Have we lost the passion?
I've read some stuff on here. Beyond the entertaining personal feuds a few months ago someone happily said, leave the flag waving and singing to the reds, now someone states they'd be happy if we regularly achieved 7th, another is unconcerned about winning anything.
I get pissed off but increasingly feel like a dinosaur.
Pedestrian, unimaginative and unsurprisingly losing football, ditto a Board of incompetents, ditto wet-lettuce ivory-tower postings justifying why we're shit.
Our forefathers who told John Houlding to stick Anfield up his arse and picked up shovels and converted a boggy field into Goodison Park would be mortified at the pliant state of some modern day Evertonians.
The contrast to the kopites in their parallel start is striking, debates on radio and tv, calls for Hodgson to go restless natives, an indicator of intent......ie don't accept failure.
I'll stop now, the temptation to dissect the Moyes Myth is overpowering when my real point is ....
"do enough Evertonians really give a shit?"
Charles King, Posted 24/09/2010 at 13:38:42
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1 Posted 24/09/2010 at 14:40:33
2 Posted 24/09/2010 at 14:51:48
3 Posted 24/09/2010 at 15:14:16
Lost ambition.... Yes.
4 Posted 24/09/2010 at 15:09:35
So, my real point - do you imply you give more of a shit about Everton than me because I don't want to sack Moyes?
5 Posted 24/09/2010 at 15:35:41
6 Posted 24/09/2010 at 15:32:40
7 Posted 24/09/2010 at 15:35:13
I also remember reading of late that if you don't do x then you shouldn't consider yourself a "real Evertonian".
Getting back to the initial post, I am losing passion in going the match, as aleady this season I have said that I am not renewing next year, that is the same amount already as the whole of last season and my mate has said that he will now stop his baby son from supporting us, as he couldn't face the heartache it will bring.
I used to be as angry as the next man after a defeat, now I just can't find that anger, it's just exhausting and, as Walter himself would say, "disappointing"
8 Posted 24/09/2010 at 15:33:52
GJ, you can be a realist and be ambitious, 8th should never be deemed acceptable at our club.
9 Posted 24/09/2010 at 15:44:26
10 Posted 24/09/2010 at 15:41:05
Too many fans are more interested in making excuses and in feeling sorry for themselves.
We are not the great fans we make ourselves out to be. As a whole we are very self-conscious as fans, and can be so obsessed with Liverpool that they are to the detriment of Everton.
I portion some blame to the backwards mentality of WSAG, a dinosaur of a fanzine with no relevance to what going on today.
Many of our fans do not realise their power as a collective unit.
11 Posted 24/09/2010 at 15:42:28
Anyway, to clarify - its my opinion that based on current squad depth, available money to spend on transfers and wages, we probably come in around 7th/8th on a par with Villa and behind Chelsea, Arsenal, Utd, City, Spurs & Pool.
But that's moving slightly off the topic of the original posters question!
12 Posted 24/09/2010 at 15:55:51
8th becomes acceptable, lower unacceptable, and depending on how much higher, a certain level of achievement.
13 Posted 24/09/2010 at 15:53:53
Of course I give a shit. My wife, the few mates I have, and all my kids will confirm this.
Unfortunately I have seen the good times regarding EFC: trophies, winning teams and regular 3 or 4 nil thumpings. However, the bollox I'm watching at the moment deserves all the criticism it gets.
Managers will continue to come and go, I mean I've seen a few at EFC, but rest assured when things get bad the manager is the man who will take the hit.
14 Posted 24/09/2010 at 16:12:15
15 Posted 24/09/2010 at 16:12:19
16 Posted 24/09/2010 at 16:14:43
17 Posted 24/09/2010 at 16:04:53
I really think that the billionaire owner thing is ruining football, but it isn't going to change so Everton will have to follow suit to compete .
Right now I think the passion is at a low due to the anti-climax that this season has been . A few great results will soon change that .
Andrew Fair - The fans support at the Newcastle game actually backs up Charles King's piece .The only passionate fans that day were to be found in the away section . We were as flat as the team it was embarrasing .
18 Posted 24/09/2010 at 16:19:51
Then again we have not been getting bigged up by Sky from "their" day dot, and have not won a tap since "football began" so why would it be big news away from us, the fans?
19 Posted 24/09/2010 at 16:21:19
20 Posted 24/09/2010 at 16:14:40
It would be nice to hear some of the old songs and some new ones. We need something to sing about, though.
There's no such thing as the 'Moyes Myth' It's a clash of subjective opinions. Some regard their own opinions very highly. Which is amusing.
21 Posted 24/09/2010 at 16:22:12
Thats not good enough for this club,we should be striving for better.
On the other hand the RS fans are not happy to be mediocre and are demanding major changes over there.
22 Posted 24/09/2010 at 16:10:47
What is not fleeting is the supporters and what their expectations are of the current custodians of this previously most far seeing and innovative sporting institution. We are at this moment in the hands of such a motley crew of incompetents, selling off basically everything the club owns (including players when required) to keep the club's head above water, that I cannot see any light at the end of the tunnel.
Mr Moyes, for all his failings, has done an incredible job in keeping this club from oblivion. I am sure that when he took control the club was finished as a top flight player, relegation and ignominy just around the corner. With the board we had and have, we would never have come back again as a force. The ground, for me, is a priority for major overhaul and upgrading, but that will never happen, so we keep playing in front of small crowds, with poor corporate facilities, generating zero income.
Mr Moyes was and is a fire fighter, who came in when we were dead and he has turned the club into a sleeping giant again, but I don't think he can take us to that magic level were all truly great managers and teams perform to their absolute. This situation is exacerbated by a by a Board that cannot or will not allow Mr Moyes or the team and club to take that one final step that will see Everton successful again, as well as generating the revenue to keep them there.
That is why I feel Mr Moyes, an honourable man, will, if over the next month the results don't improve, offer his resignation. What worries me is the situation at Man City with Mancini, he could be sacked by the weekend if the result against Chelsea is a negative one.
Mr Moyes's team totally outplayed City last season, home and away, beat Man Utd and Chelsea ? a fact I am sure not lost on the City hierarchy; he would be a shoe-in for the City job as he is very highly thought of in the football world, no matter what Evertonians think of his shortcomings.
A Moyes with unlimited funds, do you think he would be successful, well do you??
23 Posted 24/09/2010 at 16:41:11
24 Posted 24/09/2010 at 17:15:49
Maybe some of us are conditioned by so much disappointment over the years and by being serially let down.
Maybe I feel particularly disappointed by the fact that there was a point or two towards the end of last season when we were playing some of the best football in the league and yet we now have 2 points and languish at the bottom of the division. Where has all that optimism gone?
Maybe I'm also disappointed that the club could not find a way of signing Donovan. Maybe I'm disappointed too because we couldn't sign anybody beyond a few promising youngsters.
But particularly, I am disappointed how glibly the club can announce we have no money (again) to cure the most basic ailments in the game.
Maybe I'm disappointed as well because I, a mere layman, can see the glaring deficiencies and where changes are required but the manager doesn't seem able to.... except with the benefit of hindsight.
Maybe I'm just depressed. Yeah that's it. I'm depressed because I do give a shit. I'm just not in the mood for shouting it from the rooftops that's all.
25 Posted 24/09/2010 at 18:05:11
At one time playing like shite,being potential relegation candidates and benign genuflection to wealthier clubs would have unleashed fury among the faithful, cushions in the air time.
Nothing like that is happening at Goodison whilst protests are planned at Anfield.
Hope thats a bit clearer
The idea of a night out and sing a long puts me in mind of the "Gang Show".
But like GJ's response you shed a certain light on the original question.
26 Posted 24/09/2010 at 17:47:39
We will turn it around at some point and be playing good football again. I think we all believe that regardless what our current state of mind is. Hopefully our turnaround comes soon and we can go on a good cup run.
We all know that when we play to our potential we can beat the best which includes winning the FA cup this year.
27 Posted 24/09/2010 at 18:25:02
I'm curious, now. Which kind of light have I shone ?
Sorry I must be overlooking some aspect of your analogy. In the past I've posted in favour of rallies outside Goodison to pressurise the board, and show that we still believe in Nil Satis Nisi Optimum.
The only similarity I can see between GJ's post and mine is that we both mentioned David Moyes.
28 Posted 24/09/2010 at 18:33:44
There's a difference between lacking passion and being realistic.
29 Posted 24/09/2010 at 18:33:58
30 Posted 24/09/2010 at 18:41:29
31 Posted 24/09/2010 at 18:39:51
I tried to bring this subject up on another post by emphasizing how much the r/s protest.
Let's get this straight, i fuckin hate them, but they won't accept second best, and one time, not so long ago, neither would we!
Mr Moyes and the other twat have continually told us, this is the best we can expect, they have continually cried poverty. Moyes, the year Duncan left, actually proudly proclaimed, about 5 games to the end of the season, this will be the first time an Everton team, has finnished in the top ten, two years running. That was the day I fell out with him!
Beside the fact we went on to finnish eleventh.
Champions League should be our brief and target for any manager at a club like Everton. Same for Spurs, Arsenal, Villa and the rest of the bigger clubs. I've said it before and I keep saying it, Kenwright has turned us into a small club. He, to his detriment, lowered everyone's expectations. He has taken us backwards: top ten, top six, my fucking arse... That's not success, it's shit!
32 Posted 24/09/2010 at 19:38:44
I am bothered enough to be annoyed when people talk about money being the problem. We are mid-way in the spending league. If it is only money then there is no such thing as a good manager or good team, just the highest bidder.
I am bothered when people accept a defeat, when the Manager considers us underdogs. It is 11v11 and anyone can be beaten with the right tactics and everyone giving 100%
Feeble, excuse laden people bother me. You have only lost when you accept it. If you lose a game then try twice as hard next time. If you lose a tackle then get up and get it back instead of waving your pathetic arms at the referee.
I truly think that years of a Manager who accepts being second tier has infected all the newer fans who can't know much pre-Sky.
We need a Manager with balls and a good tactical head. I don't think Mr Moyes will go any further. I hope I am wrong because our feeble board accept second best as well, so he is going nowhere if it is up to them.
33 Posted 24/09/2010 at 19:37:42
"Going to the game for a 'night-out' and a sing along just isn't the Everton way. Evertonians care much more than that."
Watching Everton for some is being part of the game. We can't play so chanting, singing in support is all we can do to show how we care.... to show passion.
There's always been those who don't, I don't know if that always signifies a lack of passion or not, but your assertion that this just is'nt the Everton way might be true now, but it never used to be.
Such is the light your answer shines.
34 Posted 24/09/2010 at 19:47:15
Jamie @ 28, you summed it up in three lines what I've tried in several posts!
35 Posted 24/09/2010 at 20:02:33
Is right, Charles.
In my original post I had in mind the 'set-piece' nature of the Anfield 'show' which seems artificial to me. I believe that the Goodison crowd is spontaneous, raw and (some might say) reactive.
It's not the younger generation's fault that we haven't had as much to shout about. Evertonian DNA hasn't changed you know. My father and his father were probably very vocal in the stadium when things were going well and quieter during tough/boring times.
Given a run of success the chanting and merriment will return. The passion is ALWAYS there beneath the surface. The worry is that Evertonions are declining in numbers but, again, success would change that.
36 Posted 24/09/2010 at 20:09:51
Every now and again the underdog will win an 11 v 11 - but never over a 38 game season. Every few years you might see a shock cup competition winner like Greece in the Euros. Look at the leagues all around the world. Mates of mine slag off the scottish league because it's a toss between Celtic & Rangers without realising the EPL is the exact same. 5 games in and look at the table. Spain, the exact same. Italy, the exact same. Whether you care to admit it or not - money is the deciding factor and you certainly wont see a 'rich' club battling relegation.
Can a manager bridge the gap? Yes, to a certain extent - hence why Moyes has won the manager of the year on three seperate occasions for 'overacheiving' whilst never actually winning anything.
I am not a 'feeble, excuse laden person' - I just know whats going on in the real world.
37 Posted 24/09/2010 at 20:28:18
Accepting second best will not win a cup either. I understand what you are saying but acceptance of being second tier is completely unnaceptable. What is the point of even going to the match if that is how you think? By the way, it was not a speech, just a view.
Did Alan Ball accept that he was too small to make it?
38 Posted 24/09/2010 at 20:26:26
As I said earlier we're full of excuses.
I know many Everton fans who want to have a 'sing along' but are shouted down and told to sit down by kopite obsessed Evertonians.
Peter Laing, each to their own on WSAG but where's the relevance in it? Trainee articles...again, 'ted' articles, again, ie if any anyone acts in such a such a way they are a 'ted'.
Is it any wonder are fans are so self conscious even to the detriment of our club?
39 Posted 24/09/2010 at 21:07:55
When I make it to Goodison I always come home with a hoarse voice. If someone told me to shut up, believe me, that's the last thing I'd do and they would here about it.
Spare me the sermon and sing up.
40 Posted 24/09/2010 at 20:54:13
By the way, we were shite at times in the seventies , eighties, nineties, etc. But we let Billy Bingham know, and Gordon Lee, we let Howard Kendall know too, Colin Harvey, Walker... Smith ? why not Moyes?
41 Posted 24/09/2010 at 21:19:16
Unfortunately many fans have not got onto this and have attempted to make up excuses for the lack of singing such as the pathetic line 'singing is for kopites'. Therefore the crowd as you rightly say is reactive not proactive.
Attempts to rectify this with Everton by congregating those said fans hit a brickwall as Everton refused to help unlike at many other clubs who value their fans support.
42 Posted 24/09/2010 at 21:33:16
43 Posted 24/09/2010 at 21:39:16
Can any foundations whatsoever be done by Kenwright to rebuild our Empire? No.
So what do we do? Follow in parrott fashion what the media propaganda tells us about 'going with what we've got' in the transfer window, then a wobbly start to the season and jump down the manager's throat.
But don't worry lads we don't protest because that's what kopites do.
No more feeling sorry for ourselves. We get what we deserve.
Fight for nothing you get nothing.
44 Posted 24/09/2010 at 23:45:42
In answer to your question around passion within us, of course it's still there. Unfortunately it?s portrayed as anger and frustration at this current moment.
What an Evertonian is however, is educated when it comes to realism and football knowledge. Yes, we all got excited in the summer, ready for us to be in the top 4 etc, but now we acknowledge the tough task ahead. Something I think everyone at the club fell into the same trap as the fans.
Agreed, it does take the fans a while, at times, to get a head of steam up... but when we do, then not a lot of places can compare. Listen, we are down but not out, now it?s up to the players to all grow a pair and put it right on the pitch with the fans right behind them.
45 Posted 25/09/2010 at 09:23:54
There is a disease amongst modern-day Evertonians, and it is ripping the heart and soul out of the club every bit as much as what Mr Kenwright may or may not be doing in the boardroom.
The public gets what the public wants!!
I have often been called a "Kopite" or a "Geordie" for showing a bit of fire and ambition...apparently Evertonians "don't do that"!!
Well, if this is the way we are supposed to be now, to just accept our lot quietly and be grateful for Davie Moyes, then frankly, i'd rather be a Geordie or a Kopite.
At least they still have a bit of fight left in them, and at least they still have some real pride in their club.
To me, how that manifests itself is irrelevant...they care, and that is more than many of our downtrodden, bricks-for-brains, fans seem to have in them.
Keep fighting the good fight Charles, hopefully one day there will be light.
46 Posted 25/09/2010 at 09:20:37
47 Posted 25/09/2010 at 09:39:46
48 Posted 25/09/2010 at 09:50:05
49 Posted 25/09/2010 at 11:10:30
I was at Ewood Park and when the team was announced I just had that disbelief feeling. His team selections are so often wrong.
And now Fulham away (we lost 8 out of 9), Birmingham away (probably a nil-nil at best), Liverpool home (recent history tells you all you need to know), and Spurs away (a bogey team to say the least). Saha out for another 3 weeks ? Yak nowhere near match fit ? Beckford not Premier standard (as quoted by Paul Merson who is a very respectable pundit in my opinion) and our 4th striker Anichebe now out until December...
I have lost the passion becasue it just doesn't look good. I'm a season ticket holder and I'm glad there is no home game for a while ? it's more of a chore going to the match at the moment than it is an enjoyable optimistic day out. But still COYB!
50 Posted 25/09/2010 at 11:15:29
51 Posted 25/09/2010 at 11:20:16
52 Posted 25/09/2010 at 11:44:30
Give us something to get passionate about and the Old Lady Rocks, like no where else on the Planet.
53 Posted 25/09/2010 at 12:28:53
It's just Everton make it fucking hard sometimes to still believe...
54 Posted 25/09/2010 at 13:33:59
I just fell we have lost something with the absence of Cahill and in particular Neville. You don't suddenly go from being a very good team to a bad one in the click of a finger; although we really miss a goalscorer, these two playing together on a regular basis is a big factor in our current situation.
Yes, Moyes has made some shocking decisions in terms of playing some out of position and seemingly inane tactical decisions, but he has done wonders at the club and, even though I am so pissed at where we are at the moment, I think he needs to be given a few more games before we chase him out of town.
55 Posted 25/09/2010 at 17:14:10
Sorry that statement is absolute crap. Wasn't it just a couple seasons ago he was holding out for a bigger pay check and then admitted he was about to walk because of it? Instead of taking care of the team.
He won't walk and Kenwright won't let him. Seriously if he left us, the only way for him will be down. He isn't good enough for any teams above us. not even remotely. The media have always talked shite and his true abilities are right there for you to see.
Answer me this. What is the point og foing to europe, to go up against a decent team then slaughtered because he failed to put out either a decent team or he bottled it and went with his usual tactics of defend at all costs regardless if we score or not?
No Moyse wont resign because he is in a cushy secure job. So I kenwrong..If Moyse goes then Kenwrong is vulnerable allowing us to get him out. Both of them there protects each other.
Moyse does well with tiny squads that can pick themselves. How the fuck can he for example pick hibbo and osman on the right after the disaster of the cup final?? That should never ever have seen the light of day ever again..but here we go again same old shit.
Moyse knew all about the striker issues and did nothing to rectify it. How naive do you need to be to think a division 1 player is going to be good enough?
Pre season aside which is a big part of it, he continuously makes bizarre decisions regarding tactics, makes changes in subs when its too late.
I think its more than time its time for a big change in the manager's seat. I am sick of us starting like this every season.
Sorry he needs to go back to the championship
56 Posted 25/09/2010 at 17:20:59
57 Posted 25/09/2010 at 19:43:54
It's certainly not helped by our start to the season (one which, combined with years of shit football and mediocrity, means in my book that every game Moyes is in charge of from now on is another game too many).
I don't understand how anyone can want Moyes as manager of our club - completely beyond my comprehension.
I don't think it's "losing passion" to just accept reality - we're a mediocre team who have overachieved to finish top six in the past few years and, realistically, top eight is an astonishing achievement given we spend less net money than pretty much every other team in this league.
That was the one saving grace for Moyes - what he's worked with in terms of money. But Bilyaletinov is such an awful waste of money, combined with desperate gambles on Beckford, weird fringe player purchases like Joao Silva, his obsession with Neville, Osman, Hibbert and co, an unbelievably rigid adherance to 4-5-1 no matter what the scenario and the last minute panic buy of Fellaini, that he's even lost that appeal.
It's just hard to get enthused about Everton when, deep down, you have to admit that you're supporting a pile of shite and you have been since circa 1988.
58 Posted 25/09/2010 at 20:18:00
59 Posted 25/09/2010 at 21:20:51
All of it... he won't do shit. He is in a cushy job, honorable? How could he be honorable if all he cared about was his own pay packet on his new contract? That season he managed to ignore the needs and wants for the team, and, lo and behold, we started just as shite...
No, he won't be going anywhere... Kenwright won't sack him, or his position on the Board would be at risk... Laurel and Hardy are there for a long time.
60 Posted 26/09/2010 at 10:52:14
61 Posted 26/09/2010 at 13:50:48
As would your's if you had spelt manager's correctly. typo's eh?
62 Posted 26/09/2010 at 14:44:20
63 Posted 26/09/2010 at 14:50:32
Is the better chaps??
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