With the squad that we have and our potential for this season, knowing what you do now by living through his part in our history, and viewing with hindsight, the 8 years of David Moyes; has it been worth it?
Nick Entwistle, Posted 12/08/2010 at 20:37:39
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1 Posted 12/08/2010 at 21:49:10
2 Posted 12/08/2010 at 21:52:23
3 Posted 12/08/2010 at 21:44:55
Such is the nature of unanswerable questions but it entirely depends on what we do this season. The build-up has been great, with lots of positivity and optimism, slaked by a few who steadfastly refuse to get on board the 24-year bandwagon to unassailable victory. Worth it? Moyes's growth in the job these last 8 years has been slow, ponderously so in my eyes, and often retrograde (as in two steps forward, three steps back). Despite all the current hype, his greatest success in the League was ages ago, when he steered Everton to 4th place ? something we have not attained since.
Now the excuses for all this are well known, but that won't stop them being spouted yet again, fresh as dung on this new thread, by the apologists for his past failings... but I'm prepared to put that all aside if we go into this season playing to our full potential, without the hideous negativity and cowering fear that has prevented his teams from really producing when it mattered (think Wembley, May 2009).
My earlier call was that we should all think very positively about what this team can achieve this season, that we should all BELIEVE we are capable of winning big. Some feel that would get communicated to the players.... think of the opportunity here, with 15,000 or so unique readers of ToffeeWeb, what if we could all make the effort to feel that way about this team? Would it give them the final boost they need?
All far too touchy feelly perhaps... but what an opportunity to put this "Power of Positive Thinking" business to the test! A massive test with a huge potential outcome for Everton FC and all its fans.
Are you with us? Or are you going to be a Naysayer???
4 Posted 12/08/2010 at 22:04:18
To Everton, onwards and upwards.
5 Posted 12/08/2010 at 22:11:41
Finally we managed wins at Elland, Road, Villa Park, White Hart Lane (3 years on the trot!). I had been waiting for many, many years to sample succes on those grounds.
We had a great, great run in Europe 2007-08 with Nuremburg-away an unforgetable highlight, than we thrashed Brann Bergen and the atmosphere at home v Fiorentina was electric. And, although not always as successful, we've been in Europe for 4 out of 5 seasons.
Those games v Villarreal were terrific as well, even though they kocked us out.
And, we twatted the Reds 3 - 0 which was unbelievable. And of course Danny Gosling's curler in the Cup!!
He's been frustrating for me often enough but, apart from not winning a trophy, the man has done very well.
6 Posted 12/08/2010 at 22:30:36
So many high points, in Europe, finishing above the Redshite, finally beating Chelsea again, stuffing ManUre, beating Leeds at last, Spurs dumped on their turf and a cup final. Not bad for an apparent "coward".
7 Posted 12/08/2010 at 22:04:30
In March 2002, when Middlesborough wopped us 3-0 live on BBC in the FA Cup,e xactly what could Evertonians reasonably expect of their side in the years to come? That 3 years later we'd over-achieve by claiming a CL place? Of course not.
But given the previous wrist-slitting regime, would we have taken 5 top 8 finishes? European football? Case closed.
Of course it's been worth it.
Can we push on? I know what Barack Obama would say.
Unfortunately, there are some who believe football is of the Playstation or Roy Race variety, who seem to think we have a divine right to reign over the footballing world, and a mere magic wand is all it takes..
And refer to those who introduce them to the concept of reality, as apologists.
These people either don't go the game;
Or they sit in the Bullens!
Given the constraints facing the Everton manager, would Mourinho, Ancelotti, Guardiola or Wenger have done a better job these past 8 years?
Or has Moyes completely transformed the club from the shambles he inherited?
8 Posted 12/08/2010 at 22:57:28
What Moyes has done is make sure that his teams have shown pride in the shirt and he has been brutally honest in assessing himself and his team. He's a classy guy in my humble opinion and, even though we haven't won anything yet, he's enabled me to continue to be proud of my team.
The ruthless indoctrination of my children into a love of EFC has been worth it, even if they all feel a bit odd in the playground, being nearly the only child with a blue Everton shirt on. Moyes is always fair to the referees and shows great respect for his opponents (learning point for Benitez). He is a great model to sportsmen anywhere and I hope this year he gets his just desserts with a fantastic season. COYB
9 Posted 12/08/2010 at 23:26:59
10 Posted 12/08/2010 at 23:29:30
The fact that few people outside can see it makes me even more confident that we are ? it's like we've just done 8 years training under Moyes to become ninja's.... it's been slow, methodical, hard work, disciplined, has had its knocks that we've had to endure... but finally I feel like we've finally earned our shumitsu or whatever a ninja would get for making the grade.
If we have... how much more satisfying the victory would be...? To look every other fan in the eye knowing they knew how we'd earnt it?
And if we do we have to lay the plaudits at DM's door. I think after this season they might even split his career into Pre and Post 2010-11 it could be that significant.
On Saturday, the lads are in a place to go for it though, no mistake. They've got the 3 things required for success in spades now.
A goal ? the Premier League title.
Bring it on ? no excuses ? show us your shumitsu's ? COYB!!!
11 Posted 13/08/2010 at 03:37:54
12 Posted 13/08/2010 at 03:47:22
13 Posted 13/08/2010 at 03:55:07
14 Posted 13/08/2010 at 04:42:03
It all starts on 13 March 2002. Walter Smith, a manager with 13 SPL trophies to his name, is sacked as Everton manager. The club is out of the FA Cup, one point away from the relegation zone and has not finished above 13th in the table under Smith's management.
Despite what many may claim, Smith is not a bad manager. In fact Smith, who later led Scotland to the brink of Euro qualification, is a relatively good manager. So why did the club underachieve so badly? During his reign, Smith spent £57.8M on his squad, but to do this he had to raise the money by selling £57.6M worth of his players. In the crazy new world of the Premier League, this is ultimately the same as shooting your star player in the foot.
The club are skint, relagation fodder... and, despite the good intentions of the major shareholder, Bill Kenwright, have no chance of attracting a high profile manager. But Bill has an idea up his sleeve...
At Preston, a young Scot called David Moyes is building a bit of a reputation for himself, having taken North End to the Division One play-offs. Moyes, half-way on a scouting trip to Bristol I believe, continues his journey down south and meets Bill in London, talks to him... and then returns home to Preston.
And there lies one of the most important journeys in our recent history, as Moyes signs. A few days later on 16 March, there is an air of anticipation around Goodison Park. Bill sits in the stands, Moyes in the dugout, and Everton face Fulham, a team comfortably above them in the table. But Everton score within 30 seconds and then go on to win the game, 2-1. They end the season in 15th, only 2 positions worse than Smith's very best.
Now we jump to today, over 8 years on, and Moyes is yet to win a trophy (a fact that caused a few fans last season to want him replaced by "former" football manager Steve Coppell.) But here is my point, and many may disagree: if you were to give any other manager the same amount of money, none of them would return the same "profit" over 8 years that Moyes has. European trips, Champions League qualifying and an FA Cup Final all felt relatively impossible back on the 13 March 2002, but Moyes came in, changed everything, and made the impossible, the expected.
But, despite all that, Moyes achieved something far more important last year than even the FA Cup Final appearance. I remember watching the game against Manchester City, billions and unbeaten at home, and Everton were simply sublime. They played beautifully and ultimately that is something that has been missing longer than any trophies or championships. The team were playing completely true to their glorious history.
So thank you Moyes, the most successful "unsuccessful" manager in football history.
15 Posted 13/08/2010 at 05:46:49
I take nothing away from Moyes, though. Seems to learn from mistakes and has grown into a very respected manager. Players want to play for him, the Chairman seems to like being associated with him. That's all positive for a club.
Has it been worth it? Well I feel a lot better about my club than I did 8 years ago. I think we're in for a season that defines the Moyes and Kenright era. One way or the other.
16 Posted 13/08/2010 at 05:52:28
17 Posted 13/08/2010 at 07:58:43
18 Posted 13/08/2010 at 08:09:24
19 Posted 13/08/2010 at 08:19:41
20 Posted 13/08/2010 at 08:31:04
As we've managed Europa (and CL) with squads I consider not as good as the one we'll start this season with, for me, not qualifying for Europe will be failure.
21 Posted 13/08/2010 at 08:56:59
"Moyes's growth in the job these last 8 years has been slow, ponderously so in my eyes, and often retrograde (as in two steps forward, three steps back). "
It appears that a half season of decent football has erased this reality from many peoples minds..
I would suggest a cautious approach to the new season...but it appears many people are simply on the 'this is our year' bandwagon...and our finding it very difficult to get off..
I'm quite positive about the new season..but that positivity is about our style of play...we should be seeing our new style of passing football fully emerge and I can't wait...However, I think the top four will still be a very hard struggle..
On the question of whether it's been worth it...IT'S ALWAY WORTH IT - it would be worth it if Noel Edmunds was in charge.....we get to watch the boys in blue come out to Z-Cars every week.
22 Posted 13/08/2010 at 08:59:30
Don't forget we still have the last minute rabbit to pull out the hat as well to add to all the back-slapping.
23 Posted 13/08/2010 at 09:11:27
For the "haves" (which we are not), success is measured in both silverware and a top four finish which then allows membership to this "haves club" for another year at least.
For the "Have nots" which we are executive members of, success is measured in how many years you can survive in the PL and maybe the occasional sniff at some of the cup silverware. Broken down further, the elite of this group are those that consistently finish in the top half of the PL but outside of the top four.
We belong in this latter grouping and seeing as we hardly ever seem to have a pot to piss in then I'd say that what David Moyes has achieved at our club in the last eight years is immense and as such I'd say it has definitely been worth it.
24 Posted 13/08/2010 at 09:22:36
25 Posted 13/08/2010 at 09:35:42
26 Posted 13/08/2010 at 09:22:49
Thomas (post 14).
However, we have players from Jags, Arteta, Pienaar, Rodwell, Baines & Fellaini who IMO would interest any of the current top 7 teams. We must deliver this season as the players mentioned above will definately have itchy feet and want CL & league and cup trophies.
27 Posted 13/08/2010 at 09:38:59
28 Posted 13/08/2010 at 10:32:04
A remarkable job and we should be very thankful for him.
29 Posted 13/08/2010 at 10:39:43
30 Posted 13/08/2010 at 10:57:15
Please, Everton ? don't let it be like that this coming season!
31 Posted 13/08/2010 at 11:19:26
When was the last time we were at this point of the season not scouring every inch of the media for some new blood, transfers, that signing that was going to make all the difference?
I think we all agree we could do with a right winger and a striker would be nice but all we're interested in is 3pm tomorrow now. We're ready to roll.
Yes - pride before a fall. We could get turned over good and proper tomorrow but if we do it'll be opening day nerves in my opinion. Once we settle we'll be magic.
My realistic expectations for the League are 5th or 6th. If we finish 4th or above I'll be ecstatic. If we finish out of the European places it'll be a big disappointment and that says how far DM Has brought us.
Cup wise - we're good enough to win one, have no Euro distractions so I expect a quarter-final appearance this season as a minimum, a semi would be great, a final better but if we get there again I want us to come home with nothing other than silverware this time. We bloody well deserve some.
I'm not going to even doubt it - this IS our year. Have a bit of faith folks!
32 Posted 13/08/2010 at 12:16:21
Can you imagine the days of Ginola/Gascoigne thinking that?
I don't buy into the make or break thing either, it is a new season, just like last year it was a new season.
Yes we ae optimistic, as apart from the Pienaar saga there have been no upsetting factors and we finished well last season.
No-one apart from Citteh have really strengthened that much so we can be cautiously optimistic for our changes of a European spot and then go on from there.
No doubt when we have a couple of bad results, which we invariable will have, it will be back to normal and Marshy may even pop in.
I beleive we have a good side but my expectations are nowhere near as high as others on here, especially with that daft 24 year coincidence rubbish. God, I hope I am proven wrong on that!
33 Posted 13/08/2010 at 12:12:21
"It appears that a half season of decent football has erased this reality from many peoples minds.."
Eh? What about the football played the year before ( I recall we demolished Sunderland at home during a purple patch), the stuff we played en-route to the final (Villa at home in the quarters?) or the football played during the run in the Europa League?
We even played pretty well in getting to the Semi of the Carling Cup if memory serves...
34 Posted 13/08/2010 at 12:31:19
One thing I've always agreed with Michael Kenrick about is that during every season Moyes has managed a team that CAN play good football but on too many occassions have resorted to hoofball. Previously, Moyes' teams have not maintained the high standards they set in other games. The last half of last season we saw a run of consistent performances in which the team played the type of football we've not seen at Goodison for over 20 years. That's why I've changed my tune about Moyes and I'm fully behind him this season.
If we revert to hoofball tactics though, I will be highly critical of Moyes again because he's shown us his team can play attractive, attacking football where the ball stays on the floor.
35 Posted 13/08/2010 at 12:32:55
So really, that's what is missing from Davey's CV, so let's hope the trophy room gets a new resident this season.
36 Posted 13/08/2010 at 12:44:13
However, I don't agree with the fact that this isn't a make or break season for us. This year, it's rightfully acknowledged that this is our best squad in a long time and I think it's hugely important Moyes becomes a trophy-winning manager; if he can't do that here, then he may be looking to pastures new where he can fufill his ambitions.
37 Posted 13/08/2010 at 13:02:38
38 Posted 13/08/2010 at 13:29:47
No slow start is acceptable this time and I'm so incredibly confident we'll play them off the park from kick-off to final whistle.
A lot of people are going to be taken by surprise by our team this season.
Don't let me down on this one tomorrow boys...
39 Posted 13/08/2010 at 14:13:10
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn?t two steps forward and three steps back actually be regression and not progression? Surely even the harshest of critics would have to agree Everton under Moyes have improved.
40 Posted 13/08/2010 at 14:04:34
Moyes has built, he's taken us places we didn't think we'd go, and he has created a squad with some excellent payers. He has allowed us to hope and even stopped the mouths of some (not all) detractors.
Something often overlooked, the man has class. He stood up for himself and sued Rooney over the lies in his book. He won his case, got a big wedge of compo and gave it to the Blue Blood Foundation.
Top man. Get behind and support him (even when things don't look as rosy as they do now).
41 Posted 13/08/2010 at 14:34:00
42 Posted 13/08/2010 at 14:54:03
Then again we are all aware of Michael's views on Moyes and his views on us so-called apologists.
43 Posted 13/08/2010 at 15:03:22
44 Posted 13/08/2010 at 14:35:30
There's plenty to admire about DM's demeanour but the bottom line is, one final, a 4th in the league spot and not being relegated.... not enough for me.
45 Posted 13/08/2010 at 15:22:02
46 Posted 13/08/2010 at 15:55:01
47 Posted 13/08/2010 at 15:57:55
48 Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:08:56
49 Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:17:16
50 Posted 13/08/2010 at 15:44:39
51 Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:22:01
52 Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:21:36
53 Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:24:18
54 Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:31:46
55 Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:35:03
And Chris: "tactically naive, unable to motivate the players, has never won anything" unfortunately remain accurate descriptors of Moyes's perennial failings these last 8 years. Unless he confronts them and turns things around in his own mind, and develops a far more consistently positive approach, all this optimism the fans, the players, and he himself are displaying will be for naught.
56 Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:42:57
57 Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:26:20
I am delighted there are people who take the opposite view, support him to the hilt and have nothing but optimism for the coming campaign, Goodison would be empty without you, but this business of calling his critics "anti-Moyes" isn't right.
58 Posted 13/08/2010 at 16:54:58
59 Posted 13/08/2010 at 17:06:06
If we were playing for the old Division One title, I actually think he has the raw talent to win it. Please remember, we are up against sides who can go to any club in the world, and buy their best players. Until we can spend those millions, I cannot judge him too harshly.
60 Posted 13/08/2010 at 17:20:13
I think the Anti-Moyes tag is in response to the Apologist tag, both useless in their own right.
61 Posted 13/08/2010 at 17:38:11
Apart from being debated by the usual protagonists again, again, again and again (and again), it makes me realise that some of you would be happier if you got the Everton team you deserved: like so many of Moyes's predecesors produced.
Here we are, on the crest of a new season, with a truly exciting team featuring a terrific blend of youth and experience and strength in every position ? and all the usual suspects want to do is whinge about the manager.
It beggars belief. What more do you want, that we're not on the threshold of achieving, right now?
It's no wonder we get the oft-quoted tag 'bitter blue'.
Some of you really are and I truly cannot believe how much apparent enjoyment you get from demeaning Moyes and his achievements.
Cheer up, lighten up, wake up and get behind the man and his team for once.
You never know... it might rub off.
62 Posted 13/08/2010 at 18:26:23
I have never used the term apologist to describe his supporters so how about some respect for doubters. I have stated that I do not expect miracles from him but he has had eight years, won nothing and, in my view is entitled to some scrutiny.
63 Posted 13/08/2010 at 17:50:16
Those in favour of Moyes then question the sanity of the buzzkills,and indicate the transformation of the club during his tenure.
The polarity between the two camps was encapsulated last spring, where we were treated to the sight of the Editor & Director teeing off on each other, in the light of the former's certifiable tirade after our 3-1 win over Man Utd.
But as Tony J Williams points out: If it wasn't for the innumerable issues that promote healthy and often humourous debates, nobody would visit!
And it's why this outstanding site pisses over it's competition, year-in, year-out. COYB.
64 Posted 13/08/2010 at 18:40:15
Everyone has a right to express an opinion: but sometimes I think it's best to say nothing unless one can be positive ? especially at what surely should be such an exciting time for us all?
God help him if we lose tomorrow!
65 Posted 13/08/2010 at 19:29:59
66 Posted 13/08/2010 at 20:58:19
67 Posted 13/08/2010 at 20:15:21
Yes, competitive athletics' bottom-line: check the scoreboard/standings. That tells you how you're doing.
68 Posted 13/08/2010 at 22:31:12
Well bloody said sir, I don't even have to post what I was going to say, you have done it for me.
69 Posted 13/08/2010 at 21:08:29
So yes, it has definitely been worth it because, without Moyes, we could've been in a really bad situation by now, maybe even relegated. I have been critical of Moyes in the past over many things like not making substitutions until to late in games, being over loyal to certain players when they're not playing well or when we have better options (Neville in midfield; should never happen again), playing too defensively against the so-called big four... I could go on and on
But, for all the negatives, there are many more positives, the most important of all is that he is still learning and is getting better, older and wiser as time passes. I'm sure he's going to make some mistakes this season, like some of the same ones in previous seasons, but this year unlike other years, when Moyes says that his aim is to win the Premier League, I believe that he thinks it is possible. This is one of a number of reasons why I think we will be challenging.
I found Michael's comments about the power of positive thinking very interesting because I think many of us have got this bug and think that there is this kind of wave of belief and positivity that is transcending through the whole club and through the players. Ok, there are many people on here who think at best we could get fourth spot... but I'm not one; I think we can win it.
If anyone believes in fate and this 24-year thing, then think of the chances of Everton continuing this pattern if we had had a different manager after Smith, sacked him for not being good enough, then replaced that manager with someone else. We wouldn't have a cats chance unless we hired someone like Mourinho who is capable of turning things around in a short space of time and that would never happen with a shoestring budget to give him.
No, this is the only way that we could have any chance of keeping this particular statistic alive, through a slow building proccess by a very good manager. I hope I'm not reading too much into things but I am a believer and sometimes strange things happen in football, just look at Newcastle under Keegan when they won the First Division and then the following year nearly won the Premiership. A lot of that success was because there was a positivity and belief throughout the club.
I feel like a kid in a sweet shop with a big secret that only us Evertonians know.
70 Posted 13/08/2010 at 22:48:05
Have you forgotten the cup final against Chelsea? The team sweated blood to get there and then what? The most abject fucking surrender in the history of the club ? down, entirely to the coach.
This site used to be an alternative to bluekipper and the OS but I have noticed lately a lack of tolerance to any dissent. Not, may I add, from the editorial team but from the David Moyes fan club. I know I must sound like a miserable bastard but how about some balance?
71 Posted 14/08/2010 at 00:35:00
72 Posted 14/08/2010 at 02:51:22
Moyes, apparently is "unable to motivate the players." Hmmm. Just turned many of this team from average(ish) performers into players who play to the top of their ability, and whose values have quadrupled during their time at Everton.
"Can no-one come on and express doubts without getting stick?" Ridiculous comment Andy, borne out of paranoia. Just like when you said yesterday, "DM is not beyond criticism." And above,"I know I must sound like a miserable bastard but how about some balance?" It's called debate. Make your comments, fine. But stop whingeing just because most people disagree with you.
"The most abject fucking surrender in the history of the club, down, entirely to the coach." Make sure you don't understate it now, will you. Of course, it was nothing to do with Chelsea being the better side on the day, with a world-class left back who tore our right-hand side to shreds.
As others have said, Thomas Watson (#14) sums it up superbly. Great post.
A possible scenario in 5 years time:
David Moyes has left Everton to go and manage one of the Old Firm. We have the same board and chairman, and of course still have no money. Fans fondly look back to the Moyes era wishing we still had players like Arteta, Fellaini and Rodwell, who moved on when Moyes left. We have had to start from square one again with a new manager, who has no funds to buy players, and are languishing in mid-table. A campaign starts to get Moyes to come back, but he's not having any of it because he's winning SPL titles with...... (insert club).
Oh happy days....
73 Posted 15/08/2010 at 19:01:29
74 Posted 15/08/2010 at 19:05:17
And then people wonder why Moyes hasn't been sacked. Before he arrived, we were constant bottom-half laughing stock of our neighbours across the park. Mark my words, when Moyes leaves (which is most likely to happen in the next few years!) we will return to what we were like (bottom half drivel) because, believe me, there is no-one we can afford and most managers that we can't that will do nowhere near enough as good a job as Moyes.
75 Posted 15/08/2010 at 19:13:41
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