Okay, so the window is now closed and it has been, even by our high standards, a low-key end to the window ? and that's saying something. Now that it is shut, I would like to particularly focus on Pienaar and "will he, won't he" sign a new contract?
A few things that need to be discussed.
- Everton have made him a great offer, if we are to believe reports of £60k per week. However great this offer may be, I feel we may need to go another £5-10k per week to get the deal signed. I personally think that Pienaar is worth this as I class him in our Top 3 Players along with Arteta and Fellaini. Also, it is his last contract and if we can get him signed long-term it will settle him and we will get the best years of Pienaar's footballing career gracing the pitch each and every other week at Goodison Park.
- The alternative. Well, this is for Mr Kenwright to dig in his heels not stump up the extra let's say £10k per week and Pienaar gets offered let's say £100k per week and signs a pre-contract agreement in January with for example Spurs.
Now the extra £10k per week would work out at £2.6M over 5 years... which, don't get me wrong, is a lot of money. The alternative, however, is to lose an asset worth £12-15M and get nothing but a Thank You card when he leaves for reserecting his career that had gone to shit in Germany.
Bill, stump up the bloody cash, for god's sake! It makes sense thinking with the heart and the head.
Brian Murphy, Posted 02/09/2010 at 11:52:47
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1 Posted 02/09/2010 at 14:54:16
If Arteta is on £75k then i should think Stevie P feels entitled to at least £65k.
2 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:01:22
3 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:06:27
To be fair though to Everton, they're sticking to their guns and probably don't want another situation where Campbell and Ferguson both on £40k per week sapped the club of money for a long time.
Not saying Pienaar's performances will be on their intermitant level, but you pay what you can afford.
4 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:21:49
5 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:21:38
Although maybe the players and agents mind is already planning on how to spend that fat signing on fee he'll get if he leaves for nothing at the end of the season.
Having said that, the long term lucrative contracts we've given to Arteta and Saha haven't exactly upped their game.
6 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:47:07
7 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:50:59
He isnt as good and he never will be. I also dont think that the problem is the money i think its the length of contract on offer. It may be worth offering the extra year, learn from our mistake this time round and get him sold for a nominal fee i.e. 2-3m which will be his worth at that age.
Solution - offer the same wages, 12 months longer, sell him with 18 months left for whatever his value is. This way we make some money back and are not going to spend any more like we would by giving him more dough every week.
8 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:54:11
You could look at it like, if we where to buy another player, to replace him, of equal qulaity, would the selling club let us buy him for 10k a week installments? I doubt it...
9 Posted 02/09/2010 at 15:58:19
10 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:01:59
I say give him what he wants now, whether that be £75k per week or not. Then, in the summer, offload him for £12-15M so that we don't have to pay his silly wages next season. And use the money to replace him with a younger player who is in their early 20s and more than happy to earn £40k a week max.
11 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:06:23
Personally I think he's already decided to run it down...
12 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:26:29
Couldn't agree more.
13 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:32:22
Good player undoubtedly but one who has drifting nowhere until rescued and if £3m per year aint enough to survive then let him fleece someone else.
How many games has he single handedly taken control of?? You can count them on....well.....a single hand.
14 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:41:24
15 Posted 02/09/2010 at 16:43:22
16 Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:02:55
He was quality last season, but he has done a number of consistent seasons like Arteta and Cahill to warrent their status.
If he wants to go else where for more money then fine, but I think he is actually easily replaced.
Do not get me wrong, I would like him to stay, but not if he is going to drain as much as he can out of the club.
17 Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:07:04
18 Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:19:20
I thought this was the reason why Johnson and Lescott weren't allowed to leave until they had formally handed in a transfer request, therefore relinquishing any claims to their remaining contracts.
19 Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:43:22
20 Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:39:57
The transfer window closing has told us (and likely him) one thing - no-one actually wanted him enough to bid a decent, acceptable, transfer amount (thats being kind - there may not have been any firm offer at all, just media speculation).
He didn't have the best of World Cups, and to be frank, he has been pretty average in his Everton career so far save for the last dozen or so games last season (we've all seen that before....). People seem to be forgetting that. He hasn't set the world (or even the Premier League) alight.
Don't get me wrong ? I don't want to lose Pienaar. But up till recently, he was very firmly behind Arteta in fans creative midfield pecking list.
It could of course be, people might argue, that shrewd clubs (or player) are waiting for the end of contract for a free move. But that's pretty rare to be honest ? the very best players there's too much competition to risk losing to another club.
No, I think the reality is that it's been a discerning, and quiet transfer window; clubs spent all the tv money a couple of seasons ago, are now raising finance to cover themselves to the next lot, and that puts us in a strong position to retain Pienaar for a reasonable amount.
21 Posted 02/09/2010 at 17:12:53
Personally, I don't know why people seem to have a bee in their bonnet about this Pienaar contract issue.
I don't think we should do it for all players but for him, if he want's £70K, then give him it. Like it has been said, the worst case scenario is that we sell him next year for a decent fee rather than have him go on a free.
In relation to these comments about a £60K a week offer, does anybody know that this is the case?
Erm, let me see..........Oh of course not. Therefore, the majority of the comments above are pure conjecture.
Finally, Pienaar inconsistent?! WTF? I often wonder if people see the same game as me. After a short time settling in, for me at least, he has been one of most consistent and better players.
22 Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:46:24
23 Posted 02/09/2010 at 18:56:31
The transfer window has closed.
My understanding is that when a player is within the final year (I think its 6 months or so before the end) of his contract, he is able to sign a pre-agreement with another club for a free transfer at the end of it - and thats what players are doing now. That would mean in the Jan transfer window, he'll be pretty much able to sign for a club for free.
No-one is going to pay £8m for him then.
24 Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:24:56
Obviously the answer would of been 'No' so from that moment on he should've been transfer listed for a REALISTIC amount, not these ludicrous claims of £15 million + you see and hear. Nobody (ok maybe Man City) is going to pay over the odds for a player with only 12 months remaining on his contract, foreign clubs can even agree a deal to get him for nothing the following summer in January!
The money raised from his sale could've been spent on a player who would've been signed up on a four year contract with wages matching Pienaar's current salary. Now it looks more and more likely we will lose Pienaar for nothing and can anyone honestly see Mr Kenwright providing enough money to find an adequate replacement?
I think it's another case of Moyes's stubborn approach to transfers, similar to the Lescott fiasco, which i thought he handled poorly.
25 Posted 02/09/2010 at 19:47:42
26 Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:11:23
27 Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:22:10
Sure he was very consistent last season but he hasn't done it for us for more than this one season (Yet!).
NB to editors, any chance we can have a bold, underline facilty in order to make things a bit more clearer for people?
28 Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:27:16
29 Posted 02/09/2010 at 20:48:36
30 Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:04:06
That to me would show to one and all that the club is bigger than any one player!
It would also show that we have someone shrewd doing the thinking in the club too!!!
31 Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:01:13
For him to hold the club to ransom is scandalous and shouldnt be allowed. IMO he has affected games on a far to infrequent basis and for him to be holding out for more money should not be tolerated.
I like him as a player and think if his mind is in the right place, then he can be a world beater, but that mind right scenario is never forthcoming on a CONSISTENT basis.
I had hoped we would've cashed in, in the summer window, but we have now made a rod for our own back and will have to let him see out the remainder of his contract, cos let's face it, he aint going to sign a new contract thats been on the table for some time now.
We have seen the best of him in a blue shirt and the sooner we realise he is going for nothing in Jan or the following summer, the less we will see these threads, because no matter what WE SAY, he is going and we can then push on with what is best for OUR CLUB !!
32 Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:34:56
All of a sudden, David Moyes has a queue outside his office: Fellaini, Heitinga, Cahill and any other player wanting to up the ante and break the Club's wage structure.
I was led to believe that Heitinga signed last season for £60k per week and he was then the Club's biggest earner. My personal opinion is that Arteta had to be given top dollar given the fact that in the eyes of everyone connected with the Club including the player's is the 'main-man'.
Unfortunately for Everton, we simply do not have the financial resources to be offering Pienaar that kind of money, and to be frank if he can't live on £60k per week given his background and impoverished upbringing then he needs to find a Club who is willing to pay what he is demanding.
33 Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:42:22
34 Posted 02/09/2010 at 21:45:24
35 Posted 02/09/2010 at 23:24:32
Moyes has stated that he will let Pienaar run down his contract rather than sell him and that is what has happened. I can't see Pienaar being on more than £20k/wk at the moment, if he is holding out for a 5-year contract @ an extra £50k/wk, that would cost Everton a cool £20M over the length of his contract, not counting bonuses.
He will be 29 in March 2011, 3 years later he will be virtually worthless on the transfer market. I would rather he had been sold as soon as the market opened up, but, typical Everton we do nothing until too late.
Save the money and use it to try and get someone like Marco Marin, or N'Zogbia, who was asking for £25k less per week, of Birmingham and who is only 24.
36 Posted 03/09/2010 at 00:10:58
Three inconsistent seasons, one good (over-rated) one... hmmm... reminds me of certain pint-sized Hull reject.
37 Posted 03/09/2010 at 02:10:41
Who was our Player of the Season last season?
Who was the only creative player on the field when Arteta was injured?
Who will we look to when Arteta gets injured again?
What would we do without him and no replacement bought 'cos he walked on a Bosman?
38 Posted 03/09/2010 at 01:40:33
Now I am not trying to justify footballers' salaries. I do think at an educated guess though that Pieneaar is likely to be more on around £40k a week. Again this sounds like, no it is, an obscene amount of money... But in relation to his profession it is not. For 99.999% of us on here it is more money than we earn, but we are (most likely) not professional footballers. The average wage in the UK is about £25k a year... Now to some of us on here that will be much more than we earn a year, whilst other people are going to see that as a percentage of their annual earnings.
I really don't want to patronize, but you receive what is deemed appropriate to your skill set. Now before we get onto ethics of how people are remunerated, I would like to add that my fiancee is a children's nurse and after a number of years doing so, earns less than the average annual salary, for treating kids with cancer (i'm seriously not sick enough to make this shit up just to make a point). I earn more than that, for a far less deserving job, but remain below the Higher tax threshold... Just in case people begin to think I'm bragging.
So effectively Pieneaar earns more than my annual salary every week. Yes, it's sickening. He's had an option to take near enough our annual household income as a wage for playing football, each and every week for the next x years and yet it has not been a satisfactory offer... What a greedy fuck, right?
But let's just base the figures on average wages a minute. So let's pretend young Stephen (I appreciate I'm in grave danger of the whole patronizing thing here) works at some The Office-style job, he's worked his way up and is on £25k plus the odd bonus but at 28 years old wants to start putting some money aside... Oops! hold on, his professional career's going end at max realistically in the next 7 years, he has a maximum five year contract offer so really let's base this on a guy in his late 50's... But he's also not just some young buck, no, no he's pretty high up the food chain, so average salary? Really?
And while he's been with his current employer and claims to like it there, he's on £25k p.a while he's just heard that some clown in the blue corner of Manchester is receiving FIVE TIMES that amount - for doing the same job!!! But they're a flash in the pan company who've achieved fuck all, so why worry about them... <>P>I mean the company Stephen's at came in the top four in their regional sales figures not so long ago, shame about the nationals, and had a decent product launch 2 years back but got pipped at the post by a rival multi-national... but at least they're normally in the top 50% of companies for that area.
However, Sandra from accounts let slip that one of his team members (albeit one that's been at the company longer) is on close to twice his wage. He knows the company are fairly frugal, but there's lots of other companies who are readily investing and prepared to pay more than the average wage for someone with his skillset.
It's your last big payday before you retire from the career that you've done since being a child. Do you stick with what is still probably an average salary overall for your job title, or do you go to a company that will give you a big golden hello plus double or triple your salary?
39 Posted 03/09/2010 at 03:14:24
I don't think the current squad has anyone who can really change the game as an individual. Not Mikel, not Pienaar and certainly not Timmy. Our success is down to teamwork. The Pienaar ? Baines combination has been our main source of supply last season.
So I really think it is not fair to compare individuals and determine who should get more here.
As for Pienaar holding out for more, it's understandable. He's not getting any younger, and it's a short career. It's a "how much am I worth to you now" question that only BK can decide.
40 Posted 03/09/2010 at 05:28:13
41 Posted 03/09/2010 at 06:28:17
42 Posted 03/09/2010 at 07:56:23
Boo him, why bother, he's too minted!!!
43 Posted 03/09/2010 at 08:48:52
It looks obvious that he will leave in the January window...Personally I think he should remeber where he was before we signed him ? Borussia Dortmund RESERVES.
The offer he has been made is a great one... so sign or Fuck Off, I say.
44 Posted 03/09/2010 at 08:55:50
I mean he has a new Ferrari to buy doesn't he?
Footballers (and their slimy agents) are amongst the greediest bar stewards ever. Yes, they have a skill... but no-one, and I mean absolutely no-one, can justify the scandalous amounts being paid to footballers today. Even the shittty benchwarmers are on more a week than I am on a year.
Greedy bar steward should takes his deal of £60k (if this is true) and live in the lap of luxury until he dies and then pass his remaining millions to his kids (if he accepts they are his and hasn't battered the mother or been pissed up when driving and killed them) Imagine that? A team standing by a player they could easily have sacked but now he wants mo' money
45 Posted 03/09/2010 at 07:10:16
Pienaar himself does not decide that what the going rate is for a footballer in the EPL is. Yes, the figures are obscene but comparing what we earn in comparison is a bit like holding third world country wages at $2 a day (roughly £40 a month... £480 p.a) up in comparison.
Operah Winfrey's got a reported personal worth of something like $2,400,000,000 (or 2.4 billion), Carlos Slim Helu overtook Bill Gates as the richest person, according to Forbes, with $53.5 billion. Sports star wise look at Tiger woods, baseball and basketball stars.
I'm not trying to justify anyone's earnings or the disparity of wealth... But people saying he's only worth this or that, have probably never dealt with that sort of money ? which for that matter I haven't either.
46 Posted 03/09/2010 at 09:31:56
47 Posted 03/09/2010 at 09:22:24
The debate about whether we should pay Pienaar x,y or z misses the point of can this business afford or absorb these extra costs, and judging by the lack of transfer activiety the answer seems to be no.
48 Posted 03/09/2010 at 09:33:12
The game is all about money guys as we know,and the more money any agent can get for their client the more they make!
It's like selling your house,normally you sell to the highest bidder.
No-one knows what he has been offered,but its obvious it isn't enough.
And Chris POST 24..
If Moyes hadn't have dug his heels in with Lescott we would have got £9million less for him than mc orginally offered.
I mean £24million for Lescott,what a fantastic piece of business!
49 Posted 03/09/2010 at 09:59:00
I am with you on this one but bloody hell, (#38) what a post! :)
I agree with everybody that footballers are on an obscene amount of money but to me, this is not the point here. The point is that looking around at the market, Pienaar believes he is worth more.
What should he do. Go back to the club and say, 'oh. actually, I have just realised that this 40k a week you pay me is an obscene amount of money so I want you to reduce my wage to about 5k a week, which is more than enough for anybody. In fact, you know what balls to this, I will play for Everton for free because I bleed blue blood and really owe the fans my life. Also, in addition I would really like to give back about 3 million 'cause it's just sat in the bank, I can't possibly spend it.'
Does that sound reasonable? It seems like some of you wouldn't be happy unless that was his offer.
50 Posted 03/09/2010 at 10:38:13
He's had a fucking good offer which Everton believe suits a player of his standard, he's a good player but he's not in the top tier of elite midfielders in the Premiership.
51 Posted 03/09/2010 at 10:53:45
Also, his partnership with Baines is our main attacking threat - if this is broken Moyes will have to pull a rabbit out of the hat, because I don't see the likes of Billy stepping up to replace him...
We will be worse off if he goes. When Lescott went, the money offered ensured we were not worse off. This time round, we won't be getting anything and will be considerably worse off...
52 Posted 03/09/2010 at 11:02:31
53 Posted 03/09/2010 at 10:39:13
54 Posted 03/09/2010 at 11:10:11
What is the good offer then?I believe when mc offered £15m for Lescott that was an amazing offer and so did everyone else!,but Moyes dug his heels in and got another £9m. if you get me!
Pienaar has been one of our better players,and he's a typical Moyes player in that he works his socks off for the team,that type of player is hard to find.
You can not blame the guy for getting the best deal he can.
Lets compare Cahill with him.would he worth the the same wage as he's on,assuming that would be at the top end of the clubs wage structure.
What do you reckon?
55 Posted 03/09/2010 at 11:03:01
It does matter what the player thinks he's worth, otherwise an agreement would have been reached. IF he signs now, and it's a big if, he's kissing goodbye to a lump sum that he'd receive from moving on next Summer.
I'd love an Audi R8, but I can't afford the £80,000 base price tag. It doesn't matter how much I stomp my feet and complain that it's an obscene amount of money for a car - that's what it costs. The fact a Bugatti Veyron costs ten times that of the R8 is irrelevant as I can only afford something around a quarter of the R8's value (which some may argue is a waste of money anyway).
Anyway, I'm going to stop writing about this now as I think I sound like a sanctimonious prick who's borderline revealing a bit too much about my personal life - too much whiskey and not enough sleep.
56 Posted 03/09/2010 at 11:57:19
57 Posted 03/09/2010 at 12:15:14
How highly does he rate himself Anthony? This is my point. You are assuming because Moyes said "He's been made a very good offer" that this must be true.
58 Posted 03/09/2010 at 12:28:20
59 Posted 03/09/2010 at 12:41:20
Further to that, he's entering the latter end of his career, with three years left at the top level in my opinion. He's worth nowhere near the ludicrous £15m bandied about even if he had five years left on a contract.
If he leaves for nothing, the only thing I'd be upset about is not receiving a fee for him. As far as losing him, it won't be that much of a concern for me. Tying up the Arteta contract was 1000% more important to Everton.
If he does sign, I'll still hold the exact same opinion of him - a slightly above average player who should count himself extremely lucky to be earning anything close to £50'000.
60 Posted 03/09/2010 at 12:59:03
Yes definately right, you either go that way or Moyes must feel that there is a greater than lets say 70% chance of Piennar not signing a pre contract agreement with Spurs in Dec and re-sgining with us (but how would that be possible why would we suddenly make an increaded offer then, that we have not been able to do so far). If he was to do that then he will be booed form pillar to post pre christmas which means we would have had him for say 3 another months...which makes the decison not to do what Chris Steele says above an absolute shocker!!! You know spurs will make him an offer just to piss us off!!!
61 Posted 03/09/2010 at 13:10:22
No, Anthony, I'm not saying Moyes is telling porkies, but it's obvious both parties do not agree.
I am simply stating that Pienaar has every right to try and get the best deal he can from the club, just like Moyes did with Man City for Lescott and there were many punters that believed the original offer was a very good one!
It's all about opinions but, until we hear what the club is offering, no-one can really say it's a very good offer. I think any footballer who is earning £5k a week is a very lucky one, but that's not the point is it?
62 Posted 03/09/2010 at 14:06:45
He cannot sign a pre-contract agreement WITH SPURS in January! It has to be a foreign team.
63 Posted 03/09/2010 at 14:30:51
64 Posted 03/09/2010 at 15:12:33
He can sign for us though !,
65 Posted 03/09/2010 at 15:20:35
With Yobo gone, some money might be put into Pienaar staying, but the whole thing seems a risky business. The club is relying on Moyes's skill of playing these transfer games.
Once again, why didn't we sell Yak?!?! Whether he is or is not still at his peak or fit doesn't matter to me, seeing as he is a third choice striker! We would have pocketed £6mil or so and then there would be no problems with Pienaar, Arteta..... Plus, if something does happen e.g another Pienaar wants more money, we can deal with that. Along the line that extra bit of money might just help to bring a Donovan.....
66 Posted 03/09/2010 at 19:09:34
Great player he is not, but a reasonably hard worker he is on occasion, but again not always hence the Villa goal.
It may be that we only offer him a 3 year deal and he wants 4 or 5!
67 Posted 03/09/2010 at 23:19:20
Much though I like Pienaar, thinks are now getting out of hand, we will be putting the club on the very edge of oblivion if we carry on like this, as our business acumen is zero.
We could have sold 3 players during the window, Yakubu, Yobo and Pienaar, plus other lesser lights, as Liverpool did, its called wheeling and dealing, I think, but we did fuck all as per usual, even if we had garnered only £10m from these three players we could have brought someone in (Donovan ?) and saved on 3 players wages.
Instead we find ourselves behind the 8 ball, Yakubu not playing, Yobo gone for nothing and Pienaar playing out time while his agent organises a free transfer for him, while we pay him his £20 - 30000/wk.
68 Posted 04/09/2010 at 01:54:32
69 Posted 04/09/2010 at 02:07:37
I understand what you're saying. In my line of work people don't get out of bed for 25k a year and I have mates that earn that sort of money in a month. Not me mind but I'm always looking for a transfer to someone that will pay me that, much like Pienaar.
70 Posted 04/09/2010 at 03:32:44
We still need a right back, winger (coleman looks exciting but too young) and a striker (since louis is always injured). If we gathered 6mil or so for Yak, a couple more for Yobo, we would be sitting on something at least like 9mil. With that money we can then set Pienaar straight, or BK or Moyes can put in a bit more for a Donovan, Remy......
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