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Where does Howard rate?

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Short and sweet: where in terms of Premier League goalkeepers do you rate Tim Howard?

For me, there are at least 13 keepers in the Prem who are all better than Howard. Time and again, he makes poor decisions, is painfully slow to get off his line, and does not command his area well at all.

To his credit, he does occasionally make world class saves where I think "How on earth did he get that?" ... but, for me, the fundamentals are much more improtant than eye-catching saves.

If Mucha is genuinely here to challenge rather than play second fiddle, I hope he gets his chance sooner rather than later.
Stephen  Kenny, Liverpool     Posted 14/08/2010 at 23:26:19

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Robert Daniels
1   Posted 15/08/2010 at 00:28:30

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Well said, Steven!

Remember Kuyt in the derby, he's a liability... and Brad Friedel's a better keeper; D James, etc etc...
Tony J Williams
2   Posted 15/08/2010 at 00:33:12

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Can you name the 13?
Michael Kenrick
3   Posted 15/08/2010 at 00:24:17

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I was thinking about this, and how Moyes's tactic of bringing in Mucha "to put pressure on Howard" may now be expected to play out.

If fellow World Cup goalkeeper Jan Mucha is really here as "competition" for Howard, then I wonder under what other circumstances than such a horrendous match-losing error would Moyes deem it appropriate to demote his American star to the bench?

The thought struck me that, if he really was serious about this, then Howard should have by rights been replaced at half-time. Far too Draconian, of course... but how else is this "pressure" and "competition" to be applied? Perhaps as a result of totting up otherwise meaningless 'three and in' routines during training???

I'm being facetious, but to make the point here: Howard should have been replaced sooner rather than later for making such an error. I think it should have been during the game to really make the point that such errors are totally unacceptable.

At a minimum, Howard should be dropped to the bench for Wolves game, and Mucha given his Everton debut. But will that happen? I very much doubt it. In which case, I will ask "What is the point of having Mucha here?" It is only as a stand-in if Howard gets injured... Which would be completely contrary to what Moyes told us when he bought Mucha onboard.
Tony J Williams
4   Posted 15/08/2010 at 00:34:54

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I will try: Hart; Given; possibly Robinson, but he has had howlers; Gomes also has stinkers so I wouldn't say he was better; Reina, Cech; are we having Calamity James? Seems strange, as you don't get that nick name for being at the top of your game; Van der Sar; Friedel....... starting to struggle now. I don't see Swartzer or Almunia as being better. Definitely not 13.
Tony J Williams
5   Posted 15/08/2010 at 00:38:22

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So what you are saying then Michael, that whoever is in goal for us now should never make a mistake or he should be subbed/dropped straight away? What do we do if Mucha has a stinker against Wolves if he were to play? Get Turner back from his loan?
Andy Crooks
6   Posted 15/08/2010 at 00:42:10

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Michael, you are far too harsh. Howard made a drastic mistake but to replace him would be unproductive. There isn't a good goalkeeper in the Premier League. Bolton have had the best goalkeeper by some distance. To drop Howard now would shatter his confidence. To blame any player today is unfair, it was shite throughout the team and too many were hiding.
Mike Allison
7   Posted 15/08/2010 at 00:39:56

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One error then dropped is definitely not Moyes's style, but a home game against Wolves is the type of game to bring Mucha in to.

'Calamity' James was a top-class goalkeeper who's concentration could wander. However, the fact that he plays for Bristol City in The Championship means that as Premier League goalkeepers go, he isn't one.

As for the Premier League's goalkeepers...

Arsenal, no, Howard is better than Almunia.
Aston Villa, Friedel is better. 1
Birmingham, Ben Foster hasn't done enough to show he's better than Howard, so no.
Blackburn, I'd agree that Robinson is better, and should have been in England's World Cup Squad. 2
Blackpool, Gilks, no.
Bolton, Jaaskelainen, until last season I would have said he was better, given today's error he probably still edges it. 3
Chelsea, Cech, yes. 4
Fulham, Schwarzer, yes. 5
Liverpool, Reina, hate to say it, but yes. 6
Man City. Given and Hart are both better, 7 & 8.
Man Utd, Van der Sar, doesn't seem to be fading with age and stays reliable, yes. 9
Newcastle, Harper, no.
Stoke, Sorensen, no.
Sunderland, Mignolet played today, don't know who he is, so I'm saying no. First choice is Gordon, I know he cost £9M, but I still think no.
Tottenham, Gomes, makes world class saves (which Howard doesn't by the way) but can look very shaky and I've never really rated him, but his form over most of last season puts him ahead of Howard in my eyes, so yes. 10
West Brom, Scott Carson, England's second worst ever goalkeeper (after Richard Wright), no.
West Ham, Rob Green, probably England's third worst ever goalkeeper, no.
Wigan, Kirkland, if you think Howard was bad today... no.
Wolves, Hahnemann, not bad, but not as good as Howard, no.

That makes 10 goalkeepers better than Howard in the league, one huge error doesn't make him a liability, but neither is he World Class or anything special. He's decent, usually reliable, and there are better guys out there, but with no money to buy them, why moan about it? I would like to see Mucha given a chance to really make the point that Howard can't take anything for granted, but it's not Moyes's style so don't expect it vs Wolves, although I would be surprised if he doesn't get to face Huddersfield.

Robert Daniels
8   Posted 15/08/2010 at 00:58:05

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Sorry, lads, but Howard's a liability: Kuyt's performance in the derby; Tim flapping about was keystone cops at best. He's a good shot stopper and that's it! The rest of his game is shite... usual Moyes keeper then, with the exception of Nigel Martyn.

I think Turner looked better; I wasn't too keen on Mucha's performance in the World Cup, but I'll reserve my judgement.
A great keeper might make all the difference between a good team and great team.

Robert Daniels
9   Posted 15/08/2010 at 01:07:16

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Mike, that's a good opinion over the goalkeepers in the Prem, and as such you have answered the question yourself: he isn't good enough! If we're top four, shouldn't we have a top four keeper ? not the eleventh best keeper in the league? You're right and so is Michael and me, he's a weak link!
Andy Crooks
10   Posted 15/08/2010 at 01:22:11

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Robert, you seem to concur with my views and as a lone voice on the site over the past weeks I am reluctant to disagree with you . But... like Michael you are too harsh.

Turner looked superb at Wednesday and I have a mate who supports them who agrees with that; so what did the signing of Mucha say to him? Same goes for Ruddy. Nash? What was that about?

Look at the heritage of British goalkeepers: Scott, Hodgkinson, Springett, Banks, Jennings, SOUTHALL, Martin, Clements, Shilton and the Arsenal guy with the ponytail. It is a position which, unlike any other, has been devalued. Tim Howard is an average goalkeeper among a league of avarage goalkeepers. He will save more points than he loses. Give him a break.

Brendan O'Doherty
11   Posted 15/08/2010 at 01:42:54

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Listening to DM's post -match interview on Sky, he intimated that continued goalkeeping lapses like today's wouldn't be acceptable. Words along the lines of "we're now in a position to do something about it" (I'm paraphrasing).

So I think TH has been given (no pun intended Shay) a 'yellow card'. As Andy says, it would be too harsh to drop him after one clanger, especially as he and a few others were just back from a long trip abroad.

Really top 'keepers are hard to come by these days.
Although Shay Given is apparently available....
James Stewart
12   Posted 15/08/2010 at 01:50:31

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I like Howard. He comes across as an intelligent and all round nice guy whenever I have seen him interviewed.

However I don't think he is of the standard we need. Great goalkeepers save you vital points over the course of the season and I'm afraid Howard is already on -3.

Its not the first time and it wont be the last he drops a clanger. Sadly after watching Mucha in the world cup I don't think he would be any better though!

Howard is simply average. Hes no Richard Wright but then he's no Big nev or Nigel eiher!
James Stewart
13   Posted 15/08/2010 at 01:58:00

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Given would be the ideal replacement but sadly we don't have the £
Eric Myles
14   Posted 15/08/2010 at 03:02:06

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The annoying thing about the clanger is that he actually caught the ball with both hands. Then instead of doing the 1st thing a goalie is taught, clutch the ball to your chest, he tucks it under 1 arm before he's back on the ground.
Criminal mistake a schoolboy should know better than to make.
Mike McLean
15   Posted 15/08/2010 at 05:01:03

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Andy Crooks, you certainly aren't on your own. Got slaughtered on here a few weeks ago. There was thread about believing we could win the league and I pointed out that with a GK like Tim, we couldn't.

For me, it's not so much that he makes bad decisions; it's more that he fails to make any decisions, especially at pressure points such as corners.

Maybe in a parallel universe he's good enough. In the one I'm inhabiting, he isn't.
Albert Perkins
16   Posted 15/08/2010 at 06:11:01

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The teams that win things have outstanding keepers. (Except for Liverpool who had the flying pig.) Remember Southall's save at Spurs? And the '95 FA Cup Final? And I remember Gordon West making at least 3 outstanding saves each match when we won the league.

Give Mucha a chance against Huddersfield. Moyes likes Howard because of his spirit and international status but it's time to try someone else to see if they can control the penalty area to more effect.
Brian Lawlor
17   Posted 15/08/2010 at 08:40:29

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James ? don't you mean Howard is on -1? If he hadn't have conceeded, we would have drawn. We were shite and didn't look like scoring.
Tony I'Anson
18   Posted 15/08/2010 at 08:51:12

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The difference between 8th and winning the league is down to incidents like this. I would also put the outfield players missing sitters into this category.

I recall watching Big Nev in the 800s from the Gwladys, thinking he was bored for most of a gam... then, come the last minute, he would pull off a great save for us to win the game. Or the opponents' last-minute corner would come over, and he would rise like a salmon to grab the ball, leaving a trail of destruction behind him. All our players knew this and had the confidence to let him get on with it.

And that's the point. DM and the players will know if they are starting to lose confidence in TH. if they are, it's time for a change.

Jimmy Hacking
19   Posted 15/08/2010 at 10:15:29

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In the 20-odd years I've followed Everton, Howard is up there with Nigel Martyn and second only to Neville Southall. Yes, arguably, he isn't a world class keeper, but then, arguably, we ain't a world class team.
David Hallwood
20   Posted 15/08/2010 at 10:03:49

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Schoolboy howler but it was in the 15 minute and we had plenty of time to turn the game around against a supposedly inferior opposition, and we managed a one shot on target in the game-and that was by a defender.

I only watched the extended highlights on Sky, but none of the mids were busting a gut to get into the box or running beyond the strolling Saha.

Do we need a better keeper? probably, but a keeper is way down the 'must buy' list
Kevin Gillen
21   Posted 15/08/2010 at 10:27:08

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Crap Everton keepers: Gerrard, Simonsen, Davies, Lawson. Worst ever Espen Baardsen v Spurs (often to be enjoyed on ESPN Classic). Howard doesn't come near that lot but to answer the question: he doesn't rate very highly in our house this morning. Best keepers 1. West (better than Banks); 2. Southall; 3. Martyn.
Mike Gwyer
22   Posted 15/08/2010 at 10:18:48

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Shame really.

The famous five tarting about in the middle were utter shite yesterday and lucky for them Tim goosed and, for them, it seems all is forgiven ?Tim will take the blame.

We have more issues than just the GK:

(1) We need a striker, not sure what the issue is with the Yak but my guess is that he is off to pastures new;

(2) We are in desperate need for someone out on the right, and this needs to happen pronto, because Moyes may well stick with Osman and that for me is THE major issue.

So back to the original question: Yep, Tim fucked up... but please look at the mob in front of him, especially the oh so mighty famous five in the middle!

Tim does a good job between the sticks, in the first half he seemed to be making some kind of save every other minute, mainly because we could not keep the ball or, worse still, were giving the ball away ? Pienaar in particular. Hey, that's a good idea... let's ridicule Pienaar now!

Chris Cook
23   Posted 15/08/2010 at 10:50:59

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It's all good saying that you like Turner more than Howard, but what good is a keeper who can't last 18 mins in his first competitive match of the season?
Neil Steele
24   Posted 15/08/2010 at 11:40:35

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Some of you are so disloyal it's untrue. That's before I even go on to the obvious fact that some obviously haven't got the first clue about the players you are comparing him with.

Tim Howard is a top keeper and yesterday's clanger was totally out of character for him. Anyone who thinks the likes of Schwarzer or even Friedel are better than him though... you need to watch more football. Friedel is a great shot-stopper... but he is welded to his line, that isn't the mark of a top goalkeeper. Schwarzer, well... just laughable. I'd love him to sign for Arsenal then people will finally see just how bad he is.

John McLoughlin
25   Posted 15/08/2010 at 11:40:50

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Howard is a decent keeper, he does make mistakes like most goalkeepers do, The ones in the league that are better than him, and i dont think there are that many, are the ones we can't afford. Obviously he's not in Southall's class but then who in the PL is?

As for rating Turner over him... on what basis? Maybe the Man Utd game where his horrible mistake cost us the game. But I agree with Mike (#22): Howard's mistake glossed over the inept showing from what some posters on this site believe is the best midfield in the league. As I said in that thread, its no good us talking... it its time they started proving it.

Gavin Ramejkis
26   Posted 15/08/2010 at 12:11:38

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Every player has off-days... it's just that, when a keeper has an off-day, it usually ends up in tears.

A great keeper can earn you a lot of points, look at Schmeichel and Seaman who both earned Man U and Arsenal a lot of points, the latter having never truly been replaced by another quality keeper. Van der Sar doesn't seem to age and has helped Man U to a lot of points, similarly Jaaskalainen has probably helped a piss poor Bolton stay up a few times. Hart is undoubtedly a good keeper, as his keeping of Man City in a one-sided game yesterday shows... but he too is prone to errors. Given is a decent keeper, as are Reina and Cech, even if Cech has never been as fearless since his head injury.

To me, there's no truly outstanding keepers out there at the moment ? just good ones... and all are prone to off-days.

Kevin Hudson
27   Posted 15/08/2010 at 12:23:38

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Great shout, Michael Kenrick.

If we're to only see Mucha playing against Huddersfield et al,then this is not good for the goalkeeping department. I submitted an article last season stating that Tim needs proper competition, as he's increasingly becoming a liabilty, and not the paragon of reliability a potential top side desperately craves.
Anthony Hughes
28   Posted 15/08/2010 at 12:29:35

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Howard is a decent keeper and I agree with Gavin: when a keeper makes a boo-boo, it's usually punished with a goal. The big problem yesterday was team selection and style of play which stops us from having any chance of getting back into the game. It took until injury time to pull a save out of Paul Robinson... which says it all really.
Jarrod Prosser
29   Posted 15/08/2010 at 12:56:30

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Two seasons back i wrote an article for a local publication about the Prem league GK's. I had Howard ranked as 8th, at that time.

Looking through the squad lists for this season, and based soley on #1's for thier clubs (therefore can't include Shay Given at this stage, even though he's a bit of a favorite of mine) i'd have him ranked 10th (11th if Given moves on).

Who do i have ahead of him? In no particular order: Freidel, Jaaskelainen, Cech, Schwarzer, Reina, Hart, Van Der Sar, Sorensen & Gomes. Rate Craing Gordon, too (if he gets his body right).

Essentially, we are expecting to be top 6 at a minimum, but are trying to get there with a mid table keeper. He's not a bad keeper by any means, our Tim. And at his peak he's truly world class. He's just not a consistant performer. Think a mid 90's David James, perhaps?
Jarrod Prosser
30   Posted 15/08/2010 at 13:07:44

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Re-reading, perhaps 'world class' is overstating it a bit!
Neil Steele
31   Posted 15/08/2010 at 13:25:08

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Jarrod, I think your judgement on those other keepers is miles off. There is just no way that Jaaskelainen, Schwarzer, Sorensen or Gomes are as good as TH. It's amazing what people decide from watching highlights. Those keepers have all made real elementary gaffes on numerous occasions. There is a big difference between being a good shot-stopper and being an all-round good keeper. TH has the package.
Stephen Kenny
32   Posted 15/08/2010 at 13:32:26

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Neil,

Usually all the teams mentioned are playing around the same times as us, so I assume you make a point of wathcing every prem game in full? Otherwise there is only highlights to judge from, assuming they don't go to aways, which in the majority I do and you probably do too as you have gone to the trouble of setting your own EFC site up, and it's much easier to judge a keeper that way. It's not disloyal to say that some keepers are better than TH when, to me and the majority on this thread, that is clearly true! I think the opposite is true, He is a good shotstopper but a poor all-rounder.

For the record, here are the keepers I believe to be better than TH:

Cech
Friedel
Robinson
Foster
Gordon
Schwarzer
Jaaskelienen
Hart
Given
Reina
VD Sar
Kuschak
Green
Stephen Kenny
33   Posted 15/08/2010 at 13:32:26

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Neil,

Usually all the teams mentioned are playing around the same times as us, so I assume you make a point of wathcing every prem game in full? Otherwise there is only highlights to judge from, assuming they dont go to aways, which in the majority I do and you probably do too as you have gone to the trouble of setting your own EFC site up, and it's much easier to judge a keeper that way . It's not disloyal to say that some keeper's are better than TH when to me and the majority on this thread that is clearly true! I think the opposite is true, He is a good shotstopper but a poor all rounder.

For the record here are the keeper's I believe to be better than TH.

Cech
Friedel
Robinson
Foster
Gordon
Schwarzer
Jaaskelienen
Hart
Given
Reina
VD Sar
Kuschak
Green
Tony J Williams
34   Posted 15/08/2010 at 14:21:18

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Foster??... Lord, give us strength. Just one comparison, ermmm... the European game, ball coming to him... where is it? Oh, it's in the goal... same with Green. Blinded by a bad result.

Howard annoys the Hell out of me, as he won't leave his line but some of the comments on here are simply ridiculous.
Stephen Kenny
35   Posted 15/08/2010 at 14:28:57

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Tony, we could highlight a serious error from every keeper in the league if we wanted, the nature of the game today means that this will happen. I never posted this solely because of yesterday's error, it's more 2-3 years of watching poor goalkeeping, as well as serious mistakes in big games. Gerrard, Kuyt, Wright Phillips and loads of long shots sailing over his head makes me believe we could do a lot better.
Richard Reeves
36   Posted 15/08/2010 at 14:08:41

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Moyes will keep faith in Howard and play him for the next game but, in terms of how good he is, I think he is overrated and have for some time. Don't get me wrong, he is a good keeper and a good shot-stopper but his decision-making is poor at times.I've noticed that he is good at making saves within an arms length of his body or so but he doesn't seem to have much spring or strength in his legs to make those far-reaching saves.

I have said previously that he is probably our number one and I still think that but I have been disappointed that Turner hasn't been given more playing time in the first team because I've always thought he looks good and if he had have done then by now he would be competing for that place. Turner looked good in pre-season and seems to have elastic arms. I hope the lad does well at Coventry and shows Moyes that he should be in contention for the first team but why it would have taken this long I don't know.

Jay Harris
37   Posted 15/08/2010 at 15:05:42

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Tim Howard IS a very good GK.

The only problem I can see is his nerves as he does tend to bottle it particularly on balls in the air which is quite surprising when you consider his background was in Basketball.

There are NOT that many better keepers in the Prem right now and you have to remember the Van der Saars and Peter Cechs of this world built their reputation playing behind some of the best defenders in the world.

Having said all that the fact that he panics under pressure undoubtedly unsettles the defenders too but having watched Mucha in a number of games in the WC I dont think he's a patch on Howard and Turner is still learning his trade before being exposed to the Prem.
Ray Robinson
38   Posted 15/08/2010 at 16:04:12

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Jay, thank Heavens for some common sense. The best he is not but he's really not that bad and, short of blowing our transfer budget on a better goalie, he's the best we're going to get unless we can develop or unearth another Joe Hart from the lower leagues.

Yesterday's blunder does not make him a bad keeper - it makes him a careless, complacent one - who should have gathered the ball into his chest instead of doing a one-handed skip and a jump. That he can learn and eradicate.

As for some of the "better" keepers suggested on here, well I've been brought up to respect other people's opinions, but Green, Carson, Jaaskaleinen etc, make we want to laugh. The latter is a brilliant shot stopper (second to none) but holds absolutely nothing. A while back someone actually suggested Myhill, for God's sake.

Howrd's not a Southall, a West or a Martyn (in his prime) but a bad keeper, despite his weaknesses, he certainly is not! I would rate him the 4th best EFC keeper that I've seen in my near 50 years following the club.
Andy Crooks
39   Posted 15/08/2010 at 17:23:26

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Jay Harris, well said.
Chris Cook
40   Posted 15/08/2010 at 17:52:05

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Still believe Reina's better than Howard? ;)

See every keeper has a bad day.
Brendan O'Doherty
41   Posted 15/08/2010 at 17:51:37

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Having just seen Reina throw the ball into his own net to cost the RS 2 points, the world seems a much better place, and TH's error yesterday looks minor in comparison.
Ray Roche
42   Posted 15/08/2010 at 17:12:00

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Ray Robinson.

I agree with your comments re Howard, he's probably the best after Nev, Martyn and West, in that order. And I saw them all play as you did. Howard's not great but he's better than most in the Prem.

Cech, Friedel, Robinson, Foster, Gordon, Schwarzer, Jaaskelienen, Hart, Given, Reina, Van der Sar, Kuschak, Green have all been mentioned by someone on here as being better. You're havin' a laff.

Cech, at his best (he bottles it now), Reina, and a young Van Der Saar or Jaaskelienen may be better but Friedel, Gordon and Foster, ffs... please, don't talk crap. Hart, in time, may prove to be a great goalie, but he's still too young and inexperienced right now.

Ray Robinson
43   Posted 15/08/2010 at 18:56:18

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Reina's rubbish isn't he? For anyone who thinks I'm being serious, I rate him as the League's best keeper - and yet even he drops occasional clangers!
Guy Hastings
44   Posted 15/08/2010 at 20:41:15

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Yeah, right - let's just drop TH. Horatio Nelson, Helen Keller, Dr Richard Kimbel's nemesis, the Black Knight from Monty's Python's Holy Grail and Abu Hamzu vwould all do a better job, And that lad across the park has probably just been transfer-listed, too.
Nick Entwistle
45   Posted 15/08/2010 at 22:19:06

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HEHEHEHE, HOO HOO HAHA... my weekend has been made. Still prefer the 'save' he made before AJ snuck one in.
Ray Roche
46   Posted 15/08/2010 at 22:21:06

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Yes, Nick, remember the "Pepe The Clown" jibes, and now he's miles better than TH according to the experts on here. But, wait a minute, he's just dropped a bollock, too! So maybe he'll be dropped by Woy to make way for some no-mark keeper!!
Mike Allison
47   Posted 15/08/2010 at 23:16:06

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Post 29 - "Think a mid-90s David James"

Howard is the exact opposite of that in goalkeeping terms. James could look world class, do amazing things, great saves, imposing himself on the high ball and take crosses well at their apex, then drop a massive clanger to lose the game. Howard does the basics well and rarely makes mistakes, but neither does he do anything special or take command the way a top goalkeeper does, and shots go past him that he should save. Howard's not brilliant and he has his faults, but this one huge clanger seems to have blinded people or affected their memories quite badly.
Afzan Yusuf
48   Posted 16/08/2010 at 03:10:17

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Guy #44
It's Abu Hamza.... and... who is this guy???
Rob Duerr
49   Posted 16/08/2010 at 03:14:02

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I had often wondered why England continually field mistake-prone emotionally fragile net-minders. It could be the fact that behind each professional goalkeeper there is a mass of fans who are ready to pounce upon each mistake and ridicule their play as "shite".

"Tim Howard is already -3 (cost us 3 points)" but we didn't score did we? How many games are we going to win without scoring? So TH is -1. Let's revisit this next May.

Finally I don't agree with the logic that if we are a top 6 team then we need a top 6 goalkeeper. If we are a top 6 team we need to have a top 6 team. Everyone puts in their shifts, everyone will carry the load, and everyone will make mistakes.
Jackie Barry
50   Posted 16/08/2010 at 03:45:28

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Someone mentioned earlier about Moyes saying on Sky Sports that mistakes like Howard's will not be acceptable? Well, how about mistakes with team selection and tactics no longer being acceptable, Mr Moyes? Howard's error was a clanger but let's not let it cover over the huge error in team selection that Davie boy made.
Alan Clarke
51   Posted 16/08/2010 at 09:02:47

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I heard Pat Nevin on the radio before a Slovakia game during the World Cup saying he'd spoken to David Moyes about Mucha. Nevin reckons Mucha will be Moyes' first choice this season.

He can't really be any worse than Howard.
Guy Hastings
52   Posted 16/08/2010 at 09:08:45

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No48 - apologies for the slip of the hand on the keyboard. Guess it's what you might call irony.

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