill has an idea up his sleeve...

At Preston, a young Scot called David Moyes is building a bit of a reputation for himself, having taken North End to the Division One play-offs. Moyes, half-way on a scouting trip to Bristol I believe, continues his journey down south and meets Bill in London, talks to him... and then returns home to Preston.

And there lies one of the most important journeys in our recent history, as Moyes signs. A few days later on 16 March, there is an air of anticipation around Goodison Park. Bill sits in the stands, Moyes in the dugout, and Everton face Fulham, a team comfortably above them in the table. But Everton score within 30 seconds and then go on to win the game, 2-1. They end the season in 15th, only 2 positions worse than Smith's very best.

Now we jump to today, over 8 years on, and Moyes is yet to win a trophy (a fact that caused a few fans last season to want him replaced by "former" football manager Steve Coppell.) But here is my point, and many may disagree: if you were to give any other manager the same amount of money, none of them would return the same "profit" over 8 years that Moyes has. European trips, Champions League qualifying and an FA Cup Final all felt relatively impossible back on the 13 March 2002, but Moyes came in, changed everything, and made the impossible, the expected.

But, despite all that, Moyes achieved something far more important last year than even the FA Cup Final appearance. I remember watching the game against Manchester City, billions and unbeaten at home, and Everton were simply sublime. They played beautifully and ultimately that is something that has been missing longer than any trophies or championships. The team were playing completely true to their glorious history.

So thank you Moyes, the most successful "unsuccessful" manager in football history.

Ernie Baywood
15   Posted 13/08/2010 at 05:46:49

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I often wonder whether it is Moyes or whether it is simply a club taking a young manager and offering him the sort of stability and learning environment that other clubs don't. I'm pretty sure any team will improve with a decent manager over a long enough period of time.

I take nothing away from Moyes, though. Seems to learn from mistakes and has grown into a very respected manager. Players want to play for him, the Chairman seems to like being associated with him. That's all positive for a club.

Has it been worth it? Well I feel a lot better about my club than I did 8 years ago. I think we're in for a season that defines the Moyes and Kenright era. One way or the other.
Ernie Baywood
16   Posted 13/08/2010 at 05:52:28

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One quick point. I don't see myself as a DM apologist or anti-DM. I think its everyone's right or maybe even duty to criticise when it is required/deserved.
Eugene Ruane
17   Posted 13/08/2010 at 07:58:43

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Are the 'Moyes-Out Crowd' affiliated with the 'Anti-Moyes Brigade'? (or is there a People's front of Judea thing going on?). I don't need to know right now, but if at Christmas we're 17th, it would be good if someone could post the specific differences between the two groups.
Eugene Ruane
18   Posted 13/08/2010 at 08:09:24

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By the way, I've always hated firemen. Women seem to like them and I feel they play up to that 'hero' thing too much. If you agree, you too can be part of the anti fire brigade..erm..brigade.
Andy Crooks
19   Posted 13/08/2010 at 08:19:41

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Chris Wilson, when we stumble I shall not be calling for Moyes to go. The greatest outcry will come from those with unrealistic expectations.
Eugene Ruane
20   Posted 13/08/2010 at 08:31:04

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Andy (just curious, this is NOT a dig) what would you define as 'unrealistic expectations'?

As we've managed Europa (and CL) with squads I consider not as good as the one we'll start this season with, for me, not qualifying for Europe will be failure.
Ciarán McGlone
21   Posted 13/08/2010 at 08:56:59

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Michael hits the nail on the head with the following synopsis of Moyes..

"Moyes's growth in the job these last 8 years has been slow, ponderously so in my eyes, and often retrograde (as in two steps forward, three steps back). "

It appears that a half season of decent football has erased this reality from many peoples minds..

I would suggest a cautious approach to the new season...but it appears many people are simply on the 'this is our year' bandwagon...and our finding it very difficult to get off..

I'm quite positive about the new season..but that positivity is about our style of play...we should be seeing our new style of passing football fully emerge and I can't wait...However, I think the top four will still be a very hard struggle..

On the question of whether it's been worth it...IT'S ALWAY WORTH IT - it would be worth it if Noel Edmunds was in charge.....we get to watch the boys in blue come out to Z-Cars every week.
Tony I'Anson
22   Posted 13/08/2010 at 08:59:30

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Sod off. We're the Judean People's Front and I know we are heading for glory this season.

Don't forget we still have the last minute rabbit to pull out the hat as well to add to all the back-slapping.
Matthew Mackey
23   Posted 13/08/2010 at 09:11:27

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Since the inception of the PL and the ridiculous amounts of money being banded about it has created a chasm between the "haves" and the "Have nots" wider than at any other time in the history of our beautiful game.

For the "haves" (which we are not), success is measured in both silverware and a top four finish which then allows membership to this "haves club" for another year at least.

For the "Have nots" which we are executive members of, success is measured in how many years you can survive in the PL and maybe the occasional sniff at some of the cup silverware. Broken down further, the elite of this group are those that consistently finish in the top half of the PL but outside of the top four.

We belong in this latter grouping and seeing as we hardly ever seem to have a pot to piss in then I'd say that what David Moyes has achieved at our club in the last eight years is immense and as such I'd say it has definitely been worth it.

Andy Whittingham
24   Posted 13/08/2010 at 09:22:36

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Anyone else feel this is David Moyes's 'make or break' season? The 'make' being either silverware or Champions League qualification... the 'break' being non-achievement of either of those?
Andy Whittingham
25   Posted 13/08/2010 at 09:35:42

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I should've added that, with the 'break', I think Moyes will walk.
Mike Gwyer
26   Posted 13/08/2010 at 09:22:49

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Thomas (post 14).

Spot on.

However, we have players from Jags, Arteta, Pienaar, Rodwell, Baines & Fellaini who IMO would interest any of the current top 7 teams. We must deliver this season as the players mentioned above will definately have itchy feet and want CL & league and cup trophies.

Andy Crooks
27   Posted 13/08/2010 at 09:38:59

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Eugene, I think talk of winning the league or even top three is unrealistic. One of pbr />Andy W, I think Moyes has as good a job as he will get. Where will he walk to?
Gareth Humphreys
28   Posted 13/08/2010 at 10:32:04

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Thomas Watson has hit the nail on the head and everyone who has called for Moyes head should read it and it and then re-read it.

A remarkable job and we should be very thankful for him.

Micky Norman
29   Posted 13/08/2010 at 10:39:43

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In the immortal words of Father Ted "careful now!" I've always said that without Moyes we would have been the next Sheffield Wednesday. But all this gushing optimism for the season is making me very very nervous. Failing to live up to expectations is what the geordies do and it always rips them apart. Remember we are Everton. Anything can happen and it usually does.
Anthony Hughes
30   Posted 13/08/2010 at 10:57:15

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The vast majority of us are expecting a really good season but there's always that nagging doubt that this is Everton and they always, always seem to let us down just when we think we are about to do something big.

Please, Everton ? don't let it be like that this coming season!

Mike Green
31   Posted 13/08/2010 at 11:19:26

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Nah.... we're sorted!

When was the last time we were at this point of the season not scouring every inch of the media for some new blood, transfers, that signing that was going to make all the difference?

I think we all agree we could do with a right winger and a striker would be nice but all we're interested in is 3pm tomorrow now. We're ready to roll.

Yes - pride before a fall. We could get turned over good and proper tomorrow but if we do it'll be opening day nerves in my opinion. Once we settle we'll be magic.

My realistic expectations for the League are 5th or 6th. If we finish 4th or above I'll be ecstatic. If we finish out of the European places it'll be a big disappointment and that says how far DM Has brought us.

Cup wise - we're good enough to win one, have no Euro distractions so I expect a quarter-final appearance this season as a minimum, a semi would be great, a final better but if we get there again I want us to come home with nothing other than silverware this time. We bloody well deserve some.

I'm not going to even doubt it - this IS our year. Have a bit of faith folks!
Tony J Williams
32   Posted 13/08/2010 at 12:16:21

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Mike that has been my own personal view for a while now. There are obviously lots of posters who don't like Moyes, one of the site owners being one; however it does show you how far we have come in 8 years when we are royally pee'd off that we didn't get a European place.

Can you imagine the days of Ginola/Gascoigne thinking that?

I don't buy into the make or break thing either, it is a new season, just like last year it was a new season.

Yes we ae optimistic, as apart from the Pienaar saga there have been no upsetting factors and we finished well last season.

No-one apart from Citteh have really strengthened that much so we can be cautiously optimistic for our changes of a European spot and then go on from there.

No doubt when we have a couple of bad results, which we invariable will have, it will be back to normal and Marshy may even pop in.

I beleive we have a good side but my expectations are nowhere near as high as others on here, especially with that daft 24 year coincidence rubbish. God, I hope I am proven wrong on that!
Amit Vithlani
33   Posted 13/08/2010 at 12:12:21

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"It appears that a half season of decent football has erased this reality from many peoples minds.."

Eh? What about the football played the year before ( I recall we demolished Sunderland at home during a purple patch), the stuff we played en-route to the final (Villa at home in the quarters?) or the football played during the run in the Europa League?

We even played pretty well in getting to the Semi of the Carling Cup if memory serves...

Alan Clarke
34   Posted 13/08/2010 at 12:31:19

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Eugene, I really do enjoy your posts to see how random you can be in your comparisons.

One thing I've always agreed with Michael Kenrick about is that during every season Moyes has managed a team that CAN play good football but on too many occassions have resorted to hoofball. Previously, Moyes' teams have not maintained the high standards they set in other games. The last half of last season we saw a run of consistent performances in which the team played the type of football we've not seen at Goodison for over 20 years. That's why I've changed my tune about Moyes and I'm fully behind him this season.

If we revert to hoofball tactics though, I will be highly critical of Moyes again because he's shown us his team can play attractive, attacking football where the ball stays on the floor.
Norman Merrill
35   Posted 13/08/2010 at 12:32:55

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On TalkSport this morning, one subject getting discussed was great managers English and Scottish. The jock group had Matt Busby, Shankly, Stein, Sir Alex, and Moyes. When it came to phone-ins, most callers said "What's Moyes won?"

So really, that's what is missing from Davey's CV, so let's hope the trophy room gets a new resident this season.

Anthony Hughes
36   Posted 13/08/2010 at 12:44:13

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While never being Moyes's greatest fan during the last 8 years, partly due to the style of football ? or lack of it ? on the whole, I have grown to appreciate the even keel that he has managed to place the club on despite our poor financial situation. He seems like an honourable and loyal man.

However, I don't agree with the fact that this isn't a make or break season for us. This year, it's rightfully acknowledged that this is our best squad in a long time and I think it's hugely important Moyes becomes a trophy-winning manager; if he can't do that here, then he may be looking to pastures new where he can fufill his ambitions.

Tony J Williams
37   Posted 13/08/2010 at 13:02:38

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Where though Anthony? As mentioned before, this is probably the best job Moyes could get. Enough give on his leash to make mistakes and not get sacked and a bumper pay packet.
David Booth
38   Posted 13/08/2010 at 13:29:47

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It's THE most obvious thing to say I know, but I fervently believe the Blackburn game will be the best indication ever of how our whole season will shape up.

No slow start is acceptable this time and I'm so incredibly confident we'll play them off the park from kick-off to final whistle.

A lot of people are going to be taken by surprise by our team this season.

Don't let me down on this one tomorrow boys...
Paul Burdett
39   Posted 13/08/2010 at 14:13:10

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?Moyes's growth in the job these last 8 years has been slow, ponderously so in my eyes, and often retrograde (as in two steps forward, three steps back)?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn?t two steps forward and three steps back actually be regression and not progression? Surely even the harshest of critics would have to agree Everton under Moyes have improved.
Chris Jones
40   Posted 13/08/2010 at 14:04:34

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I'm one of those whose been labeled an 'Apologist'. I wear that badge with pride.

Moyes has built, he's taken us places we didn't think we'd go, and he has created a squad with some excellent payers. He has allowed us to hope and even stopped the mouths of some (not all) detractors.

Something often overlooked, the man has class. He stood up for himself and sued Rooney over the lies in his book. He won his case, got a big wedge of compo and gave it to the Blue Blood Foundation.

Top man. Get behind and support him (even when things don't look as rosy as they do now).
Anthony Hughes
41   Posted 13/08/2010 at 14:34:00

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I see what you're saying, Tony. Everton are like a comfy pair of old slippers to him; does that mean that he'll never leave Everton? I'm sure one day a very attractive offer will be put in front of him and he'll be tempted.
Tony J Williams
42   Posted 13/08/2010 at 14:54:03

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Good point, Paul, that would mean that after 8 season we have actually went back 8 does that work? He took over a relegation threatened old team, how would we now be in a worse position than that?

Then again we are all aware of Michael's views on Moyes and his views on us so-called apologists.
Ciarán McGlone
43   Posted 13/08/2010 at 15:03:22

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"Often retrograde" not always retrograde....

Charles King
44   Posted 13/08/2010 at 14:35:30

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I think it depends on your own Everton experience. If you're old enough to remember "nil satis etc" being relavent its hard to accept less. Right or wrong its just how it is, excitement at coming 4th or merely staying in the top flight is fleeting, as triumphs go they are pyrrhic. Silverware is the true measure, across Stanley Park the attendances maybe very similar but the present stature of the clubs is not.

There's plenty to admire about DM's demeanour but the bottom line is, one final, a 4th in the league spot and not being relegated.... not enough for me.

Anthony Hughes
45   Posted 13/08/2010 at 15:22:02

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Agree with Charles, we do need something to show now for the work that has been put in over the last 8 years. Who knows what would have happened if Moyes would have had sufficent financial backing during his reign.
Paul Burdett
46   Posted 13/08/2010 at 15:55:01

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Ciaran, just to be clear though, if we've been "often retrograde", then unless we've more often made progress, that would imply we've gone backwards, and I wouldn't believe that to be the case.
Michael Kenrick
47   Posted 13/08/2010 at 15:57:55

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My point was, in terms of "progress" that is so harped on about under Moyes, the litmus test always has to be league position: 4th, 11th, 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th. That is not progress; it is retrograde.
Tony J Williams
48   Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:08:56

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So two occassions out of the six examples we have gone backwards (4th to 11th, then picked up again, ie not moving backwward, until last season), that's not "often", as that would be the minority, also the year before the 4th was the 17th, so again not often. betcha.
Michael Kenrick
49   Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:17:16

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Tony, I'm being as pedantic as you, the point remains: 4th to 8th in six years is NOT progress in terms of the only measure that really matters... League position. That has GOT to change... and the only way it changes is if we finish higher than 4th. (Hopefully 1st!!!)
Chris Wilson
50   Posted 13/08/2010 at 15:44:39

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For Andy Crooks (post 19). Oh nor will I, and I agree it will be those with unrealistic expectations who will call Moyes out. But there is also a faction of Evertonians who simply don't like Moyes and never will for some reason. They're not here now because they have no platform - fans are excitied and the team is stable and hungry. But if "It" happens, they will be howling the instant they can with comments describing him as tactically naive, unable to motivate the players, has never won anything, and all the other usual stuff unfortunately.
Tony J Williams
51   Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:22:01

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Don't forget the now over used "apologist" label Chris.
Chris Wilson
52   Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:21:36

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Sorry, by "it" I mean the slightest bad patch during the season.
Chris Wilson
53   Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:24:18

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Oh true, the pendulem swings both ways. And frankly it's at those extreme ends where posts become a little difficult to read - too warm and fuzzy or too hateful.
Paul Burdett
54   Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:31:46

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I find it interesting in that in order to prove that Everton have gone backwards under Moyes, our highest finishing position under his stewardship has been used, and not the point he started from.
Michael Kenrick
55   Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:35:03

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Paul, the point is he set that bar. He came in, established the new regime, and got to work with the tremendous support of almost all Evertonians. That is his best achievement to date. For there to be true progress beyond that (SIX years ago, remember!) there has to be an improvement in the finishing league position. Nil satis... Nothing less will do!

And Chris: "tactically naive, unable to motivate the players, has never won anything" unfortunately remain accurate descriptors of Moyes's perennial failings these last 8 years. Unless he confronts them and turns things around in his own mind, and develops a far more consistently positive approach, all this optimism the fans, the players, and he himself are displaying will be for naught.
Paul Burdett
56   Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:42:57

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Michael, that sounds like in order to fit in with that measure of progress, as defined by some, Everton would've been better finishing 15th, 14th, 13th, 12th, 11th...
Charles King
57   Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:26:20

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I am at worst ambivalent about Moyes; he hasn't achieved what I'd hope for at Everton and I'd argue the way we play has been on the whole defensive during his reign.

I am delighted there are people who take the opposite view, support him to the hilt and have nothing but optimism for the coming campaign, Goodison would be empty without you, but this business of calling his critics "anti-Moyes" isn't right.Most posts I've seen questioning his judgements stray away from the personal stuff and simply ask pertinent questions, nothing wrong in that.
Ciarán McGlone
58   Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:54:58

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Nothing wrong with that indeed Charles...If we don't criticise the people who run this club then who will?
Kevin Tully
59   Posted 13/08/2010 at 17:06:06

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Moyes himself has admitted he is still learning his trade. Now, after 8 years, he has served his time. I think we all agree he is a man of principle, who stands head and shoulders above the likes of Benitez. In his early Everton career, his main aim was to reach the forty-point mark, which led to dire, grinding defensive performances. Those days are gone now, and we all believe top four is realistic.

If we were playing for the old Division One title, I actually think he has the raw talent to win it. Please remember, we are up against sides who can go to any club in the world, and buy their best players. Until we can spend those millions, I cannot judge him too harshly.
Tony J Williams
60   Posted 13/08/2010 at 17:20:13

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Charles, it's great that we all have opposing views otherwise the site would either be a depressing love in or a depressing hate...errr...errr..hate in!!!.

I think the Anti-Moyes tag is in response to the Apologist tag, both useless in their own right.
David Booth
61   Posted 13/08/2010 at 17:38:11

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Reading some of the posts in this thread quite sadden me.

Apart from being debated by the usual protagonists again, again, again and again (and again), it makes me realise that some of you would be happier if you got the Everton team you deserved: like so many of Moyes's predecesors produced.

Here we are, on the crest of a new season, with a truly exciting team featuring a terrific blend of youth and experience and strength in every position ? and all the usual suspects want to do is whinge about the manager.

It beggars belief. What more do you want, that we're not on the threshold of achieving, right now?

It's no wonder we get the oft-quoted tag 'bitter blue'.

Some of you really are and I truly cannot believe how much apparent enjoyment you get from demeaning Moyes and his achievements.

Cheer up, lighten up, wake up and get behind the man and his team for once.

You never know... it might rub off.

Andy Crooks
62   Posted 13/08/2010 at 18:26:23

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David, why should you be saddened by criticism of David Moyes? He is hugely paid and has the support of his chairman at the best club in the world. Who on this site gets pleasure from demeaning him? Can no-one come on and express doubts without getting stick?

I have never used the term apologist to describe his supporters so how about some respect for doubters. I have stated that I do not expect miracles from him but he has had eight years, won nothing and, in my view is entitled to some scrutiny.

Kevin Hudson
63   Posted 13/08/2010 at 17:50:16

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The root of all this re-hashed subjectivity is that the fickle negatives reluctantly and grudgingly offer praise to Moyes only when it's overwhelmingly due, and come down on him like a ton of bricks at the slightest stumble, trotting out the favoured "I told you so," line, coupled by a near total absence of gratitude for his work.

Those in favour of Moyes then question the sanity of the buzzkills,and indicate the transformation of the club during his tenure.

The polarity between the two camps was encapsulated last spring, where we were treated to the sight of the Editor & Director teeing off on each other, in the light of the former's certifiable tirade after our 3-1 win over Man Utd.

But as Tony J Williams points out: If it wasn't for the innumerable issues that promote healthy and often humourous debates, nobody would visit!

And it's why this outstanding site pisses over it's competition, year-in, year-out. COYB.
David Booth
64   Posted 13/08/2010 at 18:40:15

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Andy: I wholly appreciate what you say, but it perturbs me greatly to see such a willingness to criticise and perpetually find fault, when potentially we have the most exciting team since we won the league more than 20 years ago.

Everyone has a right to express an opinion: but sometimes I think it's best to say nothing unless one can be positive ? especially at what surely should be such an exciting time for us all?

God help him if we lose tomorrow!
Steve Pugh
65   Posted 13/08/2010 at 19:29:59

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Can I just remind all of the people who say that Everton fail if they don't win the league that we have failed 123 times more than we have succeeded. (Assuming my maths is right)
David Price
66   Posted 13/08/2010 at 20:58:19

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Can't believe people actually criticise Davey Moyes, next thing you know they'll be voting out Winston Churchill because he's not a peace time prime minister! Come on guys keep pace with the real world..
James Flynn
67   Posted 13/08/2010 at 20:15:21

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Michael (47) - "the litmus test always has to be league position: 4th, 11th, 6th, 5th, 5th, 8th".

Yes, competitive athletics' bottom-line: check the scoreboard/standings. That tells you how you're doing.

Colin Noon
68   Posted 13/08/2010 at 22:31:12

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Thomas Watson ? 14

Well bloody said sir, I don't even have to post what I was going to say, you have done it for me.
Richard Reeves
69   Posted 13/08/2010 at 21:08:29

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Moyes has built this squad with bargain buys with the exception of Bily,Yak and the big Fella. Any other manager taking over from Smith would've had to work under the same financial constraints and, although there must be managers out there that could've done as good a job, they are few and far between and I couldn't name one.

So yes, it has definitely been worth it because, without Moyes, we could've been in a really bad situation by now, maybe even relegated. I have been critical of Moyes in the past over many things like not making substitutions until to late in games, being over loyal to certain players when they're not playing well or when we have better options (Neville in midfield; should never happen again), playing too defensively against the so-called big four... I could go on and on

But, for all the negatives, there are many more positives, the most important of all is that he is still learning and is getting better, older and wiser as time passes. I'm sure he's going to make some mistakes this season, like some of the same ones in previous seasons, but this year unlike other years, when Moyes says that his aim is to win the Premier League, I believe that he thinks it is possible. This is one of a number of reasons why I think we will be challenging.

I found Michael's comments about the power of positive thinking very interesting because I think many of us have got this bug and think that there is this kind of wave of belief and positivity that is transcending through the whole club and through the players. Ok, there are many people on here who think at best we could get fourth spot... but I'm not one; I think we can win it.

If anyone believes in fate and this 24-year thing, then think of the chances of Everton continuing this pattern if we had had a different manager after Smith, sacked him for not being good enough, then replaced that manager with someone else. We wouldn't have a cats chance unless we hired someone like Mourinho who is capable of turning things around in a short space of time and that would never happen with a shoestring budget to give him.

No, this is the only way that we could have any chance of keeping this particular statistic alive, through a slow building proccess by a very good manager. I hope I'm not reading too much into things but I am a believer and sometimes strange things happen in football, just look at Newcastle under Keegan when they won the First Division and then the following year nearly won the Premiership. A lot of that success was because there was a positivity and belief throughout the club.

I feel like a kid in a sweet shop with a big secret that only us Evertonians know.

Andy Crooks
70   Posted 13/08/2010 at 22:48:05

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Colin, I read your post and subsequently re-read Thomas's. I nodded in agreement as I read it, thinking here is an Evertonian taking a realistic view of Walter' s tenure. Then, as I read on, I could feel the red mist rising.

Have you forgotten the cup final against Chelsea? The team sweated blood to get there and then what? The most abject fucking surrender in the history of the club ? down, entirely to the coach.

This site used to be an alternative to bluekipper and the OS but I have noticed lately a lack of tolerance to any dissent. Not, may I add, from the editorial team but from the David Moyes fan club. I know I must sound like a miserable bastard but how about some balance?

John Daley
71   Posted 14/08/2010 at 00:35:00

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Hmm.... Well worth it because, if I had to endure just one more year of Walter Smith, I would probably have downed a pint of sulphuric acid and shat my insides out, safe in the knowledge that it was less agonizing than suffering another season of watching the likes of Gazza, Bakayoko, Xavier, Ginola etc avoiding relegation by the skin of their teeth and then being told this was the best we could realistically hope for.
Brendan O'Doherty
72   Posted 14/08/2010 at 02:51:22

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It seems that some have begun sharpening their knives for DM before a ball is kicked this season.

Moyes, apparently is "unable to motivate the players." Hmmm. Just turned many of this team from average(ish) performers into players who play to the top of their ability, and whose values have quadrupled during their time at Everton.

"Can no-one come on and express doubts without getting stick?" Ridiculous comment Andy, borne out of paranoia. Just like when you said yesterday, "DM is not beyond criticism." And above,"I know I must sound like a miserable bastard but how about some balance?" It's called debate. Make your comments, fine. But stop whingeing just because most people disagree with you.

"The most abject fucking surrender in the history of the club, down, entirely to the coach." Make sure you don't understate it now, will you. Of course, it was nothing to do with Chelsea being the better side on the day, with a world-class left back who tore our right-hand side to shreds.

As others have said, Thomas Watson (#14) sums it up superbly. Great post.

A possible scenario in 5 years time:

David Moyes has left Everton to go and manage one of the Old Firm. We have the same board and chairman, and of course still have no money. Fans fondly look back to the Moyes era wishing we still had players like Arteta, Fellaini and Rodwell, who moved on when Moyes left. We have had to start from square one again with a new manager, who has no funds to buy players, and are languishing in mid-table. A campaign starts to get Moyes to come back, but he's not having any of it because he's winning SPL titles with...... (insert club).

Oh happy days....
Michael Kenrick
73   Posted 15/08/2010 at 19:01:29

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So Brendan (#72)... I think you should read Lyndon's match report and then reconsider your confidence in Moyes. All the classic Moyes failings were only too apparent yesterday, sadly. I hoped he'd changed for this new season... silly me.
Alex Doran
74   Posted 15/08/2010 at 19:05:17

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I just saw a poll asking if Moyes is worth £3.5M a year and I discovered that 46% had said No. I have seen so many fans slate Moyes and yet they seem to forget his achievements such as coming 4th (above Liverpool, when was the last time before that we had finished above them?) and then coming 5th 2 years running.

And then people wonder why Moyes hasn't been sacked. Before he arrived, we were constant bottom-half laughing stock of our neighbours across the park. Mark my words, when Moyes leaves (which is most likely to happen in the next few years!) we will return to what we were like (bottom half drivel) because, believe me, there is no-one we can afford and most managers that we can't that will do nowhere near enough as good a job as Moyes.

Brendan O'Doherty
75   Posted 15/08/2010 at 19:13:41

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Michael, I try not to do knee-jerk reactions. I'm surprised you think that I would reconsider my stance based on the evidence of one match, which although disappointing, was not an unqualified unmitigated disaster. I base my confidence in him over the longer term position, as I'm sure you base your misgivings about him.

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