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Goodison redevelopment

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Ok, I think there is enough being written about onfield issues, so I thought I'd change tack by highlighting this: http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/2010/09/22/blues-submit-plans

The club appear to be moving to redevelop the Park End. Scant details thus far, but I wonder if this signals a staged redevelopment of the whole of Goodison? It strikes me as fairly pointless to just redevelop the best stand we have and leave the others alone long term. Surely the sensible option would be to increase existing capacity in the Park End to compensate for the lack of revenues if other stands were knocked down / redeveloped?

Any of you got any thoughts / greater knowledge / news?
Andy Morden, Staffs     Posted 22/09/2010 at 20:29:50

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Michael Kenrick
1   Posted 22/09/2010 at 21:14:49

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Andy... wrong end of the stick, I think

This is not a redevelopment of Goodison and they are doing nothing to the Park End stand.

This is a standalone retail, leisure and corporate business block, completely separate from the stand.
Ged Alexander
2   Posted 22/09/2010 at 21:17:55

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If the shoe fits, you wear it. Apparently the new Park Lane Mega-store and admin block will fit in the Goodison footprint. The Park End car park has always provided a space to exploit... which begs the question: why, if the footprint can take a big store, can it not take a bigger stand? If the footprint is big enough, fill it.
Robert Daniels
3   Posted 22/09/2010 at 21:20:49

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I've just seen the proposed new development for the Park End car park. While it looks ok, and at least its an improvement to the stadium, I can't help feeling we could've done so much better!

It is being totaly funded by our retail partners, and according to Bobby, is a winner on the financial side. With a bit of foresight, couldn't we have gone a little bit further with this project? Could we not have asked our retail partners to redevelop the Park End stand, with a second tier, and incorporate the new development inside it? This would potentialy give us a double whammy, ground improvement, more corporate facilities, and everything the new development has as well.

I have read the proposed new structure ,is costing £9 million. How much more would it cost, if we went for the second tier option? We could even incorporate an Everton hotel. I can't help, but feel this might be a chance missed.

Brian Keating
4   Posted 22/09/2010 at 21:42:40

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"can it not take a bigger stand?"

"Could we not have asked our retail partners to redevelop the Park End stand, with a second tier, and incorporate the new development inside it?"

We're not selling out Goodison every week as it is, where's the need for extra seats?

It's extra corporate boxes the club wants, this way they can fit them in.
Robert Daniels
5   Posted 22/09/2010 at 21:47:49

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Brian,

I know we're not selling out every week, but we should expand for the future of Everton. It's like buying a two-bedroom house, and not worrying if you have six kids.

If we ever look like we might win a game, never mind a trophy, gates will improve. Wembley semi against Utd was 70% Everton, I had Utd tickets myself.

Short-sighted to say the least!
Tom Bowers
6   Posted 22/09/2010 at 22:40:20

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Off subject for a moment I could not believe that Osman is the hero for Northampton. Quick sign him up.
Andy Crooks
7   Posted 22/09/2010 at 22:39:25

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As someone who knows nothing about this I would love to know if the re-development is viable?
David McKitt
8   Posted 22/09/2010 at 22:51:08

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Tom, at least Osman scored in one of the games!
Andy Morden
9   Posted 22/09/2010 at 23:24:23

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After re-reading the original I think you are right Michael. Ah well, got excited there, this is what happens when you take on board information with a muzzy head due to a headcold.

I think it was the bit about 420 hospitality places - I automatically assumed they meant boxes, but I presume that in reality they would be replacements for the legendary marquee. I suppose the good thing is that corporate facilities in the ground will be increased, but it doesn't really answer the ongoing stadium / revenue issues.

Last time I post with a headcold / not digesting info. duh.
Alex Kociuba
10   Posted 23/09/2010 at 00:51:53

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I've often wondered, if it would theoretically (i.e. we had money) be possible to displace part of Stanley Park onto the current Goodison land and build a new stadium over the road on the park. If connected by a bridge no actual park land would be lost - it would just be a different shape and include a stadium.
Michael Brien
11   Posted 23/09/2010 at 07:22:41

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Brian Keating - we may well not have a "sell out " attendance every week. However we consistently "fill" a great percentage of Goodison Park for most matches. When I first went to Goodison in 1964, I think that the capacity was 65,000 - we certainly didn't have attendances of that number for every match. My Dad bought me my first season ticket as birthday present in Auguast 1966 - it was for the old Main Stand and cost £8.40 ( we called it 8 shillings in those days!!) - In that season of 1966-67 we had several full capacity/near capacity attendances e.g.

August 1966: Charity Shield v Liverpool 63,000 League v Man United 61,000 and then 3 days later League v Liverpool 64,000. That was for the first 3 matches at Goodison that season!! Later on in February 1967 we had 61,000 for an FA Cup replay with Wolves and then 65,000 in March for the 5th Round tie v Liverpool. The attendance for the 3rd Round replay with Burnley had been a little disappointing at only 54,000 !!! ( that was midweek by the way!!!)

Sorry for the history lesson Brian - but the point I want to make is that historically we have had big attendances. I think the average attendance for that season was about 46,000 - in percentage terms around 65% - 70% of the capacity. But for the "big occassion Goodison would be packed to the rafters.

Arsenal averaged about 38,000 in the last few seasons at Highbury - but historically Highbury had been a stadium that at one time could hold 75,000 then in the 1960's it was around the 60,000 mark. It is little wonder that they went for a new stadium that could hold 60,000 - and sure enough they get very good attendances at their new ground. Even though it had been over 30 years since they had attendances of 60,000 for home games, due to the gradual reduction of capacity - historically they had been a club like ourselves that had such attendances. Aston Villa and Spurs are similar cases - indeed Spurs are desperate to increase the size of White Hart Lane - back to a stadium capable of holding 55,000+ attendances.

If Goodison had a bigger capacity, maybe the ticket prices could be kept at a reasonable level. As an exiled supporter here in Lincoln, there are some games I just know I will have very little chance of getting tickets for - games against the likes of Man United for instance - as they will always be a big attendance whether the capacity is 40,000 or 50,000.

As an Irish supporter I am interested in the redeveloped Lansdowne Road, at 50,000 I still feel it is 10,000 less than it should be. However the design is interesting and personally i think a that a capacity of 50,000 would be an ideal figure for Goodison.

David S Shaw
12   Posted 23/09/2010 at 08:49:24

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When this is built would this therefore end any opportunty for the Park End to be expanded?
Matt Boden
13   Posted 23/09/2010 at 09:22:24

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Is this a post from Davey Moyes? Nice deflection, like the alleged bottle thrown into the crowd! I was in the crowd and believe me we threw enough at them. Now back to this point, no real fan gives a rats arse about the ground, yes we'd like a better one, but I want to still be in the cup and further up the league more! I want a manager with a plan b. Let's get a decent team sorted first! Then worry about off field matters!
Brian Keating
14   Posted 23/09/2010 at 10:09:31

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I know we had huge attendances in the past, but where are they now? We can't fill 40,000 so why spend money on adding seats that could be spent on the team?

"Arsenal averaged about 38,000 in the last few seasons at Highbury"

38,000 was a sellout at highbury and there was a huge waiting list for season tickets. Did we sell all our season tickets this season? no.

Andy Callan
15   Posted 23/09/2010 at 11:48:18

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This is just another Everton shambles waiting to happen and nothing but a smokescreen to mask to real issues at our club. Again.

Fuck off Everton; I'm sick of it.
Tony J Williams
16   Posted 23/09/2010 at 13:22:40

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I am with Matt on this (apart from the daft dig at Moyes)

it seems all too convenient that it's coming out now when we are again having a shitty start to the season.
Michael Brien
17   Posted 23/09/2010 at 13:13:04

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Brian - our average attendance with a capacity of 40,000 has been consistently around the 36,000/37,000 mark that's around the 90% of the capacity of the stadium mark. In the mid/late 1960s we averaged about 46,000 with ground capacity of 65,000 that's approximately 70% of the capacity of the stadium.

Matt - I am as critical of Moyes as anyone but, as was mentioned at the start of the post, it was put out as a change to the onfield issues. If you don't like that then there are plenty of other articles/posts that refer to the matters on the pitch.

Oh and about no real fan giving a "rat's arse" about the ground. That's the kind of attitude that lead to the Bradford City disaster in 1985. I used to be a steward at Lincoln City - I have seen the Police/Fire Brigade Video's of the fire ? not easy viewing, I can assure you of that. I think it's about 10 years or so since I saw some of the "official" film of that disaster and some of the images will stay with me forever so forgive me for going off on one so to speak - but not giving a rat's arse about stadiums is both reckless and stupid. We all want Everton to be sucessful, but neglecting the stadium is as bad as neglecting the team in my opinion.

Michael Brien
18   Posted 23/09/2010 at 13:28:28

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Sorry that should be "no real fan not giving a rats arse..... "- I still think it's a reckless opinion. The problems we have at the moment with Goodison have been caused because we have spent too many years neglecting the Stadium.
Tom Hughes
19   Posted 23/09/2010 at 14:40:52

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The new construction is quite old news, regardless of the suggestion that it is a smokescreen to detract from current woes.

As regards attendances, I think the club sells-out all of it's non-obstructed views for practically every league game. It should also be noted that a good proportion of even those are actually obstructed to some degree, despite there non-obstructed-description (if measured by other club's standards). The fact that people now have other options to watch Everton Live: either on line, or in most local pubs means many will not be attracted by an obstructed view for £20-£30+. If properly priced (say half price) , I think most of these would also go more regularly and more capacity would be required.

IMO, in the short-medium term the club require additional high value capacity (exec boxes/corporate seating with proper facilities), and probably more mid-level-quality seating (similar to the Park end in standards). This can be achieved at the current site and can take a multitude of formats. This project illustrates the pontential for such developments to be partially or wholly self-funding. Similarly a hotel/conference/exhibition development might part fund a new tier at the Parkend or above the Bullens. The result at first might be a moderate capacity increase, with potential for further large scale redevelopment in the future. It is a serious option, and one utilised by many other clubs..... simple incremental redevelopment!
David S Shaw
20   Posted 23/09/2010 at 17:11:19

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Tom, surely this new building will severly restrict (prevent?) any Park End expansion in the future?

There's egress routes to think of as well for any expansion there.

It surely at least prevents any ideas of rebuilding the Park End further back to allow for a larger footprint Gwladys St end?
Tom Hughes
21   Posted 23/09/2010 at 17:26:38

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David,
It's quite difficult to judge from that image alone, but there is a deceptively large area in that corner. As far as access/egress is concerned, there is no reason why a new upper tier/extended Park-end couldn't be built above the current street-level circulatory areas. Even as much as doubling the depth of the Park-end would only bring it roughly upto the line of the old Goodison Avenue on the goodison road side (and that would be a monster end stand). I agree, it might represent a missed opportunity in moving the pitch southwards (centering the pitch with respect to the mainstand side, and allowing the St End to be enlarged), but even this wouldn't necessarily thwart an eventual overall 50k+ redevelopment.
Robert Daniels
22   Posted 23/09/2010 at 18:11:39

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Tom,

Would the new building stop the Park End redevelopment, say if we didn't own it?

Would there still be room to add a second tier, and incorporate a hotel?

It strikes me as valuable land, in the context of a New Goodison, so to speak.

I'm just concerned that we are not making the best use of the space, you know, a quick fix!

Do you have any details surrounding the deal with kitbag, is it leased to them?
Andy Morden
23   Posted 23/09/2010 at 19:11:15

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@ Matt #13 - why yes, I am David Moyes. Hence our on field woes - I'm too busy pissing about on websites creating 'defelction stories' to be taking tactical drills on the training ground...





But being serious, yes we do have off field issues that do not need to be ignored, however, to suggest that the stadium is not an ongoing and important issue is a bit churlish. No one cares? The Kirkby debacle seemed to generate a ton of debate and a myriad of emotions amongst fans.

Aside from the ongoing debate about my, ahem, sorry Moyes' tactical nous, willingness to take risks and drop 'favourites', very real issues revolve around and cross-cut revenues, capacity, attractivness of coroporate facilities and possible investment. As well as the issues around safety etc, made very well by Michael Brien.

No matter who is in charge, in the current era they would have financial constraints. Another thread has highlighted we have spent £1 million on players this summer. Ok Villa have hardly splashed the dough, but a lot of other teams have and are catchig up. You can't afford to stay still. So, frankly it is an issue for fans.

Matt Boden
24   Posted 24/09/2010 at 08:27:58

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Oh dear, looks like I've upset a few people one this thread, non more so than an ill tempered so called editor of this site, who found time in his daty to email me about my post. Saying it was irrelevant to the original post? Well I apologise if I have put a few noses out of joint by saying no real fan gives a rats arse, but if you read between the lines and not be so literal, it is about putting the team first!

A gleaming new stadium does not guarantee success. It merely guarantees that the shower of fat directors at our club get a higher didvidend at the end of the year, as the clubs assets are higher. How many clubs with new grounds are winning stuff at the minute? Stoke? Sunderland? Bolton? Middlesborough? Aresenal? Yes the gunners have been standing still since the switch to the Emirates!

Yes Goodison needs a face lift, but so does the entire club! I along with a lot of loyal fans made the 6-hour round trip to Brentford the other night, after the humiliating Newcastle game this was another kick in the teeth! Only to be greeted by deflecting tactics by the club rasing the ground issue!

You ask any of those fans on the M6 that night about the ground and I reckon you would have been told so stuff the ground and Osman, sort the team out first. So before you slam me again for being passionate about on-field matters, just use your brains and realise that the team versus ground debate is a valid one!

Tom Hughes
25   Posted 24/09/2010 at 16:07:58

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Matt,
It's not really a team versus ground debate though is it? It also has very little to do with your loyalty or miserable round trips to Brentford..... however commendable these things are. I'm sure many of us have endured similar, many times, over many years/decades, but they also have little or nothing to do with the thread...... and that concerns a development project at the existing ground, nothing to do with a new stadium at all.

While On and Off-field issues/developments are not necessarily mutually exclusive, they can be valid discussion topics separately. Otherwise we wouldn't bother with threads at all, and just go for a free-for-all shouting match.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
26   Posted 24/09/2010 at 16:46:31

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Thanks, Tom for trying to explain this to Matt. I've been trying off-line to no avail. He makes a stupid post mainly out of frustration but, instead of accepting that, then bends over backwards to justify it, along with more utter nonsense about "deflection posts" ? even to the extent of claiming that the club chose to put up the referenced piece about submitting plans for their admin block to "deflect" the fans' ire at recent poor results!!!

Passion is one thing, but when it reaches the point of self-delusion, I think one needs to step back a little and take a deep breath.

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