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The dark days of David Moyes

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Well, it's come to this, A while ago, in response to a Moyes supporter who is silent now, I stated that I'd settle for Europa League or one of the cups. I don't think this was a demanding expectation considering the nonsense spouted on this site over the summer of top four or even winning the league. After all, David Moyes has assembled the best squad for years, and, let's not forget, on a fucking shoestring.

Here's the thing, though: he hasn't. The team he has built are not good enough. Of course one must take into account the effect of the coach on the team. Frankly, he has been found out.

Inept? Yes, I was criticised for using that word to describe our coach... but I feel happy enough to repeat it. Naive, unsophisticated, safety first to an almost cretinous level, unimaginative, dour and utterly incapable of moving our club forward.

Second from bottom and humiliated by Brentford. These are dark days indeed. I always thought that David Moyes was a man of principle and integrity; if I am right, he will have gone by the end of the week.
Andy Crooks, Belfast     Posted 22/09/2010 at 00:30:04

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Chris Stone
1   Posted 22/09/2010 at 04:53:18

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Well now we have been well and truly embarrassed yet again in a cup competition.

Does anyone still have faith in David Moyes? When all is considered, he has done a good job in stabilising us after the Walter Smith years but Moyes can only possibly be viewed as seriously overrated now by both the media and fans of other clubs.

I really think you guys who are lucky enough (or should that be unlucky enough!) to attend the home games regularly should start voicing your opinions loud enough for Moyes and the Board to hear. Then maybe he will do the decent thing and step down, before we have no option but to push him. He has had time, and yes, not a lot of money in terms of net spend. But our football (and more importantly the results we're getting) aren't reflecting the talent we supposedly have; players are out of positions, and obviously the right-hand side was never sorted either.

Moyes's decisions are mind-boggling and, as you guys, say he just doesn't LEARN from his mistakes. It's so painful. We desperately need some fresh impetus. Shame we gave him that nice new contract eh!

How much more of a train wreck is this season we anticipated so highly going to become?

Steve Foster
2   Posted 22/09/2010 at 06:21:40

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Sorry, I have always been shocked and offended for the dislike and sometimes hatred shown here for Moyes.

But, I think it is time for him to do the right thing, and move on. HE HAS TO GO!

OK, we all moan and groan about this and that, Blue Bill/Piennar/Neville/Ground Move etc etc But deep down, we know that compared to others, our club is in a good state. The squad is good/promising, the fan base is there, the players are happy.

OK, a sweeping statement, but the point is that there is no reason for this to be happening, so the buck has to stop with the manager!

4-5-1! How's about going for them with a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's Brentford for fuck's sake. Everything is so negative, so repetetive, it is like having Rainman at the helm!

No, I have loved the bones of Moyes, and had the nice glow when opposing fans have said how lucky we are, but come in, Mr Moyes, your time is up..........
Dermot Ryan
3   Posted 22/09/2010 at 06:33:26

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These certainly are dark days. And Moyes needs to acknowledge that there are serious structural problems (not a bad string of games) that need to be addressed immediately. But I don't want him to leave precipitously unless we have a coach who can work brilliantly with no money and the squad that we have.

Sadly, I do think there are coaches out there who could get a lot more out of this team than Moyes, but we need someone committed for the long haul and who recognizes that we are broke. I like Coyle but he is too untested. I hate O'Neill's teams. What about Bob Bradley? Too risky? Could he help bring Donovan on board? Or would he just lost the dressing room?

I have serious doubts about the following: Zola, Sven, McClaren.

Dark days.
Dermot Ryan
4   Posted 22/09/2010 at 06:43:21

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This is a rather depressing insight into Moyes' fatalistic defeatist attitude at the moment. His reading of a game after 20 minutes: "I actually thought after 20 minutes it wasn't going to be our night. I said that to Steve (Round) when we didn't get the goals."

David! You can change the dynamic. You can control the outcome of a game against a 1st division side.

20 minutes in and the cheerleader in chief has given up on the evening. Fucking hell.
Andy Mack
5   Posted 22/09/2010 at 06:35:25

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Very much agree, something needs to change, for the squad to play like this - and surely even a managerless team of our supposed quality should be able to breeze past Brentford - the players aren't playing for the fans, nevermind the manager. Is it Moysies stubborness that has Yobo, Pienaar, Bily, Yak, Vaughn, Anichibe and Gosling having a serious hump for the past season. Is it the training staff full of defenders, is it the useless Round, is it the big money offered to Arteta after ten good games last season?

Who knows, but a change is as good as a rest and the fans are restless.
barry tarplin
6   Posted 22/09/2010 at 07:26:40

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what got me the most is when he took the yak of for beckford, why not just play the two upfront. osman has a piss poor shot and irratates me alot aswell!
Mike McLean
7   Posted 22/09/2010 at 07:30:07

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I've got virtually no interest in whether or not the players are happy. I'd like to think they are, but seriously doubt it.

I am interested in whether or not they have respect for the Manager.

I have the impression that they don't. And that's lethal.
Michael Brien
8   Posted 22/09/2010 at 07:23:35

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I was at the match v Tottenham in August 2002 at the start of David Moyes 1st full season in charge. He played a 4-3-3 formation !! Hard to believe it I know. Over the last 12 - 18 months I have become more and more disillusioned with Moyes. And Steve Foster I am not anti-Moyes - I would be more than happy, indeed overjoyed to be proved wrong - but I feel that he is not able to change things.
I was watching the BBC's Football League programme last Saturday night, after Match of the day. I heard Steve Claridge commenting on Ipswich and stating that they had options upfront. So have we, but the Manager appears reluctant to use them. He continues steadfastly with 4-5-1 against virtually every opponent. His tactics have become at best cautious and at worst predictable. Too often he waits for things to happen before he makes a change - the best coaches/managers makes changes with a view to making things happen - they don't wait. Compare Moyes with Redknapp last weekend - both losing 0-1 at home. Redknapp is more adventurous, prepared to go for it and makes the changes that turn the game around. Moyes - same old bring on the attacking full back and the striker - well it worked in the previous match.
Me and my mate play this game within a game - guess the substitions Moyes will make. Or should I say predict the substitions that he will make.
I hope that I am wrong, I really do but I am afraid that Moyes is going to drag us down. He must show some variety in his tactics. Can he change ? I hope so, I really do hope that Moyes proves me wrong. I fear that he has become a latter day Gordon Lee. Back in the late 1970's Lee promised much - remember 3rd place in 1977-78 - top goalscorers in the Division and Bob's 30 goals !? Yet he got it wrong - ultimately by becoming too cautious- ditching creative players like Thomas & McKenzie in favour of plodders like Nulty & Walsh. Just like Lee back then, David Moyes has some fine attcking talent - he just seems incapable of getting the best out of them. For the 1st time in ages we have a virtually injury free squad - so he loans out Yobo & Vaughan !!! The last 3 seasons we have made poor starts - for 2 of them injuries have been a valid excuse and the fall out from the Lescott affair. No major injury worries this season - perhaps the previous 2 years hid the main problem - is the preparation in close season the issue ?
Players can have off days, so can match officials. But so to can managers, I think it is time for Moyes to step up to the plate and show us what he is made of. Take responsibilty for the performances David - it's you that decides the tactics.
Jalil Noor
9   Posted 22/09/2010 at 08:15:01

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He could start with dropping Osman from the 1st eleven from now on.

And putting people back in their proper place..you know Heitinga in CB, Fella in DM, somebody anybody in RM (as long as it's not Osman) maybe Baxter, or Coleman or Nev fuck I take Mucha even in that position. (can't do much worse can they?)

And play 2 upfront..,, we got many strikers don't we?

But I'm not paid 65k a week to make these decisions.. so what do I know ehh?
Erik Dols
10   Posted 22/09/2010 at 08:17:31

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There's one thing that terrifies me in the whole Moyes out or not-debate.

Who would be his replacement? Would we get a good manager in or will it be a disaster? I'm not convinced that Bill K. will find a better manager...
Mike Green
11   Posted 22/09/2010 at 07:48:18

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Andy Crooks ? the dark days of David Moyes is an interesting title for me as highlights another perennial problem.

Each year, regardless of injuries etc we always seem to have a 3 month long dressing room / internal bust up somewhere along the line ? usually at the start.

A couple of times, it's seemed to be down to Moyes holding out on signing a new contract, there was a big issue in the US pre-season from memory, wasn't there some business with Stubbs back in the day, etc... and every time it puts the spanners right into our season.

I've by-and-large been a DM supporter and think he's done a great job stabilising us but each time there is an issue he appears to generally be at the heart of it ? a dark situation which completely knocks the team off track. And if the rumours re: JH on another thread are to believed it looks like its going on again.

I think what has taken us all by surprise is we have a full squad for the first time in God Knows When and we have done the complete opposite to how we expected. Why?

Could it be that Moyes has built a squad to cater for injuries (i.e. too many utility players) and now he's not got enough quality specialists in the right positions? Could it be Moyes has no Plan B? Could it be Moyes has caused a bad atmosphere in the dressing room? Could it be Moyes cannot set up a team to play anything other than 4-5-1? Could it be the players Moyes has signed just aren't good enough? Could it be he doesn't know where to play them when all are available?

Only SAF and Wenger have had more time to construct a team. We should be purring like a Rolls Royce five games into the season but we are all over the place, in the relegation zone after having a v v favourable draw of fixtures, out of the first Domestic Cup to Div 1 opposition, STILL HAVE NO ONE TO PLAY RIGHT FUCKING WING 8 YEARS ON, are scratching our heads up front and moral seems to be unravelling before our eyes.

It's as if the boys start the season and they've come off their hols, Moyes turns the place into a boot camp, they react, there's a backlash from the players, he comes down even harder, breaks their will after a dozen games with the help of a couple of generals (Cahill... Neville... ) and then they fall in line and get on with it the David Moyes way by which time its all too late but at last we drag our arses into the also rans.

So. It's immaterial really as he's never going to go... but, cards on the table: We either stick with a defence-minded disciplinarian who will never win us anything... or IMO take us down ? or take a gamble on a manager with attacking flair and creativty with the risk of relegation, another manager within 2 years and utter chaos.

Could I see a show of hands please.....
Trevor Lynes
12   Posted 22/09/2010 at 08:23:47

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EVERY new manager expects money to buy players and thats definitely the case for the likes of O'Neill so why is he being even mentioned, its pointless.
For the present season we will have DM and thats what we need to face up to so these columns are a waste of time.
Criticism of the PLAYERS who are the general cause of our problems are more needed.
Since signing for more money Arteta has not produced anything to merit his payrise and he is not the only poor performer.
Osman is the constant whipping boy but almost all the team are not putting the effort in.
Confidence is lacking and none of our goalscorers are firing...
I watched a bunch of Arsenal kids turn Spurs over with absolutely brilliant football and Wenger is for my money, the best manager in the league with the best scouting system to back him up.
God only knows where we get our inflated ideas of success from with the bunch we have who cannot beat a bottom club in division one FFS.
We have not produced a really exciting match winner since Rooney.
Once the team get on the pitch the manager can only watch and use the assets he is given.
We are not good enough !!
There is not a really bad team in the premier this season and Im afraid we have a dogfight on our hands to survive, never mind win anything !
Dick Anderson
13   Posted 22/09/2010 at 08:35:59

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I think Moyes will be gone soon.

Fulham (a) we always lose to at their place.

Birmingham (a) Very tricky game. Birmingham are a team like Everton use to be. Tough, organised full of spirit. Could easily lose this.

Liverpool (h) When was the last time we beat them in the league? Andy Johnson's derby?

Spurs (a) Another away fixture we have an awful record in.

So the next four games are very tricky. We could easily lose all four. Surely Moyes will quit then.
Tony J Williams
14   Posted 22/09/2010 at 08:57:43

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I don't think Moyes is going anywhere until he decides to go, which may be sooner than we think, I would drop those dead heads in a second after this seasons toothless performances, so these bile filled rants are pointless. Who in their right mind would want to come to us. Anyone of note wouldn't and I wouldn't blame them. no money and the fans will be on his back if we don't win the first 10 games, calling him a coward etc etc

Dark times!, get a fecking grip.

It's only dark times to those who stupidly thought we would be fighting for the title/Champions League places. The rest of us can see it what is is. An average team that can't score in a brothel at the moment.

Yep Moyes deserves criticisms but those useless feckers in the middle need grief also. As Moyes said, "How many chances did we have?", more than enough to win comfortably but the players, yeah you heard me, the players need to start remembering that they are a professional footballer and start playing like one.
Paul Corbett
15   Posted 22/09/2010 at 08:51:57

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Like Erik #10 I'm struggling to think of a replacement for Moyes.

The obvious name that springs to mind is O'Neill but rumours were he left Villa due to lack on money so why would he join us.

Do we stick with Moyes and hope he comes to his senses sooner rather than later and realise that we can win games with two strikers and players who play in their correct positions?
Chris Stewart
16   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:05:45

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One of the problems is that we have now got a losing mentality...on the pitch and on the terraces. I got slated by some on the FB site by moaning about our "reserves" team losing to West Ham...the problem is that losing radiates throughout the whole squad (and there were a great number of first teamers in that reserve squad btw)....so now we approach games like Fulham and Birmingham with a "i'll take a point" mentality....its a nightmare that I can't see us waking up from any time soon.

And as for the "Moyes Out" brigade....who would you replace him with realistically....
Mike McLean
17   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:08:30

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Who would we replace him with? IT's a point, isn't it? After all, who would want £67, 500 per week.?

At this point, Lily Savage couldn't do a worse job!
Mark Murphy
18   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:09:16

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"He could start with dropping Osman from the 1st eleven from now on."
etc etc

But he wont!

And therein lies the problem!

6 games in and I've lost interest!!

f#ck em!
Henry Enzio
19   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:12:28

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Moyes isnt going and neither should he. People have short memories we started badly last year not really doing anything much till November.
We're struggling up front and it seems also for confidence personally i cant think of anyone better to turn this situation around. COYB!!!
Chris Stewart
20   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:15:30

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Mike, I'd have the job in a heartbeat but look around, who is there to replace him. if he walked we would be left with Round in charge until a replacement was found (personally I think he has brought fuck all to the party from day one IMHO)

Much like finding an investor, finding a new manager is for Everton (and it pains me to say it) a hard sell.

No money, bullshitting chairman, nearly bottom of the league, out of one domestic Cup, a team that is clearly unsettled, etc etc....

Not exactly going to pry Mourinho from Real for that now are we......
Dave Lynch
21   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:07:59

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I'd have Hoddle in a heart beat over Moyes.

Mike Gwyer
22   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:10:00

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Moyes is earning 3M a year. He has around 4 years left which would mean a pay off of around 12M. Not a fucking hope. Even if Moyes took a 50 pct pay off that would mean the next managers transfer kitty would be blown.

Moyes will stay till he has had enough of (a) abuse from the fans, last Saturday he was taking it by the truck load or (b) his image as one of the best EPL manager's has been shredded.

Personally, Moyes need a striker big time. The Yak really could not give a flying fuck, Saha is what we knew he would be and Beckford is out of his league - hence Moyes goes for the big fella up front.

So going forward, it's not so much "Moyes out" as "we need a fucking striker".



Andrew Clare
23   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:14:26

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I agree with Mike Green.What depresses me is that we have sunk so low over the past 20 years that sacking the manager isn't even in the thoughts of our board.If you can't build a team after being given eight years it is time to go.20 years ago you could say that we were on a par with anybody in the top flight but now we really are just also rans.We will lose on Saturday as there are no surprises in this team with this manager.Everton are totally in the doldrums with this Board and Manager.
Chris Stewart
24   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:26:58

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A large bulk of our relative "success" in the past few seasons has been based around team cohesion and fan fervour.

Once we start to lose those (as is apparently happening now) we are on a slippery slope....
Alan Clarke
25   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:32:16

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Tony Williams, don't be fooled into thinking no manager would take the job at Everton. We are a big club with a talented group of players. A lot of good managers would jump at the chance. Your way of thinking just adds more protection to Moyes.

I just think Moyes has been found out. His main way of playing football has been to get the players working hard for him. That's changed, they've stopped working for him and they've lost their fight. In other words it seems Moyes' 'best ever squad' have turned on him, he's lost the dressing room.

If we can't beat Brentford, what hope is there for this season? A lot of 'pro-Moyes' supporters always use the defence that he's steered us away from the dark days of Walter Smith. From where I'm standing, he hasn't so what defence is there now?
Thomas Christensen
26   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:00:50

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He believes he is invincible at Everton, he believe he can do no wrong and has done so much great work over the years that to oust him would be to the detriment of the club. For this reason I don't think Moyes will be gone by the weekend, listen to his post match interview after the Brentford game, even though he said he was 'worried' that word was put in his mouth by the reporter and he then dished is the slippey shoulder treatment claiming he is always worried. The tone of his comment do NOT suggest he is a man under any real pressure.

The board will seek clarity from Moyes as to which direction they take next. Moyes knows he is sitting pretty, he won?t get the sack and the club cannot afford to be rid of him. They cannot afford it and Moyes, whose love affair with the press sees him do no wrong, will be sitting pretty in that boardroom knowing that the media are piling no pressure on him at all to get results so what reason would they sack him??

Because we cannot score goals to win game I hear you crying. The board cannot sack him for this he highlighted the requirement to improve the squad over the summer and they are acutely aware that they, the board members, have impinged his desire to sign a truly World Class (to you a phrase) striker and right winger. Listen to every press conference he has held after we?ve lost this season and it is the same story, we are not scoring goals ? he is covering his arse using Bill Kenwright?s face to protect it and there is nothing Kenwright can do. After all, Kenwright didn't put up so they can shut up (even though Bill said ?there are funds available? this is possibly not 100% fact). Yes, they signed Moyes, Beckford on a free from Leeds and Gueye for less than £1m from Strasbourg, but in Moyes?s eyes these players are going to be ready in years to come.

He has lost the dressing room, no bad vibe has come from player attitude or leaking to the media. I think leaders within the team, Cahill, Neville and Jags are still right behind him supporting him. He is under no real pressure from this direction, ok perhaps Bily is in his ear a bit, but he started last night and didn?t run the game like you?d expect a £10m player too.

With no pressure from the Media, the players and with the Board not really able to apply pressure at this time I think we will have to put up with him for a long while yet. He thinks he is invincible and how can we argue.
James Newcombe
27   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:29:13

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David Moyes is a good manager, but I don't understand what's going on this year. 4-5-1 used to work when we were solid at the back - something that used to be a given with DM's teams. We can't keep a clean sheet to save our lives at the moment, so hoping to nick the odd goal just isn't enough. We might as well attack teams and that means playing two strikers, even if just for home games.
Alan Clarke
28   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:52:38

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Very true Thomas. The only way he'll come under pressure is from the fans but that will only happen if our bad form continues. Remember Kenwright didn't want to sack Smith for all the same reasons you mention but the fans gave him no option. We're in a catch 22 situation. None of us (Tony Marsh aside) want to see Everton lose but I don't think anything will change unless we see ourselves sat in the relegation zone come November. I can see the pressure mounting though if we've lost to Fulham and Birmingham and we're at home losing to the shite.
Rob Noonan
29   Posted 22/09/2010 at 10:00:00

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Who would you replace him with?
Instabiltiy on top of everything else won't help.

Moyes needs to rethink and act. Attacking football is the only way forward for this squad.
Glioris Nicolaou
30   Posted 22/09/2010 at 10:06:33

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I am extrememly grateful to what David Moyes has achieved for everton within very difficult circumstances. He helped us turn the corner from relegation battlers into european place challengers and on very limited funds. Moyes at times has turned ordinary players into good players and therefore it is proven that of course he does have good coaching skills! However...things change in football as in everyday life and Moyes achievements thus far cannot be used forever as protection against the sack as we start to slip backwards. Little things can cause big changes and it may well be that neither moyes or the players are able to quite maintain the intensity needed to complete at the top, this could be because basically they see that every year our board has us treading water and investment in the squad is less and less, i am not saying they would deliberately underperform but there is a fine line in this league between success and failure. Ultimately i ask as well, what manager would really make a difference for us long term under the current circumstances? There is no money to spend! no investment to increase the depth of quality in the squad! I am not a negative person by nature but i see our situation as extremely critical unless there are massive changes on the Everton board.
Mike Green
31   Posted 22/09/2010 at 10:07:59

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Dave Lynch (21) - good call. Hoddle is a complete nutcase but he's quality without doubt.
Charles King
32   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:48:24

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James @ 27

I must counter, Moyes is a functional manager he had the good fortune to walk into Goodison when all hope had gone.

He provided the bare essentials of organisation and solidity securing safety via hoofball.
An accomodating man, he has vitally secured the support of Ferguson a huge lever in manipulating the sheep like pundits and is part of a back slapping clique within football.

Chris Hughton is proving at Newcastle fundamental coaching within a "no expectation" environment can steady the ship, but we got past that some years ago and DM has failed to progress.
To be classed a good manager he needs to.

James Cadwaladr
33   Posted 22/09/2010 at 10:36:13

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Rob @ 29
--------------------------------------------------

Your 100% correct but unfortunately last night proved that it isnt on his agenda.

Andrew Ellams
34   Posted 22/09/2010 at 10:46:02

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What really pisses me off is this story about the bottle throwing. How much does that deflect from Moyes total inept management to the outside world
Anthony Hughes
35   Posted 22/09/2010 at 10:41:35

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This is such a typical season under Moyes.
Routine poor start to the season.
Routine cup exit to lower league oppostion.
Usual team selection employing old favourites regardless of performances or form of the players.
Same old formation regardless if it works or not.
Same old substitutions,(Hibbert off, striker off, striker on, no change of formation during game).
Usual situation where we will go on bit of run and people will say what a great job Moyes is doing turning it round when he's a big part of why we fucked it up in the first place.
Usual suspects in the paper babbling on about how we need to get our fighting spirit back and get back to winning ways.
Token gestures when we are in Europe as if we're just happy to be there.
It just going to go on and on because Moyes is going nowhere, he ain't going to quit and Kenwright definitely isn't going to sack him.
Martin Faulkner
36   Posted 22/09/2010 at 10:40:11

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We don't need a MON or a mourinho.
An up and coming manager would love to take control of this squad. What's more somebody with some tactical acumen which Moyes is severly lacking.
As already posted, Hoddle,
Clough & Keane would have a go too, no doubt a few more from the championship aswell, lets face it we're playing like a league 1 side at the moment
I honestly don't think Steve Round has brought anything to the table, if anything during his time here we have gone backwards. If it wasn't my own team and so sad I would have laughed my arse off when I saw him at the end of the Manure game, almost a carbon copy of Moyes. Moyes walks on and waves his hands and shouts, 2 seconds later Round does the same, pitiful.
Chris Sillett
37   Posted 22/09/2010 at 10:50:03

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I just can't see Moyes leaving any time soon and thats because we have one of the most incompetent and deluded chairmen in the country. I remember even after Walter Smith was sacked after one of the most humiliating performances i have witnessed (beaten 3-0 away to Middlesbrough in the cup) he described the decision as one of the most difficult things he had ever done in his life. With the relationship Kenwright and Moyes have i think it would take something as disastrous as relegation for Moyes to be threatened with the sack. This is how depressing the situation is iam afraid. After all, would Kenwright want to be put under any sort of pressure by a new manager who would actually demand and expect a respectable amount of money to spend? Not when he has a 'yes man' in charge.
Andrew McGreavy
38   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:17:32

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The chuckle brother is on the main site issuing the rallying cry, yawn, yawn, yawn !!!!
Martin Faulkner
39   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:23:15

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?If you don't score, you don't put the ball in the net and you're not clinical then you get what you deserve - we got that at Brentford.? Phil Neville
That's cause my dad's younger than the Yak, My Mum's fitter than Saha and I've got more experience than Beckford
Sean Mcglory
40   Posted 22/09/2010 at 10:59:06

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Manuel Pellegrini is the one to get when Moyes has gone. Forget the rest get get him in!!!
Charlie Percival
41   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:06:41

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Quote "I actually thought after 20 minutes it wasn't going to be our night. I said that to Steve (Round) when we didn't get the goals.

WELL FUCKIN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT THEN.

Moyes OUT, BILIC in
Thomas Christensen
42   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:22:54

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Andrew 38# - It does get boring listening to Captain Pip. After every loss saying the same old BS, but I guess as Captain he has to do it.
Chris Sillett
43   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:30:27

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If Moyes does ever leave then Mark Hughes, Martin O'Niell, Martin Jol, maybe even Roberto Di Matteo from West Brom. I think all of these could do a better job than the dour scot is at the moment.
Andrew McGreavy
44   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:37:04

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QUESTION: Does anybody think he will change the line up and play 2 up front at Fulham, or will he go all out for a point and a 0-0.

I fear he will give us all the finger and go 4-5-1.

Also last night if Moyes loves 4-5-1, why did we have 3 strikers on the bench and 1 on the pitch? Is this either, nobody else to sit on the bench or a lunatic at work?
Charlie Percival
45   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:40:39

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Another rallying call from Neville, GOD Everton are the most frustrating team in the world but I love them so much.

This may sound like it will make matters worse but Phil Neville will be the new Everton manager, his first game will be 4-4-2. You have to remember although Neville is Moyes bum boy, players will say things to Neville than to Moyes, also NEville will know Moyes has lost the plot.

Neville for Manager of the year !
Mick Gallagher
46   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:48:09

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2 away games Fulham & Birmingham next could be mid team or bottom. Now is the time Davie to earn your money and do something about or they might be a lot more wanting to give you your P45
Colin Evans
47   Posted 22/09/2010 at 09:37:33

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Get a grip!

We have had a bad start for sure > but the season isn't over yet.

Who else can we get who will do a better job? (with no budget for players).

Let's show DM a little faith... Hes shown loyalty to Everton - it's time for us to show some in return.
Chris Sillett
48   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:54:13

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Colin Evans....

If Moyes does ever leave then Mark Hughes, Martin O'Niell, Martin Jol, maybe even Roberto Di Matteo from West Brom. I think all of these could do a better job than the dour scot is at the moment.
Norman Merrill
49   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:36:14

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Martin Faulkner comment 36.
You are right in your comment on Steve Round.
He is a defensive coach, does that not speak for itself?
Yesterday morning on radio merseyside, he said that Moyes and himself have come to the conclusion that ONE up front was the way forward.
So it has been agreed, by the two running the team.
Anthony Millington
50   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:54:23

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6.Barry Tarplin- agree with you completely, what a negative attitude to take. We are drawing 1-1 against a Legaue one side and need to go an attack them for a win and when he decides to bring Beckford on, he takes the only other forward we have off! Shocking! Even Leeds United would play with two upfront, that's why Beckford scored goals for them because he wasn't always isolated like he has been for us!

He had the likes of Neville who's just come back from an injury and wasn't needed in midfield, Osman who is just not good enough anymore and that overpriced, spineless Belgian who I can say hand on heart shows the least passion of an Everton player I have ever seen! Talk about wearing the shirt with pride, and living up to Dave Hickson's famous quote 'I'd break any bone in my body for any club I'd play for but I'd die for Everton.'

It's obvious to me we need players who will give 100% and fight for the blues and it shows that for all the criticism Cahill gets, we really miss his workrate and goals. And players like James Vaughan would do no worse than the strikers now and I'm sure he'd work twice as hard and that can set the tone for the whole team.
Steve Higham
51   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:04:48

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When will our glorious leader ever learn. Thought with all the talk from the manager of 'back to basics ' that we would see a balanced team and players in their proper positions. How stupid was I to believe in miracles.
Moyes appears child like in his constant fundamental errors so why are we paying a manager £67.000 a year to behave like a child ?
Brian Foley
52   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:25:31

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Rob 29 & James 33 I'm with you. All the managers mentioned (and I'M not mentioning their names 'cos I'm sick of them all) are THAT much better are they?

I wish you would all stop banging on about the god lover he would get a nose bleed north of that RAC station Jcn 8 M5/M6 at Brum and doesn't give a fig about Everton. The ex-Villa manager has got Keeganitits when he can't have what he wants, the fuse and the bottle goes, and hey presto 'your' manager walks away, terrific. The Englishman with the Dutch (now German accent) would end up with a laugable scouse accent, and he's just a yes man, gives me the creeps seriously. Blue tint Swedish specsaver man is a MERCENARY with no compunction toward any history of our club, whose credibility and trustworthyness I rank st nil.

Moyes (AT LEAST) is NOT typical of ANY off the above, thank Christ. YOU SERIOUSLY THINK ANY OF THESE (ALL OF WHOM WOULD WANT BIGGER SALARIES THEN MOYES) WOULD DO US ANY GOOD?. We must NOT knee jerk and get rid of the manager.

The manager does though need to review his policies of player selection and style of play in order to ascertain what and how to get the most out of a pretty good crop of players, who must also take a good look at themselves. The first 30 minutes and the last 10 including that 3 minutes at the end of the M Utd game IS the way forward.

Moyes may well be (mostly) responsible in the eyes of a lot of you fellow Evertonians for our current predicament, so therefore he must be (mostly) responsible for getting us into Europe, so therefore he must take the responsibility to get us out of our current position. I BELIEVE HE WILL and I'll come back on here and hold my hands up if he doesn't whether he flounders, walks or gets the sack.

He has got us into some good positions in most of the competitions we have been in over the last few years, I can understand the current disappointment, and how frustrating he can be at times, but we desperately need Moyes to learn the killer instinct akin to a quality striker, when picking his teams and formulating the playing style, to get us that elusive piece of silverware.

Mike Green
53   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:07:45

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Colin Evans (47) - given we gave Moyes his PL break, stuck with him when we finished 17th and have made him a multi-millionaire I'd say we were quits wouldn't you?
Tony McNulty
54   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:05:03

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Andrew (#34)

Based on last night?s formation and other recent performances, maybe the bottle-throwing Brentford fan was trying to be helpful.

He was merely trying to return the bottle he thinks we have lost.
Anthony Millington
55   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:09:25

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Does anyone else think Moyes has wasted £25 million on his panic buys Bilyaletidinov and Fellaini? I do! Not enough pace, energy or fight for me. It says alot that Moyes spent £10 million on Bily and he can't even manage to play a full 90 minutes yet!
Dave Southon
56   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:13:44

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Dark days indeed.
DM must go or these next 9 months will be unbearable.

There are no excuses left, this season was always a critical time for him in my opinion, and he has failed.
Yes, people may say its early days yet that is not acceptable.
Everton deserve better than the shocking system he continually and subbornly supports.
Mike Green
57   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:10:53

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Brian (52) - and what if he doesn't?

Lets face it he's not going to change his tactics or selections so we're either stuck with it and it starts to bear fruit or we're stuck with it and we fold.

In previous seasons its done us proud but if the line is that fine between success and failure playing this way then I for the first time in (OK second) his tenure think we are in need for a change.

I can see us getting as few as 2 points out of the next 12, which'll mean 4 points out of a possible 27 which could be the "D" in "Down".
Dave Southon
58   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:17:28

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DM - This team should play at Craven Cottage

Howard

Hibbert Heitinga Jags Baines

Fellaini

Bily Arteta Pienaar

Cahill

Yakubu(unfortunately)



Joe Grundy
59   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:16:40

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After 8 well after last night 9 years of winning nothing under moyes, after being a supporter of him I have realised he is one of the least successful managers in the clubs history and fans of the club around my age (19) have basically never seen the club win anything and that is down to him. I would rather have a manager like Joe Royle was who plays to a teams strengths rather then moyes 4-5-1 against every single team we play with no difference in tactics in any game.

Last night was a disgrace, Bringing the Yak off for beckford was one of the worst substitutions I have ever seen, I dont see why we cant play 2 upfront. Also the story he has put out today about a fan throwing a bottle or whatever is a joke, trying to get the attention away from himself and I also can not be arsed with any more of the players saying we will improve/start performing etc.
Thor Sørensen
60   Posted 22/09/2010 at 11:47:50

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We really should have a dour, negative, miserable Scotsman in charge of this club. It just feels right somehow.
So, if Moyes goes, what about Paul Dickov?

Miserable twat and even a Glaswegian to booth. His negativity have fucked Oldham over, maybe he could come here and continue what he's doing there?

He could even be player manager and lead the line up front, so we save money from not buying a striker in january.
Alan Clarke
61   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:19:05

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Brian 52 - knee jerk? Are you having a laugh? How long has he been at Everton?

Anthony, 55. Spot on, add in Heitinga too. I don't think any of those 3 are bad players, they're just the wrong players. Last summer we needed a striker and a pacey right winger. We got another central defender or 'utility' player and a slow left winger who it turns out isn't a winger but we're not sure what his position is. The summer we signed Fellaini, we'd just missed out on signing Wright-Philips then we sign Fellaini. Even then our priority should have been a right winger but Moyes signed another defensive midfielder. So it's quite obvious why we've no balance in our team and why we've a total lack of attacking options.
Anthony Hughes
62   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:17:14

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Brian, you say we need Moyes to desperately learn the killer instinct when picking his teams and formulating his playing style.

We've been waiting over 8 years, it just one long repetitive cycle and familiar mistakes regarding team selection and tactics. If he hasn't learnt by now then i wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to change anytime soon.
Mike Rourke
63   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:25:54

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Okay, I'm not a member of the Moyes-Out brigade, however, after a morning of being continuously wound up at work i'm happy to throw Steve McClaren's name into the ring of possible replacements. Seems he has learned more than a thing or two since all that 'Wally with the brolly' shit.

If Moyes were to leave then I would insist on Steve McClaren as our next manager.
Neil Steele
64   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:36:16

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Steve McLaren is pretty much as negative as Moyes, he's crap.

There is a standout candidate, he has Everton FC written all over him from an attitude point of view and I will keep banging the drum

MARK HUGHES.

A proven winner, a terrible loser (unlike smirking, excuse making Moyes), and a man who has proven that not only can he work on a budget (Blackburn), he can also get a team playing with style and attacking intent.

Only on a 2 year deal at Fulham and would jump at the chance to manage this club.

Hughes and Bowen...the men to take this club forward.
Mike Rourke
65   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:39:10

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Mark Hughes? You must be havin' a laugh!

The Lescott saga aside, the main problem with Mark Hughes is that he is shite.
Anthony Hughes
66   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:39:50

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Anthony#55, agree on Bily, technically a good footballer but just wasn't what we needed when we bought him.
Fellaini needs to and can only play sitting in front of the back four. He's a liability playing up front or just off a striker because of his temperament, defenders are on to him now and are going to wind him up with pushing and shirt pulling.
He was lucky not to get sent off on Saturday and Moyes must see this and restore him back to his defensive midfield role, although with Neville fit again i can see Hibbert back in at fullback and Neville slotting in to midfield to play the holding role.

Lets hope Cahill's fit otherwise i think it will be Fellaini up front with a.n.other
Neil Steele
67   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:48:17

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OK mate, you obviously know best.
Michael Brien
68   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:31:54

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It would be brilliant if Moyes could turn the situation around. But at the risk of being branded Anti-Moyes I have to say I don't think that he is capable of doing so.
1) He is far too cautious.
2) He appears to adopt the same tactics/formation regardless of the opposition.
3) He is also far too predictable.
Blame the players is the cry from those who support DM - well it is down to the manager as to the tactics that the team adopt. He decides on the tactics, formations etc, substitutes and substitutions.
We have a good squad of players but I am afraid that I don't have 100% confidence that David Moyes is the manager/coach to get the best from those players. I would say David Jones is one name to consider. An Evertonian through and through who has worked miracles at Cardiff City. I think it is at least twice that they have faced winding up petitions in the High Courts, yet he has still managed to keep them up in the promotion hunt in the last couple of seasons. And in answer to the obvious response- well he hasn't won them promotion yet has he ? That's true, but given that the club has come close to going out of business just keeping them in the hunt for promotion is an acheivement in itself - and it proves that he can cope with pressure.
Chris Jones
69   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:45:58

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It's all about the next three games. It's up to you David - get back to showing some of the cavalier spirit that got you the job in the first place - or fuck off.

Martin Jol would be my choice. Tactically he's excellent and his teams play good football.

I'll be there gaina Saturday, with the other 2,500 balloons who give a shit. But I'm hoping more than I'm believing.
Paul Norman
70   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:51:17

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So, what now?

1. We have a chairman and board that are unwilling/unable to provide funds to address the key areas on the pitch, foremost of those now being a striker who can put chances away, and that other players will trust (could it be that our other players don't think that Beckford can for example?)
2. Our manager is unwilling/unable to change his favoured formation so that, for example, chances that are made are converted into goals. A lone striker who thrives with a strike partner replaced by an untested striker who thrives with a partner was never going to get us the result that we needed. Other issues with player position could be possibly be put down to working with what you've got or who's still talking to you in the dressing room?

Problem 1 - No idea how this can be addressed, where's our Billionaire and will our "true blue" leader and his pals sell? While it remains an issue, this will stifle any manager, a lack of tried and tested options (i.e. not Coleman, not Gueye, not a lone Beckford, not even Bily - yet?) is more than likely going to leave us looking bereft of ideas when the pressure is on.

Problem 2 - This is more worrying if it continues, something has to change quickly and convincingly.

So, I am David Moyes, what do I do now?
A closed door, open and honest, clear the air conversation with MY players; Play players in their correct position - Fellaini holding mid, available for defence to pass the ball to, JH central defence, 2 up top - Beckford playing off the Yak if TC's not available? Right-mid, who knows?; Make decisive, attacking changes when things aren't going our way - drop/substitute my favourites if I have to, but somehow work to the strengths of those players that I've got.

If that doesn't work then, and as a grateful DM fan it pains me to say it, time for a change of manager. How much longer does he get? I say he's got 4 more games.

And then the very valid question that frequently gets shot down on these pages, who else can/will do the job? It's going to have to be someone who's relatively cheap (we can't afford £65k a week if we've just had to pay DM off), someone willing and able to get the best out of the squad he inherits; and someone able to work with one of, if not the, tightest/most stingy transfer budget in the Premier league. I think there's only 1 man that fits the bill, our very own chuckle brother Phil Neville. That doesn't fill me with as much dread as I thought it would.

Make no mistake, getting rid of DM is a huge gamble, for all of his faults he has brought stability, expectation and (currently dwindling) respect and pride back to this once great club. This gamble should not stand in the way of the falling axe if the time is right, and that time may be near.
Christopher McCullough
71   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:49:08

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"David Moyes has assembled the best squad for years, and, let's not forget, on a fucking shoestring.

Here's the thing, though: he hasn't."

Of course he has, that much is self-evident.

"The Dark Days of David Moyes" have been full of hope compared to Walter Smith's charge; the team is qualtatively better than those of Royle, Walker and Howard the third.

Venomous attacks aside It's clear that something has to change throughout this club. I just hope its for the better. Maybe you should apply, Andy Crooks.
Ray Robinson
72   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:44:31

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I'm as frustrated as the next supporter but the one thing that pisses me off just as much Moyes's tactics and the dire situation that we find ourselves in at the moment, are all those people claiming to know such things as "Moyes has lost the dressing room", "Round has brought nothing to the party", "the team has developed a losing mentality", "Moyes turns the place into a boot camp" .....

Unless you're on the inside, does anyone really know? There's opinion and there's speculation to suit your argument. I have no inside information on what goes on at Finch Farm, so I'd prefer to restrict my output to an opinion, which is that I don't like the team selections, tactics and the failure to address certain positions that were in obvious need of strengthening LAST season. For that, Moyes is culpable.
Mike Rourke
73   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:52:12

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That's what you call beating the drum, is it Neil? Lost art of discussion and all that...

In all Hughes's managerial career he has done nothing demonstrably great, be it at Wales, Blackburn (slow but steadyish improvement a la Moyes), City (transfer record laughable - see Lescott) or now Fulham.

I don't want Moyes to leave, I'm not beating any drum for McClaren and I certainly don't claim to know best, but at the very least the man with a very odd accent seems to have learned from past mistakes and taken a club from outside the Dutch big three (assuming that is the status of Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV) and won the league. Seems to me that's exactly what we are demanding from Moyes.
Ray Robinson
74   Posted 22/09/2010 at 13:08:52

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Mike, don't necessarily disagree with you but were you aware that McClaren was seemingly facing the sack due to his poor start with the German side he moved to? Who'd be a manager. Hero one minute, villain the next.
James McGlone
75   Posted 22/09/2010 at 13:06:29

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Andy, i'll be happy to debate this with you as long as you want.

We aren't playing well, and we're in a bad run. We finished last season unbeaten in 11. The players aren't playing well and the football is crap. Just last season - our football was superb for the most and we were steamrolling teams. I know that was last season, but that shows that this is not a bad team - just in a bad patch.

I have every faith in the manager and players, and that collectively, they'll look at themselves and turn it around.

Also, maybe the Moyes supporter you speak of is just fed up having to constantly defend him knowing that the team always turn it around and then the nay-sayers are then nowhere to be seen.
James Cadwaladr
76   Posted 22/09/2010 at 13:03:54

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Brian at 52. The make up of the squad is wrong, the make up of moyes tactics is wrong. His tactics wont change and whilst we all say he has balanced the books etc. He has still spent (gross) £100m on putting his squad together. The greatest squad for 20 years and we are 2nd bottom without a win and we cant see where the next goal is coming from.

Therein lies the problem with Moyes.

Come on Kenwright grow some fucking balls.
Neil Steele
77   Posted 22/09/2010 at 13:12:16

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Mike, you are completely wrong about Hughes, and show an astounding lack of understanding of his record. Hughes achievements with Wales and Blackburn were nothing short of superb. Granted, the City debacle doesn't look good...but you then have to make a call as to whether he became a bad manager, or whether he was undermined by the owners and doomed from day 1.

City is a circus, to judge him on that, at the stage they were at, is plain wrong in my view.

The job he did at Blackburn is the more comparable one, and he was sensational.

How you bring Fulham into it, when he has been there a matter of weeks....i'm not quite sure. It's probably an indication of the strength or validity of your opinion to be honest.
Keith O'Brien
78   Posted 22/09/2010 at 13:27:28

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Shocking result again last night, but are'nt we used to this by now??(Shrewsbury, Oldham etc.). I dont honestly feel that we need to panic yet as previously mentioned we did'nt get going until November last year. I cant see any major considered manager wanting to join us either, with one of Martin O'Neills reasons for leaving Villa was spending funds. We are in the mire right now and I agree Moyes negative tactics of playing one man up front is crazy. Football is weird and wonderful sometimes and I bet we can get our act together soon. We are after all 'too good to go down' are'nt we?
Mike Green
79   Posted 22/09/2010 at 13:18:16

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Ray Robinson (74) - please dont quote me out of context - I said "its as if Moyes..." thereby admitting I don't know and am just giving my view on what I think might be going on. I am allowed to do that you know whether it pisses you off or not.
GJ Butler
80   Posted 22/09/2010 at 12:15:20

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Wake up Andy.

As a realist more so than a Moyes supporter I stated a while back our situation reminds me alot of Charlton Athletic for some reason - back when they were unhappy with midtable mediocrity in Curbishley and demanded change. Look at them now. Our situation will not change with a change of manager. It requires a change of ownership.

As for 'expecting' a Europa league place or even a cup - the FACT is there are 6 teams with much better finances than us - Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, Man City, and yes, Liverpool - so to finish above any of them in this day and age would be a remarkable acheivement, regardless of who is in charge. That leaves us and Villa battling for 7th & 8th, which I am sure is where we will end up. Am I happy about it? Not entirely, but I accept it is the best our manager can do given the hand he has been dealt.

Yes, its a poor start and yes, losing to Brentford is embarrassing, but I won't be looking for a knee jerk reaction. This is the same side that lost just twice in 20 something games last by the way!
Jamie Tulacz
81   Posted 22/09/2010 at 13:56:21

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James (75)- think that sums up the situation perfectly. 5 games into the season (admittedly poor) and 8 years of good steady progress all forgotten. All teams go through a bad patch of form occasionally, this is ours. Look at the league positions since Moyes took over- huge improvement from relegation candidates to European challengers.

For all those criticising negative tactics, who else would you play up front? Yak- who is patently unfit and doesn't seem to care at the moment, Beckford who is untried at this level, Saha almost permanently crocked. Seems a waste of 2 team positions, to be playing 2 out-of-form strikers rather than just the one

All very well saying, as some have recently, that Vaughan has just banged in a hat-trick, but that's being wise after the event. And it's not like Moyes had any cash to buy another striker in the transfer window.
Brian Waring
82   Posted 22/09/2010 at 13:55:51

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GJ (80) Is it the ownership who pick the team?
Is it the ownership who choose what tactics to use?
Is it the ownership who play players out of position?

Whilst the board are a waste of space, the shite start is down to Moyes.
Paul Henshaw
83   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:02:28

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Compare the 2 from last weekends games-

O-1 down at half time....take off a full back and replace him with another,likewise a forward. Keep your formation and hope for the best.

O-2 down at half time....make a couple of subs because your formation isn't working and go and try and score the goals to win a game.

Scenario 1 outcome-Piss poor performance with the manager saying he didnt think the subs he made couldve been game changers and the players need to buck up their ideas,taking no blame himself......0-1 loss

Scenario 2 outcome-Manager rallies the troops,throws on an extra forward and says afterwards he picked the wrong team and formation before the match and had to change formation to win the game.........4-2 win

Now i'm not saying he is the man per say but a young,fresh manager at lower league level LIKE Lee Clark at Huddersfield who can see where he is going wrong may be the way forward.Just like Davey Moyes used to be!

McLaren,Eriksson,Hughes,O'Neill.....utter tosh!
Brian Lawlor
84   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:04:31

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This site continues to amaze me. Everyone was really optimistic before the start of the season and 6 games in we've had a shocking start. Last night we should have scored at least 5. Ok we didn't and we're out. So just 6 games he needs to go does he?

What astounds me even more is who the people on here should replace him - Martin O'Neill, Glen Hoddle, Nigel fuckin Clough. That tells me all I need to know about their football knowledge. Incredibly one poster is even suggesting things are the same as they were under Smith! FFS you need help lad.

Jeremy Benson
85   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:24:28

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Why does the lad need help?

To be fair, things are pretty much as they were under smith. We went trophyless, and flirted with relegation.

Same old.
Jay Harris
86   Posted 22/09/2010 at 13:59:12

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1 million to spend close season on a top quality striker, a right sided mid and a quality CB.

With all the talk of breaking into the top 4.

Is the board having a laugh.
Andy Crooks
87   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:29:37

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Why should we fear replacing David Moyes? At the end of walter Smith's"dark days" the club was cash strapped , flirting with relegation and morale was rock bottom. We brought in a young, dynamic coach who brought optimism and hope.
The same coach is no longer dynamic and hope inspiring. Why can we not do as before?
Lee Kidd
88   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:39:20

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@87 Andy Crooks:

Literally spot on in every way.
Anthony Hughes
89   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:33:53

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"For all those criticising negative tactics, who else would you play up front? Yak- who is patently unfit and doesn't seem to care at the moment, Beckford who is untried at this level, Saha almost permanently crocked. Seems a waste of 2 team positions, to be playing 2 out-of-form strikers rather than just the one"

....................................................................


Jaime, who brought the unproven Beckford to the club? Who brought and then went on to give another contract to the most injury prone striker in the league?Who could have sold Yakuba to generate funds to buy a new striker?

No prizes for getting this one right.
Tony J Williams
90   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:43:42

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When have we actually flirted with relegation? Don't include the 17th place, as we have sufficienty points 5 games from the end; hence when we lost said games we were still safe.

It was the same after we finished 4th, "It's a relegation dogfight" the worriers cried, the same last year. "It's a relegation dogfight" you cried.

We have not been close to even worrying about relegation since after the first half season he came.
Brian Lawlor
91   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:38:59

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Jeremy Benson - I'm not even going to argue with your post. You need help as well. Your only saving grace will be if your 14 and don't remember us under Smith, which in itself makes you pretty poor for not knowing your history.
Brian Lawlor
92   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:49:01

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Tony Williams - spot on. I can't get my head round that people are actually comparing Moyes tenure to Smiths. The football was absolutely dire under Smith, we were regularly dumped out of cups by lower league oppostion and deservedly so. The sqaud was full of ageing has beens. We were flighting relegation every year. Whenever we played the top 4, it was a case of how many we'd concede never mind actually competing. All Smith would ever say is 'dissapointing'.
Ray Robinson
93   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:53:19

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Mike #79, my apologies. I skim read the post and tried to remember examples of "speculation". I don't think the sentiment of the post is affected even though I got the wrong end of the stick in your case.
Anthony Hughes
94   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:53:12

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Thats's abit selective Tony, forget Moyes bad league positions only look at the top 10 ones? I agree we've not flirted wtih relegation but we've not flirted with winning fuck all either aside from a lame cup final showing
Mike Green
95   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:59:24

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No worries Ray - bit of a knee jerk reaction from myself if I'm honest - I'm probably more offended that you only skim read my post rather than poring over every word though! :D

Take it easy.
Terry Hayes
96   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:58:16

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Chris Jones(69), I totally agree about Martin Jol. I have been banging on about him for ages, a manager that plays with flair.
Never thought he got a fair deal at spurs and from what I hear he is up for another crack at the EPL.
Brian Lawlor
97   Posted 22/09/2010 at 15:05:31

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Anthony - talk about being selective what about all of times we've qualified for Europe. All those European away trips we've been on. Prior to Moyes, we'd qualified for Europe (CWC) once in 20 years.
Anthony Hughes
98   Posted 22/09/2010 at 15:11:37

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Yes Brian, qualified for the second rate European competition(Bolton and West ham and Portsmouth have even been there, fuck me Fulham reached the final) and whats happened when we've got to Europe, yes exactly, the first decent sides we face we're out.
I suppose we'll just settle for being there, doesn't matter if we don't win it.
Terry Hayes
99   Posted 22/09/2010 at 15:23:46

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Neil Steele (64), Would that be the same Mark Hughes that said, "It's tough on the small clubs when the big boys come knocking" ? re Lescott? Why would we employ that fucking knobhead?
GJ Butler
100   Posted 22/09/2010 at 15:23:10

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Brian @ 82. Moyes does indeed pick the team, and in my opinion has proved himself capable enough over the past 8 years to be allowed to continue to do so.

A shite start as it is, can some of it be down to the players just not performing aswell??
Dave Lynch
101   Posted 22/09/2010 at 15:39:49

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Brian. 97.
The reason we never qualified after the CWC is we where banned.
Remember that ?
Tony J Williams
102   Posted 22/09/2010 at 15:34:57

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So what you are saying then Anthony is you agree we have not skirted with relegation? How then is Moyes's time the same as Smith's?

Yes we haven't won anything but I am guessing the forray into the Champions league qualifiers and the actual 2 times we have qualified for the league part of the Europa is a little bit better than worrying about whether we will have enough points to stay up, don't you think?
Anthony Hughes
103   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:03:04

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I haven't compared Moyes' time with Smith.

What is interesting though is the past managers section on this site. Smith's section shows some strangely familiar traits we see in Moyes.
Lol McNally
104   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:04:07

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Funny how we were all happy with the draw... the lowest team in the Cup ? just shows we have no winners and a tactless manager: 100% shite.
Joe Carroll
105   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:05:32

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Gone by the end of the week????

Some people are unbelievable.
Brian Lawlor
106   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:01:55

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Anthony - I don't remember getting anywhere near Europe with Smith. That's the point. Dave Lynch - of course I do. Moyes has qualified for Europe 4 times in his tenure that's a pretty decent return Smith, Walker, Kendall twice never managed it once. .
Anthony Hughes
107   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:12:32

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Brian, i'm probably getting petty now but forgetting Kendall's time here in the eighties, Moyes has had more seasons at Everton than Smith, Walker, Kendall and Royle all put together. He's had much more time to try and get us into Europe let alone win something.
Tony J Williams
108   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:16:35

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but its still a 50% "relative success" rate in regards to Europe though isn't it?

Probably more to do with the Premier league now being shite after the "sky teams" but it's still a respectable return for a skint club
Lol McNally
109   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:07:26

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Terry (99) ? We will see who the best is on Saturday...
Brian Lawlor
110   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:19:34

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Anthony - let's put it this way. Moyes has qualfied for Europe everyone other season or 50% of the time. How does it look now? Still got your anti-Moyes blinkers on? What about the LMA accolades? What about the recent statistic that league achievements versus net spend, we're the top achievers. People who are calling for his head need a bit of realism.
Damian Waite
111   Posted 22/09/2010 at 15:55:37

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Although I am loathe to join the 'Moyes for the sack' (growing) army, I feel that he has lost his way and has begun to show the signs of a weary incumbent bereft of any fresh ideas.

? The signing a Bily for a huge amount of money (relatively)
? The persistence with tried and tested Distin, Hibbert and Osman
? The tried and tested yet dour 4-5-1
? The inability over many years to strengthen what has always been Moyes's achilles heel ? 'Attack'

Moyes has had his successes in the transfer market and in league standings. it is too easy to forget how truly awful the 'Smith and Knox' years were. Terrible players playing, terrible football using terrible tactics resulting in relegation fears for years.

Moyes has turned the club into a side who regularly compete in the top half of the table and are capable of reaching finals and semi finals of cup competitions despite cripplingly low cash reserves. Teams like Man City, Spurs and Villa along with the big four all easily outspend Everton and have done for many years. The fact that we have been competing against these teams is credit to the man and his players but eventually the gap has to widen and as it stands there is a yawning chasm between the clubs mentioned and ourselves.

Accepting mid-table for a club like ours is simply not on and Mr Kenwright must take the lion's share of responsibility and this is where I feel the real problem lies. A huge injection of cash is crucial to the club ? otherwise, teams like Birmingham, Fulham, Sunderland and eventually all the rest will be outspending this club.

Is Moyes the right man to take the club further? Probably... but, if not, then I can name two managers who would bring fresh thinking, exciting football and positivity back to a club so desperately in need of all three.

Roberto Martinez and Ian Holloway!
Robbie Shields
112   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:16:26

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There's only one Glenn Hoddle, one Glenn Hoddle, there's only one Glenn Hoddle.

This guy turned the mighty Swindon Town into a very good footballing team, then on to Southampton, and they were are very good footballing team, next stop Tottenham, and they played great football under him. This guy knows how to coach and attack, Everton would be transformed over night and it would actually be fun watching us play again.
Anthony Hughes
113   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:27:54

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League achievements versus net spend? What does that trophy look like, sorry not seen that one.
Terry Hayes
114   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:28:00

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Lol (110) Even if we lose, he will still be a knobhead. If he got offered the job and he accepted it, then that would tell me all I need to know about the camera-posing pretentious prick... fuck off, Hughes.
Brian Lawlor
115   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:34:50

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Damian - absolutely spot on. Anthony - this is where the 'realism' comes in. We are and have been overachieving with the resources we have. For anyone to think that getting rid of Moyes will suddenly see us win trophies is living in a fantasy world. For all the years pre-Moyes we were knocking on relegation's door we are now consistently challenging for Europe.
Tony J Williams
116   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:36:06

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Roberto Martinez.......for fecks sake, we had that name last season and then Wigan were getting twatted by lower league sides, not beat on penalties but beat 4-1. They have has 4/5/6 nils all over the show.

Ian Hollerawaywiththefairies... Christ, the rest of the post was quite sensible then you hit us with these two, surely a wind up.
Tony Cheek
117   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:35:30

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We do not need a Mourinho FFS..all we need is a manager who will pick the right players, play them where they are best and and uses his brains when it comes to tactics ....and should preferably have some balls. All the requirements sadly lacking in our £65,000 a week excuse.
Jeremy Benson
118   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:51:23

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Re: Tony Williams @90:

"When have we actually flirted with relegation? Don't include the 17th place".

Errr....ok. What would you call 17th place? Eye contact? 11 places away from Europe? A champions league place in a reverse table?

My oh my, the rose-tintedness for Moyes apologists is mighty strong.
John Smith
119   Posted 22/09/2010 at 14:07:54

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@Keith O'Brien (78)

So what are you saying? that we're
just to lie down and accept yet another abysmal start to a season just because we never picked up until November last time??

Last season was a fucking failure, no matter what angle you look at it from, why people on here choose to celebrate finishing 8th is beyond me, its an embarassment to our club.

If we don't pick up until November again this season, then its going to be yet another mediocre, awful season of finishing as also-rans.

@GJ Butler (80)

I'd say Villa have better finances than Liverpool so how are Villa not mentioned on your list of club's with better finances than Everton, yet Liverpool are!?
Jeremy Benson
120   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:55:15

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Brian Lawlor, I neither need help, nor am I 14.

I just have a different opinion to you....apologies if I don't conform to your way of thinking.
Tony J Williams
121   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:53:34

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So any Tom Dick or Harry will do then Tony? Thank Christ for that, here's me thinking we actually need a good manager and better players. It seems all we need is to play our average players in the right position and we will tonk all before us.
John Audsley
122   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:43:55

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Gawd... So far this season the players attitudes has been piss poor. Last night took the biscuit with players rowing with each other, constant shrugs of shoulders and Felli and Moyes at each other a number of times during the game. I've not seen this for a very long time

I blame the players mainly with Arteta, Distin, Johnny and Felli getting most of my bile, but Moyes is the Guv. He is clearly doing something wrong. Personally, I think he, Round and the players believe they are on the verge of greatness (a top 4 finish!!) and have started the season with arrogance. The players have alluded to this a touch and I think it's true. They all need a good slap, Moyes included.... and Moyes will never walk and Blue Bill will never sack him, ever.

Our team's attitude stinks bigger than anytime in my 28 years as a fan. You would'nt want many of this lot fighting in the trenches with you... Pathetic!
Tony J Williams
123   Posted 22/09/2010 at 16:58:13

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Ermmm Jeremy, where we ever in a position where we might have went down? That would be a no!

It's nothing to do with Moyes but everything to do with you Moyes haters trying to rearrange history to suit your rants
Jeremy Benson
124   Posted 22/09/2010 at 17:07:20

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You must be joking tony, you're the one rearranging history - truly unbelievable that you wont admit that 17th place is flirting with relegation.

Total joke.
Lol McNally
125   Posted 22/09/2010 at 17:06:26

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Terry (114) ? you sound like the wife... she hates him as well.
Brian Lawlor
126   Posted 22/09/2010 at 17:10:06

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Jeremy - the blip season under Moyes where we finished 17th, we were always comfortably away in terms of points from the relegation places. As for opinions, only a total crank will say we're the same under Moyes as we were with Smith. Something tells me you're an internet fan and don't even go the game.
Tony J Williams
127   Posted 22/09/2010 at 17:17:12

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Again Jeremy, I will ask, where we ever in a position to be relegated? The answer is no, so if we were never going to be relegated, we were not flirting with it.
Robert Daniels
128   Posted 22/09/2010 at 17:35:32

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Walter Smith had to be sacked, we were shite under him!

David Moyes needs to be sacked , we are shite under him!

Moyes has had 8½ years, and spent over £100 million on that load of shite. He has spent more than Walter and Royle, and been afforded more time. Get shut!
Otto Heinonen
129   Posted 22/09/2010 at 17:47:01

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I like David Moyes. I think he is great manager and he has a big heart for Everton. He took us to FA-cup final. I have always had a big faith in him. Like there is a masterplan that will someday win us the title.

If we lose to Fulham, I would like to see him leave. Enough is enough.
John Audsley
130   Posted 22/09/2010 at 17:57:57

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hmm

Otto you may have something with that comment.......
Charles King
131   Posted 22/09/2010 at 17:20:22

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Just thank fuck Kirkby was knocked on the head.

Its bad enough we appear to be intent on becoming Coventry City or Southampton, a half empty Tesco Express stadium trumpeting our ignominy in the Championship would be the absolute end.

A footnote to the full circle of Walter Smith - David Moyes - Walter Moyes situation.
Noticeably, it is no longer deemed a surprise if we get turned over by Brentford nor is it newsworthy we could end up relegated.
Tony Cheek
132   Posted 22/09/2010 at 17:57:39

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Tony j......if it was my you were referring to....I dont mean any Tom Dick Or Harry....these are the requirements of a good manager , of which Moyes is not...I do know what Nil Satis Nisi Optimum stands for ....do you ?
Andy Hegan
133   Posted 22/09/2010 at 18:04:33

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When are we going to realise? Moyes just doesnt get attacking football. He has a track record of ruining strikers by asking them to play in an entirely different way to which they were bought for when they impressed at their previous club. 10 years nearly and we still havent dispensed with the long ball regardless of the stature of whoever is up front. Beckford, a player who can only be effective running on to through balls and playing off the shoulder of defenders never receiving such a pass since he signed for us. Fellaini surely only playing as a forward because of his height, our best player for most of last season being wasted in the wrong position and rapidly becoming disillusioned. Certain players still being selected despite consistent poor performances. Arteta, surely our most overrated player in living memory taking the majority of dead balls yet having difficulty in find his intended? target.

Adding more fight to performances is usually the rallying cry of a team in crisis not one with ambition, and nor should we accept it after the amount of time that Moyes has been at the club.

To be in this position of having one striker, (I dont include Saha in the equation, nor Beckford who if he does have any level of success with us it wont be any time soon) and no right sided midfielder is nothing short of criminal.
Andrew McGreavy
134   Posted 22/09/2010 at 18:04:44

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As if Newcastle and Brentford wasn't bad enough, my one consolation was my other half is a West Ham fan (lol) despite living in the South East, I have kept my three girls blue, much to there mums annoyance.

Imagine my sadness tonight as my eldest girl, goes to bed for the first time in a West Ham nightie, she has told me Everton are rubbish, Moyes you have a lot to answer for, pass me a tissue someone.
Andy Crooks
135   Posted 22/09/2010 at 18:16:02

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Tony J , I am not a Moyes hater. Nor are you an apologist. I reckon we want the same thing .
John Daley
136   Posted 22/09/2010 at 17:34:44

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People piss me off when they start claiming critics of DM are simply overreacting to a 'blip' or a 'bad start' and then conveniently overlook the previous abysmal spells we've suffered during his managerial reign.

The criticisms aimed at moyes are not founded solely on the last six games. It's like his advocates all have selective memory loss. He's survived comfortably and not faced any real pressure from the fans during previous piss poor patches which would have seen the managers of other clubs come under severe pressure.

1) The season we finished 17th with the lowest points total in living memory and fallings out with several players, including Stubbs, Rooney and Ferguson.

2) The total capitulation of the team following elimination from the Champions League qualifiersand an atrocious thrashing (1-5) in the Uefa cup. Terrible league form followed, including 0-4 spankings by West Brom and Bolton, and continued up until a lucky last minute win against Sunderland on New Years day.

3) End of the 2007-08 campaign where, following a 3-1 win against Portsmouth and with Everton sitting in 4th place and looking a lot better than the RS, the team went on to spectacularly blow any chance of Champions League qualification with a run in of 1 win in 8 league games. Moyes was clueless how to deal with the situation and the team only just scraped qualification for the Uefa Cup with a win against Newcastle in the last game of the season.

4) Start of the 2008-09 season. Moyes spent the summer dodging questions about signing a new contract and moaning about how his small squad weren't in any shape to win games in the Premier League. Like neither of those situations were fuck all to do with him! A crap start ensued with the team sitting 16th in late October, having also been knocked out of the 1st round of the Uefa cup by Standard Liege and the 3rd round of the Carling Cup by Blackburn.

5) The start of last season which saw a 1-6 thrashing from Arsenal, defeats by the mighty Burnley, Hull and Bolton and a 0-7 aggregate defeat at the hands of Benfica. 4 wins from 18 league games up until Boxing day. Shite.

6) Here we go again...
David Grace
137   Posted 22/09/2010 at 18:44:08

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Andy Hegan, I've got to say your comment of Arteta being our most overrated player is absolute rubbish!!

Don't agree with jumping on the Moyes Out bandwagon, he's done a lot for this club and when we were on a fantastic run last season where were you lot then slagging off the style of play, the tactics??? People seem all too quick to jump on his back when times are crap, yet I bet you were chanting his name last season, hypocrites!!!

Although I've got to agree I'm becoming increasingly frustrated with the constant decision to select Osman, and the obvious waste of money on Bily, surely a club in our position can't waste that sort of money on utter shite, Moyes has made mistakes and is sometimes too stubborn for his own good, he needs to drop Osman and give Coleman a shot on the wing, Fellaini DM and lets get two forwards up there with Coleman flying down the wing!

I have every faith in Moyes to pull us out of this, what I don't have faith in is the Board and Bill's 'search' for investment ? what a load of crap that is!!

And theres absolutely no-one out there I'd want to take over from David Moyes... Mark Hughes ? fuck off!!!!
Andy Crooks
138   Posted 22/09/2010 at 19:00:43

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By the way, Tony, I never mentioned Walter Smith.
John McLoughlin
139   Posted 22/09/2010 at 20:21:01

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I bet Colin Harvey wished Kenwright was chairman when he was our manager, He'd have never been sacked. However, at that time we were good team with ambition and before a few years battling in the lower half of the league stopped our fans demanding more and accepting the crap we are getting just in case it does get worse. Given the backing or lack of it Moyes has had from our pathetic chairman he has done a great job. But he gets paid very well and we cant live on we are no longer a relegation team for to long. Nil Satis Nisi Optimum just because the board dont beleive in it doesn't mean we dont have to.
Sean McCarthy
140   Posted 22/09/2010 at 20:26:57

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"Ian Hollerawaywiththefairies... Christ, the rest of the post was quite sensible then you hit us with these two, surely a wind up."

I'd only just stopped laughing at the mere suggestion that 'Olly' (as he's known to his mates on Sky Sports) becoming Everton manager when I read the above response.

Last night was bad but hang on... Holloway?? Martinez???? I really think not!!
Ciarán McGlone
141   Posted 22/09/2010 at 19:59:17

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One thing's certain ? Moyes is going nowhere. He was appointed and retained because he is a lap dog to our incompetent guardians.

Meanwhile, we are left with a manager who fails to learn the most basic of lessons ? how hard is it to pick the correct players for the correct positions. People ask who should replace Moyes ? well how about any one of the thousands of armchair fans on the internet who can clearly see the mistakes this man makes every week?

Irrespective of the protestations of the Brady bunch, Moyes is not the man to take us anywhere near the league title. Even if he had money he'd probably still play Messi at centre half, and keep Osman in right midfield.


I despair.
Mike Stead
142   Posted 22/09/2010 at 21:04:38

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David Grace 136, absolutly spot on..

This is the same manager and the same players that we were convinced we were going to have a serious challenge on the top four.. Sack Moyes after 5 PL games and a cup exit, do me a favour.

There is a reason why David Moyes is held in such high regard by people in football, and this is due to the fantastic job done by him at Everton without a pot to piss in...

People on here talking about Martin Oneil as a replacement? Why, what has he done for Villa that Moyes hasn't for Everton, apart from spend a shit load more cash???

We are all frustrated by Evertons start, this was our chance and yet again we are fucking it up for ourselves, maybe we should start by having a proper pre-season, and stop playing friendlies against shite teams in Australia and America, and begin the season in a competative frame of mind!!
Tim Kells
143   Posted 22/09/2010 at 20:56:46

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Tough times indeed. Those of you though asking for DM to be sacked need to remember what happened to Charlton after they got rid of Curbishly.

Any new manager who has little / no money to spend would soon find its impossible to match expectations with reality.

Where your anger should be directed though is towards Kenwright. Everton through and through he may be but until he gives up his train set then we have no hope in competing. I.e. If Kenwright had given DM a budget of say £15m in the summer rather than nothing, would he have signed a league one and unknown portugese striker with it. I think not. Sack the board.
Neil Steele
144   Posted 22/09/2010 at 21:55:43

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Good shout Tim...don't forget to warn them of the possibility of us "doing a Leeds" as well!!
Andy Crooks
145   Posted 22/09/2010 at 22:06:05

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Chris McCullough, I actually meant to respond to your post earlier. I usually like what you say,it has a kind of what the fuck is he talking about air to it. (that 's a compliment , by the way, Chris) but really. The fact that that David Moyes has assembled he best squad for years is "self evident" How? By the league table? By our cup wins? By our wonderful football? Come on, it's time to stop defending the indefensible.
Andy Crooks
146   Posted 22/09/2010 at 22:17:55

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Otto, your post (129) cheered me up in a bizarre kind of way.
Roy Coyne
147   Posted 23/09/2010 at 00:26:27

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After reading all the posts my opinion is similar to Erik#10 and Paul #15 I just think it will not be easy to replace Moyes.What sane person would accept the job.no cash to buy and working for a complete clown as chairman,no doubt he would ask Dave who should replace him.I can only see who ever took over to be some one wanting to make a name rather then someone who has is it worth the gamble not sure myself
Christopher McCullough
148   Posted 23/09/2010 at 01:11:02

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No Andy, by the players.

I also usually like, and always respect, what you say; that is, except for the premature abuse ejaculation toward the manager.

I just believe in this team. It's the first one that I can genuinely defend, in terms of individual ability, when in an argument with my redshite mates.
Tony J Williams
149   Posted 23/09/2010 at 09:05:38

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Neil, to do a Leeds you have to have a bit of money to start off with and have a team capable of winning things.
Neil Steele
150   Posted 23/09/2010 at 19:53:18

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I know Tony...I was being sarcastic. If I have to read one more moron write about us "doing a Charlton, "doing a Leeds", or suggesting that any manager who isn't David Moyes = "going back to the days of Walter Smith or Mike Walker" I think i'll fucking combust.

Seriously, who are these cretins??
Tony J Williams
151   Posted 24/09/2010 at 09:04:21

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No probs Neil, so was I

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