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England Centre-Halves

Comments (87)

Interesting to see Jagielka and Lescott forming a pretty decent partnership for England. I didn't see the whole game but here's what I did see:

1. Not much long ball. Switzerland were not pressing much and there was always a full back or midfielder available, but still it proves the point that Jagielka can pass it short out of the back if its on and people available.

2. Partnership. They looked quite good together despite the gap. Not wanting to open up the "should Lescott return to Everton" debate, it's more about seeing how having a solid partnership can give an instant rapport even after 15 months not playing together.

3. Leadership. Capello was quoted as saying Jagielka was driving the back four for this game. I expect you might see him nudge out Ferdinand as "first choice" in the near future. Terry will be more difficult to displace I think.

I also think the midfield (Barry / Milner) and keeper should be blamed for a 25-yd goal when they're pressing.

Did anyone see the whole game? Anyone have a broader view of what happened and what we can learn from it at Everton?
Julian Wait, Austin, TX, USA     Posted 07/09/2010 at 22:14:27

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Sean McCarthy
1   Posted 08/09/2010 at 00:01:19

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Having been to last week's game at Wembley, I know what we can learn from Ingerland games. The average Ingerland fan doesn't have a fuckin clue about the game!!!!

Seeing grown men, arms outstretched, chanting the national anthem, kissing the badge on their shiny new, bought-for-the-occasion Ingerland shirt, even asking a Bulgarian how many stars are on their shirt ? like the one we got 50 years ago!!!

I'm in no rush to return; London and it's poncy home counties wankers are welcome to it all. I'll stick with the boys in green thanks very much.

Ciarán McGlone
2   Posted 08/09/2010 at 00:11:26

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I really couldn't give a shit what Jags does for England... For us, he hoofs it constantly whether players are on or not. And that's a problem...
Rob Esteva
3   Posted 08/09/2010 at 00:28:59

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Hi Julian - I working at the game tonight and it was interesting to hear Lescott say after the match that it was good to play alongside Jags, somebody whose game he knows well, and what a difference it made. I suspect it did for both of them.

I felt his control let him down a couple of times and he struggled with the conditions more than most, but they both did enough tonight.
Julian Wait
4   Posted 08/09/2010 at 00:43:50

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Well it looks like others agree with Jagielka's performance too:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/7988300/Phil-Jagielkas-Swiss-role-proves-his-England-future-is-bright.html

And as I suspected, not having English commentary, Lescott got the call because of their time at Everton together (obvious really ...):


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/7988238/Fabio-Capello-reveals-Everton-link-lay-behind-Joleon-Lescotts-England-recall.html

Rob Esteva
5   Posted 08/09/2010 at 00:47:59

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Just to clarify, my last sentence about miscontrolling the ball was regarding Lescott.
Chris Wilson
6   Posted 08/09/2010 at 01:01:56

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I wasn't all that interested in watching the match until I saw the central defense pairing and I needed to see it for my own eyes. Now if only we can get Baines in there - how weird would that be? Saw in the "Telegraph" article Jags getting some ribbing from Cashley Cole which would suggest that he's won the English National Team status quo over. Now we're going to have to endure rumors of Jags to Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, etc for years to come.
Brendan O'Doherty
7   Posted 08/09/2010 at 01:12:46

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Moments of the Evening:

1) Reina getting chipped by Messi for the 1st Argentinian goal

2) Reina slipping and landing on his rump for the 3rd Argentinian goal

Priceless!

Kevin Hudson
8   Posted 08/09/2010 at 00:52:34

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Sean I'm confused..

At no point in your irrational polemic did you answer any of the questions posed by Julian - in fact you didn't even acknowledge his article.

Instead you wilfully proceeded to vent hatred towards the English, despite stating you were at Wembley last week ? but will choose to "stick with the boys in green thanks very much."

I don't get that. What was the point of that unprovoked contribution? What purpose did you suppose it would serve?

Were you firing the starting pistol in order to herald the usual crowd of tangibly angst-ridden haters, who inexplicably use ToffeeWeb as free therapy, to spew their rabid bile of all things English, and to exercise their cliched one-way grudge towards this country?

If so,you've probably succeeded: Cue the borderline racists who can't wait to stick the knife in...

Judging by your name, nothing wrong with supporting the boys in green, but I suspect your passport says British, as does Kevin Kilbane's FYI.

Which renders your post bizarre...

But is it too much to ask that you take it elsewhere? Away from an Everton forum? Does Al Queda, or Sinn Fein, or Rossiyskaya Gazeta not have forums were you can slate the English to your hearts content?

And what does it say about ToffeeWeb where ONE country gets repeatedly singled out for invective on a regular basis? Why is that? Why is it tolerated?

Cue Alan Partridge: "This country..."

Julien:

Jags was most impressive tonight, I was tempted to submit an article alongside similar lines to your own, as you hit the nail on the head with your first point: Not once did he hoof it!!

My thoughts are that Capello is trying to do away with the atrocious tactics employed at the World Cup, and wants to create a possession-based team. I will be spitting feathers if Jags starts twatting it long on Saturday, and from my seat in the Lower Gwladys, he will be able to hear my wrath if he does!!

He CAN play it on the deck ? that's demonstrably proven under Capello. For me, the spotlight now turns to Moyes, who may be happy to play for percentage with the knock-downs... but pretty or technical it ain't...

Interesting topic.
Julian Wait
9   Posted 08/09/2010 at 02:17:51

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@Chris #5 - I had a similar thought myself re. Baines. He's no C Cole for sure, but can do a job if and when needed and better than the rest I think.

@Kevin #7 - Thanks for getting us back on topic :-) ... and you have to wonder if Jags is TOLD to play that way for Everton or whether he is forced into it by formation / pressure or, perhaps, just NOT told to NOT do it? Saturday, as you say, will be interesting indeed especially with Rooney likely to be pressing hard (if he even starts that is ... expect we might see Little Green Pea instead).

I do think that Jags plays better with a big guy like Lescott next to him, and a left footer to boot.

Will be watching Jags and the central defensive pairings with interest this season.
Elgin Joshua
10   Posted 08/09/2010 at 03:27:00

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Hhmmm. I thought Distin's a left footer. He looks awfully big too.
Julian Wait
11   Posted 08/09/2010 at 03:45:06

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@Elgin Joshua #10 - You're correct but he's getting on a bit ... and there's not a good plan B, unless a big left footed youngster is coming through ...
Vijay Nair
12   Posted 08/09/2010 at 05:10:36

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Is Duffy left or right footed?
Chris Wilson
13   Posted 08/09/2010 at 06:09:12

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Just out of curiosity, did Jags and Jolean appear cordial and friendly? I couldn't get a real good look and photos don't do it justice.
Anthony Hughes
14   Posted 08/09/2010 at 07:34:47

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Jagielka kept it short and simple, passes out wide to Johnson or into midfield to Barry or Shitty Arse. I think he's played well in both games and did what he's there to do. I still think Ferdinand and Terry will both come straight back into the team and that's just how it is with England, the perceived "best players" regardless. I for one though was proud to watch Jagielka out there for England.
Anthony Hughes
15   Posted 08/09/2010 at 07:43:41

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Sean, dont "the boys in green" stand with their arms out and sing and chant and support their team, or do they all just sit there in silence...? Yes, I thought so.
Tony I'Anson
16   Posted 08/09/2010 at 07:47:46

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If things continue like this, I may have to watch the England games:

Hibbert Jags Lescott Baines
Rodwell Arteta Gosling
Rooney

And roll on that 2nd gold star. Not since 1966..........
Jason Lam
17   Posted 08/09/2010 at 08:25:36

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The Daily Mail (I know..) is onto it too:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1310005/Joleon-Lescott-Phil-Jagielka-pass-chemistry-exam-flying-colours.html

Not sure what to make of it really. It was a great partnership (with Cars covering in front). Oh well..

I suppose we need to find a big loaf golem to do the heading (1st ball, 2nd ball type defending).
Mike Green
18   Posted 08/09/2010 at 08:29:30

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Tony - you forgot to mention...

Hibbert (Captain)

: )
Guy Rogers
19   Posted 08/09/2010 at 08:32:34

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i think Jags to Man Citeh next summer for £23M is more likley... good bit of business if you ask 'Arry... oh, wooops, sorry... Moyes doesn't wheel and deal!
Sam Morrison
20   Posted 08/09/2010 at 09:25:19

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Jags also gets a good write-up in the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/sep/07/five-things-england-switzerland-euro-2012-qualifer
Alan Kirwin
21   Posted 08/09/2010 at 09:28:50

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An inspired move by Capello. Don't forget that 2 seasons ago when Lescott & Jags ran our defence it was news if Everton conceded just one goal. Clean sheets everywhere. They work excellently together.

I am always interested when Everton players play well for England. Being English, isn't that normal? Clearly no pleasing some people on here.

I'd welcome back Lescott in a heartbeat, because he's excellent. But ain't gonna happen now as Mancini seems to have woken up to that fact.

And how many clubs must be kicking themselves over Adam Johnson? Could end up as buy of the decade.

I still harbour hopes that Uefa will relent on Arteta's position. If he takes UK nationality & hasn't played a full international I can't honestly see the problem. Rodwell & Baines would complete the picture.
Andrew Ellams
22   Posted 08/09/2010 at 10:08:37

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I know Tony Hibbert gets untold stick on this site, but does anybody know a better English full back when it comes to actually defending? Not the current occupier of the shirt, that's for sure.
David Hallwood
23   Posted 08/09/2010 at 10:14:48

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Kevin Hudson #8, if Jags returns to his old hoofball ways, could he be playing to orders?
Kevin Hudson
24   Posted 08/09/2010 at 10:29:56

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Who knows?

Sincerely hope not, but this is the theory kicking around between myself & Julian. How else to explain his frequent use of the long ball?!

One thing is clear: He never hoofed it ONCE last night ? go figure..
Kevin Gillen
25   Posted 08/09/2010 at 10:39:33

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Loved seeing Lescott and Jags in the centre of defence last night, they were excellent, especially Jags. No problem with Lescott ? he brought £18 million into the club and played well when he was on the pitch. He should come back to the club if he wants a game (as long as they pay half his wages), we need a good reserve left back. Proud of all the Liverpool connections on the pitch including Rooney and Gerrard.
Matthew Mackey
26   Posted 08/09/2010 at 11:13:47

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I thought that the Jags & Lescott centre back pairing last night was pretty good. They both played well, probably because of their previous time together on our defence. They know how each other works.

I for one am now going to start cranking DOWN the anger and bitterness towards Lescott. When I take the emotion out his transfer saga 12 months ago I can see that he is actually a good player. Give credit where credit is deserved.
I hope one or two others on here will now put the hatchet down and move on. (The double over Citeh last season was good enough payback!)
Adam Bennett
27   Posted 08/09/2010 at 11:35:09

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Jag?s ?hoofball? playing for Everton, compared to his ?passing? playing for England.

Maybe it might have something to do with the fact that when he plays for England, his team mates actually give him an option to pass to, instead of just standing there like a bunch of lemons!
Kevin Tully
28   Posted 08/09/2010 at 11:40:51

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Whatever you think of the national team, it is a step up in class. You can only become a better player if you are performing at the highest level.

The only thing that worries me is the tapping up, and comparing wages and bonuses.

Also, it may come to light Jags is shagging prozzies in the Adelphi.
Liu Weixian
29   Posted 08/09/2010 at 11:42:58

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Totally agree with Adam (#27), If a player can't pass the ball properly, he's never going to end up being a professional.

I don't care what Lescott said to Jags in the dressing room. As long as he didn't try to turn his head, I'm fine.
Anthony Hughes
30   Posted 08/09/2010 at 11:43:31

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Hibbert is a solid defender at club level but an international class fullback needs to be able to pass the ball to a team mate and bomb up and down the line and give the team an attacking option; Hibbo just isn't up to that.

Got to agree with the Glen Johnson assessment, looks good going forward but as a defender he's crap. England are very light for cover in this area, who's plays right back for the U-21s?
Danny Burke
31   Posted 08/09/2010 at 11:52:07

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I'm glad Jags has been playing well for England and becoming the "driver" of the back four. He's a top defender and could claim a regular spot, especially with Rio sicknote making Louis look like Superman. This can only make him a better player, and maybe he can tap up Rooney when his contract expires in 18 months!
Jamie Tulacz
32   Posted 08/09/2010 at 13:30:01

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Agree with the favourable reviews the Jag received for his couple of England performances. Thought he looked very assured and passed the ball nicely out of defence.

Have to agree as well with Adam (#27) that he passed more out of defence as he had more options to do so. Don't believe for a minute that Moyes asks them to play hoofball ? I remember at least once him complaining about this in fact.
Tony J Williams
33   Posted 08/09/2010 at 13:30:36

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Amen, Adam.

It's piss easy to do the 10 yard pass when the fella in front actually shows for the ball instead of standing on the defenders/midfielders shoulder.

Guarranteed that Jags will be hoofing it when we play a better team that actually closes down and marks the opposing team's midfielders.

If Jag's is told to hoof it by Moyes, how come we have started playing so much more football on the ground when the ball is actually passed to our midfield?

It's just all bollocks anyway, apart from Martin O'Neil's, boot it to Carew, no manager will ever instruct their players to just "hoof it", it the limitations of the team that cause this, not the manager's instructions and it never will be.
Brendan O'Doherty
34   Posted 08/09/2010 at 14:26:39

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Alan (#21)

"I still harbour hopes that Uefa will relent on Arteta's position. If he takes UK nationality & hasn't played a full international I can't honestly see the problem. "

The problem is that he is a Spaniard, Alan. Last night he was a TV studio guest watching the Argentina v Spain game. His proper country, which he supports.

Why you would want him getting his head turned by Stevie G La and his cronies is beyond me.
Sean McCarthy
35   Posted 08/09/2010 at 14:28:03

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Re #8......my 'rant' may have been off point but it wasn't racist as you infer!! I've nothing against the England team and like to see them do well.

My point was aimed at those 'Ingerland fans' who appear not to know the first thing about the game of football. The chanting of the anthem is done in a quasi racist mode that undoubtably has right wing overtones as does their crude version of rule Britannia.

Don't get me wrong Ireland has it's fair share of moronic fans too but I found the whole wembley England experiance too unsavoury to want to repeat anytime soon.
Oh, and as it happens, my passport is Irish, not British As Ringo might say... peace and love. Peace an love

Chris Fisher
36   Posted 08/09/2010 at 15:12:58

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If Jags 'hoofs' the ball all the time when he's playing for us but didn't do it while he was playing for England, what does that tell you?
Brendan O'Doherty
37   Posted 08/09/2010 at 15:08:10

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Sean (#35) "Don't get me wrong, Ireland has its fair share of moronic fans too."

Would you care to elaborate on that Sean ?

Kevin (#8) "but I suspect your passport says British, as does Kevin Kilbane's FYI."

Tony Blair's 3 kids all have Irish passports ? it means absolutely nothing.
Elgin Joshua
38   Posted 08/09/2010 at 15:26:32

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Been thinking a bit on Lescott. I reckon if he apologizes on his actions and we pay much less then what Citeh did, I guess I'd welcome him back. Not too keen on Distin. Always think he looked clumsy on the ball.

Guess I'm just dreaming though as fairy tales never come through. Not for Everton though.
Callum Wilson
39   Posted 08/09/2010 at 15:30:01

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Sean (#1 & #35) ? I don't think anybody really cares if you're not going to watch another game. The original article asked questions. you answered none of them ? that is the point other people were making.

The anthem may have right wing overtones but, guess what, it's the anthem and like most countries anthems, it's OLD! Just because you can't understand the other anthems of other countries, do you think they are any less nationalistic? No, why wouldn't they be? All anthems are supposed to be a celebration of a country. Suppose we could change it to "Ah well, England's alrite... hope we don't offend anyone."?

I accept that fans on here come from all parts of the globe but the amount of time spent by people having a go at England and constantly writing INGLERLAND or ENGERLAND is after a while incredibly boring. Why don't we have an article on Ireland and how one of our irish players does, then all the England fans could run straight on it and start talking bollocks that doesn't relate to the article and provides a total of nil answers, instead how all the Irish fans are nobheads *not what i believe* ? but you get the point.

I watch any of the home countries play and used to wish them well but the pure amount of Irish, Welsh and Scottish fans acting like they have won the World Cup when England got knocked out of it or loose a game has pissed me off no end.

That out the way, good to hear Jags had a good game, I couldnt see it last night. As others have stated, I presume that once Ferdinand and Terry are fit, they will both play ahead of Jags and Lescott. I am curious as to how Sky ended up being the ones who had the rights to the game i thought all England internationals had to be on terrestrial TV ? ie BBC or ITV?

Colin Taylor
40   Posted 08/09/2010 at 15:42:27

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Was anyone watching that kopite gobshite Redknapp before the match when he said he was worried about the two centre halfs because they had never played together? I bet I was not the only Evertonian screaming at the telly, calling Redknapp a wanker, shouting "You not heard of Everton, you wanker!!!"
Julian Wait
41   Posted 08/09/2010 at 16:08:00

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@Brendan #36 - I think Sean's point was that there's morons everywhere in equal abundance. No one nation, region, ethnicity, religion, race .. or football team ... has the monopoly on that ...

... to that point, for example, can anyone say they've never been embarrassed by some Everton fans' behaviour, ever?
Kevin Hudson
42   Posted 08/09/2010 at 15:52:43

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"The chanting of the anthem is done in a quasi racist mode that undoubtably has right wing overtones."

Sure - it might do: To 0.1% of the English population; but the fact that you're even THINKING that suggests lazy prejudice on your behalf, instead.
Danny Burke
43   Posted 08/09/2010 at 17:02:36

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Slightly off topic but going with all the other home nations seeming hatred for the English. It seems Scotland have had to apologise for some of their "fans" booing the national anthem of Liechtenstein last night. It just so happens that their national anthem is set to the music of our English national anthem, coincidence, I think not.
Sean McCarthy
44   Posted 08/09/2010 at 18:16:05

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Julian - put 'everton at preston' on YouTube and I defy any evertonian not to be embarrassed by our own so called fans
Brendan O'Doherty
45   Posted 08/09/2010 at 19:16:05

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Julian (#41)

"I think Sean's point was that there's morons everywhere in equal abundance."

That's why I asked him to elaborate. It may be true with regard to the club scene as you mention, but it's certainly not true when it comes to international teams.

I don't remember any of our fans ripping up seats and throwing them at children in the stand below, resulting in the match being abandoned.

I don't remember our fans ever starting trouble when abroad supporting their country, nor goading opposition fans into a fight.

That's why I asked for an explanation of Sean's comment that "Ireland has its fair share of moronic fans too", because I don't believe it to be true.
David Hallwood
46   Posted 08/09/2010 at 20:21:10

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Kevin Tully (#28) posted:

"Also, it may come to light Jags is shagging prozzies in the Adelphi."

That is a despicable thing to post, and comments like these I?ve sadly come to accept as part of TW culture. Surely Jags would use the Malmaison or Hope Street?

Stephen Kenny
47   Posted 08/09/2010 at 21:09:25

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Colin .40

I bet there were literally thousands shouting that at him. Before he even spoke.
Jon Cox
48   Posted 08/09/2010 at 21:03:52

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Calm down, calm down.

We as English have been brainwashed, into thinking that anything that we think that is "English" is that, we are racists. This is of course "CRAP" We are of course led to believe that if we love our country then we are racist and don't love our country in terms of football.

Don't forget, one man's racist is another man's patriotic. I for example want Stevie G to play the best he can when playing for England. When playing for England, I don't give a hoot if he plays for Yeovil.

Sean (No 1), By the way who is No 2?

I and many guys on this website will always support Ireland (north or south) in international games. What is it about us English you hate so much?

For me, it's a classic example of being brainwashed by the media. Don't forget that when we qualify for a World Cup that everything you read about us English winning the world cup, it's all from the newspapers and not from us English.

Please my fellow Evertonians don't think that we as English think that we don't want you as the Irish Scotts or Welsh want you to do badly in any inter cup competition.

I as an Englishman, I always want you, as a UK brethren, to do well when I'm watching any country to do with the British Isles.

If I'm racist then slag me off.

ps: Put your money on Lescott playing for Everton in the near future....

COYB
Brendan O'Doherty
49   Posted 08/09/2010 at 22:33:06

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John (#48),

Sean IS English. That's why we went to the game at Wembley. You are getting your wires crossed.

Callum Wilson
50   Posted 08/09/2010 at 22:46:53

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#45 Brendan O'Doherty:

Funny I dont remember many of your fans going abroad for major tournaments so the chances are a lot less of your fans actually being somewhere else boozing all day then making tits out of themselves. England aren't the first country or last to make trouble when playing in tournaments in other countries or the only country to have hooligans at games domestically, whatever the press would like us all to believe.

I can deal with fair points but the English gutter press for some reason love to stick the knife in and twist it when it comes to hooligans in the country or abroad, blaming the English before anything. The gutter rag Sun is a prime example of that when Hillsborough happened hillsborough disaster sun Pictures, Images and Photos

Sean McCarthy
51   Posted 09/09/2010 at 11:36:22

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Brendan as I was born and raised near Thurles in Co Tipperary. I think I can make a fair claim to be Irish and not English thanks!!
David Price
52   Posted 09/09/2010 at 13:11:40

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I thought Redknapp was a complete joke on Tuesday evening for the game. "I'll take a draw now", before the kick off. Thought Richard Keys was going to throw him over the edge for a minute.

Full time, 3-1 win, did Redknapp looked pleased? Did he shite. Any praise he heaped on a fine display might mean cousin Frank shouldn't get in the team again. At last, sanity. Why does this non achieving pratt get a job such as this?

I thought Jags was excellent and enjoyed Gerrard's captain performance. I think we did bid £6m for Adam Johnson a couple of years ago but the lad wanted to stay at Boro to try and keep them up. Outstanding player now.

A City mate texted me, gloating over the number of their players in the side... funny how the only born and bred Manc in there is Jags!

Brendan O'Doherty
53   Posted 09/09/2010 at 13:22:05

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Callum Wilson (#50):

"Funny, I don't remember many of your fans going abroad for major tournaments so the chances are a lot less of your fans actually being somewhere else boozing all day then making tits out of themselves."

Now that is what is called a very cheap shot.

When 'England' fans ripped Landsdowne Road apart, it wasn't at a major tournament, was it? That is irrelevant, and a pretty poor excuse.

And when our fans did go abroad for major tournaments, like fans of most other countries except England they didn't make tits out of themselves.

Sean (#51): Apologies ? why are you going to watch England at Wembley then? You've certainly opened up a can of worms with your rant!
Chris Leyland
54   Posted 09/09/2010 at 13:42:02

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Brendan

I am English but I have been to watch Ireland twice at Craven Cottage in the past few years and believe me there were plenty of tits at the games. For example. Ireland v Nigeria the night before the FA Cup Final. The Yak and big Vic were in the crowd near me and came in for some unsavory stick from the pissed up Oirish morons near them (the equivalent of Engerland fans).
Brendan O'Doherty
55   Posted 09/09/2010 at 14:46:54

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Chris

True, they are not all angels.

But your use of the term "the pussed up oirish morons" rather gives the game away.

Chris Leyland
56   Posted 09/09/2010 at 15:28:22

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What game is that Brendan? As someone who is married to an Irish woman and who has Irish grand parents I have always considered Ireland to be my second team on the international stage. Hence why I went to watch them!

My point was that all teams have an element of idiot supporters, the Irish included.
Sean McCarthy
57   Posted 09/09/2010 at 17:16:38

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I was at Wembley as my 11-year-old son is an England fan and I'd promised him a trip to Wembley. Can't see me taking him to watch Everton play there anytime soon!! Am I forgiven??

As for Tipperary ...... Tá muid an Craobh!

Ciarán McGlone
58   Posted 09/09/2010 at 17:50:15

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Some game on Sunday Sean..that last goal was a piece of art...Great game that put the cats in their place... and such a young side as well..

Can I suggest the big book of English history for those who are genuinely scratching their heads over why the Irish like to see the English fail at football... I hear they do a version with big pictures.
Brendan O'Doherty
59   Posted 09/09/2010 at 17:53:26

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Chris ? The game I refer to took place on 15 February 1995.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcdnzeoBJT4

Sean - Forgiven you are! Great win last Sunday BTW, the party is still going on in the Premier County I believe!
Kevin Hudson
60   Posted 09/09/2010 at 18:59:07

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Talking of cheap shots, Brendan, thanks for passing off Combat 18 as "English fans," as they are to us what Westlife are to musical taste...
Brendan O'Doherty
61   Posted 09/09/2010 at 19:04:38

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No cheap shot there, Kevin. If you have an issue with C18 masquerading as England fans, that is an internal problem for you England fans. It's nothing to do with me or anyone else who is not an England fan.

And I won't be rising to the bait with your Westlife comment... I happen to agree with it.
Kevin Hudson
62   Posted 09/09/2010 at 19:46:11

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YES, IT IS a cheap shot, Brendan, as anyone with any decency would have an issue with C18 passing themselves off as (being representative of) England fans; less seriously, but none the less strenuously, I do also take issue with foreigners generalising all England fans in this manner.

The idiots lobbing plastic chairs in Marseille for example, along with (admittedly) numerous other examples, have tarnished all English fans, seemingly forever.

Hence the absolutely moronic submission (35) from Sean, that suggested that even the singing of our own national anthem has a "quasi racist mode that undoubtably has right-wing undertones." Which of course is akin to saying that the lunatic pastor in America, currently burning copies of the Koran, is representative of the entire Christian community!

Judging by your response to Chris's Alan Partridge-esque comment (54), you don't like lazy stereotypes intuited about your own country either ? yet, as evidence of English idiocy, you provide us with a link to view Combat 18's "finest hour."

With no mention (of course) of how those atrocious events went down this side of the Irish Sea. Did you mention the national condemnation of "our boys?" Did you mention how many arrests were made? Did you mention how their organisation was aggressively pursued by our own Police force?

Obviously not, as that wouldn't support such a one-dimensional argument that even my cat could unpick.
Brendan O'Doherty
63   Posted 09/09/2010 at 20:22:26

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Embarrassing for you watching that again, was it Kevin? Well so it should be.

Much as you and most England fans (understandably) distance yourself from them, they were at the game as 'England fans.' Whether or not they are real England fans or not is an entirely different matter. From your post it seems that the authorities did all they could to stamp this sort of thing out, and of course should be applauded for that.

But you seem to think that I know all about this:

"With no mention (of course ) of how those atrocious events went down this side of the Irish Sea. Did you mention the national condemnation of "our boys?" Did you mention how many arrests were made? Did you mention how their organisation was aggressively pursued by our own Police force?"

Kevin, they were "your boys" as you put it. It was YOUR police force who pursued them. It is YOUR side of the Irish Sea. It was YOUR national condemnation. Why you expect ME to highlight this, when I see it from the OTHER side of the Irish Sea, I do not know. It is/was YOUR problem.

Please do not blame me for bringing up this dark moment in 'England supporting' history. I mentioned it to contrast the track record of behaviour of England supporters with that of other countries.

And it is not good.

In your post to Sean (#8) you said:

"And what does it say about ToffeeWeb where ONE country gets repeatedly singled out for invective on a regular basis? Why is that? Why is it tolerated?"

If you think about it hard enough, the answer is staring you in the face.

If you are still stuck, I suggest you take on board Ciarán's advice in post #58:

"Can I suggest the big book of English history for those who are genuinely scratching their heads over why the Irish like to see the English fail at football... I hear they do a version with big pictures."
Kevin Hudson
64   Posted 09/09/2010 at 20:49:28

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Oh, and regarding the "big book of English history," I think we get it Ciaran... Chip on the shoulder.

Yet the English, as a whole, genuinely have an affection for the other home nations AND Ireland, despite them collectively rooting for us to fail at football.

Even though none of our players had any impact or involvement in English history, as related to these countries, this crucial fact is lost to the fanatical complusion of some Celts to exercise their bigotry of all things English.

Which essentially shows a pathetic, entrenched bitterness, coupled with a complete lack of maturity on their part.

And, unfortunate as this may be, this tacitly provides a cardboard stereotype of people like you, Brendan & Sean to the wearied English, who find this animosity banal.
Kevin Hudson
65   Posted 09/09/2010 at 21:30:54

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Embarrassing, Brendan ? not at all, as these dickheads have about as much to do with me as with your alignment to objective thought.

Nobody here is defending hooliganism, or whitewashing the tawdry acts of this reviled minority.

But since it's clear you're holding fast to the "tar them all with the same brush," argument, it's obvious I'm wasting my time with such an ineffectual attempt to debate with me.
Brendan O'Doherty
66   Posted 09/09/2010 at 21:55:58

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"It's clear you're holding fast to the "tar them all with the same brush," argument"

Nothing could be further from the truth, Kevin. Nowhere did I say, or even imply, that.

You say you are not embarrassed by the actions of these people. Well that is a very different story from the one which was portrayed by most English people and especially the football authorities after it occurred. The reaction was one of complete embarrassment, followed by a determination to show the world that those involved were not typical of the average England supporter. And to a large extent they have done that.

Accusing me of having no "alignment to objective thought" is stooping very low. Take your blinkers off and stop seeing everything in black and white.
Kevin Hudson
67   Posted 09/09/2010 at 22:36:30

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It really doesn't wash when you counter-accuse me of the charge levelled at you, Brendan.

It goes without saying I was apalled at the scenes in '95, but I would have been embarrassed if my country's response hadn't been as castigating as it was; of which I drew your attention towards!

As almost reluctantly, you allude to it ? by abandoning selectivity, you demonstrate balance (66-Hurrah!) If you had only added those thoughts to post 45, we wouldn't have had this discussion!

As to your claim of innocence regarding what you didn't imply:

"I don't remember any of our fans ripping up seats and throwing them at children in the stand below."

"When England fans ripped Landsdowne Road apart."

"And when our fans did go abroad for major tournaments,like fans of most countries,except England, they did not make tits of themselves."

"I mentioned it to contrast the track record of the behaviour of England fans compared to those of other countries."

"And it is not good."

I have no argument with any of these statements, except maybe the last one. Huge strides have been taken to shift the world view of what constitues an England fan, and our conduct has latterly improved considerably, thanks to banning orders.

So you can see how your comments above can be taken as a jaundiced sweep of the English fan abroad, surely?

I was in South Africa this summer, I went to Germany in '06. I'll be at Poland/Ukraine in 2012. As if to compensate for the behaviour of our Cro-Magnon predecessors, if anything we are extra compliant in our demeanour these days..!
Brendan O'Doherty
68   Posted 09/09/2010 at 23:57:02

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"As to your claim of innocence regarding what you didn't imply:"....

Then you throw my quotes back at me.

Where, any of these quotes, did I imply that all England fans should be tarred with the same brush ?

The use of the term 'England fans'?

Oh I see. So you think I am accusing you of condoning this behaviour, because you are also an England fan?

Paranoia in the extreme. And utter bollocks as well.
Kevin Hudson
69   Posted 10/09/2010 at 00:25:50

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I'll try to be succinct:

Brendan,you re-joined the England discussion at post 45,for the dual intention of defending Irish support,(fine,albeit hyper-sensitive) but then twisted the knife into the English supporters on the thread,by VISUALLY illustrating a completely unrepresentative view of said follower.

Which I challenged by reminding you that 99% of us are fairly genteel.

But then you already knew that,and only acknowleged as such AFTER it was pointed out to you.

So the paranoia you speak of is unassailably at your end.
Brendan O'Doherty
70   Posted 10/09/2010 at 02:05:48

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"Which I challenged by reminding you that 99% of us are fairly genteel."

Where ? Oh, you (fairly) genteel little angels (99% of you).

NO WONDER you took umbrage at my reminder of your not-too-distant past. (99% of England fans are "fairly genteel". Must remember that).

"So the paranoia you speak of is unassailably at your end."

Apparently because I only acknowledged this gentility AFTER it was pointed out to me. So that makes me paranoid. Mmmm.........(Note to self: Failure to acknowledge something until it is pointed out to you means you are paranoid about it; remember that as well).

"Nobody here is defending hooliganism, or whitewashing the tawdry acts of this reviled minority."

Now THAT sounds like paranoia to me. Only in your imagination did I accuse you of either of those things.

"you re-joined the England discussion for the dual intention of defending Irish support, (fine, albeit hyper-sensitive) but then twisted the knife into the English supporters on the thread"

Intention number 1 ? correct ( hyper-sensitive? your opinion. A bit rich coming from someone who accuses me of "tarring all England supporters with the same brush.")

Intention number 2 (if there is one) ? "twisted the knife into the English supporters on the thread."

You obviously have taken exception to my highlighting of the 1995 game. But no-one else has. So your "twisting the knife" allegation has no substance whatsoever, other than the fact that you perceive it to be that way.

You still believe, don't you, that I was trying to 'tar all England fans with the same brush' as you describe it. This despite the fact that you have not answered my question above: "Where, in any of these quotes, did I imply that all England fans should be tarred with the same brush ?"

You believe that I have tarred all England fans with the same brush because that is what you WANT to believe. Even though you know that I haven't.

It is a FACT that England fans rioted at Lansdowne Road in 1995 and tore up the stadium, whether you like it or not. That it subsequently became apparent that most of the rioters were affiliated to a quasi-political group doesn't change anything. Most England fans have since distanced themselves from these people, and understandably so. But you cannot airbrush this regrettable episode out of history, nor slate me nor accuse me of being selective for mentioning it. It happened in my country.

The history of the England fan's behaviour abroad did not begin in 2002 Kevin, much as you wish it had. The lessons have been learnt and yes there has been an improvement in recent years. But in this discussion I was contrasting track records, so you have to take the history on board as well, much to your chagrin. Whether you like it or not, it is the outsider's PERCEPTION of England fans that counts. Real England fans or otherwise, that is the reality you need to face up to, not your own internal selective post-2002 version.

Quite simply, you have read far too much into my comments in post #45, and accused me of "twisting the knife," amongst other things, such as having no "decency" for posting the link, and having no "alignment to objective thought."

I'm not going to take offence at those jibes because I can see that they were made in support of your argument. But I do think that you are being over-sensitive to my reference to the 1995 match.

I know that it's horrible to be reminded of the past (believe me ? I know,being Irish), but you have to face up to it.
Kevin Hudson
71   Posted 10/09/2010 at 14:20:42

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I knew you'd hang yourself eventually...

"Whether you like it or not, it is the outsiders' PERCEPTION of England fans that counts."

Alrighty then!!

There's your argument completely undone!!

So recent evidence to the contrary,indicating a major shift,isn't going to alter your entrenched view,then?

Fine...

There's another word to describe an unflattering & inaccurate perception,that hapens to be 20 years out of date: It's called prejudice...

And you ARE paranoid, as when one of your own countrymen suggested that Ireland may harbour one or two undesirables themselves..

Cue Brendan " No we do not - how dare you!!"

"Lawless Ireland," suggests otherwise. In fact it suggests that hooliganism is on the rise in Ireland,whereas in England it's declining. (TV3)

The Guardian 14 October 2007; Cocaine usage a major factor in the rise in popularity of Irish hooliganism.

The Garda Review itself (no less) recently published a dossier on Irish football thuggery!

So you can see what I mean by selectivity?

Such as your case for the prosecution: 200 wankers kicking off at Landsdowne Road ? 15 years ago.

During a discussion,obstensibly about Phil Jagielka,that had already seen the anti-English brigade jump on to have a pop,you decide to be provocative ? simply because you knew you could. By way of example, presenting us with the most fringe of elements...

And then feign suprise when it doesn't go down too well! Or is deemed actually mis-representative of contemporary times.

But maybe I'm being unfair on you. After all,how else COULD you know about this on a (that word again) FACTUAL level,as you've had no reason to visit any of the last 4 major tournaments,have you? Because your national pub team just isn't up to it,not since all the English players stopped playing for you!!

(34 members of the 66 squad players: 1990/1994/2002? your finest hours ? drum roll... English!)

Which brings me back full circle: The one-way grudge, the little brother complex, the gargantuan Celtic chip on the shoulder, which betrays a visceral,envious hatred of the English, yet inexplicably doesn't stop these foreigners from supporting English football teams.

Which of course makes Ciaran's "Big book of English history," nonsense even more absurd, as by comparison, imagine someone from Coventry growing up embittered by the impact the Blitz had on his community, yet he supports Hertha Berlin!!!

And visits a Hertha fansite to frequently slag of the German people!!

Now that's what a comparative analogy looks like, Brendan...
Kevin Hudson
72   Posted 10/09/2010 at 18:29:13

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Note to the editor:

You would be well within your rights to tell me to get a life here,but you've slightly re-interpreted something I wrote!

In the final paragraph of post 67, I put: "If anything,we are extra complaisant in our demeanour these days...!"

Which you've altered to "extra compliant.."

Which is fine,but I did mean complaisant! It wasn't a typo!

From memory, I think it means cheerful & obliging, which I guess isn't too far removed from "compliant,"after all.

One of those old French terms that crossed over into English,and is probably not used by anyone under the age of 80 these days!!

Pedantic, moi?!
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
73   Posted 10/09/2010 at 19:37:00

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I'm sorry, Kevin, I do apologise... well spotted. I was thinking more along the lines of "complacent" but somehow got "compliant" instead, either from the context or accidentally from the Safari spell-checker (always blame someone else if possible!!!).

So "complaisant" it is (meaning: showing a desire to comply or oblige; polite) rather than "complacent" (meaning: 1. pleased or satisfied, esp extremely self-satisfied
2. an obsolete word for complaisant) or "compliant" (meaning: complying, obliging, or yielding)...

They seem kinda samey but subtly different. No wonder English has way more words than any other language! Too many of them mean almost the same thing. I blame the French!!!
Brendan O'Doherty
74   Posted 10/09/2010 at 20:18:19

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OK it seems you are not going to get off my back, and are going to continue pointing the accusing finger at me despite my attempts at explaining my comments. You are now resorting to inventing things that I am supposed to have said to support your accusations.

E.G. "when one of your own countrymen suggested that Ireland may harbour one or two undesirables themselves.. "
"Cue Brendan " No we do not - how dare you!!""

When THE TRUTH of what I actually said was "True, they are not all angels."(#55)

How does "No we do not - how dare you!! metamorphose into "True, they are not all angels."?

When the person writing the comment wants to completely misrepresent your views, that's when.

You don't accept my comment "Whether you like it or not, it is the outsiders' PERCEPTION of England fans that counts." ? Fine. YOU go on "hanging yourself" as you put it, and don't worry about what the rest of the world thinks. After all, it's only what England fans think about themselves that is important isn't it? Fuck what anyone else thinks! What does it matter?

You say "And then feign suprise when it doesn't go down too well!"

WHAT???? SURPRISE??? Where? To whom? Pure figment of your ever-stretching imagination.

Then it's time you put the boot in again:

After all,how else COULD you know about this on a (that word again) FACTUAL level,as you've had no reason to visit any of the last 4 major tournaments,have you?

Nasty, nasty. An evil dig at another smaller country's failure to qualify for as many tournaments as Good Old England, with their vastly superior resources. THE cheapest of cheap shots.

Apart from

"Because your national pub team just isn't up to it".

Now that is the lowest of the low; Ireland are the equivalent of a pub team. God, you know how to insult when you really want to, you bastard. You've gone too far this time,despite me trying to be reasonable when I posted above that I would overlook the jibes you've already thrown at me.

YOU accuse ME of having an "entrenched view"!
YOU accuse ME of being "prejudiced."
YOU accuse ME of being "embittered."

I have accused you of nothing worse than being paranoid on this thread, yet you can't stop hurling insults at me. But I now have to say that it's time you took a look in the mirror.

And,worst of all -
You accuse me (and others -see above) of having "a one-way grudge,the little brother complex,the gargantuan Celtic chip on the shoulder,which betrays a visceral,envious hatred of the English,yet inexplicably doesn't stop these foreigners from supporting English football teams."

That comment is nothing short of a fucking disgrace, and can only come from someone who has a superiority complex. I have many English friends; I lived in England, including on Merseyside, for many years. I moved to Merseyside so that I could watch my beloved football club. I don't hate anyone, and I think I can safely speak for the other non-English people that you addressed that comment to when I say that they do not hate English people either. You cannot grasp the simple concept that it is possible to not want the football team of your former imperial master to do well, without hating their people. And that it is possible to support a football club from that country, because we are NOT prejudiced.

Blinkered, all or nothing, black and white, that's the way you see it. They bear a "visceral hatred" of our people because they don't want our national football team to succeed, and yet they "inexplicably" support one of our football clubs!

Absolute fucking garbage of the highest order.You are clearly a very bitter and twisted man. You have no idea about history or empires, and when suggested by someone that you should refer to it, you dismiss the suggestion out of hand with you 'Blitz' comment. Your country was not invaded; you have a history of invading other countries, hence the 'resentment', not "visceral hatred". It's quite simple. And it's a fact you refuse to face up to.

Until you do you will never understand what the rest of the world thinks of you.

But then again you don't care anyway.

I am clearly dealing with a bigot here, so I won't be saying anything further on the matter.



Kevin Hudson
75   Posted 10/09/2010 at 21:31:29

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Let's be absolutely clear how this went down, Brendan. I picked up something you said.That's been established, so let us in fact see if we can assign motive to your written word on this thread.

Having discussed Spain early on, you re-enter the thread at 45. Here, and in 53-59-61-63-66-70, you systematically target England fans. SEVEN separate posts essentially saying the same thing: that we have hooligans.

Nobody disputed that, but some of us pointed out that to draw parallels to right-wing militia groups isn't actually representative of what we are; and that maybe you might have cast us in an unfair light.

I objected to it, because it happens all too frequently on this site. Just as I did on the "Michael Arterton," mailbag when Gavin Ramejkis was talking about jackboots & Daily Mail readers.

I am sick of Irish people taking every opportunity to express negativity towards my country.

Do you seriously think that no Englishman could be offended by this, and would have a pop back?

When you pitched up, it was for two reasons: (1) Claim (inaccurately) that Ireland has no hooligans: And (2) To have a pop at English fans, highlighting Combat 18's desecration of Landsowne Road.

It is a safe bet that you KNEW the link wouldn't go unnoticed.

It's a safe bet you knew it would provoke those who KNOW FOR A FACT that the behaviour of our country's fans has noticeably improved.

It is a safe bet that you would have known that the proper English fans who are proud to see the reputation of their country improve, due in part, to their contrition, diplomacy & friendship, count for nothing when people like you present ONE perverted example of English footballing conduct.

It's absolutely clear that anyone can easily deduct your intent at 45 onwards was to be rude, disrespectful, controversial & argumentative.

Here's some very quick points:

It was in post 45 that you dismissed out of hand the idea that Ireland has hooligans "I don't believe it," you said. In 55, you partially retracted this: "Not all angels."

Onto perception then. We DO worry what the rest of the world thinks. That's why we've been making amends,silly!

Resentment: Historically ? I get it. But this is the present, so why still hostile, is all?

Military occupation is, granted, very different to months of aerial bombardment, but the Coventry analogy still holds some water, I think.

Finally, to the moment your head popped off: the name-calling.

Me using the pub team reference is a bit of footballing banter, for God's sake. I've heard far worse from Mancs & Kopites about our beloved Everton. The entire 90s we were referred to as an alehouse team, and you know what? We played like one ? IT WAS A JOKE!!

I'm not going to deny I poked you in the ribs a couple of times, but your explosive reaction is extraordinary.

Nowhere did I swear at you, get personal, or call you names.

But in the preceding thread, you proceed to label me bitter, evil, cheap, low, twisted, nasty, (twice) a bastard, a bigot, that I'm talking fucking garbage, and that I'm a fucking disgrace ? which is pretty strong, considering you've never met me.

And you're passing yourself off as the wounded party!

Having assigned all of those words to me, IN ONE RANT, that level of verbal attack speaks volumes about your attitude. Sorry, but I thought that was an embarrassing tirade... I think you feel you've lost the argument, or you've been exaggeratedly enraged by it, and totally lost all perspective. You've took it way too personally, and hence way too far with that last submission.

Cheers.
Kevin Hudson
76   Posted 10/09/2010 at 23:49:03

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ps: Michael ? thanks for the earlier response. I think the word possibly fell out of everyday verbal usage due to complacency... (!)
Brendan O'Doherty
77   Posted 11/09/2010 at 01:16:31

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"ENGLISH FOR THE ENGLISH"

Today's lesson : ADJECTIVES

DEFINITION : 'The word that qualifies nouns, a word that expresses an attribute of something'.

Ready to begin ? OK. Let's start by showing some examples.

Example 1) "An evil dig."

Now in this example, the adjective is "evil", and the noun is "dig". Right ?

So by our definition above, the adjective "evil" is describing the noun "dig". Nothing else. Just the dig.

(N.B. It is important to note at this early stage that the adjective ONLY describes the noun "dig". Nothing else. And especially not the person that wrote it. That would just be plain silly!)

Example 2) "cheap shots."

Here we have a plural. But again, the adjective qualifies the noun. The "shots" are "cheap". Nothing else is "cheap." Only the noun to which the adjective relates.

(Again, it's important to note that the adjective - "cheap" in this example - does not describe the person writing it. Just the noun.)

Right. Ready for another example ?

Example 3) nasty nasty.

Why are you repeating yourself ? you ask.

Well, because an adjective repeated in this way indicates what the writer felt about the preceding comment. If someone said, for example, " you've had no reason to visit any of the last 4 major tournaments,have you?", and the next words were "nasty nasty", this would indicate that the adjectives were descriptive of the preceding comment. Nothing else.

And especially not the writer, God forbid.

Last example for this lesson. (This one's a bit more complicated.)

Example 4) "I'm a fucking disgrace." An adjective AND a noun in this case; let's call it a descriptive noun.

This one originated from the phrase: "That comment is nothing short of a fucking disgrace."

It very important to note in this tricky example that the 'descriptive noun' ( i.e. a noun accompanied by an adjective) qualifies the preceding noun. In this case it is the "comment" that is the preceding noun. So the descriptive noun "fucking disgrace" relates to the noun "comment." Nothing else. Not the paper it was written on, not the person that wrote it, not the birds in the sky. No siree! Only the noun that it qualified.

Now it is very important to distinguish between a person and a comment. A comment is a collection of words, whereas a person is a human being.

So therefore when using descriptive nouns such as the one in example 4, be sure that your descriptive noun is directed only at it's intended target, i.e. the comment, rather than the person.

Otherwise the writer might think think that you were describing him personally, as "a fucking disgrace". And we wouldn't want that to happen now, would we?

That's all for today folks.

The next lesson will be " How to use English to misrepresent someone's views." (With particular reference to covering your tracks by stating that your previous comments were intended as "a joke.")


Kevin Hudson
78   Posted 11/09/2010 at 11:00:51

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English for the blindingly obvious:

Definition of the word bigot: A person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her prejudices; especially one who regards or treats members of a group ( as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred or intolerance.

Go back to posts 45, 59, 59, 61,63, 66,& 70 and think very hard as to what your ORIGINAL purpose was, what was the intent? Being foreign as you are, and arriving here for the express purpose of critiscising members of another country, would quite easily qualify that noun being assigned to you ? and I used it FIRST to those whose singular purpose is to run my country down.(64)

How many times on this thread have you repeated a word, or echoed a theme that I've already used, to inadequately brush-over your hollow animosity ? which you KNOW is the ONLY reason we had this discussion in the first place?

Definition of the word bastard: informal, offensive. An obnoxious or depicable person.

Well, let's look at the evidence: In 74, it was the colour of YOUR language that plummeted to inelegant depths:

"Bitter, evil, cheap, low, twisted, nasty, bastard, bigot (x2), fucking (x2), garbage & disgrace."

You've been hoisted by our own petard, Brendan. Game, set & match.

Gotta run ? I was supposed to leave for the match 10 minutes ago!!
Brendan O'Doherty
79   Posted 11/09/2010 at 19:18:02

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"Game, set & match."

Only in your over-inflated head, you arrogant bully.

I am now a "foreigner" who has "arrived here", am I ?

This despite the fact that I was born and brought up in the UK.

Your posts are now beginning to sound racist, as you grow increasingly desperate to kick me harder and repeatedly with those toe-capped boots.

Put your Union Jack away and stop now, because your ignorance is making you look quite stupid.
Brendan O'Doherty
80   Posted 11/09/2010 at 20:54:56

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NOTE TO EDITOR

Michael, it might be an idea to close this thread before it deteriorates any further.

It has proved impossible for me to convince this character that I am not a rabid, visceral, english-hating, prejudiced individual, with an entrenched viewpoint.

My credentials to be an Evertonian have also been questioned - (".....inexplicably doesn't stop these foreigners from supporting English football teams"), which I am not at all happy about. I have also been labelled a "foreigner" who has "arrived here." You can see from my last few posts that it's now got my back up.

I would have thought that in these type of cases an agreement to disagree was the natural outcome; a score-draw if you like. But he seems determined to claim victory ("game,set and match" - #78), and to continue to put the boot in.

I just think that it might be the best thing to do before it gets out of hand.

Kevin Hudson
81   Posted 11/09/2010 at 22:43:21

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"Before it gets out of hand," you say?

Before??

I think that ship already sailed, Brendan; In post 74.

Maybe the editor could re-read THAT, assess the "deterioration," of your prose, the personalised abuse, the foul language directed towards,but not reciprocated ONCE by, me.

" Evil, cheap, twisted, nasty, bastard, fucking (x2) garbage, disgrace."

Did any of that come from me?

And yet you try to steal the moral high ground..

You attempt to curry favour with the Editor..

You want to call time on an argument, caused by your incitement..

You "arrived ,"here,( at the thread silly - not shores - don't even go there. ) passing yourself off as an Irish supporter - and with a name like yours, is it any suprise I guessed your nationality wrong?!

So I accept you may not be an English hater..But you are an English baiter.

SEVEN of your (already highlighted posts) bear me out on that.

And now, having said you would be saying no more on the matter, THREE posts on, you make a final, desperate,utterly shameless ploy..

You call me a RACIST.

Having repeatedly avoided answering a very simple question: "Brendan,why did you come to this thread to antagonises supporters of England?"

You then compare me to the Combat 18 yobs shown in the footage you so provocatively provided .

Toe-capped boots?

And then beg the Editor to close the thread..

What an absolutey shithouse tactic.
Brendan O'Doherty
82   Posted 11/09/2010 at 23:47:41

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More abuse.

"Beg" ? No, I suggested it would be a good idea. Your imagination is running riot again. Is 'exaggeration' your middle name?

"You call me a RACIST". Nope. I said "Your posts are now beginning to sound racist." Huge difference. Try reading the post again before rushing into a response.Your imagination is again running riot.

The same as "you proceed to label me .....a fucking disgrace". Nope again. I labelled YOUR COMMENT a fucking disgrace. If you read my English lesson in #77 you will see that there is a difference between a comment and a person. Your imagination is running riot AGAIN.

"And yet you try to steal the moral high ground". You feign offence at my language, saying that you would not resort to such a thing, so it is YOU who is claiming the moral high ground. Oh and FFS stop pretending that you are offended by a bit of swearing. It doesn't wash.

Finally some sense : "So I accept you may not be an English hater."

Why has it taken you all this time to admit that, Instead of dishing out a load of abuse at me ? Post #74 would not have happened if you had.

You decided to call Ireland " a pub team."

Incitement ? You bet it was. And then you are surprised at my reaction!

I cannot imagine what the reaction from you would have been if I had slated England in a similar manner.

As I've said before, I understand your unhappiness with my post in which I referred to the 1995 Ireland v England game.

But there was NO deliberate intent to incite England fans as you suggest.

YOU are the only one who appears to have been 'incited', and the result has been a MASSIVE OVER-REACTION on your part.

And despite several requests, you still refuse to answer the question "Where,in any of these quotes, did I imply that all England fans should be tarred with the same brush ?

You portray me as thinking that you are all the same, when you know that is not true. Blinkered? You bet it is.

"And no, you didn't get my nationality wrong. Again, I recommend you read a history book. You would learn so much, and you might understand a bit more about the viewpoints of non-English people.

And if you really want to know what "anti-English" is all about, I suggest you take the high road to Scotland. There, you will be in for a big shock.

PS I only decided to respond again because you decided to claim victory. ' Game, set and match.' That was very naughty. As I said in my post to the editor, these things usually end in agreeing to disagree, or something similar. But for one side to claim victory when the other has said that it will not be posting again, is an incitement to continue.

Like I said to Michael, I don't mind ending it now as a draw if there are no further claims to victory on your part.

Because he is going to close the thread anyway if this ranting continues.

Kevin Hudson
83   Posted 12/09/2010 at 01:23:00

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More abuse?? What would that be?

"Shithouse tactic?"

Well it was!

It's also a shithouse tactic to claim that you're being abused, when...

Drumroll..

" Bitter,fucking, evil, cheap, low, twisted, nasty,fuck, fucking, nasty,( again ) disgrace, fucking (again ) garbage, bigot, fuck,& you bastard"

All came from you!!

You wouldn't call that abusive? Did a complete stranger really deserve that much wretched language?

You quoted me: " So I accept you may not be an English hater."

Ain't it funny you deliberately omitted the rest of the sentence?

" ..but you are an English baiter."

I called Ireland a pub team. Compared to your litany of epithets above, surely this is tame in comparison?

After all, I joked that Everton played like an alehouse team in the 90's!

And you thought this was incitement..

After you invited everyone on the thread to take a look at a video showing Combat 18 in action.

Having told us that these were English fans..

We know!

But it was crass.

And you NEVER "only decided to respond," after the "game set & match," comment; Because you said in 74 that those would be your final words on the matter..

Except they weren't!

You came back in post 77!

The "game set & match," comment didn't appear until 78!!

Stop lying - it compounds your lack of credibility even further!!

But since your argument took a SINISTER turn into which you accused my writing of "sounding racist," wouldn't that imply the writer of said prose is now writing in a racist manner?

And isn't that the oldest & worst trick in the book?

The sign of somebody who's run out of options?

Of who's intellect has proven to be incompatible with that of his opponent, and/or the subject matter under discussion?

Who waves his white flag in desperation towards the moderator, begging for it to be over.

By all means call it a draw, Brendan..
Kevin Hudson
84   Posted 12/09/2010 at 02:08:07

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..By which I mean that MY contribution to this thread IS over.
Brendan O'Doherty
85   Posted 12/09/2010 at 02:32:18

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"Who waves his white flag in desperation towards the moderator, begging for it to be over."

AGAIN begging. No, suggesting. How many times do I have to repeat it to you?

'Waving the white flag' ? Surrendering ? Along with the phrase " who's intellect has proven to be incompatible with that of his opponent."

A final, desperate, claim that you have won the intellectual argument. A proclaimation of victory, in different words this time. Only now attempting to insult my intelligence, saying that it is 'incompatible' with yours. Nasty and personal.

Sure I'm only Irish anyway, and clearly don't have the intellectual capacity of my English superior.

Must remember my place, and should not be getting above my station.

"But since your argument took a SINISTER turn into which you accused my writing of "sounding racist," wouldn't that imply the writer of said prose is now writing in a racist manner?"

Erm....no.

In post #77 I did not contribute to the debate. I merely pointed out that you were using my descriptions of comments to apply to you personally, which they were not, as you know very well.

Eg. You said that I described you as 'evil'. You know perfectly well that I used the term 'evil dig'. How you can construe that to mean that you personally are 'evil', is I'm afraid bordering on paranoia gain.

And you again accuse me in your above post of calling you 'evil'. PURE AND UTTER FANTASY, you poor thing.

You of superior intellect, should be able to distinguish between what an adjective refers to and what it doesn't refer to. I thought I had spelt it out slowly in post #77, but clearly not slowly enough for you.

And you know my strong response in post #74 was AFTER you made the Ireland insult (amongst others), not before. So stop pretending to be shocked at my reaction.
Brendan O'Doherty
86   Posted 12/09/2010 at 03:01:40

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Accidental submission there - Arteta's goal came on the TV.

A draw it is then,

Important to note here that I'm NOT going to claim any sort of victory, of an intellectual nature or any other kind.

Simply because there clearly can't be one.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
87   Posted 12/09/2010 at 22:11:38

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Oh... I see you just carried on anyway. No matter.. there were only three people reading this after post #60... and two of them turned out to be the protagonists.

I lost any feint interest soon after, I must admit, but judging from the snippets I bothered to read (wish I hadn't) I think that, far from a draw, Kevin had you every which way and wins on points ? by a large margin!

There! ? now I'll accede to your wish and close the thread! ☺

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