Wiser people than me have pointed out that Seamus Coleman is not ready to take over from either Hibbert or Neville because he is subject to the odd defensive lapse. I understand this.
It is perfectly understandable that people want a watertight defence and that they require a full back whose first talent is defensive capability.
Could an increasingly confused oldster ask one question? It's this: which of the current starting eleven doesn't make mistakes? Which of them has such a perfect definition of his role, that we are never exposed to a gasp of incredulity when he gives the ball away; fails to take up the right position; presents the ball to the foot of an opposing attacker?
Seamus may have an unrefined knowledge of defensive duties at present, but seems to possess something the team has lacked for too long; the offensive flair which frightens defenders. In my, perhaps unwise, estimation, attack is the best form of defence, and were it not for a Manager who is ultra-cautious, we might have within our ranks the man who could do the "Bale" role equally as well as Bale himself.
This is not an anti-Moyes rant by any means. It is simply a request for a more in-depth analysis of why Seamus should be sitting on the bench rather than owning the arses of opposition full-backs.
Mike McLean, Posted 26/08/2010 at 08:08:39
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1 Posted 26/08/2010 at 14:14:53
Coleman's first half performance was a mix of confidence on the ball and poor defensive play. He didn't challenge for a header on the back post which Mucha palmed away well, and he lost his marker for the goal. The second half however showed his attacking qualities and he caused chaos down the right-hand side.
If Seamus could focus on his defensive game and combine that with his obvious attacking talents, we could have a real gem on our hands. My concern at the moment is that his defensive side of the game (and let's be clear, this is the baseline requirement for a full back) needs some work and this may hinder his chances of starting games this season. If he grafts and works on his defensive responsibilities we could have the best attacking full-back I will have seen in an Everton shirt (I'm 30 by the way).
I'm sure Moyesie, Neville and Hibbo also see his raw talent and are already working on this side of his game (and if they aren't, they need to) so here's hoping we have a mouth-watering right full-back on our hands and another low-price purchase who becomes a first team regular for years to come.
2 Posted 26/08/2010 at 14:15:59
3 Posted 26/08/2010 at 14:14:33
Personally I don't see any harm in giving Coleman a role on the right side of Midfield with Hibbert backing him up.
Moyes pushed Felliani forward when he didn't think he could handle the responsibility of DM at the time and is now doing the same with Rodwell.
One things for sure: Coleman won't progress his game in the reserves, he needs to be getting regular PL action.
4 Posted 26/08/2010 at 14:22:03
The safe 11 did a fantastic job against Blackburn and Wolves, didn't they! Boy would I like to see those kind of performances all season... NOT!
Now is a time for youth. Play Rodwell, Play Coleman, Play Gueye. Let them make mistakes and learn! I don't think we look defensively sound with Neville at right back at all. So what's to lose?!
5 Posted 26/08/2010 at 14:30:48
6 Posted 26/08/2010 at 14:28:12
7 Posted 26/08/2010 at 14:21:58
Agree 100% with your post. Seamus looked excellent going forward last night and was a constant threat, just like he is every time he plays. However, he also was suspect in defence a number of times leaving a lot of space open to Huddersfield. In my opinion, if he is to play at this moment in time, it has to be as a right-sided midfielder ahead of either Neville or Hibbert. I personally would not be that confident throwing him on as an out-and-out right-back at this stage of his development against the likes of Chelsea and Man Utd etc etc.
8 Posted 26/08/2010 at 14:34:41
Secondly, without starting the pro-Hibbo / anti-Hibbo arguement, to me, Coleman's defensive lapses are on a par with Hibbo anyway. Constantly caught napping with long diagonal balls from right to left.
All said, it's Neville 1, Coleman backup, Hibbo off to finish in the lower leagues, a la Naysmith.
9 Posted 26/08/2010 at 15:04:47
10 Posted 26/08/2010 at 14:58:11
If people are so quick to overlook Colemans' faults, then why not everyone else's?
11 Posted 26/08/2010 at 15:35:57
Coleman could potentially out-Bale Bale himself!!!
12 Posted 26/08/2010 at 15:44:20
13 Posted 26/08/2010 at 15:41:50
And around 9 months ago, Seamus debuted off the bench and skinned the opposing left back a number of times - that LB was a certain Gareth Bale!
He has got to be worth a least a place on the bench getting 20 minutes here and there to mix things up on the right wing.
14 Posted 26/08/2010 at 15:54:15
But I have to disagree Neville is more experienced but I would not agree that makes him automatically a better footballer.
Neville's, Hibbo's and Jagielka's distribution is terrible. So what's the point of winning the ball if you automatically give it away to your opponents? We need to be more attack-minded, don't play him in midfield play Coleman at full back and let's play more of our football in the opposition's half.
He will make errors just as Neville and Hibbert do but he will offer something going forward neither of them have or will ever be capable of ? creating and scoring goals!
We have to be more positive if we are ever going to win anything... plus, I want to be entertained.
15 Posted 26/08/2010 at 16:15:16
Moyes got it wrong leaving Baines on the bench for almost an entire season (he's been in the team ever since) and I'm convinced the same will prove true with Coleman.
It's not IMWT 100%. He is fallible, conservative and tentative to make changes, but in this instance, he needs to grow some balls and reward a player who makes things happen every time he plays.
16 Posted 26/08/2010 at 16:24:19
Surely making mistakes is an essential part of development, isn't it? I would be happy to see Moyes blood him for a dozen games, at the expense of Hibbert or Neville.
17 Posted 26/08/2010 at 16:34:25
"I dont necessarily think he is bad defensively as he was last night. I just think he is very raw, inexperienced and it would be risky to expose what could ba really big weakness in our back line. He is committed, prepared to tackle when needed and quick to get back but I do think he needs a lot of work in training to be ready to defend against good players.
Right wing? Sceptical. My worry is that it is completely different attacking as a winger to as a full back. A lot of his outstanding work last night was when the winger had the ball and played him in as their defence was square. It is perfect for him to get on the move and go for their throats as they are still turning back. Once he gets in that position he is near on unstoppable because of how quick he is, how close he keeps the ball to him and howe composed he is on the ball when in a tight position.
As a winger he wouldnt have the luxury of being played in very often, of being given the ball on the run around their box. The pressure would be on him to take the man on from a standing start, being able to work space when he has a winger and a full back on him as opposed to just one when he gets played in. That and his best attacks are almost a surprise where he catches the opposition sleeping when he bombs forward and it gives us men over on them. Suddenly giving him the ball with a two on one situation is very hard to do and completely different to what he is used to doing.
Baines for instance is excellent going forward but is awful left wing. His good attacking work is linking up and getting in behing, put him on a one on one situation even and he generally loses the ball very easily. Play him in behind one on one when all he has to do is get the ball out of his feet and cross and he is one of the best in the league at it. Now I think Coleman would have a better shot on the wing than Baines because his dribbling is far better. Maybe it is worth a go as a sub one time if our midfield isnt doing anything, such as bringing him on against Wolves instead of Ossie.
One thing is for sure, I am pretty sure Moyes will have tried him there in training to see how he does given our lack of pace in midfield and his obvious attacking talents. And if he doesnt use him there ever it is because he cant play the role.
18 Posted 26/08/2010 at 16:40:33
Imagine the criticism from these fans if he did something really naive defensively, like fail to get goal side of his man in a derby match from a corner.
19 Posted 26/08/2010 at 16:50:25
For me, DM should be selecting Coleman against virtually any team that we have to take the game to. Sticking with Hibbert and Neville is too negative, and we need an attacking outlet down the flanks and a degree of unpredictability - any team will zoom focus on our left side as being the main threat right now.
I would be very wary about throwing him in against some teams and players who could expose his defensive flaws - a bit like how Man City took full advantage of Agger/Jovanovic on Monday night. Hibbert is very reliable in those games and I would go with him or Neville - just give Coleman the game time when we have to break teams down.
Horses for courses.
20 Posted 26/08/2010 at 16:51:45
Similarly, on our left wing, the Baines/Pienaar axis works as well as Pienaar tucks in giving Baines the free lane. If Coleman goes to right wing, I do not know if he has the necessary technique and skills to do the same.
21 Posted 26/08/2010 at 16:58:59
Kevin (16) hits the nail on the head when he says mistakes are part of the development, but this lad has too many in him at the moment. He`s a crowd pleaser alright, but he won't get away with these lapses in the Prem and if he starts costing us points, the affection he now recieves from the Goodison faithful will be very short-lived.
It's not a question of caution. It's about nurturing the boy. He`s obviously a late developer, but that doesn't mean he can't become a great.
Softly, softly does it, stand back... give him some air!
22 Posted 26/08/2010 at 18:00:52
I have said it to the point where I am boring myself but.....Seamus Coleman and Shane Duffy will be top quality players. At least give Seamus a chance. His attitude is similar to that of Phil Neville, a proper professional, but he has pace and can cross. Duffy is way done the pecking order and I wouldn't mind if he was loaned out. Heitinga and Distin should be our first choice but Shanes's chance will come next season. He is quality.Believe.
23 Posted 26/08/2010 at 18:33:54
Problem with that is "ON PAPER" Villa should've thrashed the barcodes and look what happened there!
I also read that Cloeman started out as a midfielder. And doesn't it show.
On what I've seen so far, whose brilliant idea was it to change him into a right fullback???
The only player for us who can come close to wide right and has the skill to play well in that role is Arteta. Problem is we want him where he's at his most valuable and that's in the centre.
I say start him against Villa wide right and what the hell.
24 Posted 26/08/2010 at 18:44:57
Bad for us and bad for him.
Of course he must get experience but to start him away against one of our direct rivals is to put a lot of pressure on him. Moyes has kept him here to work specifically on his defending and I'm sure as the season goes on we will see more and more of him but softly, softly.
Having said all that, I reckon seeing him start against Villa would bring a smile to my face!
25 Posted 26/08/2010 at 18:59:33
To see Coleman wide right and seeing him track back to help out in defence, Young will be totaly eradicated.
26 Posted 26/08/2010 at 19:04:33
Agree Dave, that would be my worry as well. And given the impatience and fickleness of some on here, when they turn on him it will be hero to zero.
Not what I would want for the future 1st choice Everton and Ireland right back.
27 Posted 26/08/2010 at 19:43:03
Now why didn't I think of that.....
28 Posted 26/08/2010 at 19:49:45
Lyndon Lloyd and Ciaran Spot on.
29 Posted 26/08/2010 at 19:50:37
Lyndon, Baines was on the bench for so long because the lad playing left back was playing an absolute stormer, scoring goals (double figures that season) and had been picked for England playing there. Baines was a proven Premier League player whereas Coleman has played about 100 minutes.
You can imagine John Carew on Sunday rubbing his hands together if Coleman was at right back... then again he probably would with Hibbert and Neville too!
30 Posted 26/08/2010 at 20:03:39
If you want to see Coleman at Right Wing, then down to the training ground. Because that's exactly where an idea like that needs to be developing. It's way too early to throw Coleman in the deep end at Right Wing just yet. Imagine what a bad game in that position will do to his confidence.
31 Posted 26/08/2010 at 20:17:20
32 Posted 26/08/2010 at 20:17:48
33 Posted 26/08/2010 at 20:32:04
But there's a difference between being on fire against Australian no-marks, Championship sides, League One sides and those ilk and fully fledged (and fully fit, not knackered at the end of a game) Premier League defenders/wingers.
I'm sure Moyes sees his level as it is, and will be bringing him on in due course. Probably as a long term replacement for Pip/Hibbert.
34 Posted 26/08/2010 at 20:42:42
35 Posted 26/08/2010 at 20:45:26
I think you're being a bit naive expecting Coleman to start games and become a world-beating right winger.
See Mike Dillon's post above (#33) for a bit of common sense.
36 Posted 26/08/2010 at 20:40:25
37 Posted 26/08/2010 at 21:17:38
Rodwell may or may not have changed the Blackburn and Wolves results, we will never know as he was kept off the field by DM; similarly, Coleman may or may not be able to change games we should be looking at taking by the scruff of the neck if we aspire to finish in a European qualification slot... yet again, we won't because DM isn't playing him or using him as a sub.
It is this scenario that creates speculation amongst fans and supporters, using the rationale that we are not the managers and we are never going to influence who comes on the pitch we can just discuss our ideas on the web and hope that things will change.
38 Posted 26/08/2010 at 21:40:30
I also mentioned Coleman in front of Hibbert or Neville for the same reason as Bale was moved forward at Spurs... unfortunately DM tends to nurse young players and stick with the older players out of loyalty. Fergie brought through a whole batch of young players at Man Utd years ago and was criticised by the media... youth has to have its turn and, if we are to progress, then players like Coleman and Rodwell must be played.
Players like Magaye should be on the bench and used sparingly at first.
39 Posted 26/08/2010 at 22:36:04
Personally, I'm undecided about his defensive qualities and would much prefer him to be given a start wide right; however, as others have already pointed out, we have players who regularly feature in the starting eleven and they continue to make mistakes in just about every other game they play and yet Moyes continues to select them.
I still believe his best position is wide right. This lad is tailor made for counter attacking football. How many times have we had opportunities to do just that but failed miserably due to no outlet on the right.
For those who claim he'd be a risk whatever position he plays how on earth can you justify such claims. We've tried just about everyone but Coleman and Howard in that position. Even Arteta came in for harsh criticism
As for claims he's the new Cafu or the Messiah. I honestly do not believe anyone truly sees him in that light. Most consider him a lad with potential who at his age should be aiming to break into the starting eleven.
At the end of the day, what other options do we have wide right? Can anyone honestly say Osman or anyone else for that matter represents a better option. It's a no-brainer. You only have to watch him play to see how much he prefers playing further up the park. I believe his game is adversely affected when he has to drop back and defend.
40 Posted 26/08/2010 at 23:01:31
I for one am certainly not in favour of him languishing in the reserves. I would certainly have him on the bench, and possibly bring him on if we are chasing the game. It's a bit early to judge whether or not DM sees it like that; some people seem to be over-reacting to the selections in the two PL games so far.
I do not necessarily think that Coleman is going to be 3rd choice RB this season. I just think that the clamour to immediately make him 1st choice at this point in the season risks him getting over-exposed by some of the PL's better left-sided players, and then the crowd turning on him as a result of a few defensive lapses.
I see him starting cup games this season and being used as an impact sub in the PL. Hopefully with 20 minutes here and there he will gain enough PL experience, and improve his defending, to become our 1st choice right-back for years to come.
And of course I hope he then does the same for Ireland.
41 Posted 26/08/2010 at 23:08:18
The first, that Lescott was playing out of his skin at left back at the time, if memory serves me right (open to correction if not the case).
The second is that Baines was an established, experienced Premier League player which may have something to do with him staying in the team after he got his chance. Incidentally, a lack of competition has for a year now been another reason, but that's for another day.
As an Evertonian and an Irishman, I personally would love to see Coleman given a chance for obvious reasons. As a ToffeeWeb reader, I would love to see him given a chance. if for no other reason than to end the clamour for his inclusion every time a point is dropped.
I don't necessarily agree he would be more effective at right mid as I believe playing further upfield would negate his ability to overlap from deep. I think he should be blooded sooner rather than later but Villa Park is not the place. We all have to consider the quality of opposition he has shone against. And I am including Bale at left back vs Spurs in that consideration.
42 Posted 26/08/2010 at 23:20:31
I am pretty certain that Moyes was aware of Baines's height before he spent £6M on him.
Per my previous post, the form of a certain Joleon Lescott at left back was more to do with Baines not being a regular in his first season. That and his own occasional defensive frailties, but they don't get pointed out so much because his name is not Hibbert, Osman or Neville.
43 Posted 26/08/2010 at 23:31:36
I would love to see Coleman given a run - and Moyes will do that at the right time. I am also not so sure that Coleman would be up for the defensive duty needed to mark Ashley Young at Villa Park this weekend.
The burning question for me this weekend is how to include both Fellaini and Rodwell into the first eleven. The only answer is to push Arteta on to the right side of midfield with Pienaar on the left and Cahil behind Louis.
44 Posted 27/08/2010 at 00:40:03
Hibbo received the ball so many times wide right with acres of space ahead of him but chose to play it 10 yards inside nearly every time. We were crying out for attacking width to stretch the play and at the very least give Arteta the chance of playing a through ball, or to get in behind the full back and get a decent cross in.
As someone who always saw the value of the solid but unadventurous Earl Barrett ahead of Matt Jackson when played behind Andrei Kanchelskis, in the interests of good balance, how about Coleman at right back with Neville at right mid? Neville is our best player for filling in gaps when others bomb on and has the intelligence to create space and play simple balls down the line for Coleman to do his stuff.
Not quite a substitute for a skillful, creative, eplosive, pacy, goalscoring winger, but Andrei?s retired now so it?s a case of needs must and has to be better than throwing on Ossie to create a winner from the right against Grocks United.
45 Posted 27/08/2010 at 01:55:14
46 Posted 27/08/2010 at 06:54:27
1. We're not going to be on the back foot all season. We're now a possession team and don't need our defenders to be out and out defensive... we have a greater expectation and a different requirement nowadays.
2. We haven't got a right midfielder, but do have a player (Bily) who is dangerous when given the opportunity to cut inside, with the width provided from another source.
Play him and get the best out of both him and Bily. Resolve our obvious formation deficiencies.
To me it seems too obvious to not happen. Allied to the points above - he's earned his chance, done everything we could have asked of him and more. Let the boy loose!
47 Posted 27/08/2010 at 06:58:39
Coleman Heitinga Jagielka Baines
48 Posted 27/08/2010 at 08:00:06
At the point where we can point to ten players and say, hand on heart, they are not susceptible to the occasional error, then we might want to look again at yer man (unless, of course, his defensive game has improved!).
I do take on board what his detractors say, but IMO, their arguments are not sufficiently strong to deny him his place.
In the meantime, to deny him a start because he has been examined with an intensity not applied the rest is to be, just in my view, rather narrow minded at the least. Of course, could easily be wrong, in which case I expect and accept that I will be burned in effigy by the kindly crew of Toffeeweb.
49 Posted 27/08/2010 at 08:54:13
Cahil would play central behind Saha - with pienaar left... and I would move Arteta out right to accomodate Fellaini and Rodwell in the middle.
As much as I would like Coleman to start against Villa, any defensive lapses will be dealt with by Ashley Young. However, having said that, he wont get much tougher tests if he does get the nod for Sunday.
50 Posted 27/08/2010 at 09:05:46
Whoever plays right back with probably last a halg or 60 minutes tops, as they will certainly get booked due to the diving of Young. Every person who watches football knows about Young's diving, unfortunately the dope in the middle withthe whistke is seemingly immune to the concept of cheating.
If he startes he will be booked within 10 minutes.
51 Posted 27/08/2010 at 09:25:59
I say: Give Coleman a run out at RB for a couple of Prem games but only with Felli / Rodwell infront of him.
52 Posted 27/08/2010 at 10:21:52
Certainly not Jags... and he's touted as one of the best in England
Certainly not JH... Huddersfield anyone??
So, just play Seamus Ramos please...
53 Posted 27/08/2010 at 10:51:32
54 Posted 27/08/2010 at 13:25:27
Give him a run, and us fans will help him by pointing out his mistakes!
55 Posted 27/08/2010 at 13:59:32
56 Posted 27/08/2010 at 13:44:34
I know Hibbert's not perfect but I think he's the right player to give Coleman the license to go forward; Hibbo was excellent against Wolves and for all his shortcomings has the experience to help Seamus out.
I think the club needs to see the opportunity it has with this lad. We could have a very good right winger on our hands without spending a penny, near enough. That's why I think we should invest some trust and time in the lad and maybe not play him in all the games but I think Villa is a chance to play him in a high-intensity, high-level game where there are weaknesses which he can take advantage of. Their left back's nothing special and Rapid scored off a break down the right last night, for example.
You never know, Coleman could have a field day if he's on his game! Rodwell is the player he is today at the tender age of 19 because Moyes gave him game time quickly. Coleman's not the same player but giving him time on the pitch in the EPL WILL improve his consistency and the mistakes WILL come in smaller numbers.
I'm not one of the people who says he has to start on Sunday, I would be happy as long as he comes off the bench if we are having trouble attacking, but I am looking to the future as well as Sunday.
57 Posted 27/08/2010 at 18:18:07
Imagine if we signed a right midfielder who put in the sort of performances Coleman has against Spurs (last season) and Huddersfield? People wouldn't shut up about it!
He's clearly got some defensive frailty and that undoubtedly needs some work. However, without wanting to sound cliched, the lad shows absolutely no fear attacking down the right and his overlapping the other night was superb to watch. Likewise vs. Tottenham and indeed Carlisle last year.
Of course the opposition needs to be taken into account but he also performed like this consistently for Blackpool last year. He has to be worth a shot at some point.
I've written a blog on this subject here (hope admins don't mind me posting the link - apologies if so): http://www.givemefootball.com/premier-league/another-rising-star-in-the-making-at-goodison
I don't think he'll start against Villa and indeed I'm not necessarily saying he DEFINITELY should, but at some point - even as a sub - I'd like to see him tried out on the right wing and see what he can offer.
58 Posted 27/08/2010 at 22:48:44
If DM plays him against opposition where we will win even with his mistakes, or when the game is won, thus building up his ability and his confidence so that he is ready to make the step up and not lose confidence will that be better?
And why was it a mistake to leave Baines on the bench? apart from the reasons already given maybe Baines wasn't physically or mentally ready at that time and if he had started all of those games he might not have developed the way that he has. It is wrong to make accusations based on what you don't know.
59 Posted 27/08/2010 at 23:03:06
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